The power of owners with no real understanding of football to hire and fire has created some major mismatches in managerial appointments in recent times.
When David Moyes got the Manchester United job a few years back ,he was a star on the rise and had previously done a fantastic job at Everton, playing in a 451 system with inverted wingers that although hardly revolutionary ,made the blues a match for any team in the premier league on their day .Indeed many other teams in the league adopted this style. Sir Alex himself was said to be firmly behind Moyes recruitment. The problems were that a) Uniteds swashbuckling style under Ferguson was based on getting crosses into the opposing box and attacking with six players at a time and b)It was an attacking philosophy with fluidity and interchanging of positions lightyears away from Moyes more pragmatic approach. The unted fans were never going to like the change in approach under the new man and the players had problems buying into it as well.
We all know about the great job that Roy did at Craven Cottage . When he left for Liverpool it was also blatantly obvious that two banks of four with two strikers where the emphasis was on defense and organisition was never going to work on Merseyside. The history ,culture and philosophy of the club and its fans needed and wanted charisma not pragmatism. Roy went on to buy ,like Moyes ,players that would fit into his system of playing. Many of these players were not deemed good enough by the fans to play for these big clubs.
The appointments of Hodgson and Moyes were destined to fail from day one , and I'm still amazed that the powers that be in both huge clubs were not savvy enough to work it out.
Claudio Ranieri recently won the premier league and is a hugely respected manager . Unfortunately these merits have been of little use to him in taking over a Fulham squad bought into a side with a ball playing philosophy. Centre backs defensive midfielders , and even goalkeepers were brought to to club for their ability with the ball at their feet not just their speed or physicality. Whilst it can clearly be argued that Jokanovic and the club hierarchy seriously underestimated the quality of teams in the division ,they had also clearly forgotten how brutally teams get punished in attacking transition when losing possesion. We were still good at retaining the ball but more mistakes were always going to be made against superior opposition, and we all know what happened next. I suppose we all got carried away with the amazing football that the team played last year and never thought for a moment what would happen if it didnt work, since in that case we had clearly set ourselves up to fail.
Ranieri ,like Moyes and indeed Hodgson before him, are not clueless mangers ,they are all victims of the situations they took on . Hired for their previous successes at clubs suited to their beliefs in the way the game should be played, and mocked for their attempts to implement that very philosophy at their new clubs, where the set up was never going to be suitable for success.
Slavisa Jokanovic probably had to be replaced after 6 league defeats on the bounce,sadly. The Khans made a well intended appointment in Ranieri ,but like Liverpool and Manchester United before them ,picked a manager who simply didnt fit.
We still have 12 games left to play ,and we cant get Slavisa back ,so where do we go from here ? We dont have much of a chance to stay up ,but we are not down yet either. If we are to go for a different manager then for me it has to be someone taking us back to our ball playing style,and lets at least give it everything and get all our best players on the pitch at the same time.
Ranieri has my support as long as he is at the club,and although the many problems are obvious to one and all I cant see him throwing the towel in.
Very fair and even handed assessment. Colin, why do you think Ranieri's performances at Leicester fell off so dramatically just one season later? He still had most of the core of his Prem winning squad and money to spend.
Brilliant opening post and sums up my thought 100%. Raniere is not a good fit with the players we have. Saying that I also believe that most of last years squad who were still at the club at the start of the season are no where near premiership class.
Leicester overperformed the year they won the league, they were carried along on a crest of a wave, they rode their luck and as a result every time they walked on the pitch they were always confident of winning. Success breeds confidence. They were also helped by the other top teams underperforming and dropping stupid points.
Very good post Colin. Decisions made on changes just as in Transfers are made with the right intentions, sometimes they work, other times they don't.
My mate is a life long Foxes fan and I said that, as an outsider, I thought Ranieri had tried to change their style in the following season and this did not work, and he said that was it. As soon as he was sacked and Craig Shakespeare took over he made them go back to their old style and that worked. The Tinkerman up to his old tricks once again.
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Twig .I think he was a little bit of a victim of his own success .Leicester and that group of players over-achieved (no intention of belittling that success by the way ) .It only had one way to go after winning the league and all the ohther teams having `worked out `how to play against them. Fine margins.
The history ,culture and philosophy of the club and its fans needed and wanted charisma not pragmatism. Roy went on to buy ,like Moyes ,players that would fit into his system of playing. Many of these players wee not deemed good enough by the fans to play for these big clubs.
This, colinwhite, is, IMO, sheer brilliance in providing a profound understanding as to why some things fit together neatly and tidily and others cannot even be forced into place. It works for almost everything you are ever likely to encounter in life inside or outside football. If it works understand why it worked. If it doesn't work understand why it doesn't work. But never try to force an idea to provide you with what you think you deserve.
Excellent post. You are I believe right in stating the type of manager we now need. Jokanovic has gone but we do need someone who can continue that style of play ( before it is completely eradicated and lost ). The only point I do disagree with is the conuing support of Ranieri . Whilst I don't dislike the guy and also respect what he has accomplished in his career - we need to begin to re build and re focus for next season . A new manager has to come in and assess the dressing room and the characters ( this isn't just about watching the games or videos) . Then he can confront the recruitment team with a list of what he needs to rebuild this proud and wonderful club . - and surely this time they must listen and , as importantly, act in time.
We need our Fulham back ( sense of Groundhog Day )
Very elequantly put Colin, but where do we go from here.
Because my biggest concern is that the Khans never seem to learn, even the bleeding obvious. There is a pattern especially in recruitment which has been complete buffoonary
of the highest order.
But I also fear it is not currently a happy ship to work for, and sometimes those tenticles of low morale and mediocre work ethics, and a fractured set up, including conflicts of interest can eventually spread throughout the club.
There is no smoke without fire, and we are witnessing the fall out on and off the pitch.
Hv71. I will continue to support whoever runs the team,whether it be my choice or not. I wouldnt have appointed Ranieri as it was clearly not what was needed ,but he is still our manager.
A very good post Collinwhite, well thought through and accurate.
Hard to see what the next move is , we now have a manager and players not singing from the same hymn sheet so either we have to change the players or the manager. The big problem is of course that our board do not have the football experience to choose either the right players or the right manager.
Quote from: colinwhite on February 10, 2019, 10:59:05 AM
Hv71. I will continue to support whoever runs the team,whether it be my choice or not. I wouldnt have appointed Ranieri as it was clearly not what was needed ,but he is still our manager.
Totally understand- my thoughts were really about the mid term future. I will support the team come what may but not necessarily the playing strategy
I'm sorry to say it but we are going down now. Ranieri has failed in his efforts to keep us up. Unfortunately he didn't have the skill. He doesn't need to go immediately but he can go before the end of the season and a caretaker can be brought in. We can blood some young players for the last few matches and then prepare for next season in the Championship.
So where has the fault been? There have been plenty that have nothing to do with Ranieri but unfortunately he has not got the knowledge to alter things in the time he had left. In other words he had no chance from day 1
We cannot know exactly where the faults have been we can only speculate. However the team is not playing with fire in its belly which shows exactly how much power players have. Loan signings do not seem to work as players on loan know that they are back with their parent club soon.
The Khan's have certainly spent enough cash to keep a team up but they were starting from not having a big enough squad to start with. Hopefully this will be rectified over the summer. The next time we need all the right people in the right place from day one. After last season the fans were ready and so should everyone else have been. I feel the scouting should have been better as there are players who were clearly a waste of money and no improvement on what we had.
We now need to resign ourselves to the inevitable and enjoy the football to the end of the season when we can start again.
We should have been at least equal to teams like Watford, Crystal Palace Brighton and Burnley and even Bournemouth yet we have fallen well short.
Let's Learn and try again
Broadly agree with the OP.
An argument I often hear for a transfer system like ours where the manager has limited involvement, is that managers often don't stick around for long, and if you let them pick all the players, the players need to be replaced every year when the manager changes. Well the points made by the OP show why that argument is total bo11ocks.
If you want to avoif high player turnover, you need either to make a long-term DoF appointment then let him decide the club's high level tactical identity, or stick with the same manager long-term like Bournemouth and Burnley have done.
There is only one positive for me about the reality that we are going down. It's that this time, unlike last year, we do have time to plan. I think Colin's well reasoned argument is the right direction. I don't want Big Sam brought in - we need a manager who understands the balance required in the Championship between hard nosed defenders like Scott Dann - and TK rip up this obsession with 28 year old age limit, we'll need a few mature characters - plus a bit of magic up top. We're going to lose Mitro, Sess, Seri, - the loans will go - and I'm not sure what KMac & Stefan are going to bring second time around. So we need to decide on next season's manager now and plan for a rebuild that this time should include O'Riley, Steven Sessegnon, De La Torre as a starting point.
Also FWIW I still think Joka's philosophy would have worked in the PL if given time. We wouldn't have beaten Man City but we'd have beaten Cardiff, Huddersfield, Brighton, Southampton et al if the players had been signed early enough to train together. That would have kept us up and Joka's style was (unlike the less sophisticated alternatives) one that we could have built on and improved the club's position year-on-year.
Quote from: Statto on February 10, 2019, 11:47:56 AM
Also FWIW I still think Joka's philosophy would have worked in the PL if given time. We wouldn't have beaten Man City but we'd have beaten Cardiff, Huddersfield, Brighton, Southampton et al if the players had been signed early enough to train together. That would have kept us up and Joka's style was (unlike the less sophisticated alternatives) one that we could have built on and improved the club's position year-on-year.
I would like to think so, too, but the evidence that there is doesn't support it.
By the time Jokanovic came up against Cardiff and Huddersfield, the window had been closed for two-and-a-half months. To put it in context, this was the same length of time as between us winning the play-off final at Wembley and the start to the season. And yet we were deservedly beaten by both opponents.
Quote from: Statto on February 10, 2019, 11:35:54 AM
Broadly agree with the OP.
An argument I often hear for a transfer system like ours where the manager has limited involvement, is that managers often don't stick around for long, and if you let them pick all the players, the players need to be replaced every year when the manager changes. Well the points made by the OP show why that argument is total bo11ocks.
If you want to avoif high player turnover, you need either to make a long-term DoF appointment then let him decide the club's high level tactical identity, or stick with the same manager long-term like Bournemouth and Burnley have done.
I agree Statto. If we hadnt spent so much money Jokas job would ,ironically enough,probably have been safe. Burnley retained Dyche largely becomes of longevity but also because they hadnt spent 100mill.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 10, 2019, 10:20:23 AM
Because my biggest concern is that the Khans never seem to learn, even the bleeding obvious. There is a pattern especially in recruitment which has been complete buffoonery of the highest order.
The day after the transfer window closed in the summer, there was a poll which asked where, in the League table, those on here thought we would end the season. You, I believe, predicted 8th.
Quote from: Arthur on February 10, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 10, 2019, 10:20:23 AM
Because my biggest concern is that the Khans never seem to learn, even the bleeding obvious. There is a pattern especially in recruitment which has been complete buffoonery of the highest order.
The day after the transfer window closed in the summer, there was a poll which asked where, in the League table, those on here thought we would end the season. You, I believe, predicted 8th.
Are you following me around Arthur.
You take me too seriously, and yourself. It is hearsay and third party, you must be marooned on a deserted island with nothing else better to do than go back 6 months to research that. You must be quite bitter which is eating you up inside and distorting your mind to disturbance level.
But if I did, and it's a big if, it is because 8 is my lucky number, and nothing else, even when it's uoside down it's still 8, because even the most delusional supporter would not contemplate that scenario.
and exactly what is your point ?
The pattern of complete buffoonery in recruitment can't be anything like as obvious as you claim.
Quote from: Arthur on February 10, 2019, 06:33:59 PM
The pattern of complete buffoonery in recruitment can't be anything like as obvious as you claim.
I was actually being very kind and forgiving to only describing it as Buffoonary.
There are far more stronger adjectives to describe.
I was being merciful and gentle, to not make the targets of my frustration feel bad about themselves.
Perhaps I should be more unforgiving in future, but its not really in my nature.
In reality I am a Gentleman and a Gentle Man, and a Genitalman.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 10, 2019, 06:48:15 PM
Quote from: Arthur on February 10, 2019, 06:33:59 PM
The pattern of complete buffoonery in recruitment can't be anything like as obvious as you claim.
I was actually being very kind and forgiving to only describing it as Buffoonary.
Whether or not you're being kind, your prediction, back then, proves that you have only come to the opinion that our recruitment last summer was 'buffoonery' with the benefit of hindsight. I'm sure all of us, both on here and within the Club - including T.K. himself, I would wager - would like go back to the day after the Wembley final and have us recruit differently to how we did. Because we can all notice our mistakes once we've seen the consequences.
You, however, seek to give the impression that our transfer business last summer was easily recognisable as being flawed at the time. Based on your '8th place' finish, this is clearly an unjust criticism. And even though you now know that it is (if you didn't already before), I fully expect to see you continuing to peddle this fallacy.
Unfortunately none of us saw it coming. When it came to the appointment of Ranieri however,I tried to convince myself that we did the right thing ,but couldnt help thinking about Roy at liverpool and Moyes at United ,and like them Ranieri was probably one of the least suitable managers we could have found . Five at the back and so little play out from the back as possible couldnt be much farther removed from the previous managers philosophy,employing a type of football that won over just about all our fans.
Quote from: Arthur on February 10, 2019, 07:26:15 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 10, 2019, 06:48:15 PM
Quote from: Arthur on February 10, 2019, 06:33:59 PM
The pattern of complete buffoonery in recruitment can't be anything like as obvious as you claim.
I was actually being very kind and forgiving to only describing it as Buffoonary.
Whether or not you're being kind, your prediction, back then, proves that you have only come to the opinion that our recruitment last summer was 'buffoonery' with the benefit of hindsight. I'm sure all of us, both on here and within the Club - including T.K. himself, I would wager - would like go back to the day after the Wembley final and have us recruit differently to how we did. Because we can all notice our mistakes once we've seen the consequences.
You, however, seek to give the impression that our transfer business last summer was easily recognisable as being flawed at the time. Based on your '8th place' finish, this is clearly an unjust criticism. And even though you now know that it is (if you didn't already before), I fully expect to see you continuing to peddle this fallacy.
Nurse Nurse quick he's out of bed again.
Look let me make it easy for you to understand. Just because you have put your head in the oven, does not mean I have to.
Because I think you are getting me confused with someone else.
It was actually Colonel Mustard with the Lead Pipe in the Study.
He is the one you need to talk to.
If I agreed with you we would both be wrong. You are obviously a WUM so I cannot take you seriously.
But when you say we, who is we, I did not recruit any players, Fulham did the recruitment. Try and peddle your slander elsewhere.
However, I have to respond to your unjustifiable accusations, which is only your own opinion, and if you don't like my opinion, then that for you is most unfortunate, and it is not unjust it's a fact that I possess the hindsight vision and foresight that you and the Crack Recruitment Unit led by your hero do not, and there are plenty of supporters who also share the same biblical foresight, vision and hindsight as I do, it's not rocket science.
But sadly you unfortunately do not, but I will refrain from holding that against you.
Have you seen that advert on TV when that bloke says in an interview that on the way to Aylesbury he said "a horse ran into the road in front of him wearing a pink dress quickly followed by a Tin Man". Well no offence but that bloke reminds me of you.
All I will say is, the more you target and attack me Arthur with utter nonsense, the more I will come back at you, it's in my DNA.
So keep supporting whoever you wish, and I shall do likewise.
Over to you.
Quote from: colinwhite on February 10, 2019, 08:09:44 PM
Unfortunately none of us saw it coming. When it came to the appointment of Ranieri however,I tried to convince myself that we did the right thing ,but couldnt help thinking about Roy at liverpool and Moyes at United ,and like them Ranieri was probably one of the least suitable managers we could have found . Five at the back and so little play out from the back as possible couldnt be much farther removed from the previous managers philosophy,employing a type of football that won over just about all our fans.
Maybe I am naive but I thought a good, experienced manager would be tactically versatile. And whilst I never saw the post-Joka improvement some on here seemed to, nor thought Ranieri managed the players (Kamara, Sessegnon, Cairney, Mitrovic) very well, I still had faith in his tactical knowledge as a highly experienced Italian manager, until the Brighton game. But for me, we were just so much demonstrably better with a 4-3-3 in the second half of that game, it made his previous persistance with a back 5 look utterly wrong. Then it was criminal to switch back to a back 5 against Palace, and then to start with 4 at the back and revert to 5 when we're 2-0 down against Man Utd just took the pi&&, so I've now lost all faith in him.
Quote from: Arthur on February 10, 2019, 06:28:21 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 10, 2019, 10:20:23 AM
Because my biggest concern is that the Khans never seem to learn, even the bleeding obvious. There is a pattern especially in recruitment which has been complete buffoonery of the highest order.
The day after the transfer window closed in the summer, there was a poll which asked where, in the League table, those on here thought we would end the season. You, I believe, predicted 8th.
Cobblers, I never said anything of the kind, have you Independent witnesses and CCTV footage. It's that dam glue you have been sniffing, disturbs the balance of your mind.
Tell me does this rag I am holding smell of Chloroform to you ?
Quote from: Statto on February 10, 2019, 08:53:10 PM
Quote from: colinwhite on February 10, 2019, 08:09:44 PM
Unfortunately none of us saw it coming. When it came to the appointment of Ranieri however,I tried to convince myself that we did the right thing ,but couldnt help thinking about Roy at liverpool and Moyes at United ,and like them Ranieri was probably one of the least suitable managers we could have found . Five at the back and so little play out from the back as possible couldnt be much farther removed from the previous managers philosophy,employing a type of football that won over just about all our fans.
Maybe I am naive but I thought a good, experienced manager would be tactically versatile. And whilst I never saw the post-Joka improvement some on here seemed to, nor thought Ranieri managed the players (Kamara, Sessegnon, Cairney, Mitrovic) very well, I still had faith in his tactical knowledge as a highly experienced Italian manager, until the Brighton game. But for me, we were just so much demonstrably better with a 4-3-3 in the second half of that game, it made his previous persistance with a back 5 look utterly wrong. Then it was criminal to switch back to a back 5 against Palace, and then to start with 4 at the back and revert to 5 when we're 2-0 down against Man Utd just took the pi&&, so I've now lost all faith in him.
Well said, I have to agree this is where I'm at as well. I expected tactical improvements and adjustments, but I did not expect the controversy of his player management. That shouts disconnect to me.
The 4-3-3 was one of the better formations we have used under him, and it has very little gametime. It was first used in the last 12 minutes away to Burnley, then again used at home in the 4-2 win against Brighton. Both times used, both times threatening on all fronts. Suffocating the top of the opponent's box and ensuring we could keep recycling the attack, that is what made us so deadly last year.
I think Ranieri has established the defending in numbers mentality for us, but enough is enough - we get it, it's time he moves on, or we move on without him.
The thing is, we've recruited for SJ's 4-3-3 line up. CR is trying to turn it in to a 5-4-1 and it doesn't work. Mitro is being starved of the ball and feeding on scraps, TC and Sess are peripheral at best. Playing a Left footed CB at RCB because he didn't want to play S Sess is the height of stupidity, it is clear that Christie wasn't fully fit (otherwise why not start him) so instead of keeping with his 5, he plays Denis at RB, in a 4-4-2.
Still we can analyse or spout opinions until we are blue in the face, any change has to come from the top.
A trainer can make a player look better or worse depending on how the team plays and whether or not the task given to him suits him
Going back to the rather excellent original post, I concur pretty much completely, but the big issue this season is not the difference of style between Jokanovic and Ranieri, but the fact they have been presented with a completely unbalanced squad who are not good enough to compete in the top flight.
Jokanovic went style over pragmatism and that lost him his job, Ranieri is trying to impose a more defensive set up over style and as the squad has so little defensive quality that will probably cost him his job and the club their Premier League placing.
There's only one villain here, and he's not likely to lose his job any time soon.
Good point Ted.
