So how much can we spend in January? Our FOF colleague Twig reminds us frequently that with the sales we made, the purchases column in the accounts book for this season is effectively at zero.
Assuming the Chairman is prepared to invest (spend!) is there a ceiling under FFP? Enlighten me please.
Quote from: MikeW on December 03, 2017, 06:41:47 PM
So how much can we spend in January? Our FOF colleague Twig reminds us frequently that with the sales we made, the purchases column in the accounts book for this season is effectively at zero.
Assuming the Chairman is prepared to invest (spend!) is there a ceiling under FFP? Enlighten me please.
I don't know the answer to your FFP question but Khan has had plenty of transfer windows to spend & really get behind his 'stop at nothing until we're back in the prem' promise but unfortunately he doesn't follow through on his promises. Therefore, I think the risk of overspending & breaking the FFP rules really is something we don't need to worry about.
I am just as worried about future years when we have to take into account some hefty losses getting rid of some of the players we signed in the last window and won't be worth anywhere near what we paid for them!
Has Khan repeated this "stop at nothing " quote? I've seen this thrown around a few times to justify complaining at lack of expenditure, but is this his present view and stance?
It's like fans complaining that we still aren't the Man United of the South!
Quote from: Newry FFC on December 03, 2017, 07:43:56 PM
Has Khan repeated this "stop at nothing " quote? I've seen this thrown around a few times to justify complaining at lack of expenditure, but is this his present view and stance?
It's like fans complaining that we still aren't the Man United of the South!
Not quite! Al Fayed's comment was c. 20 years ago & he really tried to follow through. Khans comment just 1 or 2 years ago, (I can't remember what drumming up season ticket's year it was).
And I've no idea what his current stance is as he doesn't really speak to Fulham fans.
Was thinking about this recently. Last time we gained promotion we had a majority of Premiership players in our squad and swept all before us.
Wolves appear to be doing just whats needed with fabulous players and internationally renowned coach.
15 million on one player may seem excessive but Wolves will definitely have access to the 100 million pounds available next season.
Can we / would we invest heavily enough to obtain the promised land?
It does worry me,however, how our major buys (over 10 million) have all been pretty disappointing. Ruiz debut stands out for me, Jol stated we had purchased the best player in Holland and I was thinking Berkamp standard but watching him lose the ball so often my fears were never reversed by his appearances in our shirt. Would like to add was always grateful for Kit getting him back from his loan spell and he did help us out of the mire.
My view is this season is definitely not the season to invest in January.
Like our previous promotion we need an explosive start and an "add to" in January.
Maybe next season we get the explosive start.
Don't understand this constant drumbeat of "Khan needs to spend." He has spent tons on 4 different strikers, none of which excelled and two of which were disasters. Fault the man for being naive but lack of spending? Its just shows an utter lack of knowledge about the clubs transactions.
Jim, calm down. My observation was based on the fact that what he has spent it has mostly been unwisely and - as has been pointed out - last summers outgoings have been recouped. He is not (seemingly) in control of the cheque book although I grant you, it's his money.
He is ill advised and I'm simply asking if any money made available for Jan will break these cursed spending rules for this season. As I read it, they won't because we have a (effectively) zero spend. Again, some enlightenment please.
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 03, 2017, 09:06:25 PM
Don't understand this constant drumbeat of "Khan needs to spend." He has spent tons on 4 different strikers, none of which excelled and two of which were disasters. Fault the man for being naive but lack of spending? Its just shows an utter lack of knowledge about the clubs transactions.
There's been no lack of sales of players too. The club's net spending hasn't been that spectacular.
Piontless spending the way we spend on transfers the whole system stinks!
Quote from: hovewhite on December 03, 2017, 09:49:04 PM
Piontless spending the way we spend on transfers the whole system stinks!
Yeah, got to agree. It could be argued either way - he does spend, he doesn't spend but the key thing with Fulham is, we do it the wrong way. This stats based system is ridiculous & doesn't work.
Quote from: MikeW on December 03, 2017, 09:38:05 PM
Jim, calm down. My observation was based on the fact that what he has spent it has mostly been unwisely and - as has been pointed out - last summers outgoings have been recouped. He is not (seemingly) in control of the cheque book although I grant you, it's his money.
He is ill advised and I'm simply asking if any money made available for Jan will break these cursed spending rules for this season. As I read it, they won't because we have a (effectively) zero spend. Again, some enlightenment please.
Are we forgetting the spending rules? Seems we did previously and were penalized for it. Would you be happy if we had spent extravagantly and were in the red at this point? We are in a solid financial position which, to me, means we are not going to be relegated because we are able to keep buying 10 million pound strikers. Mitroglou, McCormick, Martin & Fonte. Maybe the next one will be worth it. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
Khan kept Mo's management team and they did a horrible job. Guess that shows the brilliance of Mo. Khan then went out and "depowered" Ali Mack and in comes Felix, then Kline and Tony. I'm back to the blind squirrel analogy.
Khan was a dirt poor Pakistani immigrant who through his intelligence and shrewdness became a multi billionaire. He turned around the Jags which have always been losers and he will turn FFC around as well (I hope).
Then whatever it costs quote was made once about 4 years ago, maintaining the club as self sufficient has been made on numerous occasions. The word used is sustainability.
Khan does need to spend, but spend wisely. He has done that with players like Cairney, Fred, KMac, StefJo and others and spent badly on Fonte, Cisse and others as well. This is what happens at all clubs. Our problem is that the squad became unbalanced this summer with too many wingers and no real strengthening to the spine of the team. This is particularly poor because just about every bugger knew what was required and still is.
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 04, 2017, 07:58:20 AM
Then whatever it costs quote was made once about 4 years ago, maintaining the club as self sufficient has been made on numerous occasions. The word used is sustainability.
Khan does need to spend, but spend wisely. He has done that with players like Cairney, Fred, KMac, StefJo and others and spent badly on Fonte, Cisse and others as well. This is what happens at all clubs. Our problem is that the squad became unbalanced this summer with too many wingers and no real strengthening to the spine of the team. This is particularly poor because just about every bugger knew what was required and still is.
Beat me to it Stuart. It was actually in May 2014 just as we got relegated. I do believe he was, as in many things, quite naive to say that and didn't understand the true cost of relegation. In such we had to make cost cutting of the wages and shifting on many players. We failed FFP that season anyway and didnt do it enough.
So he could have gone down the QPR way of spending and not worrying about it, and we didn't.
But like many quotes from people this one has stuck around and comes back to haunt him. Although in truth he properly doesn't recall writing it.
Seasons done. We're so far off playoffs now that significant transfers would be mainly to allow Slav to build a decent squad for next season (if hes here). Its so disappointing, but amazing to think, Fulhams greatest accolade is taking all absolute potentials and royally f**king it up. In a championship season with the likes of Cairney, McDonald and Sess, and by December after 20 games we're 15th on 26 points when the season objective was 2nd is unbelievable. Woeful, absolutely woeful.
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 04, 2017, 07:58:20 AM
Our problem is that the squad became unbalanced this summer with too many wingers and no real strengthening to the spine of the team. This is particularly poor because just about every bugger knew what was required and still is.
Including Jokanovic.
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 08:46:25 AM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 04, 2017, 01:39:05 AM
Khan kept Mo's management team and they did a horrible job
...
Khan was a dirt poor Pakistani immigrant who through his intelligence and shrewdness became a multi billionaire. He turned around the Jags which have always been losers and he will turn FFC around as well (I hope).
When Khan took over, the following people left the board without being replaced
Dennis Turner - Fulham fan, Chief Economist for HSBC, director since 2009
Mark Collins - Fulham fan, property specialist, on board since 2001
Omar Fayed - MAF's son
Karim Fayed - MAF's son
Michael Cole - PR man (ex-Harrods director of public affairs)
As to Khan's background, I want to agree with you, but in my (admittedly limited) experience most self-made millionaires achieved that status through (in descending order of importance) being in the right place at the right time, working hard, and having a strong knowledge of the particular industrial niche in which they made their fortune (in Khan's case car bumpers). None of those are useful/relevant to Khan's ownership of Fulham.
So, to become a billionaire means being lucky? That might explain why you and I aren't billionaires. This is nonsense. Being in the right place at the right time can be luck. For example Fonte scoring. The difference between luck and skill is that Fonte has ceased scoring and Khan continues to make money. Mo's money, property and PR men ran the football side of FFC? I think not.
Running a multi billion dollar business requires a lot more ability than the bumper business. I know a lot about bumpers, having spent most of my life in some aspect of automotive repair business but I'm no where near a billionaire. By your analogy, Mo's expertise in retail shouldn't have aided him in running FFC. Cream rises to the top. Be it bumpers or retail sales and hopefully history will repeat itself when it comes to football.
You know looking at our summer buying and selling I think there is plenty of room for us to improve in the winter window and still be a failure.
( Sorry just can't get over the Brentford game)
Our winter transfer business has to be about planning for next season. Remember Kalas, and many other players are loans and will be gone again. We need to sign a centre half or 2 that have the potential to greatly improve us into next season. Also, sign Fred on a contract extension and a left back. Ok Fonte and Kamara have not done much although I still think Kamara looks to have potential, attacking wise is not our problem, defending is and we should strengthen the defence now.
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 04, 2017, 09:49:57 PM
Our winter transfer business has to be about planning for next season. Remember Kalas, and many other players are loans and will be gone again. We need to sign a centre half or 2 that have the potential to greatly improve us into next season. Also, sign Fred on a contract extension and a left back. Ok Fonte and Kamara have not done much although I still think Kamara looks to have potential, attacking wise is not our problem, defending is and we should strengthen the defence now.
OK but if we take Fonte as the £9m benchmark for our summer signings what can we expect to get over the winter window .
The important thing is identifying the right players in the right places. The club have tried in the past to bring in a centre half but have failed rather badly. Up front we had the right type of player in Martin but he didn't want to be here and ended up playing like it. Then this season we brought in a number 10 and a raw forward, neither of whom look the business just yet. Or is Ojo supposed to be our striker?
Plus Malone going meant Soares should have been his replacement allowing Sess to play further forward. But Soares clearly is not suitable or fit or any good.
Money isn't the problem but bringing in the right players in the right positions is. At the end of last season I talked about wanting a stronger spine to push on. We ended up with no improvement at all at keeper or the back and even worse up front.
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 09:20:20 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 04, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
So, to become a billionaire means being lucky? That might explain why you and I aren't billionaires. This is nonsense. Being in the right place at the right time can be luck. For example Fonte scoring. The difference between luck and skill is that Fonte has ceased scoring and Khan continues to make money. Mo's money, property and PR men ran the football side of FFC? I think not.
Running a multi billion dollar business requires a lot more ability than the bumper business. I know a lot about bumpers, having spent most of my life in some aspect of automotive repair business but I'm no where near a billionaire. By your analogy, Mo's expertise in retail shouldn't have aided him in running FFC. Cream rises to the top. Be it bumpers or retail sales and hopefully history will repeat itself when it comes to football.
That's your view, certainly isn't mine, but you're entitled to it. All I'll say is it sounds awfully depressing to me to suggest the massive gap between your and Khan's respective success levels is down to an equally massive gap in your inherent personal abilities. If that's how you feel about yourself, so be it.
Khan had some success in the past, most of it in the 1980s probably, but these days does he even outperform the S&P500 year-on-year?
The whole point I'm making is MAF had extra people to whom he delegated running the club, rather than a naive belief that success in fashion retail/car bumpers qualified him as a football chairman.
As to "cream" rising to the top, we'll see. Khan's record at Fulham thus far suggests he's far from the "cream" of football chairmen, more like the scum or sediment that sinks to the bottom.... which rather reinforces my view that he has no useful talent outside the car bumper sector.
Khan kept the football people. Do you honestly believe that Khan discovered and bought Mitroglu or McCormack or Martin or Fonte? As a side note, would experience in bumpers or retail help a person pick a football man? For that matter is success at football a guarantee that there will be success in the future? I give you Felix and Moyes. Both had prior success and failed in their next go round. I don't think that Sir Alex could have saved us from relegation. Success is as much a manner of thinking as it is anything else. Will Khan succeed? If I said the head of Tesco just bought Fulham, would you be happy? The point being that a non football person in a time of unlimited spending could buy a successful team. A second non football person takes over in a time of controlled spending and gets an aged, run down and totally gutted team.....maybe timing and luck is the only answer. LOL
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 09:20:20 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 04, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
So, to become a billionaire means being lucky? That might explain why you and I aren't billionaires. This is nonsense. Being in the right place at the right time can be luck. For example Fonte scoring. The difference between luck and skill is that Fonte has ceased scoring and Khan continues to make money. Mo's money, property and PR men ran the football side of FFC? I think not.
Running a multi billion dollar business requires a lot more ability than the bumper business. I know a lot about bumpers, having spent most of my life in some aspect of automotive repair business but I'm no where near a billionaire. By your analogy, Mo's expertise in retail shouldn't have aided him in running FFC. Cream rises to the top. Be it bumpers or retail sales and hopefully history will repeat itself when it comes to football.
That's your view, certainly isn't mine, but you're entitled to it. All I'll say is it sounds awfully depressing to me to suggest the massive gap between your and Khan's respective success levels is down to an equally massive gap in your inherent personal abilities. If that's how you feel about yourself, so be it.
Khan had some success in the past, most of it in the 1980s probably, but these days does he even outperform the S&P500 year-on-year?
The whole point I'm making is MAF had extra people to whom he delegated running the club, rather than a naive belief that success in fashion retail/car bumpers qualified him as a football chairman.
As to "cream" rising to the top, we'll see. Khan's record at Fulham thus far suggests he's far from the "cream" of football chairmen, more like the scum or sediment that sinks to the bottom.... which rather reinforces my view that he has no useful talent outside the car bumper sector.
Khan kept the football people. Do you honestly believe that Khan discovered and bought Mitroglu or McCormack or Martin or Fonte? As a side note, would experience in bumpers or retail help a person pick a football man? For that matter is success at football a guarantee that there will be success in the future? I give you Felix and Moyes. Both had prior success and failed in their next go round. I don't think that Sir Alex could have saved us from relegation. Success is as much a manner of thinking as it is anything else. Will Khan succeed? If I said the head of Tesco just bought Fulham, would you be happy? The point being that a non football person in a time of unlimited spending could buy a successful team. A second non football person takes over in a time of controlled spending and gets an aged, run down and totally gutted team.....maybe timing and luck is the only answer. LOL
I can agree with a little of what you say.
One of the issues I do disagree fervently is, that any number of managers I am sure would have saved us from relegation, including Ferguson, and that is the tragedy. We drew the short straw with one of worst errors of judgement this club has ever made in the form of Felix Wolfgang Magath.
But that is now water under the bridge, nothing can be done to erase that, until we get back to the Premier League, and if we are going to measure and judge Mr Khan, then this is where we get the tape measure out, if he can orchestrate our return to the Premier League.
More to the point, how many decent players would want to join us? Almost zero chance of promotion this season, so at least one more in the Champ, a manager whose tactics and substitutions are baffling, a seemingly disfunctional management structure, the likelihood of 2 or 3 star players leaving at the end of this season. Not really an attractive proposition for someone with other options.
Quote from: Snibbo on December 05, 2017, 03:24:38 AM
More to the point, how many decent players would want to join us? Almost zero chance of promotion this season, so at least one more in the Champ, a manager whose tactics and substitutions are baffling, a seemingly disfunctional management structure, the likelihood of 2 or 3 star players leaving at the end of this season. Not really an attractive proposition for someone with other options.
You have basically said it all as it is. That is the reality facing us, and it's a fact, key points again.
1. Star quality key players leaving at end of season.
2. What kind of quality player would find us attractive enough to want to join us.
3. A seemingly disfunctional management structure, that appears to be fractured.
4. Team selection, tactics, substitutions and game management totally baffling.
5. Round pegs in square holes all over the pitch.
6. No visual Leadership on the pitch, and it appears not that much better off it.
Etc Etc.
All the signs of a team and club whose inconsistant results on the pitch with 6 wins out of twenty mirrors the problems off the pitch.
Then I check the League table and notice that we have yet to reach halfway, and there are still 26 matches left 78 points up for grabs to add to the 26 points already accumulated.
Not forgetting an FA Cup run, nobody should stick their noses up at that as winning can become a habit, and a good cup run can move in conjunction with a League play off place.
I know my Jam Tart is ruling my Loaf of Bread, but small miracles do happen.
To qualify for this small miracle, and I am hoping the club have targeted in January a Goalkeeper, a Centre Back, at least one Striker. That is the minimum requirement we need.
To give ourselves a fighting chance to avoid losing key players at the end of the season and obtain a top 6 place.
Without those reinforcements we can kiss any hope of that goodbye.
Knowing the way our club operates, the likelyhood of that happening is remote.
We haven't long to find out, important decisions have to be made quickly.
Or is it just wishful thinking and I shouldn't even contemplate thinking that the recruitment department are thinking on similiar lines.
Not forgetting where will that leave the current manager.
Not every human being wants to be rich and we are all migrants of some description whether macro or micro, a former or current generation. I believe there is both luck and desire at work when anyone not born with a mouthful of silver spoon makes big money. You choose to want to make loads of money, and then fortune plays its much bigger role.
Fulham buy/sign/employ someone and there is a percentage chance it'll work out well for both, a percentage chance it'll work out well for one party, and a percentage chance it won't work out for anyone at all. The percentages vary every time because it's the microcosm of all things although calculus suggests there is higher probability of an average outcome.
Individual choices have been made to get to the meeting of ways and from that point there flows an outcome determined by chance. And so when something works well, you learn, via experience, to keep hold of it, like you do friendship, because anything above average is good. And yet, when money interferes a lot of life principles get thrown out and bad things start to happen which may be mistaken for good.
I don't know what Fulham should do in January but I do know the Club needs to reflect more upon 'holding on to better than average' principle than the 'money talks louder' principle.
The Khans may not be the best people to understand that, since, when you have money, who are your real true friends?
Dream on....... surely by now everyone can see that NET spend will always be zero
So if we need new players, let's wish Ryan good luck at Spurs unless we get the one year loan back
I'm not sure Jan is the time to spend significant money anyway. It is a notoriously difficult time to identify and sign good players (unless you throw silly money away, which we won't and shouldn't).
We should probably focus on one position, CB in my view, and go after that. Leave the rest until the summer. Frustrating but as others have said the season has drifted away from us now and mid table is the likely endgame.
As to the OP, how much could we potentially spend within FFP, no idea but we must have some decent latitude.
We're definitely rubbish defensively at the moment, no doubt about that.
But is it the players we have, or our system? How can opponents cut straight through us and score from one of our attacks, like they Brentford did? The second goal was also sloppy defending.
Roy used to have us defending from the front. OK, so we play a far more adventurous system, that is great when it comes off, but we need to make it harder for teams to score against us, while putting the chances we create away at the other end.
Maybe new players would help, if we get the right ones in.
So much defeatism 'the season is over' etc. Why allow the recruitment team to get away with a poor January window because 'they are always difficult'?
The season isn't over by a long chalk and no window is destined to be poor unless you think that way.
We just need to be much more positive about our Club and not let one forty five minute nightmare drown out the good things that have happened in 2017.
Well if we are going to write off this season after 20 matches, then life is not worth living and we may as well end it all now via Beachy Head.
I cannot understand the people who have surrendered and thrown the towel in.
We are not even half way through the season, do people realise that if Fulham limp towards the end of the season with its head in it's hands, what the consequences will be.
The vultures are going to be circulating anyway, and if we look like a dead duck as well, we will not only lose our prize assets in the form of our key players, but also our credibility and stock.
You cannot concede that the season is over, and think by treading water until the summer is vision and foresight.
Because if you stand still you get overtaken.
I would like to think that some of you are made of sturdier stock than the players the club signed via their stats system.
Because sometimes you reap what you sow and get what you deserve.
So what are you, men or mice or do I need to throw down a piece of cheese to find out.
We may have hit the canvas, but it's no knockout, just a little winded.
I always measure a manager and a player and a supporter and a Football Club how they get up off the floor, not how they go down.
Thanks Twig for bringing the OP question back into focus:
Two thoughts - Does anyone know what we can spend (roughly) in Jan - irrespective of the reality?
Also, talk of Jan signings (which I support) does bring the focus back on the ever silent Messrs Talbot. I sincerely hope they are beavering away pursuing the Coach's hit list of new talent.
One request though, please keep away from the French Div 2 and any Portugese Leagues!
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 09:20:20 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 04, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
So, to become a billionaire means being lucky? That might explain why you and I aren't billionaires. This is nonsense. Being in the right place at the right time can be luck. For example Fonte scoring. The difference between luck and skill is that Fonte has ceased scoring and Khan continues to make money. Mo's money, property and PR men ran the football side of FFC? I think not.
Running a multi billion dollar business requires a lot more ability than the bumper business. I know a lot about bumpers, having spent most of my life in some aspect of automotive repair business but I'm no where near a billionaire. By your analogy, Mo's expertise in retail shouldn't have aided him in running FFC. Cream rises to the top. Be it bumpers or retail sales and hopefully history will repeat itself when it comes to football.
That's your view, certainly isn't mine, but you're entitled to it. All I'll say is it sounds awfully depressing to me to suggest the massive gap between your and Khan's respective success levels is down to an equally massive gap in your inherent personal abilities. If that's how you feel about yourself, so be it.
Khan had some success in the past, most of it in the 1980s probably, but these days does he even outperform the S&P500 year-on-year?
The whole point I'm making is MAF had extra people to whom he delegated running the club, rather than a naive belief that success in fashion retail/car bumpers qualified him as a football chairman.
As to "cream" rising to the top, we'll see. Khan's record at Fulham thus far suggests he's far from the "cream" of football chairmen, more like the scum or sediment that sinks to the bottom.... which rather reinforces my view that he has no useful talent outside the car bumper sector.
Khan kept the football people. Do you honestly believe that Khan discovered and bought Mitroglu or McCormack or Martin or Fonte? As a side note, would experience in bumpers or retail help a person pick a football man? For that matter is success at football a guarantee that there will be success in the future? I give you Felix and Moyes. Both had prior success and failed in their next go round. I don't think that Sir Alex could have saved us from relegation. Success is as much a manner of thinking as it is anything else. Will Khan succeed? If I said the head of Tesco just bought Fulham, would you be happy? The point being that a non football person in a time of unlimited spending could buy a successful team. A second non football person takes over in a time of controlled spending and gets an aged, run down and totally gutted team.....maybe timing and luck is the only answer. LOL
I can agree with a little of what you say.
One of the issues I do disagree fervently is, that any number of managers I am sure would have saved us from relegation, including Ferguson, and that is the tragedy. We drew the short straw with one of worst errors of judgement this club has ever made in the form of Felix Wolfgang Magath.
But that is now water under the bridge, nothing can be done to erase that, until we get back to the Premier League, and if we are going to measure and judge Mr Khan, then this is where we get the tape measure out, if he can orchestrate our return to the Premier League.
No manager would have saved us. Mo had lost interest and gave no support to the club that last year and a half. We had no players except cast offs. Strategy, no matter how skillful, is going to make a difference over the course of a season if you don't have players. We didn't have Red Nose, we had Jol, a clueless and disheartened man the world has never known. Felix was a shot at desperation. His resume said he'd be good. I think we'll agree that his resume lied. The problem wasn't Felix, he was simply another symptom. The problem began in Mo's neglect and was fueled by Jol's (and others) incompetence. We now have Khan as the sole person responsible for our future. Hopefully he'll do for us what he has done this year in Jacksonville. I won't mentioned that it took more years than necessary to turn that team around. The fact that he did so gives me hope. Fulham has two types of fans. Those of us who hope and wish for better times and those who just enjoy the failures.
Quote from: MikeW on December 05, 2017, 04:26:27 PM
Thanks Twig for bringing the OP question back into focus:
Two thoughts - Does anyone know what we can spend (roughly) in Jan - irrespective of the reality?
Also, talk of Jan signings (which I support) does bring the focus back on the ever silent Messrs Talbot. I sincerely hope they are beavering away pursuing the Coach's hit list of new talent.
One request though, please keep away from the French Div 2 and any Portugese Leagues!
Haha, I like the last sentence. As to the point about how much we could theoretically spend you would have to make some assumptions. I'm no expert on FFP but as I understand, the limits involve averaging net spend over 3? years. I have probably oversimplified but there are one or two on here who are experts on this. My point is that if we were to spend up to some theoretical maximum then presumably you would have to assume were spent net zero for 2 1/2 yrs afterwards. Is that right please? HELP!
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 05:13:44 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 09:20:20 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 04, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
So, to become a billionaire means being lucky? That might explain why you and I aren't billionaires. This is nonsense. Being in the right place at the right time can be luck. For example Fonte scoring. The difference between luck and skill is that Fonte has ceased scoring and Khan continues to make money. Mo's money, property and PR men ran the football side of FFC? I think not.
Running a multi billion dollar business requires a lot more ability than the bumper business. I know a lot about bumpers, having spent most of my life in some aspect of automotive repair business but I'm no where near a billionaire. By your analogy, Mo's expertise in retail shouldn't have aided him in running FFC. Cream rises to the top. Be it bumpers or retail sales and hopefully history will repeat itself when it comes to football.
That's your view, certainly isn't mine, but you're entitled to it. All I'll say is it sounds awfully depressing to me to suggest the massive gap between your and Khan's respective success levels is down to an equally massive gap in your inherent personal abilities. If that's how you feel about yourself, so be it.
Khan had some success in the past, most of it in the 1980s probably, but these days does he even outperform the S&P500 year-on-year?
The whole point I'm making is MAF had extra people to whom he delegated running the club, rather than a naive belief that success in fashion retail/car bumpers qualified him as a football chairman.
As to "cream" rising to the top, we'll see. Khan's record at Fulham thus far suggests he's far from the "cream" of football chairmen, more like the scum or sediment that sinks to the bottom.... which rather reinforces my view that he has no useful talent outside the car bumper sector.
Khan kept the football people. Do you honestly believe that Khan discovered and bought Mitroglu or McCormack or Martin or Fonte? As a side note, would experience in bumpers or retail help a person pick a football man? For that matter is success at football a guarantee that there will be success in the future? I give you Felix and Moyes. Both had prior success and failed in their next go round. I don't think that Sir Alex could have saved us from relegation. Success is as much a manner of thinking as it is anything else. Will Khan succeed? If I said the head of Tesco just bought Fulham, would you be happy? The point being that a non football person in a time of unlimited spending could buy a successful team. A second non football person takes over in a time of controlled spending and gets an aged, run down and totally gutted team.....maybe timing and luck is the only answer. LOL
I can agree with a little of what you say.
One of the issues I do disagree fervently is, that any number of managers I am sure would have saved us from relegation, including Ferguson, and that is the tragedy. We drew the short straw with one of worst errors of judgement this club has ever made in the form of Felix Wolfgang Magath.
But that is now water under the bridge, nothing can be done to erase that, until we get back to the Premier League, and if we are going to measure and judge Mr Khan, then this is where we get the tape measure out, if he can orchestrate our return to the Premier League.
No manager would have saved us. Mo had lost interest and gave no support to the club that last year and a half. We had no players except cast offs. Strategy, no matter how skillful, is going to make a difference over the course of a season if you don't have players. We didn't have Red Nose, we had Jol, a clueless and disheartened man the world has never known. Felix was a shot at desperation. His resume said he'd be good. I think we'll agree that his resume lied. The problem wasn't Felix, he was simply another symptom. The problem began in Mo's neglect and was fueled by Jol's (and others) incompetence. We now have Khan as the sole person responsible for our future. Hopefully he'll do for us what he has done this year in Jacksonville. I won't mentioned that it took more years than necessary to turn that team around. The fact that he did so gives me hope. Fulham has two types of fans. Those of us who hope and wish for better times and those who just enjoy the failures.
I totally disagree with you about the relegation season, and Magath who orchestrated our demise all on his own, the nightmare your mother told you about, and Khan gave him a licence to relegate Fulham FC, and the way he treated the senior professionals from Hangland downwards. This control freaks training regimes and the medieval rules he imposed to ruin any team spirit, putting Dan Burn at right back v Stoke, when 2 0 Up v Hull and proceeded to take a midfielder off, I think it was Scottie Parker and put Darren Bent on and we drew 2 2, Steve Bruce must have thought it was his birthday, that just 2 examples. Like many others I was in attendance for our last 9 matches Home and away, I saw it first hand at Motspur Park.
So urinating down my back and then telling me it's raining, does not wash with me.
As for Khan, I have no faith in him either, he can charm some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
He is no football man, or Fulham supporter and never will be.
He clearly forgets that you cannot bull shite a bull shiter.
So we will have to agree to disagree on this occasion.
Woolly, the team put on the filed by Jol and others was crap and they lost. Felix came in, put different crap on the field and we still lost. If Mo had stayed, we would still have been relegated. You can't redo two years of neglect with a management change. The team was well past its sell on date. So back to your next to last line. Cheers.
If the spend figures are calculated over 3 years, remember this is general loss so you have to factor wages as well as transfer money. If we have been running at say £10m a year spend, but last year net 0, then we could blow £20M and recapture that the season after next by selling Sess. Or to put it another way, risk blowing FFP with the knowledge that we could recapture a huge chunk by selling Sess sometime in the next 2 years.
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 05, 2017, 10:34:27 PM
If the spend figures are calculated over 3 years, remember this is general loss so you have to factor wages as well as transfer money. If we have been running at say £10m a year spend, but last year net 0, then we could blow £20M and recapture that the season after next by selling Sess. Or to put it another way, risk blowing FFP with the knowledge that we could recapture a huge chunk by selling Sess sometime in the next 2 years.
If the rumours that we had an 18 million pound bid for Gayle turned down are true, I think that must have been the thinkin. Also, it's bette to get someone in before you sell your asset as otherwise every selling club adds 20%(+) on the price
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 09:51:20 PM
Woolly, the team put on the filed by Jol and others was crap and they lost. Felix came in, put different crap on the field and we still lost. If Mo had stayed, we would still have been relegated. You can't redo two years of neglect with a management change. The team was well past its sell on date. So back to your next to last line. Cheers.
Jim, I still disagree with your opinion of the relegation year. Mo, he was getting on he wanted to sell up and had lost his appetite. Jol was feeding on scraps admittedly, but he had no stomach for a fight no desire, he took no interest what so ever in the Academy, he was thinking about his pension long before he was sacked, which was six months too late. A dead man walking and the Khans did not identify the signs that the manager they inherited was past his sell by date.
Didn't they do any research or gather any information about Jol, obviously not. They were complete amateurs and still are. Their naivety is only surpassed by their arrogance.
Khan should have sacked Jol the moment he walked into Craven Cottage, but because Khan his son and his enterage did not know the difference between a football and a snowball, they oversaw error of judgement after error of judgement, and they had the arrogance to think they can walk into our club and run it their way, as if they thought they knew better.
No it was not Alfayeds fault, even though he wasn't perfect.
But the club were unnecessary relegated under Khan and the wise one Magath, and we are still paying the price.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 11:36:28 PM
Jol was feeding on scraps admittedly, but he had no stomach for a fight no desire, he took no interest what so ever in the Academy, he was thinking about his pension long before he was sacked, which was six months too late.
I have to agree with you about Jol's delayed sacking, Woolly, but I was never happy about him arriving at Craven Cottage from the off because his best years were already a long way behind him. One of MAF's less cogent decisions IMHO.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 06, 2017, 08:39:21 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 11:36:28 PM
Jol was feeding on scraps admittedly, but he had no stomach for a fight no desire, he took no interest what so ever in the Academy, he was thinking about his pension long before he was sacked, which was six months too late.
I have to agree with you about Jol's delayed sacking, Woolly, but I was never happy about him arriving at Craven Cottage from the off because his best years were already a long way behind him. One of MAF's less cogent decisions IMHO.
Yes I agree Tosh, and didn't MAF appoint him after Mark Hughes departed the club, saying that Jol was always his first choice, which I thought at the time was unnecessary.
I have no faith in Khan and his team landing transfer targets early in January to transform the team. In addition in the main this season we have not played teams off the Park when we have won, unlike last season, so our form needs to be revolutionised if we are to take the division by storm in the second half of the season and make the top six.
Personally I think we are deluding ourselves if we think we are in with a realistic chance of a Play off spot given the games we have seen so far this season and the evidence of the last few January transfer windows.
I fear mid table mediocrity is the best we can hope for. As a consequence I really do not understand Khans strategy for our club but it is beginning to pee me off. Yet again just when it seems we are ready to progress upwards, at the end of last season, our owners shoot us/themselves in the foot
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 11:36:28 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 09:51:20 PM
Woolly, the team put on the filed by Jol and others was crap and they lost. Felix came in, put different crap on the field and we still lost. If Mo had stayed, we would still have been relegated. You can't redo two years of neglect with a management change. The team was well past its sell on date. So back to your next to last line. Cheers.
Jim, I still disagree with your opinion of the relegation year. Mo, he was getting on he wanted to sell up and had lost his appetite. Jol was feeding on scraps admittedly, but he had no stomach for a fight no desire, he took no interest what so ever in the Academy, he was thinking about his pension long before he was sacked, which was six months too late. A dead man walking and the Khans did not identify the signs that the manager they inherited was past his sell by date.
Didn't they do any research or gather any information about Jol, obviously not. They were complete amateurs and still are. Their naivety is only surpassed by their arrogance.
Khan should have sacked Jol the moment he walked into Craven Cottage, but because Khan his son and his enterage did not know the difference between a football and a snowball, they oversaw error of judgement after error of judgement, and they had the arrogance to think they can walk into our club and run it their way, as if they thought they knew better.
No it was not Alfayeds fault, even though he wasn't perfect.
But the club were unnecessary relegated under Khan and the wise one Magath, and we are still paying the price.
Agreed Mo lost his appetite which led to our demise. As I remember Jol was Mo's guy. He had tried to get him the previous year. If Khan had fired Jol immediately, his replacement might have had time to turn things around but he still would have had a team well past its sell on date. Might have worked. Course IF frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their arses.
Well lets take a deep breath and close our eyes and try to relax before Saturday when we really need a performance.
Unless we step up out of this rut we are in and regain a little composure there is a big risk that splashing cash in the winter window will be more money down the drain.
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 09:51:20 PM
If Mo had stayed, we would still have been relegated.
And if you throw an apple high enough, it will transform into a goose.
Of course I have no way of proving this wild statement but it's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, and I don't need to offer any evidence to support it.
As I said before "Fulham has two types of fans. Those of us who hope and wish for better times and those who just enjoy the failures."
I don't understand constant negativity. How do you explain it?
Quote from: SG on December 06, 2017, 05:03:11 PM
I have no faith in Khan and his team landing transfer targets early in January to transform the team. In addition in the main this season we have not played teams off the Park when we have won, unlike last season, so our form needs to be revolutionised if we are to take the division by storm in the second half of the season and make the top six.
Personally I think we are deluding ourselves if we think we are in with a realistic chance of a Play off spot given the games we have seen so far this season and the evidence of the last few January transfer windows.
I fear mid table mediocrity is the best we can hope for. As a consequence I really do not understand Khans strategy for our club but it is beginning to pee me off. Yet again just when it seems we are ready to progress upwards, at the end of last season, our owners shoot us/themselves in the foot
They call it Sustainability, which basically means we will be selling the club off as soon as we can get the right offer, in the meantime we will keep polishing the silver, and mow the grass playing surfaces and keep it up to scratch for the next Custodian to come in.
" what's that you say about the English Premier League " ? " never heard of it " !
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 06:08:37 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 05:13:44 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 05, 2017, 12:52:02 AM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 09:20:20 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 04, 2017, 05:30:28 PM
So, to become a billionaire means being lucky? That might explain why you and I aren't billionaires. This is nonsense. Being in the right place at the right time can be luck. For example Fonte scoring. The difference between luck and skill is that Fonte has ceased scoring and Khan continues to make money. Mo's money, property and PR men ran the football side of FFC? I think not.
Running a multi billion dollar business requires a lot more ability than the bumper business. I know a lot about bumpers, having spent most of my life in some aspect of automotive repair business but I'm no where near a billionaire. By your analogy, Mo's expertise in retail shouldn't have aided him in running FFC. Cream rises to the top. Be it bumpers or retail sales and hopefully history will repeat itself when it comes to football.
That's your view, certainly isn't mine, but you're entitled to it. All I'll say is it sounds awfully depressing to me to suggest the massive gap between your and Khan's respective success levels is down to an equally massive gap in your inherent personal abilities. If that's how you feel about yourself, so be it.
Khan had some success in the past, most of it in the 1980s probably, but these days does he even outperform the S&P500 year-on-year?
The whole point I'm making is MAF had extra people to whom he delegated running the club, rather than a naive belief that success in fashion retail/car bumpers qualified him as a football chairman.
As to "cream" rising to the top, we'll see. Khan's record at Fulham thus far suggests he's far from the "cream" of football chairmen, more like the scum or sediment that sinks to the bottom.... which rather reinforces my view that he has no useful talent outside the car bumper sector.
Khan kept the football people. Do you honestly believe that Khan discovered and bought Mitroglu or McCormack or Martin or Fonte? As a side note, would experience in bumpers or retail help a person pick a football man? For that matter is success at football a guarantee that there will be success in the future? I give you Felix and Moyes. Both had prior success and failed in their next go round. I don't think that Sir Alex could have saved us from relegation. Success is as much a manner of thinking as it is anything else. Will Khan succeed? If I said the head of Tesco just bought Fulham, would you be happy? The point being that a non football person in a time of unlimited spending could buy a successful team. A second non football person takes over in a time of controlled spending and gets an aged, run down and totally gutted team.....maybe timing and luck is the only answer. LOL
I can agree with a little of what you say.
One of the issues I do disagree fervently is, that any number of managers I am sure would have saved us from relegation, including Ferguson, and that is the tragedy. We drew the short straw with one of worst errors of judgement this club has ever made in the form of Felix Wolfgang Magath.
But that is now water under the bridge, nothing can be done to erase that, until we get back to the Premier League, and if we are going to measure and judge Mr Khan, then this is where we get the tape measure out, if he can orchestrate our return to the Premier League.
No manager would have saved us. Mo had lost interest and gave no support to the club that last year and a half. We had no players except cast offs. Strategy, no matter how skillful, is going to make a difference over the course of a season if you don't have players. We didn't have Red Nose, we had Jol, a clueless and disheartened man the world has never known. Felix was a shot at desperation. His resume said he'd be good. I think we'll agree that his resume lied. The problem wasn't Felix, he was simply another symptom. The problem began in Mo's neglect and was fueled by Jol's (and others) incompetence. We now have Khan as the sole person responsible for our future. Hopefully he'll do for us what he has done this year in Jacksonville. I won't mentioned that it took more years than necessary to turn that team around. The fact that he did so gives me hope. Fulham has two types of fans. Those of us who hope and wish for better times and those who just enjoy the failures.
I totally disagree with you about the relegation season, and Magath who orchestrated our demise all on his own, the nightmare your mother told you about, and Khan gave him a licence to relegate Fulham FC, and the way he treated the senior professionals from Hangland downwards. This control freaks training regimes and the medieval rules he imposed to ruin any team spirit, putting Dan Burn at right back v Stoke, when 2 0 Up v Hull and proceeded to take a midfielder off, I think it was Scottie Parker and put Darren Bent on and we drew 2 2, Steve Bruce must have thought it was his birthday, that just 2 examples. Like many others I was in attendance for our last 9 matches Home and away, I saw it first hand at Motspur Park.
So urinating down my back and then telling me it's raining, does not wash with me.
As for Khan, I have no faith in him either, he can charm some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.
He is no football man, or Fulham supporter and never will be.
He clearly forgets that you cannot bull shite a bull shiter.
So we will have to agree to disagree on this occasion.
Bravo!
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 06, 2017, 05:32:25 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 09:51:20 PM
If Mo had stayed, we would still have been relegated.
And if you throw an apple high enough, it will transform into a goose.
Of course I have no way of proving this wild statement but it's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, and I don't need to offer any evidence to support it.
As I said before "Fulham has two types of fans. Those of us who hope and wish for better times and those who just enjoy the failures."
I don't understand constant negativity. How do you explain it?
Repeating that comment devalues everything you say!
Quote from: Statto on December 06, 2017, 07:45:38 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 06, 2017, 05:32:25 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 05, 2017, 11:04:07 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on December 05, 2017, 09:51:20 PM
If Mo had stayed, we would still have been relegated.
And if you throw an apple high enough, it will transform into a goose.
Of course I have no way of proving this wild statement but it's my opinion, I'm entitled to it, and I don't need to offer any evidence to support it.
As I said before "Fulham has two types of fans. Those of us who hope and wish for better times and those who just enjoy the failures."
I don't understand constant negativity. How do you explain it?
Your statement that we'd have been relegated anyway seems rather negative to me, so I'm not sure how challenging it makes me negative.
Anyway, I might also say there are 2 types of fan, those who meekly "hope and wish" for change, and those who actually scrutinise, challenge, stir, protest and take action to deliver change.
Well said Statto re the two types of fans.
It could even be argued that there is a third type who wear rose tinted spectacles and can see no wrong in anyone from the chairman downwards despite over whelming evidence to the contrary.
Not buying that one. He clearly stated after the appointment of Jokanovic and his forst season in charge that he was prepared to do "whatever it takes " to get us back to the premiership.2016!!!
Quote from: MJG on December 04, 2017, 08:31:43 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 04, 2017, 07:58:20 AM
Then whatever it costs quote was made once about 4 years ago, maintaining the club as self sufficient has been made on numerous occasions. The word used is sustainability.
Khan does need to spend, but spend wisely. He has done that with players like Cairney, Fred, KMac, StefJo and others and spent badly on Fonte, Cisse and others as well. This is what happens at all clubs. Our problem is that the squad became unbalanced this summer with too many wingers and no real strengthening to the spine of the team. This is particularly poor because just about every bugger knew what was required and still is.
Beat me to it Stuart. It was actually in May 2014 just as we got relegated. I do believe he was, as in many things, quite naive to say that and didn't understand the true cost of relegation. In such we had to make cost cutting of the wages and shifting on many players. We failed FFP that season anyway and didnt do it enough.
So he could have gone down the QPR way of spending and not worrying about it, and we didn't.
But like many quotes from people this one has stuck around and comes back to haunt him. Although in truth he properly doesn't recall writing it.
A few reports today saying we after a left back,so door open for Spurs to sign Sess...
Or is he going go be moved forward full time ?
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on December 10, 2017, 11:50:17 AM
A few reports today saying we after a left back,so door open for Spurs to sign Sess...
Or is he going go be moved forward full time ?
The latter I hope. 🤞
People's determination to create binaries is nonsense, do we really have to be this explicitly tribal all the time?
Quote from: hopper on December 10, 2017, 12:34:21 PM
People's determination to create binaries is nonsense, do we really have to be this explicitly tribal all the time?
evidently, sad to say :012:
You know what they say - divisive leaders produce divisive politics. Just look how rich the cream of football are compared to the rest.....
Quote from: hopper on December 10, 2017, 12:34:21 PM
People's determination to create binaries is nonsense, do we really have to be this explicitly tribal all the time?
Queen Boadicea thought so.
Quote from: davew on December 03, 2017, 07:37:42 PM
I am just as worried about future years when we have to take into account some hefty losses getting rid of some of the players we signed in the last window and won't be worth anywhere near what we paid for them!
That is right , the reported fee paid for Fonte was something like £7m, £8m, or £9m. After 16 matches it is hard to see anyone paying a penny for him so it is likely he will stay with us for the next two and a half years making use of good training facilities and enjoying a fat regular pay packet.
