There has been a lot of discussion on the board about whether Joka stays, whether he gets the January transfer window to address issues not resolved in the summer under Kline and what, if anything, changes now Kline has left.
Originally we set our stall out after Magath's fiasco of a reign that Mike Rigg was Director of Football and therefore we needed a Head Coach not a Manager. On those terms Slavisa signed (finally), similar to his role at Watford. He has bitched and moaned at every transfer break about lack of involvement in transfers and someone did the research, he did the same at Watford.
Rigg had some pedigree and was a "football man" so on one level it made sense. Roll the clock forward and Rigg leaves and this February Tony Khan steps up to Director of Football Operations - slight difference, probably to address the fact he does not know that much about Football and Kline was Assistant Director of Football. We experience a very mixed summer signing window and last January's was farcical, Joka throws his hands up in despair and starts ignoring some of the signings just on their links to Kline. Rumors arise that Kline is also trying to influence match day selection. Happily for all involved Khan senior finally kicks Kline out.
At the moment Kline has not been replaced but James Lovell, already in the stats group would fill in, so it comes down to Khan and Brian Talbot so I fully expect we go from the two boxes ticked to three boxes ticked, Coach, Scouting and Stats and hopefully some of the more hard line rules such as age and no-one from lower divisions will get set aside.
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him. Having an inexperienced and willing son of the owner is fine from a generic business basis, negotiating contracts etc but he cannot advise Slavisa, he just will not be listened to if nothing else. Ali Mac is supposedly the business brain so maybe Tony Khan's role is duplication but you get to write the rules when you are the boss.
So I hope whether Joka stays or goes at some point we get in a real Director of Football or change to a Manager.
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2017, 12:54:47 AM
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 10, 2017, 11:05:08 PM
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him.
So if the problem according to you is "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions", and the solution according to you is (if we don't sack Jokanovic) to bring in a DoF, then it can only follow that what you are actually suggesting, to be clear, is we bring in a DoF and let him interfere with Jokanovic's team selection and substitution decisions. Not sure that one is going to fly to be honest with you 079.gif
I understand that may be naive but the frustration is that in any other business when something is not working there are efforts to help or fix it - at a senior level it happens as well as standard employees. Yet in football we leave these "managers" with varying degrees of skills to sink or swim ...we all like what Joka has brought us in terms of some great football and a style but this is a guy who has never been in any job longer than 2 seasons. How is he supposed to learn if he is just left on his own? We all need some help and I don't think Stuart Grey is working ....
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Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 10, 2017, 11:05:08 PM
There has been a lot of discussion on the board about whether Joka stays, whether he gets the January transfer window to address issues not resolved in the summer under Kline and what, if anything, changes now Kline has left.
Originally we set our stall out after Magath's fiasco of a reign that Mike Rigg was Director of Football and therefore we needed a Head Coach not a Manager. On those terms Slavisa signed (finally), similar to his role at Watford. He has bitched and moaned at every transfer break about lack of involvement in transfers and someone did the research, he did the same at Watford.
Rigg had some pedigree and was a "football man" so on one level it made sense. Roll the clock forward and Rigg leaves and this February Tony Khan steps up to Director of Football Operations - slight difference, probably to address the fact he does not know that much about Football and Kline was Assistant Director of Football. We experience a very mixed summer signing window and last January's was farcical, Joka throws his hands up in despair and starts ignoring some of the signings just on their links to Kline. Rumors arise that Kline is also trying to influence match day selection. Happily for all involved Khan senior finally kicks Kline out.
At the moment Kline has not been replaced but James Lovell, already in the stats group would fill in, so it comes down to Khan and Brian Talbot so I fully expect we go from the two boxes ticked to three boxes ticked, Coach, Scouting and Stats and hopefully some of the more hard line rules such as age and no-one from lower divisions will get set aside.
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him. Having an inexperienced and willing son of the owner is fine from a generic business basis, negotiating contracts etc but he cannot advise Slavisa, he just will not be listened to if nothing else. Ali Mac is supposedly the business brain so maybe Tony Khan's role is duplication but you get to write the rules when you are the boss.
So I hope whether Joka stays or goes at some point we get in a real Director of Football or change to a Manager.
Also this idea of a 'manager' doesn't fly with smaller clubs like ourselves.
Teams that we should be looking to emulate, Watford, Southampton etc all function with a Head Coach and it works very well for the. Southampton's process in regards to replacing the conveyor belt of poached talent (Shaw, Lovren, Schneiderlin, etc) is exactly what we need to be doing and when you look at our setup with Huw Jennings and Malcolm Elias it doesnt take a brain surgeon to consider that this might well be the model we looking at. Now, dont get me wrong, the current set up is poor but Joka seems to be the right guy and I for one would be happy to see him with until at lest the end of his contract.
The tricky bit for me is the DOF role, people want a 'football man' to which I offer Rigg, Dougie Freedman, etc as reasons why that's too simplistic a view. In an ideal world, I would look for a Rasmus Ankersen who can hold this all together who isnt a household name (lets face it, the reason these ex-players get a job is because there is a lack of imagination in most club management structures - see: Allardyce, Pardew last week) but offers a philosophy we can all get behind. I am a big fan of what we are trying to do and a few tweaks will see us home.
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 11, 2017, 02:30:56 AM
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2017, 12:54:47 AM
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 10, 2017, 11:05:08 PM
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him.
So if the problem according to you is "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions", and the solution according to you is (if we don't sack Jokanovic) to bring in a DoF, then it can only follow that what you are actually suggesting, to be clear, is we bring in a DoF and let him interfere with Jokanovic's team selection and substitution decisions. Not sure that one is going to fly to be honest with you 079.gif
I understand that may be naive but the frustration is that in any other business when something is not working there are efforts to help or fix it - at a senior level it happens as well as standard employees. Yet in football we leave these "managers" with varying degrees of skills to sink or swim ...we all like what Joka has brought us in terms of some great football and a style but this is a guy who has never been in any job longer than 2 seasons. How is he supposed to learn if he is just left on his own? We all need some help and I don't think Stuart Grey is working ....
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May I ask what evidence suggests to you that Stuart Gray isn't working?
Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?
The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 11, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?
The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.
Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.
Quote from: Marcel_Gecov on December 11, 2017, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 11, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?
The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.
Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.
I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 11, 2017, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Marcel_Gecov on December 11, 2017, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 11, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?
The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.
Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.
I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?
Usual story regarding DOF vs Manager argument. IMO shows a lack of understanding as to how it works. It isn't the DOF's job to help with subs etc, if Joka needs help with that he isnt right. For what it's worth, I dont think he does need help with this, the problem is our bench options arent good enough and that makes making positive changes tricky.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 11, 2017, 10:58:16 AM
I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?
I think you know exactly what has been going on. A few others may tumble soon, hopefully.
Quote from: Statto on December 11, 2017, 01:08:08 PM
Quote from: Marcel_Gecov on December 11, 2017, 11:06:34 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 11, 2017, 10:58:16 AM
Quote from: Marcel_Gecov on December 11, 2017, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 11, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?
The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.
Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.
I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?
Usual story regarding DOF vs Manager argument. IMO shows a lack of understanding as to how it works. It isn't the DOF's job to help with subs etc, if Joka needs help with that he isnt right. For what it's worth, I dont think he does need help with this, the problem is our bench options arent good enough and that makes making positive changes tricky.
The thing is the OP seems to be suggesting either (a) bring in a DoF to do half of the current coach's job for him, thereby diminishing the coach's role, or (b) swap the coach for a "manager" with a much broader role than the current coach... (a) and (b) seem contradictory To me .., maybe this is causing the confusion
Indeed, it comes down to the structure of the business and to swap to a manager will require another restructure. Not going to happen IMO. What we need is a DOF with a tangible vision which almost can be recited in a single sentence - "to grow a team of excellent youngsters with compelling resell value." What we've had is a stats team which hasnt worked well and a diminished scouting team (allegedly)
OK! It seems our club is following the line that Managers/Head coaches (call them whatever you like) come and go and to avoid the massive changes every time this happens, you put a different structure in place to minimize the fall out.
So we can have a DoF and other permanent staff such as Grant, Wigely & Gray as well as the HC and his team. That's not rocket science but even if the idea is the HC concentrates on running the 1st team and not the recruitment surely the HC has to be part of the recruitment process as he's the one who ultimately succeeds or fails and has to work with the players.
I don't have a problem with a DoF type guy but there can only ever be 3 ticks ............ and the man who picks the team and sets it up has to have the final say on who's bought in!
1. Scouting and Stats find players and are ultimately under the leadership of a Director of Football or whatever you call him
2. The HC/Manager agrees with the choice and gives the go ahead to pursue the player.
3. The man who writes the cheques has to agree the players within our budget or at least a possibility.
There's the 3 ticks but while ultimately its down to cost it should never have got that far if the HC doesn't fancy the player earlier in the process.
Simple!
I agree with that approach as probably most of us do.
My original issue was not that i have an issue with DOF/HC structure rather that I don't think Tony Khan is qualified to be DOF and currently Jokanovic is on his own. I also do not think that the DOF should interfere in day to day coaching, however I also think Joka is struggling at times and the right DOF could give guidance or advice.
I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working as he had has been here 2 years and we still can't defend for sh1t and he stands right next to Slav when he has made some recent poor subs.
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Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 11, 2017, 03:08:51 PM
OK! It seems our club is following the line that Managers/Head coaches (call them whatever you like) come and go and to avoid the massive changes every time this happens, you put a different structure in place to minimize the fall out.
So we can have a DoF and other permanent staff such as Grant, Wigely & Gray as well as the HC and his team. That's not rocket science but even if the idea is the HC concentrates on running the 1st team and not the recruitment surely the HC has to be part of the recruitment process as he's the one who ultimately succeeds or fails and has to work with the players.
I don't have a problem with a DoF type guy but there can only ever be 3 ticks ............ and the man who picks the team and sets it up has to have the final say on who's bought in!
1. Scouting and Stats find players and are ultimately under the leadership of a Director of Football or whatever you call him
2. The HC/Manager agrees with the choice and gives the go ahead to pursue the player.
3. The man who writes the cheques has to agree the players within our budget or at least a possibility.
There's the 3 ticks but while ultimately its down to cost it should never have got that far if the HC doesn't fancy the player earlier in the process.
Simple!
The current Director of Football who happens to be the Chairman's son, gosh, golly, there's a surprise. With Kline is are were the Catalysts in all our issues of failure, like Kline, Khan Junior is unqualified and an amateur at his roll, and until he is replaced or sent to the Tower of London, Jok I doubt will never be happy.
The team performance should be the responsibility of one person, split the job and when things get sticky each person will take 5% responsibility.
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 11, 2017, 03:22:23 PM
I agree with that approach as probably most of us do.
My original issue was not that i have an issue with DOF/HC structure rather that I don't think Tony Khan is qualified to be DOF and currently Jokanovic is on his own. I also do not think that the DOF should interfere in day to day coaching, however I also think Joka is struggling at times and the right DOF could give guidance or advice.
I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working as he had has been here 2 years and we still can't defend for sh1t and he stands right next to Slav when he has made some recent poor subs.
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May I ask what proof you have that Stuart Gray is offering advice for defenders? He is essentially an assistant and carries out what Joka suggests. Also we don't know their relationship and it might be Joka simply thinks they'd work well together and enjoys keeping him around.
Fans cannot simply decide people are succeeding in their roles without knowing their job roles. I could decide that Albee Escobar should be fired because against Preston for example we let Jordan Hugill score and we should have known they'd simply knock the ball into the box and Escobar complies the opposition video so he's culpable. It's a laughable position and we will never know the dynamics.
However, the arrangement has lasted 100games and I'm sure it'll be fine moving forwards.
Quote from: Marcel_Gecov on December 11, 2017, 06:41:47 PM
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 11, 2017, 03:22:23 PM
I agree with that approach as probably most of us do.
My original issue was not that i have an issue with DOF/HC structure rather that I don't think Tony Khan is qualified to be DOF and currently Jokanovic is on his own. I also do not think that the DOF should interfere in day to day coaching, however I also think Joka is struggling at times and the right DOF could give guidance or advice.
I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working as he had has been here 2 years and we still can't defend for sh1t and he stands right next to Slav when he has made some recent poor subs.
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May I ask what proof you have that Stuart Gray is offering advice for defenders? He is essentially an assistant and carries out what Joka suggests. Also we don't know their relationship and it might be Joka simply thinks they'd work well together and enjoys keeping him around.
Fans cannot simply decide people are succeeding in their roles without knowing their job roles. I could decide that Albee Escobar should be fired because against Preston for example we let Jordan Hugill score and we should have known they'd simply knock the ball into the box and Escobar complies the opposition video so he's culpable. It's a laughable position and we will never know the dynamics.
However, the arrangement has lasted 100games and I'm sure it'll be fine moving forwards.
I agree it is easy for us to sit and pass judgement without knowing the underlying dynamics, in my defense I did say "I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working".
The point I think I have been making in an admittedly meandering way is that in successful businesses, generally, people are given support even at the top to help improve whereas with football that rarely seems the case. The average tenure of a Manager/Coach in the EFL is 16 months, Jokanovic is the 3rd longest serving manager in the Championship. They are generally isolated and when things on the field go wrong regardless of root cause they get fired. The more isolated they are the less likely they can get advice or counsel. If you have a good Director of Football they can help. In our case we have an absentee Chairman and an unqualified DoF in his son so I am arguing that Joka is isolated and would benefit from some support.
Anyway think I have flogged this to death....
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 10, 2017, 11:05:08 PM
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games
So last year we finished with 22 wins, 14 draws and 10 losses on the back of his "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions".
This year, 7W 8D 6L
We don't really have a stacked team of world beaters so for me, looking at it objectively, he's still performing well.
Stuart Grey is an experienced and respected coach, and I remember reading that he's noted for his work with defences.
Our own poor defending doesn't mean that he's no good, I don't think. I'm sure our defenders practise relevant drills etc, but obviously it's all different in an actual Championship game, when you are playing a team of players at least as good as you are, very driven to score against you, and win the game.
I think we are set out to attack, and this puts more pressure on the defence, especially when we don't take our chances up front. Then, if you go behind it becomes an even harder struggle for the defence.
Lately Slava has been bringing on Djalo when we are trying hold onto a one goal lead, and keeper and defence have been hoofing the ball upfield more near the end of games, and everyone getting back to defend.
The unmissable, ever present, actors in 'Comedy of Errors' which has been performed countless times at the Cottage, have been the ones running the player recruitment and retention processes.
Jokanovic, as he has said on many occasions, hasn't had even a bit part or walk on scene, and we can be pretty sure he has not played a meaningful role in selecting players to scout etc for a long time, if ever (because otherwise the Kline Saga scenes wouldn't have happened in any shape or form). And so any shake up needs to be about how recruitment operates and how that operation needs staffing. There seem to be at least two operational models available.
1)Allowing for the hit and miss element involved in all transfers there should be an average success rate across all transfer dealings in the EFL - one thing any bog standard PC could come up with much more successfully than being the key function in identifying talent - and it is upon that average that Fulham's recruitment success should be judged. We could measure the number of appearances or squad selections as the key measure of success or failure. If the average failure rate of transferred/loaned players is known to be about one player in four deals then our recruitment team fails if it hits a figure worse than one in four. That means heads will roll or feet will walk. That is treating the recruitment team in the same way as Jokanovic is judged - on performance.
2)The other, more traditional, way of doing things is to deal with recruitment as a Club business with one person prepared to bear ultimate responsibility for whole team decisions. It requires proper management and involves lots of hard work.
We have been down route two on numerous occasions and I really can't see us doing that any time soon with regards allowing a manager/head coach full control on who he wants and who he gets rid of.
Time and time again we are told Jokanovic is involved in transfers and we have been through the process on a number of threads so I am not going to repeat it all. Suffice to say, Jokanovic will say what he wants, ie type of player etc, he then has a veto if he doesn't want said player. What he doesn't do is identify players, but can and does make recommendations which may or may not get recruited. StefJo was a Slav recommendation.
Slav is not responsible for recruitment, but is involved in the process.
As for over 28 year players, we can sign these players but Khan junior has to approve, which he would anyway. It's just our model does not focus on these players as we are looking for players with value going forward.
I honestly don't understand why anyone has a problem with this model, it makes perfect sense.
What is odd is why the club thought signing multiple wingers and no centre back was a good idea. Why Slav didn't veto the 5th winger I don't know. As for the strikers, well they just haven't worked and that happens.
Quote from: MJG on December 12, 2017, 06:44:17 AM
We have been down route two on numerous occasions and I really can't see us doing that any time soon with regards allowing a manager/head coach full control on who he wants and who he gets rid of.
Perhaps you were mislead by 'my whole team decisions' expression, for which I apologise. What I meant was whole team as in whole FFC which is why I didn't say SJ in charge. I don't think he'd want it even if it was offered. A better solution would be CEO adhering to 'whole team majority decisions' which was what I imagine happened in the good old days or not as the case may be.
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 12, 2017, 08:19:01 AM
What is odd is why the club thought signing multiple wingers and no centre back was a good idea. Why Slav didn't veto the 5th winger I don't know. As for the strikers, well they just haven't worked and that happens.
A veto only has a point when you have a player who is already suited to the role you want him for and the 'newbie' is clearly not up to that standard. It is a classic case of SJ saying a role is already perfectly well covered (as in Aluko and Malone) so get me better or the equivalent of. The process is wholly flawed otherwise why were Malone and Aluko allowed to go without suitable replacement?
The process doesn't need vetoes it needs majority decision and much more hard work done by the whole recruitment team of which SJ is not a part.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 12, 2017, 08:34:43 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 12, 2017, 08:19:01 AM
What is odd is why the club thought signing multiple wingers and no centre back was a good idea. Why Slav didn't veto the 5th winger I don't know. As for the strikers, well they just haven't worked and that happens.
A veto only has a point when you have a player who is already suited to the role you want him for and the 'newbie' is clearly not up to that standard. It is a classic case of SJ saying a role is already perfectly well covered (as in Aluko and Malone) so get me better or the equivalent of. The process is wholly flawed otherwise why were Malone and Aluko allowed to go without suitable replacement?
The process doesn't need vetoes it needs majority decision and much more hard work done by the whole recruitment team of which SJ is not a part.
You know perfectly well why they went.
1. Aluko wanted a 4 year contract taking him to 32 years old and to be our highest paid player.
2. Malone was offered Premier League football and I expect wages.
We were offered excellent money for player we paid nothing for a year ago, suppose that was bad business was it ?
We got Soares to replace Malone, and Ojo plus Mollo plus Graham to replace Aluko for nothing giving us a net £12M profit to spend on desperately required strikers. Soares has clearly not worked out and looks like a bad mistake however Ojo has been good. The problem is also Fonte has not worked and we didn't get a upgrade at centre half.
Like most things in football it's easy to be wise and smart after the event, transfers are always a risk, Fulham make plenty as do all clubs.
@FulhamStu
I don't at all know why they went and you using well oiled anecdotes doesn't justify anything.
Fulham always have been a selling club but you do not sell key first team players unless you know you can replace them or have replaced them with better, neither of these requirements having been met with Malone and arguably inadequately met with Aluko.
Or is football all about how much money you make? If that is so then surely getting into the PL and staying there would be the real earner. Another reason for sticking with Malone and Aluko. Fulham could have been a lot more sustainable without squandering money on Fonte and Kamara by letting two good squad players go so very, very easily.
I'm nor sure how we could have kept Aluko and Malone, but, as said, we got good money for them and replacements.
I feel that Kamara, and even Fonte could work out - they have both improved, particularly kamara, while Soares has hardly featured in the senior squad, but is supposed to have fitness issues - so he could possibly come good.
Odoi has been the best of the attempts to replace 'Malone' and was already with us. Problem is that with injuries to Ream or Kalas mean he cannot cover both central and wide defenders. In other words the sale of Malone was short sighted and the stated replacement hasn't figured much at all for whatever reason in almost five months. The Aluko situation has not been a like-for-like otherwise Ojo/Graham would have slotted in from the start. We have struggled and only Ayite and Kebano have really shown the necessary skill sets to suit the playing style of the side in the wider positions.
No doubt a more settled core team without the injury problems would have been a better place to settle in the newbies but again selling twenty percent of your first team squad rather than at least trying to retain them has made the injury toll show up as an even greater problem than it may otherwise have been. How fit were Malone and Aluko last season and this?
It is short sighted dealings that have blighted the season to date and the recruitment must take the blame for that.
Quote from: toshes mate on December 12, 2017, 09:53:43 AM
@FulhamStu
I don't at all know why they went and you using well oiled anecdotes doesn't justify anything.
Fulham always have been a selling club but you do not sell key first team players unless you know you can replace them or have replaced them with better, neither of these requirements having been met with Malone and arguably inadequately met with Aluko.
Or is football all about how much money you make? If that is so then surely getting into the PL and staying there would be the real earner. Another reason for sticking with Malone and Aluko. Fulham could have been a lot more sustainable without squandering money on Fonte and Kamara by letting two good squad players go so very, very easily.
But when you look at subsequent facts is our squad genuinely weaker? Aluko has scored 2 in 16 this seasom whilst Ojo has 3 in 10 - as a direct comparison we have traded upwards based on this year. Aluko scored 8 in 47 last year, if we extrapolate Ojo's goals over the same amount of games you are looking at 14-15. This is clearly an upgrade on goals. On assists, they are about square. Obviously this is all pie in the sky and Ojo could be wiped out for the season next match however this transfer hasn't worked out badly so far.
I'd really like to believe the squad will come good once Piazon and Ayite are back and available, and Johansen's persistent injury is sorted. They did the business last time and we know they are capable of the desired results. That is where I differ from you with Malone and Aluko - we knew what we were getting from them and played to that. By all means back them up with players like Ojo, Soares, but don't sell them until you know the newbies have what it takes. When you have something that works you keep it until you have something better, but you don't sell a good time keeper for one that tells the time accurately only twice a day.
Quote from: VancouverWhite on December 12, 2017, 04:45:03 AM
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 10, 2017, 11:05:08 PM
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games
So last year we finished with 22 wins, 14 draws and 10 losses on the back of his "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions".
This year, 7W 8D 6L
We don't really have a stacked team of world beaters so for me, looking at it objectively, he's still performing well.
I think this season's figures are similar to what Kit had when we gave him the sack, am I not right.
Quote from: Statto on December 12, 2017, 12:03:40 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 12, 2017, 08:19:01 AM
Suffice to say, Jokanovic will say what he wants, ie type of player etc, he then has a veto if he doesn't want said player. What he doesn't do is identify players, but can and does make recommendations which may or may not get recruited.
Without, as you say, repeating previous discussion, there's a lot of assumption in your explanation there about how the system works in practical terms, and even if all those assumptions are correct, still a lot of gaps and ambiguity in that explanation. It all sounds to me like Jokanovic has a say in transfers in much the same way that citizens in Hong Kong have a say in their elections.
I think this is correct. But may be due to the nature of his relationship with Kline which was poisonous and none of us know whether they were even on speaking terms over the summer. Joka may well have 'game of throne'd' a situation to get rid of Kline and improve his old 'power' without the club (this has to be the case otherwise you'd surely just walk). It's all speculation anyway, and only in Jan will we start to see answers. I am interested to see whether the process changes in Jan. The key indicator for me will be whether Joka speaks out on transfers again, if he doesn't, we can assume things have changed.
This years squad is weaker if you take into account the starting 11. Our best 11 last year trumps this years starting 11 and that's the point of the squad. Creating the most competitive starting 11. Its more unbalanced hence why I think we're seeing strange lineups with no strikers etc.
Quote from: filham on December 12, 2017, 11:56:13 AM
Quote from: VancouverWhite on December 12, 2017, 04:45:03 AM
Quote from: YoungsBitter on December 10, 2017, 11:05:08 PM
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games
So last year we finished with 22 wins, 14 draws and 10 losses on the back of his "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions".
This year, 7W 8D 6L
We don't really have a stacked team of world beaters so for me, looking at it objectively, he's still performing well.
I think this season's figures are similar to what Kit had when we gave him the sack, am I not right.
Not sure but I think it is similar to last year W8 D8 L5
Quote from: Statto on December 12, 2017, 12:03:40 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on December 12, 2017, 08:19:01 AM
Suffice to say, Jokanovic will say what he wants, ie type of player etc, he then has a veto if he doesn't want said player. What he doesn't do is identify players, but can and does make recommendations which may or may not get recruited.
Statto, I am repeating what Tony Khan has said on a number of occasions. You can choose not believe him if you like, but that's what he said.
As for the Malone and Aluko debate, if money were no object, yes I would have liked them both to stay. All clubs, even Man U sell when they have too (Ronaldo), it's not a case of selling and not buying, we spent the £12M on Fonte and Kamara, that's been the problem. Yes I think we still have money to spend if the right players become avail because we have not over net spent.
I guess my main issue is I would not have made Aluko our highest paid player and given him a 4 year contract whereas Toshes Mate presumably would have. We did fail to properly replace Malone because Soares has so far not worked out, I was hoping Soares would have been an upgrade as I expect the club were, also suspect the clubs priority was Sessegnon, who we all want to see played further forward but have a no 3on his back which probably tells you all you need to know. Good debate.
Without, as you say, repeating previous discussion, there's a lot of assumption in your explanation there about how the system works in practical terms, and even if all those assumptions are correct, still a lot of gaps and ambiguity in that explanation. It all sounds to me like Jokanovic has a say in transfers in much the same way that citizens in Hong Kong have a say in their elections.
Sorry above reply was to Satto's point below my reply and previous discussion with Toshes mate.
My response to some of the comments above ............
The so called poor substitutions and stubborn team selections is a a bit of a red herring, I.e. a distraction!
A blind man can see we have a stronger squad but weaker starting eleven.
I accept the realities of life mean the loss of Malone and Aluko for the reasons given and its normal the Manager/Head Coach can be overruled in such cases.
But I refuse to accept the Head Coach has a veto on signings, therefore he has been presented with players strongly recommended by Kline and pushed trough by Khan Jnr that to one degree or another he doesn't rate.
There were excellent players in the Tigana promotion side who were almost ever presents that year and important in our success but struggled to maintain their position in the PL, so the age thing is another mistake.
I would love to see a list of signings that Slav was on board with and those he would have vetoed given the chance.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 12, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
My response to some of the comments above ............
I would love to see a list of signings that Slav was on board with and those he would have vetoed given the chance.
So would I, but I fear any lists you mention, have been shredded.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 14, 2017, 03:06:52 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 12, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
My response to some of the comments above ............
I would love to see a list of signings that Slav was on board with and those he would have vetoed given the chance.
So would I, but I fear any lists you mention, have been shredded.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 14, 2017, 03:06:52 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 12, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
My response to some of the comments above ............
I would love to see a list of signings that Slav was on board with and those he would have vetoed given the chance.
So would I, but I fear any lists you mention, have been shredded.
If the FST meetings are supposedly such an open exchange of views and information we should be asking for this sort of information, but I feel that the club officials that attend the events are given a very easy ride.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on December 14, 2017, 08:01:30 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 14, 2017, 03:06:52 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 12, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
My response to some of the comments above ............
I would love to see a list of signings that Slav was on board with and those he would have vetoed given the chance.
So would I, but I fear any lists you mention, have been shredded.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on December 14, 2017, 03:06:52 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on December 12, 2017, 01:51:50 PM
My response to some of the comments above ............
I would love to see a list of signings that Slav was on board with and those he would have vetoed given the chance.
So would I, but I fear any lists you mention, have been shredded.
If the FST meetings are supposedly such an open exchange of views and information we should be asking for this sort of information, but I feel that the club officials that attend the events are given a very easy ride.
they are not, but that's up to you to believe or not.
We have asked for similar lists and while they may give one or two away.. Johansen for example as being a Slav pick, they are not going to produce a list as you request.
