Symons v Warburton

[fulhamphil]

Friday gives us all a chance to examine close up which manager can draw the best from his team. How ironic if a strong performance from the Bees results in growing sentiment to install Warburton as Kit's replacement. The following thoughts got posted last week but were overtaken by speculation re McCarthy and others and thread died. Here it is again.

Debating 'the next Fulham manager' divides opinion among fans and only underlines the complexity our owner faces in getting the appointment right. Would you seriously fancy taking on the responsibility and risking the wrath of Khan? Our club really cannot afford to get it wrong again after the string of disastrous executive decisions post Hughes.

From the blatant courting of Bruce and paper talk linking us to McCarthy do we assume Kit's days are already numbered regardless of where we finish? Executive decisions based on emotion or poor research will eventually unravel. Why should football be any different? We are 14 seasons on from the Tigana side that swept into the Prem with the best football seen at the Cottage since the 1950's. He aint coming back and there's no way to rewind the clock. The emotionally turbulent Rafa Benitez riding to the rescue for a 46 game schedule of Championship rough and tumble? Take a reality check. Journeymen failures like the bleating Lambert, Adkins or Poyet? Is that the way forward?

Tigana and his staff took a cerebral approach to the game - and the ideal lieutenant for that on the pitch was John Collins. Spend some time researching the web/local West London papers and you cannot fail to be impressed by Mark Warburton's credentials. A self-made millionaire with no imperative to succeed on the pitch apart from the goals he sets for himself - with an incisive, analytical and unemotional approach to setting up sides. Just like Tigana. Consider this quick snapshot of Brentford's progress in comparison to our own decline. They have five in the U-20 sides this week. Alex Pritchard is on loan from Spurs, a player Warburton says is 'nailed on' to make a big impression in the Premiership. Chris Long is a striker from Everton's academy who Warburton says he's been tracking since he was 13. And Brentford have a very promising wide player in John Toral, who has come through the academies of Barcelona and Arsenal. What a trick Warburton pulled in getting Pritchard from Spurs on loan - a scorer this week in Germany.

How come Fulham fail to recruit from other London clubs on our doorstep? Look what Bamford has done up on Teeside for Boro. Seems to me we are missing a trick or two consistently here with our scouting policy. When it comes to putting in the hard graft beyond matchday the more I read up on Warburton's career path the more I like.  

[fulhamben]

So we have missed a trick by not loaning other London teams youth players, even though our own youth players have dominated everyone of late

[fulhamphil]

Sorry to be dense, but if our own youth players 'have been dominating everyone of late' why are we sweating on a relegation battle?

[Lighthouse]

Any chance of getting our managers name right?

[FPT]

I'm sorry but this is so blinkered. Shall we just close our academy and develop everybody else's young talent? We have invested and believed in our own youth players because that is what we've built for 7 years to achieve. We have Fulham academy players contributing to over 200 appearances this season for the football club.

Marcus Bettinelli
Jesse Joronen
Jack Grimmer
Dan Burn
Sean Kavanagh
Alex Kacaniklic
Lasse Vigen Christensen
Emerson Hyndman
Ryan Williams
Patrick Roberts
George Williams
Moussa Dembele
Cauley Woodrow

But lets get rid of all of them and shut down the academy for a couple of loanees.

[FPT]

Sorry to be dense, but if our own youth players 'have been dominating everyone of late' why are we sweating on a relegation battle?

I presume he means at Academy level. Two U18 titles, and U18 League final, a Dallas Cup and a FA Youth Cup final in three years is pretty dominant.

[fulhamphil]

The debate here is in the title. Nobody's knocking the progress made by our academy graduates. Brentford are going down the same route, but the stark fact remains we are battling relegation while they arrive all gung-ho going all out for the play-offs. And it's been done without splashing £20 million plus on two strikers in 6 months in 2014 on gates of 10,000.

[Woolly Mammoth]

The debate here is in the title. Nobody's knocking the progress made by our academy graduates. Brentford are going down the same route, but the stark fact remains we are battling relegation while they arrive all gung-ho going all out for the play-offs. And it's been done without splashing £20 million plus on two strikers in 6 months in 2014 on gates of 10,000.

. 


You have made some very good points, and Mark Warburton will be available for selection come the end of the season, as will one or two other candidates. It remains to be seen if Kit Symons  can finish the season on a high with both results and performances, to make any impact or influence Fulham FC, to give him more time. Or has the Die already been cast and will he be replaced after the final match. As we all know, one way or another, Fulham FC have to get their judgement and decision right, they cannot afford any more errors of judgement, as they have already taken their toll.

[FPT]

The debate here is in the title. Nobody's knocking the progress made by our academy graduates. Brentford are going down the same route, but the stark fact remains we are battling relegation while they arrive all gung-ho going all out for the play-offs. And it's been done without splashing £20 million plus on two strikers in 6 months in 2014 on gates of 10,000.

You've made no debate for Kit though - you've hyped up Mark Warburton, which is deserved on his behalf, but your debate appeared to be Mark Warburton picking up loanees.

Lets discuss how Mark Warburton is working with a largely settled side that have been there for at least two years prior to Warburton's appointment, leaving Warburton with the easier job of sprinkling on top of an already well oiled machine.

Credit wear it is due, to pick up Jota was inspirational, and gambling on Andre Gray has proved excellent business - but I don't think he's done anything that anybody with an eye would have done. Alex Pritchard was nominated for 2014's Football League Young Player of the Year, and Moses Odubajo was turning in excellent performances for Leyton Orient last season, and was perhaps unlucky that two wide players were just better than him in being named in the 2014 League One Team of the Year.

I would argue that Mark Warburton had a lot easier job than Kit Symons, Kit came into an unsettled side with a number of new players and academy graduates trying to adjust to academy football and has - just about - succeeded. Of course, we could have done a lot better given our initial form, although I don't think any of us will complain with a fairly safe position come the end of the season - given we had 1 point after 8 games.

We have Rotherham and Wigan at home, as well as the derby and Charlton away. We get 9 points from those and we'll be well clear and could shoot ourselves up into a satisfactory lower-mid table spot.

Kit had a harder job, and it gets no easier for him with the summer window coming up. Where for Mark Warburton, he continues to only require sprinkling onto his side.

[westcliff white]

I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton

[fulhamphil]

Re Brentford's team only requiring some 'sprinkles' from Warburton he began the season dispensing with the front 2 from the promotion squad. Donaldson at 31 was granted a free to Birmingham (18 goals) and Trotta (13) was sent back to us deemed not good enough for the Ch'ship, a fact confirmed by subsequent events. He has improved massively on Rosler's team since taking the reins in December 2013.

[westcliff white]

I respectfully disagree Phil, but thats the beauty if this board we all have our opinions

[Lighthouse]

Any chance of getting our managers name right?

Thankyou.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton

Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?

[westcliff white]

I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton

Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?

I said on the other Warburton thread the other day that He has done well with limited resources and a limited squad, I am not sure about him for us, I would hope we have more resources than Brentford and a better squad going forward than them. Quite a few managers never adjust from working within limitations such as he has had when they go to clubs that have bigger resources as it makes them limited in their own mindset. For me I would not go that route.

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton

Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?

I said on the other Warburton thread the other day that He has done well with limited resources and a limited squad, I am not sure about him for us, I would hope we have more resources than Brentford and a better squad going forward than them. Quite a few managers never adjust from working within limitations such as he has had when they go to clubs that have bigger resources as it makes them limited in their own mindset. For me I would not go that route.

But that limits us to managers who have shown that they have experience with more resources, most of whom will have also disappointed on occasions with those extra resources.

And how is a manager like Warburton starting out at a 'small' club ever going to get the experience to move up?

[westcliff white]

I am firmly in the NO camp for Warburton

Just a flat rejection? Can't be bothered to enlighten us with a reason?

I said on the other Warburton thread the other day that He has done well with limited resources and a limited squad, I am not sure about him for us, I would hope we have more resources than Brentford and a better squad going forward than them. Quite a few managers never adjust from working within limitations such as he has had when they go to clubs that have bigger resources as it makes them limited in their own mindset. For me I would not go that route.

But that limits us to managers who have shown that they have experience with more resources, most of whom will have also disappointed on occasions with those extra resources.

And how is a manager like Warburton starting out at a 'small' club ever going to get the experience to move up?

I dont care how he gets it, just dont htink in my opinion it should be with us as we might as well stick with Kit then.

Personally I would stick with Kit over Warburton as you can use the same arguement about Kit, so if the choice is between them I would stick with Kit.

[FPT]

Re Brentford's team only requiring some 'sprinkles' from Warburton he began the season dispensing with the front 2 from the promotion squad. Donaldson at 31 was granted a free to Birmingham (18 goals) and Trotta (13) was sent back to us deemed not good enough for the Ch'ship, a fact confirmed by subsequent events. He has improved massively on Rosler's team since taking the reins in December 2013.

He replaced Clayton Donaldson and Marcello Trotta who were their top goal scorers from the last season, you are correct, and he has replaced those goals from the two with Andre Gray, a good signing which I admitted. Clayton Donaldson was not "granted" a free, Donaldson rejected Brentford's offer of a new contract - plus, I would still concur that he's not dealing with a squad overhaul like Kit had to, making it worse that the overhaul wasn't in his hands. He's lost a striker and didn't want another, gambling successfully on Andre Gray.

He has made Uwe Rosler's side better - but as I said earlier, it's easier to make a side better when the core of the squad was already strong. He's loaned in Alex Pritchard and Jota with successful results, and also Alan Judge has strong assist statistics.

I would much rather have had Warburton's task than Symons'.

[westcliff white]

Alex Mccleish is also available at the end of the season, he us leaving Genk
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[fulhamphil]

You've made a good case FPT for looking closely at Warburton's credentials, while overlooking Long's instant impact and other clever adjustments (LB for example). Yet you rate Kit higher? Can you perhaps list what Kit has been getting right, only all supporters I know are adamant he persists with the wrong formation and should never have dispensed with Matt Smith's services.