1, 2 games? Until after the January window? Longer?
I'd just like to see what everyone else thinks, because people seem to have different opinions about the situation.
I stated in a recent post, that I'm seriously losing my patience with him, and I am, but, when you look at other factors surround him, it's not that simple.
1) No, he wasn't backed in the summer, however, that squad should be getting better results than it currently is. Will the owners think that he deserves a January transfer window, or will they want to give it to a new guy?
2) We've clueless owners, who are likely to stick with him a lot longer than he warrants, however, are they aware of his arrogance to do things 'his' way, which is costing us games.
3) Even if we did replace Slav, is it likely that another coach will buy into our stats based policy? As it stands, I still think he's trying to prove a point.
Don't think you are going to get a rational opinion whilst the predictable post defeat posts are coming in...yawn.
Quote from: west kowloon white on December 02, 2017, 08:08:35 PM
Don't think you are going to get a rational opinion whilst the predictable post defeat posts are coming in...yawn.
Think the reactions are pretty rational to me. Having been there today and watched the mind boggling display from several of our players and our esteemed coach then his departure can't come soon enough.
He can berate the transfer policy but if you set up a team like that and then throw on Fonte when you need to try and relieve some pressure and create a chance then your time is up.
You get no value in January and this season has gone
A defeat Home to Brum, could be one defeat too many. If we lose to Sunderland and make it three defeats in a row. Then his position will become untenable, assuming he is still here by then. Because I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel except an enormous locomotive coming towards me at a barbaric speed.
I don't think he'll be sacked just before the transfer window as I expect targets have been lined up for him by now. If he was going to be sacked it would have been a few matches ago.
Saying that they may have a new manager lined up already or trying to get one so they may want to get him on board for January
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
It is difficult to see how the current situation can be turned around with Slav.
Everything looks wrong at the moment.
We have good players playing out of position, confused and visibly blaming each other on the pitch.
We need a fresh look, some discipline, a better game plan, better basic tactics.
For me, the owners know they've screwed up in the summer (if they don't, then they're absolute morons basically).
They also know, that Slav only has was he has to work with, until January, so, I can't see them being to trigger happy.
They also know, that Kline has been a big interference, so maybe feel, that Slavisa is also warranted more time.
In Fulham's position, who else is going to want to come to the Club, and work under Tony's stats based policy?
Thinking about it, the Club may well know this season is already a write off, so, the only thing to do, is to continue to back Slav, and put things right this Jan, next summer.
On the flip side..
Slavisa, can not be allowed to carry on how he is, playing players out of position, making odd subs, and being arrogant towards certain players. Regardless, he's here to win games, and get the best out of what he has, and I done feel he's doing that.
As it stands, I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
Anyway, let's see who comes out of this with the bigger set of balls.
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
For me, the owners know they've screwed up in the summer (if they don't, then they're absolute morons basically).
They also know, that Slav only has was he has to work with, until January, so, I can't see them being to trigger happy.
They also know, that Kline has been a big interference, so maybe feel, that Slavisa is also warranted more time.
In Fulham's position, who else is going to want to come to the Club, and work under Tony's stats based policy?
Thinking about it, the Club may well know this season is already a write off, so, the only thing to do, is to continue to back Slav, and put things right this Jan, next summer.
On the flip side..
Slavisa, can not be allowed to carry on how he is, playing players out of position, making odd subs, and being arrogant towards certain players. Regardless, he's here to win games, and get the best out of what he has, and I done feel he's doing that.
As it stands, I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
Anyway, let's see who comes out of this with the bigger set of balls.
You are beginning to sound like me.....ANGRY!!!
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
For me, the owners know they've screwed up in the summer (if they don't, then they're absolute morons basically).
They also know, that Slav only has was he has to work with, until January, so, I can't see them being to trigger happy.
They also know, that Kline has been a big interference, so maybe feel, that Slavisa is also warranted more time.
In Fulham's position, who else is going to want to come to the Club, and work under Tony's stats based policy?
Thinking about it, the Club may well know this season is already a write off, so, the only thing to do, is to continue to back Slav, and put things right this Jan, next summer.
On the flip side..
Slavisa, can not be allowed to carry on how he is, playing players out of position, making odd subs, and being arrogant towards certain players. Regardless, he's here to win games, and get the best out of what he has, and I done feel he's doing that.
As it stands, I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
Anyway, let's see who comes out of this with the bigger set of balls.
Completely agree with you. The season is far from over though. If we are able to turn things around starting with the January window, we still have a (slim) chance at top 6. Is Jokanović the man to do that? I don't think so
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Agree
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
For me, the owners know they've screwed up in the summer (if they don't, then they're absolute morons basically).
They also know, that Slav only has was he has to work with, until January, so, I can't see them being to trigger happy.
They also know, that Kline has been a big interference, so maybe feel, that Slavisa is also warranted more time.
In Fulham's position, who else is going to want to come to the Club, and work under Tony's stats based policy?
Thinking about it, the Club may well know this season is already a write off, so, the only thing to do, is to continue to back Slav, and put things right this Jan, next summer.
On the flip side..
Slavisa, can not be allowed to carry on how he is, playing players out of position, making odd subs, and being arrogant towards certain players. Regardless, he's here to win games, and get the best out of what he has, and I done feel he's doing that.
As it stands, I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
Anyway, let's see who comes out of this with the bigger set of balls.
well said
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Good points. Was his decision making just as questionable last year? I wasn't part of this board last year, but I watched every match.
Kit was sacked when he didn't make the required points total half way through the season, so presumably Slavisa's performance will be being monitored, but you might think that his achievement last season will give him more leeway, plus the problems with injuries and bedding in new players - who may not be ones he would have chosen himself.
BUT owners are ruthless these days, because football is a big money business, and there won't be any room for sentiment if the khans feel that someone else will be more likely to get us up than Slavisa.
But there is also the important aspect of who else to bring in. Would they think they couldn't get anyone better?
We haven't gelled so far this season, but i think this could be near to happening - maybe a couple of new players and a bit of tweaking. To sack the manager would mean starting all over again.
So i think Slavisa is probably safe for the time being- if our results aren't too terrible, which i don't think they will be. We have the quality to turn things round, but we definitely need new players in certains positions - strikers and defenders-as the manager has said himself.
We created the chances to win today, while our defence made calamitous errors - how many times has this happned this season?
Jokanovic's term as manager has been very inconsistent. We've seen the very worst turn to the very best and now once again, turned to the worst.
Why keep a manager for the rest of the season, when realistically, we aren't going to achieve anything. May as well let a new guy analyse the squad for 6 months.
And for all his good, Jokanovic is incredibly naive and has proven to be very argumentative to the board.
It's not like Jol/Magath when you were desperate for them to go, but Jokanovic is showing no signs of improvement, and the players seem to have given up.
If I had a choice between now and the end of the season, I'd choose now.
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Ok, fair enough, but can't you argue that he was handed a ridiculously good team at Watford? I mean, 3 of the best strikers in the division then, that only we could dream of today.
If Slav was that good, then surely he'd be getting the best out of this current bunch, which I don't feel he is, he's very off with team and player selections.
I mean, Johansen as a false no.9?? If you're that hard up, then Graham or Mollo would make more sense.
For me, he got lucky at Watford, but, doesn't have, or carry the traits, of a Warnock type manager, that can work or motivate lesser players.
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 10:30:44 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Ok, fair enough, but can't you argue that he was handed a ridiculously good team at Watford? I mean, 3 of the best strikers in the division then, that only we could dream of today.
If Slav was that good, then surely he'd be getting the best out of this current bunch, which I don't feel he is, he's very off with team and player selections.
I mean, Johansen as a false no.9?? If you're that hard up, then Graham or Mollo would make more sense.
For me, he got lucky at Watford, but, doesn't have, or carry the traits, of a Warnock type manager, that can work or motivate lesser players.
Very true.
You appoint Jokanovic as a short term fix. Much like Pardew and Jose.
Quote from: Matt10 on December 02, 2017, 10:12:54 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Good points. Was his decision making just as questionable last year? I wasn't part of this board last year, but I watched every match.
His decision making wasn't questionable last year, he had a squad of players (not selected by him) that excelled with quite a few performing well above their own individual abilities, but as a team and with the style of play that was adopted were brilliant!! There perhaps is part of the problem, us fans then think well this season the only way is up, but no!!!! We sell 2 of our best players, no need to remind everybody who they were and they were not replaced by players of the same quality while other teams strengthened their squads as they do in the Premier league, natural progression. Our problem this year (in my opinion) is mainly 2 reasons, 1 have already mentioned (poor transfer window) and secondly injuries!! If we had suffered the same number of injuries last season to key players, we would have been a mid table side!
you can have all the crazy subs you want; the lack of motivation, lack of tactics and coaching, and square pegs in round holes etc, but who is there at the club to actually evaluate Slav? To actually analyse his performance? Yes Khan might swoop in once a year and sack a manager, but who analyses Slav week in week out, like for example the players would be?
Is there a football person above him at the club to challenge him and question him on daft decisions which he is CLEARLY making or like a word in his ear to give him regular performance based feedback.
I don't know the structure but does anyone else at the club have the first notion about managing a club or being a head coach, Along with balancing the duties of head coach versus all the hassle of Kline, absent owners, poor Pre season etc.
As woeful a job as he may be doing, and I do believe someone else could come in and do the core simple basics , and start achieving results, there is no one to tell him off, to give him a warning, to give him performance based feedback, and therefore how can you sack someone you have done a p155 poor job at supporting and supplying decent support mechanisms???
Well for me it comes down to whether he still has the dressing room. If yes, then stick with him and this is an overreaction. If no.. then I guess start the timer...
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 10:30:44 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Ok, fair enough, but can't you argue that he was handed a ridiculously good team at Watford? I mean, 3 of the best strikers in the division then, that only we could dream of today.
If Slav was that good, then surely he'd be getting the best out of this current bunch, which I don't feel he is, he's very off with team and player selections.
I mean, Johansen as a false no.9?? If you're that hard up, then Graham or Mollo would make more sense.
For me, he got lucky at Watford, but, doesn't have, or carry the traits, of a Warnock type manager, that can work or motivate lesser players.
He got very lucky at Watford. His arrival coincided with a mega slump in what was previously Division winning form. I remember they arrived at the Cottage having taken something like 9 points from 27 but they tore us apart five nil. The story at the time, as told to us by the journo sitting behind us in The P2 Enclave, was that Abdi and Deeney had a meeting with Club officials where they expressed concerns over not playing the fast flowing football they were used to. Someone will look it up I suspect but didn't they go on to only lose only a handful of points and only get pipped by Bournemouth, by far the best team in the league that year. He was more carried along than the architect. The sign of a good coach is not doing what Joka does. None of our players are improving and the same mistakes keep occurring. A good coach would have rectified that by now and even with decidedly average players a corner should at least carry some sort of threat.
Jokas support network will undoubtedly point me in the direction of the play offs last year. That would be the golden twelve games or so where Cairney and Stefjo consistently played like Premiership players and key individuals stepped up along the way. Even with that though had Wolves and Leeds not completely imploded we would have finished eight.
The comments about relegation not being possible and "there are worse teams than us" is out there again. Would that be the plucky never say die Burton, the robust battling Bolton and our next two opponents?
I would say the glove no longer fits if indeed it ever did.
He has improved Fredericks and Ream significantly and got Aluko and Malone playing the best football of there careers. The Lucas Piazon we got was much better than the Lucas Piazon at Reading and it could be argued that is down to Jokas coaching. He is a good coach and i love the way we play under him. only problem IMO is his stubbornness and sometimes his selections/subs but I feel he is the right man definitely.
Quote from: @jolslover on December 02, 2017, 11:26:55 PM
He has improved Fredericks and Ream significantly and got Aluko and Malone playing the best football of there careers. He is a good coach and i love the way we play under him. only problem IMO is his stubbornness and sometimes his selections/subs but I feel he is the right man definitely.
You're happy being 15th?
You love the fact we've scored about 1 a game bar Sheff Utd?
The football this season has been pitiful.
Until the end of the season I think. I don't know half of what's gone on in the background but a transfer window and time to turn things around is needed. We ain't going up but lets see if Joka and turn it around.
He will be gone if we lose to Birmingham, I'm certain of that.
Quote from: davew on December 02, 2017, 10:33:21 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on December 02, 2017, 10:12:54 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
Good points. Was his decision making just as questionable last year? I wasn't part of this board last year, but I watched every match.
His decision making wasn't questionable last year, he had a squad of players (not selected by him) that excelled with quite a few performing well above their own individual abilities, but as a team and with the style of play that was adopted were brilliant!! There perhaps is part of the problem, us fans then think well this season the only way is up, but no!!!! We sell 2 of our best players, no need to remind everybody who they were and they were not replaced by players of the same quality while other teams strengthened their squads as they do in the Premier league, natural progression. Our problem this year (in my opinion) is mainly 2 reasons, 1 have already mentioned (poor transfer window) and secondly injuries!! If we had suffered the same number of injuries last season to key players, we would have been a mid table side!
This is so key and exactly how I feel. Thanks for putting it into words. I was so sure this year that we would be top of the table. We play a different type of football that absolutely dominated last year - surely noone's figured it out. Until they did, and then we didn't adjust.
Quote from: @jolslover on December 02, 2017, 11:26:55 PM
He has improved Fredericks and Ream significantly and got Aluko and Malone playing the best football of there careers. The Lucas Piazon we got was much better than the Lucas Piazon at Reading and it could be argued that is down to Jokas coaching. He is a good coach and i love the way we play under him. only problem IMO is his stubbornness and sometimes his selections/subs but I feel he is the right man definitely.
Yes and no I suppose. The inconsistencies of all four on that list might indicate the good patches are down to a number of factors like the opposition or the form of the players around them. I think Ream got better as the back line settled in but of late it has been chopped and changed and Kalas slightly off the boil has exposed him a bit. Fredericks can run up and down the wing all day long but the delivery at the end of it is hit and miss and Malone was a bit like that although I did enjoy his obvious enthusiasm and he didn't have the attitude Fred has. Aluko. Now there's a conundrum. Inch perfect to missing the proverbial barn door in the space of a couple of minutes. A good coach picks out the key attributes a player has and fine tunes them so for example Aluko becomes the topic of a phase of play session where he ends up hitting the back of the net nine times out of ten not the other way round. It never happened. Piazon is a fine player and quite possibly a bigger miss than we realise as he was showing there was something about him. I think that is purely instinct and nothing to do with Joka.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on December 02, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
He will be gone if we lose to Birmingham, I'm certain of that.
Who can we get to replace him? He'll get til the end of the season, in my opinion.
Quote from: Wingnut on December 03, 2017, 12:00:30 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on December 02, 2017, 11:39:20 PM
He will be gone if we lose to Birmingham, I'm certain of that.
Who can we get to replace him?
I'm pretty sure there are a few candidates floating around, but, I suspect, the Club hasn't even started looking yet ( Well they won't, if they're not getting rid of him ).
Can you even trust them to get rid of Slav, and even have a replacement lined up, because I don't
His decisions today were poor. His excuses are poor and his reasoning in the after match comments are poor. He had a very poor day at the office and must be held account for them. I am beginning to feel that he blames the players for everything. He says he can't sub every player that gets a yellow card. But Odoi was an accident waiting to happen. It didn't need yet more positional changes other than putting Kevin Mac in the defence for Odoi and bringing on some pace. Taking off Kebano for Fonte was waving the 093.gif.
I said enough last week in other posts about wondering why so many fans genuinly love him as a coach. Almost as a reply our coach sods it up badly today. Depressed and fed up. However much this season has been dreadful in most parts. The club will not invest heavily in January. As such there is no point in changing Coach this season.
I love Joka's style of football and what he's trying to do but he has made some extremely poor decisions lately. Today was a disaster. Johansen as a false 9? Djalo as the only defender on the bench? Not taking off Odoi? Bringing on Fonte? He seems to have lost it.
But what worries me the most is what other choices do we have? I still believe Jokanovic could have gotten us promoted with the right players but I don't think he will ever get them under the current regime. Would anyone better qualified want the job as "head coach" with all the limitations regarding transfers, conflicts at the club, etc.?
Sadly the main problem seems to be at the top and not likely to go away anytime soon.
Won 2 and lost 1 after the Kline's debacle.
You guys can replace him with David Blaine or I heard David Copperfield is also looking for a gig to revive his career.
I think you will find it's won 2 lost 2
We lost at Wolves.
But it's not just about the last four matches.
Or yesterday even, it goes deeper that that to have caused this discontent .
Since the start of the season and even before then, has been a let down, and not just Joks fault of course, but what happens on the field of play, is his responsibility.
Yeah, I agreed in my post a few months ago that his head is on the chopping block by earliest end of October.
I don't see the owner firing him though, he was signed for the long term and it is going to take a lot to fire him at this moment.
Probably if we are fighting relegation then yeah, I won't defend him :)
We are quite clearly not playing well, and it's very frustrating for me to watch.
However, last year's performances were sublime, and our expectations have been high for this, and understandably so. But none of know how badly the Kline debacle may have affected everyone at the club. Just because he is no longer here, doesn't mean that all is right at the club already. It'll take a while for things to settle down again.
Let's see what happens in the January window. Slav may have a long shopping list ready, and most, if not all, of them may have been on the previous two lists. As precarious as our position is becoming, he needs to be given the January window; Khan needs to try his hardest to get the players that Slav has identified, and then see what happens. At least Slav can be held directly responsible if it all goes pear-shaped with 'his' team.
There is no point in appointing a new manager (I like the old term), before then, and certainly not if Khan's wallet stays slammed shut. Motivator or not, a new manager may be, be we don't have anyone to score goals. Until we have one of those, you can motivate all you want.
If we lose to birmingham and then sack Slavisa where the hell would that leave us then ? Some of you lot just love having ago dont you. Good debate is fine ,but when it comes down this constant "I told you so " posting then its just pure annoying. This opinion has nothing to do with blind love for Jokanovic or any other coach.
The bottom line is that he has no faith in Djaeo and very little in Kamara, players clearly recruited by others in the club., which is why they werent the obvious substitutions yeserday.If we had won yesterday ,and we were well on way until letting in surely the softest goal of the season ( a goalkeeping error?),we would have won three on the bounce!
Yesterday was hugely frustrating for us all but if we are going to moan like this after every defeat then at least come with some positivity when we win ,because otherwise Iam definitely going to skip these threads in future as they are very predictable.
Quote from: colinwhite on December 03, 2017, 07:37:10 AM
If we lose to birmingham and then sack Slavisa where the hell would that leave us then ? Some of you lot just love having ago dont you. Good debate is fine ,but when it comes down this constant "I told you so " posting then its just pure annoying. This opinion has nothing to do with blind love for Jokanovic or any other coach.
The bottom line is that he has no faith in Djaeo and very little in Kamara, players clearly recruited by others in the club., which is why they werent the obvious substitutions yeserday.If we had won yesterday ,and we were well on way until letting in surely the softest goal of the season ( a goalkeeping error?),we would have won three on the bounce!
Yesterday was hugely frustrating for us all but if we are going to moan like this after every defeat then at least come with some positivity when we win ,because otherwise Iam definitely going to skip these threads in future as they are very predictable.
Does he also have no faith in Soares and Madl either ? Both could have done a job for us yesterday , where were they ?
Quote from: colinwhite on December 03, 2017, 07:37:10 AM
If we lose to birmingham and then sack Slavisa where the hell would that leave us then ? Some of you lot just love having ago dont you. Good debate is fine ,but when it comes down this constant "I told you so " posting then its just pure annoying. This opinion has nothing to do with blind love for Jokanovic or any other coach.
The bottom line is that he has no faith in Djaeo and very little in Kamara, players clearly recruited by others in the club., which is why they werent the obvious substitutions yeserday.If we had won yesterday ,and we were well on way until letting in surely the softest goal of the season ( a goalkeeping error?),we would have won three on the bounce!
Yesterday was hugely frustrating for us all but if we are going to moan like this after every defeat then at least come with some positivity when we win ,because otherwise Iam definitely going to skip these threads in future as they are very predictable.
Couldn't have been said better. To quote Slav, "...but after the battle all the generals are clever and have different opinions."
Have to agree with much said here.
Odoi should have been substituted after he was giving a long verbal warning by the ref when already on a yellow.
Playing a "false 9" was a complete failure - it meant that we simply never had a target man in the penalty box and we lack height and strength.
The team looked like statues for much of the match - how many times was a Fulham player left dawdling on the ball with nobody to pass to due to a lack of movement off the ball?
Button's play out of the box continues to leave everyone's hearts in their mouths - the coach says "Don't blame Button, blame me". OK - I do. Now what?
And Fonte was a spectator. Bringing him on had the net effect of reducing us to 9 players on the pitch.
But none of that means I want Slav to be sacked. The manager's a good manager. The players are good players. Football's a game of inches - if Cairney's shot that hit the corner of the crossbar had gone in for 2-2 then we'd be having a different discussion.
He is not helping the club at all at the moment.
He's exiled players like Soares, Mollo and Graham before they've even had a proper look in, because they were Kline signings.
His favouritism to certain players, like Johansen and Ayite, is ridiculous. Both have had awful seasons, but yet, he will go to stupid lengths to fit them in.
His football is far too predictable. If you took notes from the Norwich game, you'd be able to defend against us for the rest of the season.
We're 15th and nearly at the half way stage. 9 points off the playoffs. We will achieve nothing this season. Why keep a manger who is failing at his job? If we had finished 7th last season, he would've gone already.
SJ is a real professional and takes pride in his work. He has not over estimated his ability or under estimated it. He has a good coaching team who are committed to the idea that good football methodology will always thrive provided you recruit and retain those players who can enjoy playing the game the way it is meant to be played. Fulham's owners do not deserve his loyalty but they are stuck with him. If Khan Snr never did intend to back him to the hilt or doesn't intend to back him to the hilt now then he should sack him now, today, and find someone who likes playing tiddlywinks with a stats machine.
As I said before the season began selling Malone was madness, and adding Aluko to the list of the outgoing confirmed the presence of insanity in Fulham's hierarchy. As a supporter I have already expressed very clearly where I believe the problems lie and sacking SJ will simply be the final nail in the coffin. I want the Khan's to commit or get the hell out of Craven Cottage before ever more serious and irreparable damage is done to the football club I love.
And if this forum truly wants SJ out, then I will consider it to be an very unfriendly place for true FFC supporters.
So anyone that wants Slava out and doesn't agree with your opinion isn't a true Fulham fan? :023:
My answer to the OP question. First or second international break of next season.
Why? 051 tends to stick with his coaches. I think he will give Joka the rest of this season to lay foundation for a summer window. Bring in players in summer that Joka wants, have a another preseason & look to see if we are in contention come next October
If I'm right. The rest of this season is treading water, experimenting & top 10 finish at best
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and not one opinion is greater than another.
Slav should stay ONLY if the board will back him and he is allowed to bring in players he wants.....
How many times have the FST and all ST holders (including myself) bought into the "we will do anything to get the club promoted" and nothing happens!
It's the Khans that should go before Joka does.
At least we have seen some decent football under Joka -
Guessing most of you wont be happy until Joka goes and we get another Magath in....
:Haynes The Maestro: :Haynes The Maestro:
That's the thing David. Slav needs backed. Continuing with the status quo does no one any good. After a performance like today, someone somewhere needs to give him an almighty kick up the rear end. whenever a Button error costs us, Slav should get the blame, and not just a grown on social media.
Someone at the club needs to have the balls to tell him his shortcomings. What is the point in staying in a job where you don't get feedback, don't improve, don't get told off (assumption )
The stick effect is a way of backing him. Constructive feedback to improve for future, instead of after nearly 2 years being unable to get players to run and create space off the ball.
If you look at what's gone on, I don't think it's possible to sack Slav. For all of Khans billions and business success, he can't identify a struggling manager and put support/ review in place for him. Sacking him as one football man amongst a heap of American egg chasing hierarchy screams that no one has a clue what they are doing.
Investment will only get you so far, his main job is a head coach, where he is paid to motivate, inspire, coach , challenge and invariably improve the tools he has got. polishing one tool can make a toolbox shine. For example, if Madl, out of the team, had been spending his time intensively coached by the management of positioning , man marking and whatever else, what says he couldn't be improved to take the place of CB cover to keep Odoi at LB and Sess a permanent winger
There is far too many players stagnating at the club, whether it's the ex youth in Cauley, or Betts, current youth like Humphrys, Williams, or the likes of Madl, Ayite, Mollo stagnating or regressing.
Quote from: David I on December 03, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and not one opinion is greater than another.
Slav should stay ONLY if the board will back him and he is allowed to bring in players he wants.....
How many times have the FST and all ST holders (including myself) bought into the "we will do anything to get the club promoted" and nothing happens!
It's the Khans that should go before Joka does.
At least we have seen some decent football under Joka -
Guessing most of you wont be happy until Joka goes and we get another Magath in....
:Haynes The Maestro: :Haynes The Maestro:
The Khans have provided the club with a ground and training ground expansion. Provided the funds to sign Fonte and Kamara for £15m. Put Cairney, Sessegnon and all our promising youngsters on new contracts. The club is financially stable, which is a something not all clubs can dictate.
The Khans don't play Sess at LB, Johansen at ST, make Button play football that he is not capable of.
The squad isn't perfect, but is significantly better than 15th. Jokanovic is to blame.
It is time to look for a replacement coach
Slavisa was totally to blame for Odoi sending off, he should have subbed him at half time it was obvious.
His tactics are often useless, his substitutions appalling at times, he plays really good players out of position and his body language and verbal skills are lacking. The play offs were really badly handled.Chris Martin...poor, in all areas he is lacking. He was just lucky at Watford.
We have a good squad, some excellent players, and enough skill to do far better than this. He has a limited time left, Xmas we need to decide. I suggest those Lincoln Brothers come and fast.
Quote from: clarkey on December 03, 2017, 10:27:08 AM
Slavisa was totally to blame for Odoi sending off, he should have subbed him at half time it was obvious
Sorry, but the only person we can blame is Odoi himself.
This constant excuse for those who see the Coach as wonderful who can do no wrong is to blame everybody else. Blame the owner, the transfers, the fans that don't idolise Joka. It is simply ridiculous. However much fans support him a little honesty wouldn't go a miss. Our Coach has made some awful errors this season. He insists on sticking to a system that puts under pressure every time our keeper has the ball. He seems to feel it is better to play a hat-trick hero at full back because it means he can put the other full back at centre half. He puts in totally unsuitable players in as a false number 9.
It doesn't mean we should forget about the second half of last season. Or our failure to bring in the spine to the side many of his supporters argued with me about last season. But please admit to yourselves he has had a poor season on the sidelines whatever the injury, poor players or poor owner have done.
Quote from: clarkey on December 03, 2017, 10:27:08 AM
It is time to look for a replacement coach
Slavisa was totally to blame for Odoi sending off, he should have subbed him at half time it was obvious.
His tactics are often useless, his substitutions appalling at times, he plays really good players out of position and his body language and verbal skills are lacking. The play offs were really badly handled.Chris Martin...poor, in all areas he is lacking. He was just lucky at Watford.
We have a good squad, some excellent players, and enough skill to do far better than this. He has a limited time left, Xmas we need to decide. I suggest those Lincoln Brothers come and fast.
It's time to look for a replacement Director of Football Operations. However, I very much doubt that Tony Khan will have the insight or humility to realise that he is out of his depth and that he is not the right man for the job. There are other things he could do within the club setup.
There has been a lot of sense talked on this thread, and even the less considered rants are understandable after the dog's breakfast of yesterday.
As a coach I like SJ, he has done some great work with several of our players past and present who seem to me to have improved under his leadership. And of course the style of play he aspires to is potentially a great plus. But yesterday illustrated to me his failings, even if he had held his hands up afterwards I could have sympathised, but no.
As owners we could have worse than the Khan's, there have been plenty of examples across all the divisions. But it is difficult to really get behind them. They are strangely absent, uncommunicative and have failed to invest in players (although Mostspur Park shows they will invest in infrastructure).
Board power struggles and rank bad decision making has been inexcusable. And the summer was a disaster, from transfers to pre season planning/ player fitness.
Personally I would prefer SJ to stay, the Khan's to get behind transfer strategy with real cash and the Board to settle down and do their jobs effectively but.... 079.gif
In practice I tend to agree with those who say he should be given the season, BUT if we fail to invest in January then he would need until one of the international breaks next year after summer transfers. However I think he might resign before then if he isn't backed in the January window.Let's not forget it isn't just whether he will be sacked or not but whether he will choose to stay!
Quote from: Statto on December 03, 2017, 10:44:02 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 03, 2017, 10:31:53 AM
This constant excuse for those who see the Coach as wonderful who can do no wrong is to blame everybody else. Blame the owner, the transfers, the fans that don't idolise Joka. It is simply ridiculous. However much fans support him a little honesty wouldn't go a miss. Our Coach has made some awful errors this season.
Sorry but a little honesty from you wouldn't go amiss. Nobody on this thread has said Jokanovic isn't culpable at all.
Everyone agrees our current situation is a consequence of various failings, some by Jokanovic (such as those you mention) and some from senior management (such as selling key players, poor signings, the Kline affair).
Some posters will come to the perfectly reasonable conclusion that the blame is 60:40 down to senior management and it follows logically that they should be sacked/reformed first (particularly when the context of all this is relegation and 3 yrs of general sh1te and lies from those individuals before Jokanovic even got here).
I think this post says it all. Everybody else is now MOSTLY to blame for our problems. The reasonable argument and the only logical conclusion is they should all go before the coach. Well we have had the debate on another thread. For him to be successful it would mean that we have exactly the players in form and the players to fit his system. As we know he will not change his system however unsuited it is to the players we actually have.
So in the cold light of day I wonder what the mood at Motspur Park is this morning. With so many of his squad being 'outed' as not his choice or not in his plans and then his openness about needing players all over the pitch my motivation would be rock bottom even if I was part of the chosen few. There are numerous management tools for motivation and team bonding and Joka is not showing any of them.
I actually wonder, its a wondering sort of morning, how many key players are looking at January as a way out?
Some will blame Jokanovic, some the board, some the players, injuries etc. Each one of them is probably a part of the problem.
In my opinion (and each of us is entitled to have an opinion and we are all entitled to disagree with each other) there isn't too much wrong with the team which wouldn't be put right with a proper no. 9, a solid centre half and a competent goalkeeper.
Whether we get those positions sorted out in January is, to my mind, the key to the rest of this season and next.
The way he has treated some players like the banashing to the Under 23 set up obviously upsets not just them players but others,they must wonder when it will happen to them.
He obviously hasn't got the backing of all the players,I heard that in training before the Wolves game certain players voiced their opinion that we needed to approach the game up there differently because of the way Wolves play.
Apparently started ranting its my way or no other(to which he is entitled as he is the boss).
Since then certain players have felt his wrath for mouthing their opinions, one I was told was Stefan,the excuse that he was sick in the morning was rubbish,he was dropped.
I don't believe its a happy camp at all,everyone has an opinion,what I heard and have written might be total hogwash, but the person who told me is genuine guy,so I'm tending to believe it.
I think that Joconavic probably had some sort of input into all recent transfers, it is unbelievable that the club would spend millions on players without a word with the coach.
If Jocanovic said anything at all in favour of signing Fonte then he should do the honourable thing tomorrow and walk.
Quote from: Statto on December 03, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 03, 2017, 11:08:36 AM
The reasonable argument and the only logical conclusion is they should all go before the coach.
Another disingenuous and distortive post. I never said that's the only reasonable/logical position.
Different people will apportion blame differently. It's a subjective, ambiguous matter and it's totally debatable who is most to blame.
My issue with your original post is, you cannot call people "ridiculous", or claim they're glossing over Jokanovic's failings, just because they happen to think even more blame lies with senior management than with the coach.
As you know I didn't make that comment to those fans who think more blame lies elsewhere. I made it towards all those who think our Coach can do now wrong and have stated as much by being petty and pedantic and having to lie about the arguments. Not for the first time.
I asked this guy, Fred, who I employ, to build me a car and I made a list of the things he said he'd need and I passed it on to my mate to go out and buy. Now me and my mate know nothing about cars but we purchased the things Fred said he needed – like four steering wheels and a tyre – and on Saturday afternoon he showed us what he had built. You know what? It couldn't bleedin' move, not one single inch. It was diaboilical watching him moving the steering wheels around to prove it made no bleedin' difference. Well Fred has gotta go, that's what me and my mate and a whole lot of other disappointed people think. It's disgusting how Fred has let everybody down and he is going to pay for it.
Just another way of stating the bleedin' obvious, perhaps.
I would add something else to the needs and wants list. The wise words of Brentford manager Dean Smith "we knew if we pressed Fulham high they would make mistakes" will be echoed at training grounds across the league as the fixtures come thick and fast over Christmas. I wonder if Joka has a cunning counter plan now or will we remain so predictable, naïve and ineffective?
I totally appreciate Smith is talking as the winning manager but his positivity and the use of 'we', as in team, was a stark contrast to the repeated lines of we didn't do this, we failed at that and so on.
I agree you cannot substitute every player on a yellow card but a player who is so obviously losing it and apparently injured does require some thought. Personally I would be throwing the book at Odoi injury or not.
It's painful to see how often slav makes the mistake of putting sess at left back.
Quote from: SuperFulham323 on December 03, 2017, 03:40:47 PM
It's painful to see how often slav makes the mistake of putting sess at left back.
This is my one annoyance. I want to see Sess further up because he has scored a hat-trick from that position. That's simply the logic I follow.
Regarding everything else, it's just convenience to the big loss we had yesterday. I doubt these threads would be popping up if we had continued the theme we had in the first half of bossing the game and dictating the tempo - then winning to make a 3 match win streak.
An argument to not subbing out Denis. Well, for one, Denis has literally no discipline concerns this season: https://www.whoscored.com/Players/68335/Show/Denis-Odoi and for two, we have no idea if TC told Slav not to sub him, or Slav knows his player and...just like us...were surprised that he would go in and get sent off not 5 minutes after being warned.
The False-9 worked in the first half, but once we were losing, it should have changed to 4-3-3 and especially once we went down to 10-men. The only part that needed some extra attention is that the scenario at hand was down to 10-men and losing by a goal. I can understand the comments needing to put in a defender, and I tend to agree, but at the same time...we were down a goal. Putting in Fonte was not popular, and especially because it was taking out Kebano, who was most likely the MOTM. I would have liked to see AK and Graham, but not staggered subs, instead I'd prefer all at once. There needed to be a surge of intent to go after the equalizer, and I think that would have been a bit more positively received.
That 3rd goal was just a dagger, especially after TC hitting the bar. Before that we had our chances, but a combination of poor touches from Sess, and us not doing anything with the free kicks, except to pass it off quickly, we just didn't support the idea of getting back into this one.
I know it's conversation of whether Slav should go or not, but regardless we can't control that, so I think these areas, to me, are what should be priority for the next match:
- Sess playing up front
- No more False-9
- CF role defined: AK over Fonte. Noone knows what the role of a CF/ST is in Slav's gameplan, until after the match. The CF/ST, from review of our matches this year, seems to be more prone to having their back to goal versus crossing routes with the wingers, so in this case AK would be my choice. Fonte should come in for winger role so he can face forward, and hopefully take a shot or two for once.
- Find a place for Kebano if Sess is on LW...
- Figure out how to get TC, McDonald, Johansen and Norwood on at the same time. Brentford had no answer with their build up, which is why they, rightfully, pushed on counter attacks and down the sides.
Can see people singing this before the end of the year,
"Hit the road Slav, and don't you come back, no more, no more, no more, no more,
Hit the road Slav and don't you come back no more"
😚😉
Quote from: Riversider on December 03, 2017, 05:00:28 PM
Can see people singing this before the end of the year,
"Hit the road Slav, and don't you come back, no more, no more, no more, no more,
Hit the road Slav and don't you come back no more"
😚😉
to what tune though?
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 03, 2017, 10:21:40 AM
Quote from: David I on December 03, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and not one opinion is greater than another.
Slav should stay ONLY if the board will back him and he is allowed to bring in players he wants.....
How many times have the FST and all ST holders (including myself) bought into the "we will do anything to get the club promoted" and nothing happens!
It's the Khans that should go before Joka does.
At least we have seen some decent football under Joka -
Guessing most of you wont be happy until Joka goes and we get another Magath in....
:Haynes The Maestro: :Haynes The Maestro:
The Khans have provided the club with a ground and training ground expansion. Provided the funds to sign Fonte and Kamara for £15m. Put Cairney, Sessegnon and all our promising youngsters on new contracts. The club is financially stable, which is a something not all clubs can dictate.
The Khans don't play Sess at LB, Johansen at ST, make Button play football that he is not capable of.
The squad isn't perfect, but is significantly better than 15th. Jokanovic is to blame.
Agree to an extent, Sess is best when LW rather than LB. However, if there is only Odoi suitable to play LB, but Jok wants Odoi in the centre we struggle because of the depth of the squad.
The only fault I can find with Joka was playing Johanssen as a false forward. Guessing that was down to squad availability.
People's expectations were/are high as we finished last year with some great performances. The main issue was not strengthening the squad and losing Malone and Aluko. They both had there faults, Aluko scoring fewer than he should BUT his speed and ball control drew players away freeing up others that could hit a barn door.
I still think Joka can turn this around but ONLY if he has the players he wants... Given those players, if he fails then yes.. Move him on. But let him have his players.
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 08:07:34 PM
End of season I'd say.
He has to be given another full transfer window, after the disaster of the last one, with a decent net spend this time. He also has to be given time for the dust to settle on recent (and likely pending) board-level changes.
He should be given some major leeway based on last season. He has demonstrated that he can get us into the top 6, so unless we are getting someone with a solid gold Championship track record, there's more logical justification for believing Jokanovic will turn things around than there is for thinking a new manager will get us up.
In any case, we're now at the point where no incoming manager will be able to get us promoted until next season, so what's the point in moving sooner?
This, our season is over, we hopefully won't go down and we certainly we won't go up, Give Jokanovic until the end of the season and back him in January, lets see how we do once he's signed a three or four players he actually wants, changing the manager now would be pointless, we have nothing to play for other than pride.
Quote from: David I on December 03, 2017, 07:15:56 PM
Agree to an extent, Sess is best when LW rather than LB. However, if there is only Odoi suitable to play LB, but Jok wants Odoi in the centre we struggle because of the depth of the squad.
The only fault I can find with Joka was playing Johanssen as a false forward. Guessing that was down to squad availability.
People's expectations were/are high as we finished last year with some great performances. The main issue was not strengthening the squad and losing Malone and Aluko. They both had there faults, Aluko scoring fewer than he should BUT his speed and ball control drew players away freeing up others that could hit a barn door.
I still think Joka can turn this around but ONLY if he has the players he wants... Given those players, if he fails then yes.. Move him on. But let him have his players.
An analysis I concur with wholeheartedly. We lack cover in key areas because we did not follow logic in the transfer market both last January and in the summer. You keep your best players until you find better and even then you may consider giving them extra money to stay behind and help the cause from the bench. Most players want to and will play for a successful club but many players struggle to find their way in a club struggling to show consistent good form.
Net spend while having a logic to it is not just the holy grail that everyone thinks it is. Otherwise it would all be so simple for clubs. Its not what you spend, its what you spend it on.
Some of the best players we ever had cost nothing, and some of the worst we spent lots on.
Lets look at top 5 net spend teams in Championship using Transfermarket figures *Other sites are available
Team-----Net spend Position------Lge position
Wolves-----------1---------------------1
Sheff Wed-------2----------------------12
Reading----------3---------------------14
Birmingham------4---------------------22
Boro---------------5---------------------9
With regards him staying or going. IF you think he should have January(to bring in his own) then really you think he should be here next season.
Otherwise you are once again allowing a manger to again bring in players he wants only to leave in the summer and the next man to pick up players who have only been there 6 months a run with them.
Personally I'd want to know does he want to be here next season no matter what. If he ums and ahhs then goodbye and go now. Let us get someone in for January and we can build for next season.
I want him to stay as we have seen what he can produce. Yes I was upset with him on Saturday which I put personally all down to him. But I still have faith in him to get it right, and secondly I want him to get it right.
If we think our season is over already then we are really in deep trouble and the Khans had better be selling up or else.
Better to consider using this transfer window like no other and start building a team that our coaches seriously can work with. Even if we cannot make a play off spot at least we can look good going into 2018/9. I still believe we need a very charismatic and talented Director of Football who is not related to the owner nor inclined to nepotism, someone SJ can get on with really well.
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
I'm still pro Slav, but blimey my tolerance of his ineptitude to figure out how to influence a game (positively) is at an end. For all his blather about individual performances, lack of squad depth and lack of quality in general, he really needs to put eyes on himself as a tactician and a manager. My biggest cripe this week was the lack of change for Odoi, I think anyone watching was calling for it yet post match, he blames the player and says his hands were tied due to lack of quality. Its clear a lot of players weren't his choice, Mollo, Djalo and Graham come to mind but hes managed them awfully when you read the snide comments about them. They all get paid a decent whack to be at the club, the least he can do is use them to at least show us that they aren't good enough. I mean, who knows, maybe a few could of turned out ok and helped us out a bit.
I think he'll get January transfer window and then 6weeks after. If we are still where we are.... gone on Valentine's Day.
Its far more important that we keep Jokanovic than it is that we keep the Khan's.
Who on the board actually knows when to sack or who to look to next? This is always my worry. Other clubs with owners who are British or have been in charge of football clubs here for many years know when to act and who the next hiring should be. I don't believe we do. With Kit he was probably sacked too late and then we had no plan in place so that season was then a write off. Hate being negative but I don't see us getting out of this league for a very long time. I this season is a write off unless we were to change manager asap, would still need a monumental shift. Not impossible though.
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season. The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender. Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have. Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.
™Tosh when I say draw a line under it I am talking about playing some of the players who he may not have wanted originally. Maybe they are completely crap,but I seem to think there is an underlying agenda.Just my opinion obviously.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season. The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender. Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have. Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.
We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season. The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender. Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have. Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.
We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.
Name a better manager than Jokanovic that will come to Fulham, I'll wait. Our current league position is a credit to Slav given our last two transfer windows, we have a poor squad and we need to make a number of signings in key areas, I just hope that Slav gets a few players he actually wants this January.
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season. The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender. Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have. Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.
We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.
Name a better manager than Jokanovic that will come to Fulham, I'll wait. Our current league position is a credit to Slav given our last two transfer windows, we have a poor squad and we need to make a number of signings in key areas, I just hope that Slav gets a few players he actually wants this January.
You can't honestly say being 15th is a credit to a fulham manager.....jesus. I'm pro Slav but that comment is ridiculous.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water - this is the same manager who got Watford promoted from this very division and took us from 21st to top 6 in his first full season. You don't become a bad a manager overnight.
He just needs backing with the right player recruitment in January (players he actually says we need rather than told "we're buying and that's that") and then we can judge him fairly in the summer, rather than knee jerk him out for struggling with the mismatched tools he's been left with after selling players he said he wanted to keep. If we got rid of him now for other's recruitment mistakes then he is paying for others shortcomings.
He can see what our team needs (in interviews he has mentioned the need for better options at CB, needing a better striker, bemoaning the insufficient replacing of Malone at LB) so get him what he wants in Jan and then judge him fairly at the end of the season.
@mrmicawbers
I do get your point but it is hearsay connected with Kline's toxic departure from Motspur Park. My own opinion is I do not believe SJ would deliberately isolate a player just to make a point simply because he has a team of coaches and they all seem to get on very well with the players. I believe some of the players would have been good signings if we had an injury free core side (i.e. still with Aluko and Malone and a decent Martin replacement) but not as match starters which is what was actually needed in several key positions.
I believe SJ will not play a side he considers is not fit for purpose and on Saturday he said he played a side he thought could/should win the game. The first half bore him out but the second half was a nightmare and that begs the question as to what went on at halftime.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2017, 12:11:44 PM
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season. The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender. Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have. Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.
We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.
Name a better manager than Jokanovic that will come to Fulham, I'll wait. Our current league position is a credit to Slav given our last two transfer windows, we have a poor squad and we need to make a number of signings in key areas, I just hope that Slav gets a few players he actually wants this January.
You can't honestly say being 15th is a credit to a fulham manager.....jesus. I'm pro Slav but that comment is ridiculous.
Given the goings on at the club and the shoddy recruitment over the summer I think he's doing remarkably well to keep us out of the relegation places. Every team in the division improved over the summer where as we went backwards, he's doing a good job.
Now name a manager better than Jokanovic that would come to Fulham.
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2017, 12:11:44 PM
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season. The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender. Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have. Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.
We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.
Name a better manager than Jokanovic that will come to Fulham, I'll wait. Our current league position is a credit to Slav given our last two transfer windows, we have a poor squad and we need to make a number of signings in key areas, I just hope that Slav gets a few players he actually wants this January.
You can't honestly say being 15th is a credit to a fulham manager.....jesus. I'm pro Slav but that comment is ridiculous.
Given the goings on at the club and the shoddy recruitment over the summer I think he's doing remarkably well to keep us out of the relegation places. Every team in the division improved over the summer where as we went backwards, he's doing a good job.
Now name a manager better than Jokanovic that would come to Fulham.
Sorry but I completely disagree with you. I clearly stated i'm pro Slav, so I don't need to answer your question. I'm content with him at the helm but we, as a club from top down need to improve. I wouldn't say every club above us improved really. Ipswich being a prime example. We well over achieved last year and with poor recruitment we should be about mid table, (I predicted 9th) and that would be fair/doign a good job. Being 15th with our team/squad is not good enough and 100% not a job well done by Slav.
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
I actually think our squad isn't balanced at all and Slav even says so in recent interviews. Lack of quality in goal/defense/up top and quality starters in those positions too is our weakness.
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
I think SJ would be the first to admit that 15th is not a job well done, by him or anyone else employed with Fulham FC. Apportioning blame is a discussion topic but is not going to help in getting the team up the table. That is a job for all those employed to make the Club successful and I hope they are all working hard to inwardly digest and deal with the supporter criticism of the poor second half showing on Saturday, not least because a divided club is much easier to beat than a united one.
The blame game goes nowhere unless it actually focuses on the true problems behind our failure to use last season's successes (which, I thoroughly disagree was an over achievement) as a rocket thrust from the off this time. Complacency within the management/recruitment/retention team certainly played its role in the preseason disasters and in not dealing with key injury cover before the season began. People can blame SJ all they want if they honestly believe it but my message to them would be that it can be one hell of a lot worse than this if he goes and recruitment follows the same path of the last several years. Conversely if both SJ and the recruitment team were driven out completely and revamped comprehensively then in a couple of seasons time we could be challenging again. My bet is that a decent January window can achieve a shot at promotion provided we win at least three of the five games remaining this year. We just have to ensure that the Kline Saga positively influences the way we do business in future.
We can all blame someone, whether it's the manager, injuries, the board or the players. I don't actually think there's much wrong with the squad that a proper no. 9, a tall commanding centre half and a decent reliable keeper wouldn't put right.
Almost every fan has been crying out for those three positions to be filled for the last couple of seasons. Martin was, for all his problems off the field, a proper no.9. Our centre half position has never been right since Hangerland got cheesed off.
The sale of Stockdale was a shocker.
Given what we've got and the lack of form of Button and the injury to Ream makes the lack of playing time of Bettinelli and Madl inexplicable.
I'm generally a supporter of Jokanovic but things need to improve quickly if the crowd isn't going to turn against him.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
This team is a mid-table side at best, it doesn't have a decent striker and the defence is appalling.
There are far less successful/well known coaches managing 'weaker teams' without having 'star' players
who are doing much better than us because they are highly motivated, play as a team and regularly play to their utmost potential.
Bristol City and Sheffield Utd spring to mind.
They couldn't be closer knit units if they had a 30' bed that they all slept in.
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
agreed. If it werent for injuries and loss of key players last sumer, replaced by lesser players we would be in an entirely different place. We're not, but I don't see that as Slavisa's fault - I see it as club hierachy politics interfering where they shouldn't.
Last season we improved from January. Relegation being threatened aside I fully expect Slavisa to be given until half way through next season at least to kick us into gear. Everyone can acknowledge this season is frustrating and isn't going to plan, but there are clear transfer related reasons for that. Slav needs to be backed fully by Shahid Khan in January and enabled to do his job properly and to see where that gets us this season and then, personally I think he should also be given the summer to do transfers next year depending on what position we find ourselves in.
Quote from: General on December 04, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
agreed. If it werent for injuries and loss of key players last sumer, replaced by lesser players we would be in an entirely different place. We're not, but I don't see that as Slavisa's fault - I see it as club hierachy politics interfering where they shouldn't.
Last season we improved from January. Relegation being threatened aside I fully expect Slavisa to be given until half way through next season at least to kick us into gear. Everyone can acknowledge this season is frustrating and isn't going to plan, but there are clear transfer related reasons for that. Slav needs to be backed fully by Shahid Khan in January and enabled to do his job properly and to see where that gets us this season and then, personally I think he should also be given the summer to do transfers next year depending on what position we find ourselves in.
This. Exactly this, he's our best option of getting promoted, all he needs from us is support, and from the owners he needs some good players!
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on December 04, 2017, 02:19:20 PM
There are far less successful/well known coaches managing 'weaker teams' without having 'star' players
who are doing much better than us because they are highly motivated, play as a team and regularly play to their utmost potential.
Bristol City and Sheffield Utd spring to mind.
They couldn't be closer knit units if they had a 30' bed that they all slept in.
You are right inasmuch as those teams may not have "star players" or be as talented as some of our individuals, but one thing those teams have is a good balance.
Sadly our team clearly doesn't since we lost some key players in the summer / did not sign a good no. 9 / good replacement LB / another solid CB as identified by SJ as key posts to fill.
The teams mentioned above are full of players that fit the managers' system, whereas some of ours clearly do not at present. SJ has a clear way he wants to play - i'm sure, given the reported amount of time SK spent in recruiting him, the club were fully aware of this before we hired him and selected him partly because of this.
If that's the case, then the club also needs to support him by buying players he actually wants and fits his system otherwise what's the point? I'm not saying the club hasn't previously tried to support SJ in this area before, but I am saying i'd like to see him have more involvement (in conjunction with stats / scouting etc.) in who we sign so he can be held accountable for those decisions and judged fairly instead of the strange situation we have now.
Football is a team game, and basically a simple game.
You don't need fashionable systems, the main thing is to score more goals than the other team in a game, and it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's within the laws.
This is maybe especially true in the Championship, compared to the Prem- it is a harsh, unforgiving struggle over a long season, where there isn't much difference between the teams.
You don't necessarily need foreign coaches or players to succeed in this division.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
Sorry but that team proves the point that we do not have a balanced or strong enough squad. Fortunately it would be possible to do better. Play Betts in goal because Button's confidence has taken a knock. Move Odoi to LB because that is his natural position and also because we have seen nothing to suggest Soares should start. Play Madl as CB until Ream is fit because Madl is proveni n this division. Do not select Fonte because.........well it's bleedin obvious. Do select Cairney who just happens to be our captain and best player. Seriously what on earth were you thinking about when you proposed that side as proof that we shoud be doing well?
By the way I am fed up with hearing that Joka's tactics have been "found out", this is really lazy thinking. Like, all the managers in the Champ slumbered through last season but finally woke up during the summer and realised that little old Fulham played possession football, playing out from the back. I don't think so, there are other far more compelling and sensible explanations as to why we have struggled this year.
Quote from: RaySmith on December 04, 2017, 04:28:26 PM
Football is a team game, and basically a simple game.
You don't need fashionable systems, the main thing is to score more goals than the other team in a game, and it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's within the laws.
This is maybe especially true in the Championship, compared to the Prem- it is a harsh, unforgiving struggle over a long season, where there isn't much difference between the teams.
You don't necessarily need foreign coaches or players to succeed in this division.
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👍⚽️
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
Sorry but that team proves the point that we do not have a balanced or strong enough squad. Fortunately it would be possible to do better. Play Betts in goal because Button's confidence has taken a knock. Move Odoi to LB because that is his natural position and also because we have seen nothing to suggest Soares should start. Play Madl as CB until Ream is fit because Madl is proveni n this division. Do not select Fonte because.........well it's bleedin obvious. Do select Cairney who just happens to be our captain and best player. Seriously what on earth were you thinking about when you proposed that side as proof that we shoud be doing well?
I was taking into account the previous post about players being injured. This isn't my chosen team.
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 02:01:52 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
This team is a mid-table side at best, it doesn't have a decent striker and the defence is appalling.
You don't need a great team to do well. Compare this to Sheff Utd, player for player. We have more quality in that side than most.
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:49:00 PM
By the way I am fed up with hearing that Joka's tactics have been "found out", this is really lazy thinking. Like, all the managers in the Champ slumbered through last season but finally woke up during the summer and realised that little old Fulham played possession football, playing out from the back. I don't think so, there are other far more compelling and sensible explanations as to why we have struggled this year.
They have been found out. Don't know how you can not think this.
Quote from: General on December 04, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.
A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment
agreed. If it werent for injuries and loss of key players last sumer, replaced by lesser players we would be in an entirely different place. We're not, but I don't see that as Slavisa's fault - I see it as club hierachy politics interfering where they shouldn't.
Last season we improved from January. Relegation being threatened aside I fully expect Slavisa to be given until half way through next season at least to kick us into gear. Everyone can acknowledge this season is frustrating and isn't going to plan, but there are clear transfer related reasons for that. Slav needs to be backed fully by Shahid Khan in January and enabled to do his job properly and to see where that gets us this season and then, personally I think he should also be given the summer to do transfers next year depending on what position we find ourselves in.
If you believe there are clear transfer related issues, then I assume you agree there is clear management and tactical issues.
Quote from: RaySmith on December 04, 2017, 04:28:26 PM
Football is a team game, and basically a simple game.
You don't need fashionable systems, the main thing is to score more goals than the other team in a game, and it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's within the laws.
This is maybe especially true in the Championship, compared to the Prem- it is a harsh, unforgiving struggle over a long season, where there isn't much difference between the teams.
You don't necessarily need foreign coaches or players to succeed in this division.
I don't understand your final sentence. Of course you don't "necessarily need foreign coaches or players" and it would be equally true to say you don't necessarily need home grown coaches and players. Other than a statement of the bleedin' obvious what point exactly are you making?
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 06:28:25 PM
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
Sorry but that team proves the point that we do not have a balanced or strong enough squad. Fortunately it would be possible to do better. Play Betts in goal because Button's confidence has taken a knock. Move Odoi to LB because that is his natural position and also because we have seen nothing to suggest Soares should start. Play Madl as CB until Ream is fit because Madl is proveni n this division. Do not select Fonte because.........well it's bleedin obvious. Do select Cairney who just happens to be our captain and best player. Seriously what on earth were you thinking about when you proposed that side as proof that we shoud be doing well?
I was taking into account the previous post about players being injured. This isn't my chosen team.
Ah ok, well in that case I would disagree that this team should do well, it has players out of position, a weakened midfield and untried players and a pi55 poor streforce.
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 06:28:25 PM
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?
This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change
It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market
Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:
Button
Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares
McDonald Norwood
Kebano Fonte Sessegnon
Kamara
Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.
Sorry but that team proves the point that we do not have a balanced or strong enough squad. Fortunately it would be possible to do better. Play Betts in goal because Button's confidence has taken a knock. Move Odoi to LB because that is his natural position and also because we have seen nothing to suggest Soares should start. Play Madl as CB until Ream is fit because Madl is proveni n this division. Do not select Fonte because.........well it's bleedin obvious. Do select Cairney who just happens to be our captain and best player. Seriously what on earth were you thinking about when you proposed that side as proof that we shoud be doing well?
I was taking into account the previous post about players being injured. This isn't my chosen team.
Ah ok, well in that case I would disagree that this team should do well, it has players out of position, a weakened midfield and untried players and a pi55 poor streforce.
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 08:07:10 PM
Quote from: RaySmith on December 04, 2017, 04:28:26 PM
Football is a team game, and basically a simple game.
You don't need fashionable systems, the main thing is to score more goals than the other team in a game, and it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's within the laws.
This is maybe especially true in the Championship, compared to the Prem- it is a harsh, unforgiving struggle over a long season, where there isn't much difference between the teams.
You don't necessarily need foreign coaches or players to succeed in this division.
I don't understand your final sentence. Of course you don't "necessarily need foreign coaches or players" and it would be equally true to say you don't necessarily need home grown coaches and players. Other than a statement of the bleedin' obvious what point exactly are you making?
There is definitely a preference for foreign managers, and players, especially in the Prem- so it's not obvious then that you don't necessarily need them.
Does Fulham benefit from a foreign manager, rather than a Mickey Adams say, or foreign players with no Championship experience?
But not say that our current manager isn't a good fit for Fulham - he has done well , generally, for us.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 06:30:34 PM
Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:49:00 PM
By the way I am fed up with hearing that Joka's tactics have been "found out", this is really lazy thinking. Like, all the managers in the Champ slumbered through last season but finally woke up during the summer and realised that little old Fulham played possession football, playing out from the back. I don't think so, there are other far more compelling and sensible explanations as to why we have struggled this year.
They have been found out. Don't know how you can not think this.
They haven't been 'found out' - we've dominated most teams in almost every aspect of the game this season apart from goals scored and passes into the final 3rd (mentioned on sky and OPTA), we've only lost 6 games all season out of 20 games played and some of those are unlucky losses. Meanwhile at times we've been playing with HALF, just half of last seasons team... the amount of games I can count where we've played with just 5 or 6 of last seasons team in games this year is suprisingly high.
We've been without Cairney, Mcdonald, Johansen, Aluko, Malone, Ream, Kalas and Piazon for extended periods this season - that's eight of our team from last season, with Malone and Aluko permanently gone.
And we've still got some of the best stats in most areas in the league (passing completion, percentage of possession etc)...
This notion that we've been 'found out' is bordering on the subjective absurd to put it bluntly... Where we've genuinely fallen short is up front and it's cost us hugely... We've drawn nearly half of our games played this season and had we had a proven striker up front we'd have been arguably out of site of those games and not drawn them.
You can't lose Aluko (almost ten goals and 10 assists), Malone, 7 goals and a few assists, Cairney 10 goals and 10 assists, Martin 10 goals - and then suddenly expect us to be as prolific up front and in the final third when we've replaced most of them with Fonte and Kamara... Get Real!
This is purely down to our transfer dealings in the summer which have proven to be useless we got rid of good players, great players for this league and replaced them with lesser players who don't know the league and haven't performed.
Possession football has been popular ever since the game was invented, whenever and wherever that may have been, since without the ball you cannot score which is the fundamental point of the game.
It is demonstrably obvious that teams who possess and use the ball well do better than those who possess and use the ball less well. To use the ball well is the art form and thus in any game a team with less possession may achieve results because they are better with their possession. However, statistics will demonstrate that the chances of using the ball well increase exponentially with possession (the opposition cannot hurt you if they don't have possession). So retention of the ball leads to greater development of the art of using the ball well.
That Fulham are more flawed in possession than last season is down to any number of reasons you can think of or make up, including 'having been found out'. What did we do that was so very different last season from this is thus a clue to what may be wrong and the chief culprit is 'score goals' (or use the ball well). That is down to changes in personnel and Grandad explains how different is the side on the pitch is this time compared to last time. You may say we committed sui-side in the summer.....
I should have attributed the changes to General and not Grandad and so I apologise to both.
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
I have half a heart for your defence of a view you have held for a long time, Lighthouse, but it just doesn't make sense if the players Fulham have are half way decent.
Players can be taught better ball retention and better movement into spaces left behind by pressure dictated by the opposition (which is why we concede so many goals). Ream, Kalas, Odoi, McDonald, Fredericks, Malone, Cairney, Johansen, Piazon, Kebano, Ayite (also missing from the available players list too often this season), Sessegnon, Aluko and even Cyriac were/are all sufficiently technically gifted in dealing with pressure situations (mistakes aside) as could be seen from last season. Fonte, Kamara, Ojo, etc are still learning the arts and often running at pace to have a strike at goal when other openings may be preferable if their chance of scoring is much less than fifty/fifty. Fonte seems lost to the cause at present but could come again. Kamara likes his pace and power but sometimes needs to know where to move to take opponents out of the game. Ojo is a better fit to the current team, IMO, but sometimes seems too hurried when he needs to mix up his skills set a bit. Overall we are caught playing the game at the wrong pace at the wrong times which means teams can pressure us into errors more easily in our defensive third, in midfield or in the final third. That is the big difference between last season and this, and it is also why we are not scoring goals.
When we get eleven players on the pitch who follow instructions and play for the team then we will start to win games handsomely and regularly. Possession football cannot be found out when it is done well but it does need confidence and bravery to play it to the level required. Perhaps there are some in the current squad who are never going to be brave enough.
The players playing have to be half way decent in playing that role or tactics. I agree that we simply haven't players throughout the team who are able to play that way. I never say the tactics are wrong if we have players who can play them. My annoyance and frustration is simply down to the fact that we haven't those players.
Players can be trained, taught to play in a particular way. But as we have seen in Button, a player deliberately bought and picked because he is said to be better at distribution. Clearly is struggling and that spreads to his confidence in other aspects of his game.
Ideally we would have replaced or bought the players to push us on. We didn't or those players have failed to live up to their stats and or hype. But by continual use of the same basic tactics we are highlighting our shortcomings and continuing to let in goals from pressure put on us by playing at the back. We are poor at finishing as we were last season. Yes we scored more goals but created far more chances than we are creating now.
Basically do we stick with a failed tactic for the players we have? Do we change tactics and hope our players are good enough? Or do we simply wait until the players, or players brought in in another transfer window can fit the system?
Any criticism aimed at the Coach is that he is a one trick pony. Which is great with the right pony but looks pony when you have a donkey.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 04:22:18 PM
The players playing have to be half way decent in playing that role or tactics. I agree that we simply haven't players throughout the team who are able to play that way. I never say the tactics are wrong if we have players who can play them. My annoyance and frustration is simply down to the fact that we haven't those players.
Players can be trained, taught to play in a particular way. But as we have seen in Button, a player deliberately bought and picked because he is said to be better at distribution. Clearly is struggling and that spreads to his confidence in other aspects of his game.
Ideally we would have replaced or bought the players to push us on. We didn't or those players have failed to live up to their stats and or hype. But by continual use of the same basic tactics we are highlighting our shortcomings and continuing to let in goals from pressure put on us by playing at the back. We are poor at finishing as we were last season. Yes we scored more goals but created far more chances than we are creating now.
Basically do we stick with a failed tactic for the players we have? Do we change tactics and hope our players are good enough? Or do we simply wait until the players, or players brought in in another transfer window can fit the system?
Any criticism aimed at the Coach is that he is a one trick pony. Which is great with the right pony but looks pony when you have a donkey.
Most managers favour a certain way of playing. It's a myth that a good manager can completely adapt their tactics to the playing squad.
Quote from: Stefan The Viking (The Moose) on December 05, 2017, 05:07:00 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 04:22:18 PM
The players playing have to be half way decent in playing that role or tactics. I agree that we simply haven't players throughout the team who are able to play that way. I never say the tactics are wrong if we have players who can play them. My annoyance and frustration is simply down to the fact that we haven't those players.
Players can be trained, taught to play in a particular way. But as we have seen in Button, a player deliberately bought and picked because he is said to be better at distribution. Clearly is struggling and that spreads to his confidence in other aspects of his game.
Ideally we would have replaced or bought the players to push us on. We didn't or those players have failed to live up to their stats and or hype. But by continual use of the same basic tactics we are highlighting our shortcomings and continuing to let in goals from pressure put on us by playing at the back. We are poor at finishing as we were last season. Yes we scored more goals but created far more chances than we are creating now.
Basically do we stick with a failed tactic for the players we have? Do we change tactics and hope our players are good enough? Or do we simply wait until the players, or players brought in in another transfer window can fit the system?
Any criticism aimed at the Coach is that he is a one trick pony. Which is great with the right pony but looks pony when you have a donkey.
Most managers favour a certain way of playing. It's a myth that a good manager can completely adapt their tactics to the playing squad.
Well it's not a myth because it has been done. Our Coach HAS changed some things within in the system. But obviously Managers and Coaches have ways they prefer to play and they organise their players or bring in players to fit it. Just like Sanchez did. Spending lots of money to little affect. But hopefully we have moved on and as we have a system in place that doesn't mean that every time a manager or Coach is sacked the whole team/system needs to be changed. The club needs to bring in the right players but the Coach needs to adapt the system while he waits.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 04:22:18 PM
The players playing have to be half way decent in playing that role or tactics. I agree that we simply haven't players throughout the team who are able to play that way. I never say the tactics are wrong if we have players who can play them. My annoyance and frustration is simply down to the fact that we haven't those players.
Players can be trained, taught to play in a particular way. But as we have seen in Button, a player deliberately bought and picked because he is said to be better at distribution. Clearly is struggling and that spreads to his confidence in other aspects of his game.
Ideally we would have replaced or bought the players to push us on. We didn't or those players have failed to live up to their stats and or hype. But by continual use of the same basic tactics we are highlighting our shortcomings and continuing to let in goals from pressure put on us by playing at the back. We are poor at finishing as we were last season. Yes we scored more goals but created far more chances than we are creating now.
Basically do we stick with a failed tactic for the players we have? Do we change tactics and hope our players are good enough? Or do we simply wait until the players, or players brought in in another transfer window can fit the system?
Any criticism aimed at the Coach is that he is a one trick pony. Which is great with the right pony but looks pony when you have a donkey.
It's a fair point Lighthouse but I think SJ is trying to build a football ethos at the club based around his vision of the way he wants us to play. I get your argument, but if SJ were to throw his hands up and say; "My players aren't good enough for my preferred style so I will go with an alternative", would be to betray the very ethos he is trying to build.
In my view the club must by now understand that he is determined to do this, so if they want to retain him they have to back him in the transfer market. If not he will either walk or get sacked. Personally I hope he stays and gets the backing he needs. That would make for an exciting time!
I agree with you both, Lighthouse and Twig, although that seems a paradox. Firstly, Lighthouse, I believe SJ has tried different things because, due to the injury roster, he has had to do so. What we see on match days is the result of experiments that may or may not work out. In the Leeds game, as an example, we could have won the game had our finishing of long balls been better. Norwood can, unlike the midfield of last season, open defences up in different ways to Cairney and Johansen but his accuracy is not quite up there with the best. But he is inventive and had got better over time. He, IMO, is the best of the signings, and seldom gives you a reason to drop him. The rest, save for Ojo so far, seldom give you reason to persevere with them because they do not offer a sufficient threat in the context of the team although Kamara often looks as if he'll take on the whole world if need be.
As Twig says altering things would (a) require someone who can hold the ball up in attack, and (b) a very different midfield which is not designed to hold the ball but to actually get it into undefended spaces and follow the attacks into the box. I don't see anyone capable of doing (a) successfully and that is where alternative strategies die since we do not have a second striker capable of doing the same thing on the opposite side of the pitch a bit like Zamora and Johnson did for Hodgson. And so opponents will simply look to cut out long balls at source or at target which is basically what they are doing with us at the moment i.e. breaking us down in our own half and making the midfield come back for the ball rather than receiving it in dangerous areas.
I believe that if SJ is given players capable of doing the things he wants before they arrive at Motspur Park then he will serve up the delights soon enough. We need a left back, a central defender and at least one but preferably two strikers capable of both holding the ball up and breaking into space at pace and with strength. Given what we achieved with Martin they are not going to have to be really expensive buys but they do have to have the potential to play the game the way Fulham play it.
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
It's a good debate but.
When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now.
I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.
We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.
It may be heresy on this thread to suggest it, but maybe Joka is sticking with certain players and at certain positions because he sees qualities in training we don't, and he figures more time in position will give them the sea legs they need to play to their potential. Fonte was a good player before he arrived at Fulham. That's all I'm sayin'. Bryan Ruiz was and arguably still is the best player on his high flying Costa Rican national team, the straw that stirs the drink. But he was never used properly during his time at Fulham and languished. Give this manager time with his new players and lineup. We're far from done. He'll get it right. Look what we almost accomplished last season. Shall we go back and revisit the posts on this forum back then? People were in ecstasy over how this team played. The talk of the league. Now to read some of the historical revisionism on this thread, such success was purely accidental, accomplishment in spite of the manager. Come on, now.
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 05, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
It's a good debate but.
When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now.
I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.
We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.
Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there
Look at the Brentford goals:
#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag
#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half
#3 - comes from a passage of passes starting from the Brentford goalkeeper
All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.
But Smith would spin it that way because it makes him sound an astute tactician.
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 05, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
It's a good debate but.
When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now.
I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.
We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.
Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there
Look at the Brentford goals:
#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag
#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half
#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box
All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.
Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn't the lack of goals, it's the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can't remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 10:57:38 PM
Quote from: JoelH5 on December 05, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 05, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
It's a good debate but.
When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now.
I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.
We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.
Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there
Look at the Brentford goals:
#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag
#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half
#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box
All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.
Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn't the lack of goals, it's the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can't remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority
Agreed our defence is poor but it's nothing to do with getting pressed high and caught out trying to play it out from the back
Yep I agree. I'm not sure what's it is. We don't seem to track people well and are often beaten by counter attacks
Quote from: JoelH5 on December 05, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 05, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
It's a good debate but.
When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now.
I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.
We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.
Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there
Look at the Brentford goals:
#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag
#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half
#3 - starts with Brentford winning a free kick in their own penalty box
All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.
Even if we took our chances and won, we still would have conceded two goals. My main worry atm isn't the lack of goals, it's the defence. Apart from against Millwall I can't remember our last clean sheet. Improving the defence has to be our main priority
Our last clean sheet prior to Millwall was v Ipswich Town on August 26th if my memory is correct. Of course as you say, the defence is more of a concern, although the forwards need addressing also. But the defence has more problems. The back Division do not play as a unit. There is little balance and no depth, as was highlighted v Brentford with the way they were able to score their goals.
We are weak in the air and at set pieces and corners. The players are short in stature and height, and there are no leaders. No communication and nobody to marshal the players.
The back four as defenders are the weakest we have had for quite a while. Also to add to our woes the problem with the Goalkeeper situation just magnifies the problems even more.
No wonder we rarely keep a clean sheet.
On top of that we cannot buy a goal, and when we do score 5 we conceded 4 in the same match just to make it interesting, you couldn't make it up, it's all a recipe for disaster and dissapointment. If the club cannot see what the man and his dog in the street can see, then we are in deeper poo than we realise.
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 10:46:39 PM
Quote from: ScalleysDad on December 05, 2017, 10:01:50 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
It's a good debate but.
When do we complete the circle and quote the Brentford manager who said they knew how Fulham play and they knew how to stop it by high pressing. Opposition training sessions must be a doddle and will continue to be so whilst we are a one trick donkey, pony, llama or whatever it has evolved into now.
I doubt JOka is going to leave a legacy for us to swoon over so he needs to apply some common sense, get that chip off his shoulder and plan match strategies with the materials available.
We seem to have the proverbial 'massive' game on a regular basis now but we could be twenty points behind Cardiff come tea time on Saturday.
Well Dean Smith has left you one side short of a square there
Look at the Brentford goals:
#1 - starts with Brentford winning the ball off Kebano deep in their own half, by the corner flag
#2 - starts with Brentford winning a long ball Button has hoofed deep into their half
#3 - starts with them winning possession just inside their own half (we have 9 men behind the ball) then a long passage of passes going back to the Brentford goalkeeper
All start deep in the Brentford half. They didn't get anything from pressing us high, just left themselves exposed for the chances we made, which would have been more than enough to win the game had we been sensible/clinical.
fair analysis of the goals but the quote and my use of it was more in relation to open play and how we are forced to go sideways and backwards, like we don't do it enough already, which puts Button and the back four under more pressure, pressure they just cannot handle. Ultimately you are right in that Brentford did not score from pressing us high up the pitch but the tactic stopped us playing the Joka way.
Of course then along came Odoi.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 05:27:32 PM
Quote from: Stefan The Viking (The Moose) on December 05, 2017, 05:07:00 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 04:22:18 PM
The players playing have to be half way decent in playing that role or tactics. I agree that we simply haven't players throughout the team who are able to play that way. I never say the tactics are wrong if we have players who can play them. My annoyance and frustration is simply down to the fact that we haven't those players.
Players can be trained, taught to play in a particular way. But as we have seen in Button, a player deliberately bought and picked because he is said to be better at distribution. Clearly is struggling and that spreads to his confidence in other aspects of his game.
Ideally we would have replaced or bought the players to push us on. We didn't or those players have failed to live up to their stats and or hype. But by continual use of the same basic tactics we are highlighting our shortcomings and continuing to let in goals from pressure put on us by playing at the back. We are poor at finishing as we were last season. Yes we scored more goals but created far more chances than we are creating now.
Basically do we stick with a failed tactic for the players we have? Do we change tactics and hope our players are good enough? Or do we simply wait until the players, or players brought in in another transfer window can fit the system?
Any criticism aimed at the Coach is that he is a one trick pony. Which is great with the right pony but looks pony when you have a donkey.
Most managers favour a certain way of playing. It's a myth that a good manager can completely adapt their tactics to the playing squad.
Well it's not a myth because it has been done. Our Coach HAS changed some things within in the system. But obviously Managers and Coaches have ways they prefer to play and they organise their players or bring in players to fit it. Just like Sanchez did. Spending lots of money to little affect. But hopefully we have moved on and as we have a system in place that doesn't mean that every time a manager or Coach is sacked the whole team/system needs to be changed. The club needs to bring in the right players but the Coach needs to adapt the system while he waits.
He may have changed the formation or made the odd tweak, but the style has remained the same and that's the case for most managers. Most managers stick to one overall style of play and just make small tweaks.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 11:27:43 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.
But most of our goals come from counter attacks made possible by giving the ball away cheaply in mdifield or attack, a similar pattern to last season during our run. The difference is that when you score goals and look like doing so from every attack then opponents are much more inclined to panic in defence and midfield a bit like we did in second half on Saturday. That is also the psychology of the effective press when you have the lead in a game as seen in the Wolves game when they kept us busy by stopping us from playing. If we want a serious comment about the Brentford game it is that we cannot extend or defend a lead even when playing at a reasonable level for the players involved.
Of course we could own up to not having signed good cover for Kalas and Ream at any time in 2017 in our attempts to fill Motspur Park with at least one satisfactory striker and replacement for Aluko. With a decent centre back cover slot in at least we could have Odoi to play left back in the absence of any Malone replacement. The whole thing is about not joining dots up in the DoF office and Khan Jnr and company should go.
Dont actually agree with the idea that our defensive problems are caused by sloppy mistakes in our own half when we are "bringing the ball out from the back . We dont give away goals because we give the ball away in our own half ,or through pressure from other teams as such. Kebanos loss of possession for their first goal illustrates my Point. Ok they won the ball back but it was due to a niave piece of play by kebano which led to us not finishing our attack whilst committing many players forward. The problem was that we were poor in transition to defence with tooo many players caught in attacking mode.
Our failure to then re -win the ball back quickly shows a defensive problem we have and for me,and illustrates the main reason that we miss Sone aluko. He was very quick to to try to regain possession when it was lost in the opponents half of the pitch. Johansen is also excellent at this.
The combination of slow transition to defense having lost the ball in the opponents half,sloppy use of the final ball ,and a pssiveness when trying to regain possession are the major problems that we have defensively.
Cant actually think of any goals conceded this year due to opposition pressure in our own half this season.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 11:27:43 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.
Quote from: colinwhite on December 06, 2017, 08:34:30 AM
Dont actually agree with the idea that our defensive problems are caused by sloppy mistakes in our own half when we are "bringing the ball out from the back . We dont give away goals because we give the ball away in our own half ,or through pressure from other teams as such. Kebanos loss of possession for their first goal illustrates my Point. Ok they won the ball back but it was due to a niave piece of play by kebano which led to us not finishing our attack whilst committing many players forward. The problem was that we were poor in transition to defence with tooo many players caught in attacking mode.
Our failure to then re -win the ball back quickly shows a defensive problem we have and for me,and illustrates the main reason that we miss Sone aluko. He was very quick to to try to regain possession when it was lost in the opponents half of the pitch. Johansen is also excellent at this.
The combination of slow transition to defense having lost the ball in the opponents half,sloppy use of the final ball ,and a pssiveness when trying to regain possession are the major problems that we have defensively.
Cant actually think of any goals conceded this year due to opposition pressure in our own half this season.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 11:27:43 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 07:57:15 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 05, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
But last season teams had learned that to put pressure on us deep meant were hurried and often gave the ball away. This season teams have just followed up on that and we, for some reason have decided that with less able players, to continue playing it out from the back. Now if we continue with this team in playing the same way then the same conclusion will naturally occur.
Our back 5/6 is the same as last year, not "less able players". Playing out from the back clearly makes fans nervous but it still works as well, if not better, than it did last year. Our new defensive problems occur, for whatever reason, when we do *not* have the ball, not when we do. But in any case the main differences between this year And last year are in attack, not defence. We have less able players up front.
Without Malone and with the players not as comfortable or as in form and giving the ball away more often. Our problem is that we are caught too often bringing the ball out from the back. By doing so we slow the game up, something we didn't do last season as we were quick on the break. Therefore by the time the ball reaches our front players they are well and truly marked out of the game.
Completely agree. Our transition defensively has caused a lot of issues. It's not often we concede from either giving the ball in our own half or from a well orchestrated build up from the other team. The Brentford match, first goal conceded, was a product of Kebano's cross deflecting in their favor, but the problem was we let Watkins run through our entire midfield.
Quote from: Forever Fulham on December 05, 2017, 10:27:29 PM
It may be heresy on this thread to suggest it, but maybe Joka is sticking with certain players and at certain positions because he sees qualities in training we don't, and he figures more time in position will give them the sea legs they need to play to their potential. Fonte was a good player before he arrived at Fulham. That's all I'm sayin'. Bryan Ruiz was and arguably still is the best player on his high flying Costa Rican national team, the straw that stirs the drink. But he was never used properly during his time at Fulham and languished. Give this manager time with his new players and lineup. We're far from done. He'll get it right. Look what we almost accomplished last season. Shall we go back and revisit the posts on this forum back then? People were in ecstasy over how this team played. The talk of the league. Now to read some of the historical revisionism on this thread, such success was purely accidental, accomplishment in spite of the manager. Come on, now.
Well said. Some will say it's because they aren't acclimated to the league style, or some will say they aren't proper for Fulham's style of play.
The irony is that noone seems to know Fulham's style right now. Are we a made up collection of foreigners trying to play 4-3-3 attack, but masking it as a 4-5-1? Who knows! Nobody does.
Some would say they know what we
want as the style, but noone actually
knows what our style is. That could be a credit to a manager who has made things too complicated, even for his own players; or for a stats based system that the manager was forced to customize - who knows. For example, how many teams play with a False-9 out there? If they do...do they put their CM up there? Not that I know of. How many teams opt for an agile, short, smaller frame, perceived striker instead of a big, force of a man that has the perfect reference to an assault rifle?
I think the players are there for Slav, but just like managers before him, he's not putting players in the right positions. If/when he does, the tactics don't match the intent. My hope is that he learns that sooner rather than later, and I hope we see that as soon as Saturday.
I was chatting to chap who fixing my fence, his a Watford supporter,he reckons it was the best thing when Slav went.
Quote from: alfie on December 08, 2017, 08:27:57 PM
I was chatting to chap who fixing my fence, his a Watford supporter,he reckons it was the best thing when Slav went.
Surely then the Fulham management must take this as a warning and take heed!
You just cannot get better expert opinion than a fence fixer?
Think he has to get at least 5 points from the next three games, or it will be bye bye
Quote from: BestOfBrede on December 08, 2017, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: alfie on December 08, 2017, 08:27:57 PM
I was chatting to chap who fixing my fence, his a Watford supporter,he reckons it was the best thing when Slav went.
Surely then the Fulham management must take this as a warning and take heed!
You just cannot get better expert opinion than a fence fixer?
But was he sitting on the fence ?
Hope he didn't take offence!
In his defence, he didn't have any!
Quote from: BestOfBrede on December 08, 2017, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: alfie on December 08, 2017, 08:27:57 PM
I was chatting to chap who fixing my fence, his a Watford supporter,he reckons it was the best thing when Slav went.
Surely then the Fulham management must take this as a warning and take heed!
You just cannot get better expert opinion than a fence fixer?
Oi that's a bit mean!
Quote from: BestOfBrede on December 08, 2017, 08:57:03 PM
Quote from: alfie on December 08, 2017, 08:27:57 PM
I was chatting to chap who fixing my fence, his a Watford supporter,he reckons it was the best thing when Slav went.
Surely then the Fulham management must take this as a warning and take heed!
You just cannot get better expert opinion than a fence fixer?
Like you he is a football supporter with an opinion.
Not another fence post.
Today I think we have an almost fully fit squad, just Odoi and Piazon missing neither of whom were in early season starting elevens.
Birmingham are in a relegation spot and are reporting injury problems, they have yet to win away from home this season.
Surely if we can't win today serious questions will be asked of Jocanovic.
The problem with fence posts is they are always on one side or the other.
Too many opposing players , like last week, run right through our team to create, or score, a goal, without being tackled.
Ojo was talking about it in his interview- 'maybe I, or one of the others, should have got a tackle in,' and that's just what I thought watching it - even it was adjudged a foul, just to stop the bloke.
I appreciate Ojo's honesty, anyway, and it's obviously not the same watching a replay rather than actually being in the situation.
In the olden times, defenders like Mullery, Eddie Lowe or Jim Langley would have a 'they shall not pass' philosophy, and legal tackles they made would probably be given as fouls today, but they would prefer to give away a free kick than just let someone go right through and score or create an opportunity for someone else.
Are we too nice - but then you could point to all the cards we get
But I would like to se more aggression and bite to our play, though I think the team's shown a lot of fight in games this season, keeping going right to the end, and often getting a result in the final minutes. But better if we didn't need to do that, and we often seem to give away goals far too easily.
Organisation is fundamental at the back.
As Joka says regularly "we need to be more solid"
Some of our players need to take this on board & do it
Even given we have had plenty of yellow & red cards
You can add Paul Went to the above list Ray!
After today's win, he should be with us for another week.
Quote from: davew on December 09, 2017, 05:08:12 PM
After today's win, he should be with us for another week.
Betts clean sheet should guarantee he will be the Custodian next week, and we must give Sunderland and Chris Coleman a Bloody nose.
Can see the khans leaving slav at fulham to get on with the job till he leaves on his own terms.
Same old frustration at not scoring when well on top. Same old frustration of giving the ball away. Could have messed up when they were awarded a penalty but missed it. Not sure today did anything to change opinions. Same old Fulham. Subs worked well however. Even Fonte did ok when he came on.
Quote from: hovewhite on December 09, 2017, 06:17:43 PM
Can see the khans leaving slav at fulham to get on with the job till he leaves on his own terms.
That is most probably the likeliest scenario.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 09, 2017, 08:53:03 PM
Same old frustration at not scoring when well on top. Same old frustration of giving the ball away. Could have messed up when they were awarded a penalty but missed it. Not sure today did anything to change opinions. Same old Fulham. Subs worked well however. Even Fonte did ok when he came on.
Birmingham, only four goals and no wins away from home and we put in a performance that looked like a repeat of the Millwall performance. We would have failed to win but for the terrible penalty miss, we are not performing well.
Can you imagine what we would be saying right now if those last two tight, tight games at the Cottage had gone the other way.
092.gif The big issue is not how long has he got, but if he goes who the hell do we replace him with??
Another lunatic like Felix? Who out there is out of work who would unite the FFC fans?
Please no-one mention that arse Redknapp 063.gif
There are no brilliant names sat at home awaiting Khan's phone call.
Sometimes better the devil you know!
Until we sign two or three players that are first choice and complete the team
i.e. a proper CF, a proper CH and a Keeper who commands the defence
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
Until we sign two or three players that are first choice and complete the team
i.e. a proper CF, a proper CH and a Keeper who commands the defence
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
He does a good job of tying the other one behind his back by his team selection and substitutions. Please, play our most dangerous player in attack not defence
Quote from: Fulham Tup North on December 10, 2017, 01:08:51 PM
092.gif The big issue is not how long has he got, but if he goes who the hell do we replace him with??
Another lunatic like Felix? Who out there is out of work who would unite the FFC fans?
Please no-one mention that arse Redknapp 063.gif
There are no brilliant names sat at home awaiting Khan's phone call.
Sometimes better the devil you know!
Have you ever considered that arse Redknapp ?
Quote from: Fulham Tup North on December 10, 2017, 01:08:51 PM
092.gif The big issue is not how long has he got, but if he goes who the hell do we replace him with??
Another lunatic like Felix? Who out there is out of work who would unite the FFC fans?
Please no-one mention that arse Redknapp 063.gif
There are no brilliant names sat at home awaiting Khan's phone call.
Sometimes better the devil you know!
I hope that Jocanovic can put a few good performances and results together now that will enable him to keep his job at least until the end of the season. Jocanovic's programme notes were interesting, he said that his staff and he had already identified what would be the best options to improve the squad and add team quality.
This suggests that he will determine who we sign and that new signings are planned in the winter window.
If he gets his men in January but we see no improvement in the second half of the season then he will be getting close to the end of his contract and we need to have a replacement in mind.
Lets not have a repeat performance of what happened when we sacked Kit, we should always have a secret short list available. I see no reason why Danny Murphy shouldn't be on that list right now.
Calls for Danny Murphy must be tempered by the fact he has no managerial experience. I would go for someone like Daryl Clarke at Bristol Rovers ... bright, up and coming coach, communicates well, a bit in the mould of the Bristol City's Lee Johnson - he's not doing too badly.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
Agree.
I actually commend SJ for being a true professional compared to the bunch of amateurs that he has to work under. At least he, and he alone, has made possible a better showing in the Championship than any of those before him often against ridiculous odds. It would not hurt the Club to give him free rein for the next eighteen months or so if Khan really believes in 'whatever it takes'. SJ is not a spendthrift and doesn't need the 'best'. He needs players who are willing and able to play to the system and give it their best shot.
If the Club wants to be better then it had best look at shaking up the recruitment team and deciding who should go and who should stay. To say we could do better in that domain is an understatement.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 11, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
Agree.
I actually commend SJ for being a true professional compared to the bunch of amateurs that he has to work under. At least he, and he alone, has made possible a better showing in the Championship than any of those before him often against ridiculous odds. It would not hurt the Club to give him free rein for the next eighteen months or so if Khan really believes in 'whatever it takes'. SJ is not a spendthrift and doesn't need the 'best'. He needs players who are willing and able to play to the system and give it their best shot.
If the Club wants to be better then it had best look at shaking up the recruitment team and deciding who should go and who should stay. To say we could do better in that domain is an understatement.
0001.jpeg
Quote from: toshes mate on December 11, 2017, 09:17:46 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
Agree.
I actually commend SJ for being a true professional compared to the bunch of amateurs that he has to work under. At least he, and he alone, has made possible a better showing in the Championship than any of those before him often against ridiculous odds. It would not hurt the Club to give him free rein for the next eighteen months or so if Khan really believes in 'whatever it takes'. SJ is not a spendthrift and doesn't need the 'best'. He needs players who are willing and able to play to the system and give it their best shot.
If the Club wants to be better then it had best look at shaking up the recruitment team and deciding who should go and who should stay. To say we could do better in that domain is an understatement.
Absolutely, and the absent Chairman and the club are lucky Jok has not walked away from working with these amateurs, and I include both Khans as well as the disgraced statts control Freak, the Chairmans Sons best mate Kline, and anyone else amongst the recruitment merchants, that falls into that category of not pursuing anyone over the age of 28, or looking into Divisions One and Two.
What a way to run a Professional Football Club, and we wonder why we have only won a third of our matches to date, and nearly all by the odd goal.
in any properly-run football club, people such as the chairman's son and Kline who know nothing about football would not be let within a mile of making decisions on recruitment or on which players to sell. It is farcical and it is no wonder that the coach is getting increasingly fed up with such a ludicrous situation. As I know nothing whatsoever about his business perhaps I should ask Mr. Kahn to give me a highly-paid job making decisions on how to run it. Rank bad management by any standards
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
Until we sign two or three players that are first choice and complete the team
i.e. a proper CF, a proper CH and a Keeper who commands the defence
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
I will always regard our manager as doing his job with one eye closed, as he seemed to have not noticed the talent he perpetually leaves out.
Quote from: Tonywa on December 11, 2017, 08:58:14 PM
in any properly-run football club, people such as the chairman's son and Kline who know nothing about football would not be let within a mile of making decisions on recruitment or on which players to sell. It is farcical and it is no wonder that the coach is getting increasingly fed up with such a ludicrous situation. As I know nothing whatsoever about his business perhaps I should ask Mr. Kahn to give me a highly-paid job making decisions on how to run it. Rank bad management by any standards
Brian Talbot, a scout who's been in the game for years, is part of the scouting team.
I think Slava will keep his job as long as results continue to improve, but maybe not if they nosedive again.
I also think he could leave in the summer, depending on how this season pans out.
It seems irrational - you get a manager in, who has a certain style of play, and gets this implemented through the club at all levels, then he can be summarily sacked, and someone else comes in who wants to play in a different way, with different players.
But maybe the club wants to keep Slava and won't just sack him if his results are poor, like they did with Kit. But if relegation seems possible then owners can panic.
Even though we are still not halfway through our fixtures, and also still in the FA Cup. There is an element of gloom around the place, and understandbly so.
I think Jok is more than likely to leave at the end of the season, than be sacked. If this club does decide to sack him for what ever reason. Then who will replace him that's available to do any better with the resources we have.
Also as mentioned now that we have a certain system of play that is implemented throughout the club. What exactly are we going to gain by changing manager at any stage this season.
Too much upheaval and for what.
Yes Jok has made some odd decisions in selecting the Team at times, and Sess at left back is doing nobody any good.
Yes the spine of the Team is comparatively weak, will any of this be addressed in January.
Whether it does or not, I still cannot see any advantage in sacking him during this season.
I shall not give up hope until it's mathematically impossible to reach top six.
I feel the season so far has been a damp squib for all the obvious reasons that have been debated on different threads.
If Jok reaches the end of the season unscathed, I would not blame him if he left of his own accord.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 11, 2017, 11:35:34 PM
I will always regard our manager as doing his job with one eye closed, as he seemed to have not noticed the talent he perpetually leaves out.
Perhaps you have both eyes and your mind closed. There is absolutely no way you can prove your point since the season cannot be played over again with your 'selections' instead of his, and perhaps that is just as well too.
I try not to be surprised by some of the posts here. "We need to learn to win ugly" but when we do, we complain about how awful we've played. Joka's tunnel vision regards certain players and game plans. Have we already forgotten how Roy stuck to his guns regarding certain players and his game plans? The stay-away Chairman whose son is on the Board. Mo spent a fair amount of time abroad and his son was on the Board.
I appreciate that the above are the "go to" topics dependant on results. As much as Joka frustrates me, he is the best manager we've had since Roy. He doesn't have the cache of the premiership to attract players that Roy did. He hasn't had the vast experience Roy came here with but I think he'll probably end his career as successfully as Roy's (when it ends). I'd happily accept ugly wins against Sunderland and Barnsley. Ok it's not the way most want to win games but it's a confidence builder amongst the players and is a worry to any opposition team.
I understand expectations, etc, but not sure why there would be such gloom in the club. I personally feel good about where we can go and what can be achieved. While incremental, there have been some positive changes. You can tell the players are dedicated to the cause and if the likes of Tom Cairney wants to stay with the club for a long time, that has to say something to not just the fans - but also potential January targets.
Quote from: Matt10 on December 12, 2017, 01:39:05 PM
I understand expectations, etc, but not sure why there would be such gloom in the club. I personally feel good about where we can go and what can be achieved. While incremental, there have been some positive changes. You can tell the players are dedicated to the cause and if the likes of Tom Cairney wants to stay with the club for a long time, that has to say something to not just the fans - but also potential January targets.
I applaud your optimism but I fear we may lose several key players in the summer unless we're promoted (and I honestly can't see that happening now). We will probably lose Sess. I can't see Cairney staying much longer either. There's also the dwindling parachute payments that may force us to sell. Plus all the problems behind the scenes with an absent owner and a son who doesn't seem to have a clue about running a football club.
At least we got rid of Kline. Whether this will improve our transfer activities remains to be seen. It can't get much worse than the last two disastrous transfer windows so should at least be plenty of room for improvement (probably on a lower budget though). There's also the question of spending large money in January if we're not likely to make the playoffs.
Personally I'm preparing mentally for several years in the Championship. It's not the end of the world. In many ways I enjoy the Championship more than Premier League but let's face it, we had our golden opportunity last season and blew it.
Quote from: VicHalomsLovechild on December 12, 2017, 12:48:26 PM
I try not to be surprised by some of the posts here. "We need to learn to win ugly" but when we do, we complain about how awful we've played. Joka's tunnel vision regards certain players and game plans. Have we already forgotten how Roy stuck to his guns regarding certain players and his game plans? The stay-away Chairman whose son is on the Board. Mo spent a fair amount of time abroad and his son was on the Board.
I appreciate that the above are the "go to" topics dependant on results. As much as Joka frustrates me, he is the best manager we've had since Roy. He doesn't have the cache of the premiership to attract players that Roy did. He hasn't had the vast experience Roy came here with but I think he'll probably end his career as successfully as Roy's (when it ends). I'd happily accept ugly wins against Sunderland and Barnsley. Ok it's not the way most want to win games but it's a confidence builder amongst the players and is a worry to any opposition team.
Well said
0001.jpeg :plus one:
Yes that nightmare Kline has gone, and there has been dancing in the streets ever since.
But the exodus will not be complete until Khan Junior is removed.
As a footnote.
I feel it's the other way round, and it's more a case of how much more time will Slavisa give Fulham FC, how much realistic time has the club got. As they are the ones on trial or probation, not Jok.
The club needs to back him in January, and not just with words or free transfers or loaners.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 11, 2017, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 10, 2017, 03:06:07 PM
Until we sign two or three players that are first choice and complete the team
i.e. a proper CF, a proper CH and a Keeper who commands the defence
I will always regard this manager as having to do his job with one hand tied behind his back.
I will always regard our manager as doing his job with one eye closed, as he seemed to have not noticed the talent he perpetually leaves out.
That would be as opposed to the talent he selects, the youngsters he has given game time to and those he has given a chance to establish themselves? But then I guess you know better than he.
