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NFR....bankers on trial

Started by jarv, July 17, 2017, 02:14:44 PM

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Holders

If there were a similar situation, the state would find it much more difficult to intervene due to the level of debt and deficit still remaining from the last one. That must be Nr. 2 on the government's to-do list.
Non sumus statione ferriviaria

Woolly Mammoth

The Goverment or Governments, aren't they the people who invented the phrase " ime alright Jack pull up the Ladder ".
I am just relieved that all my savings are under the floorboards, and unfortunately also in my wife's purse. With the exception of my Premier Bonds, which has resulted in receiving another £25 cheque last week. Never won anything more, but they all add up.
I have never banked at Barclays, but since the year dot, people in high places have got away with literally murder due to their connections.
Corruption is in their nature. It comes with the desire to be Independent, Financially Secure, The opportunity to extend an Individuals Power over others, and the polishing of ones Ego.
It can bring out the worst in Human Nature. But sometimes the bigger you are the harder you fall.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Holders

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on July 19, 2017, 09:54:00 AM
The Goverment or Governments, aren't they the people who invented the phrase " ime alright Jack pull up the Ladder ".
I am just relieved that all my savings are under the floorboards, and unfortunately also in my wife's purse. With the exception of my Premier Bonds, which has resulted in receiving another £25 cheque last week. Never won anything more, but they all add up.
I have never banked at Barclays, but since the year dot, people in high places have got away with literally murder due to their connections.
Corruption is in their nature. It comes with the desire to be Independent, Financially Secure, The opportunity to extend an Individuals Power over others, and the polishing of ones Ego.
It can bring out the worst in Human Nature. But sometimes the bigger you are the harder you fall.

Blame Darwin then?
Non sumus statione ferriviaria


Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: Holders on July 19, 2017, 09:57:45 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on July 19, 2017, 09:54:00 AM
The Goverment or Governments, aren't they the people who invented the phrase " ime alright Jack pull up the Ladder ".
I am just relieved that all my savings are under the floorboards, and unfortunately also in my wife's purse. With the exception of my Premier Bonds, which has resulted in receiving another £25 cheque last week. Never won anything more, but they all add up.
I have never banked at Barclays, but since the year dot, people in high places have got away with literally murder due to their connections.
Corruption is in their nature. It comes with the desire to be Independent, Financially Secure, The opportunity to extend an Individuals Power over others, and the polishing of ones Ego.
It can bring out the worst in Human Nature. But sometimes the bigger you are the harder you fall.

Blame Darwin then?

I have just checked under my floor boards, and I am laughing all the way to the bank.
But not Barclays or the Bank of Scotland.
I shall get back to you about Darwin, but I think he was two footed.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Holders

Quote from: Statto on July 19, 2017, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Holders on July 19, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
As I understand it, the problem had its roots in over-lending in the US ("sub-prime") and the removal of the BoE's regulatory role as one of the first acts of a former Chancellor ("no more boom and bust"). The bankers took advantage of the environment created by governments and the lack of adequate regulation, it's the way they're made.

Apparently, the Qatari deal was technically against the rules but was primarily intended to be in Barclays' best interests and - as some have pointed out - in passing saved the taxpayer money but that was not the objective.

The real villain of the piece (in the UK anyway) was that inept Chancellor.

Mistakes were made, not least by a lot of people borrowing more money than they could afford to repay. Generally if someone lends me money and I can't pay them back, I expect them to be angry at me, not the other way around. People are also quick to forget that the financial services sector is one of the only things we're still good at in this country, contributing more to tax receipts than agriculture, construction, manufacturing etc. Nonetheless banks do have a social responsibility and I agree they were in the wrong in lots of respects, as were the regulators like you say.

As you seem to suggest (in another post) it reminds us of the objective of austerity, something it's easy to forget.

Now having lit the fuse and turned this into a full blown politics thread I'll step back and wait for it to blow up... 

I was suggesting that it wasn't an arbitrary whim but had a hard-nosed objective and we ignore the debt/deficit at considerable peril.
Non sumus statione ferriviaria

Woolly Mammoth

#25
Quote from: Statto on July 19, 2017, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Holders on July 19, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
As I understand it, the problem had its roots in over-lending.

Now having lit the fuse and turned this into a full blown politics thread I'll step back and wait for it to blow up... 

Statto, you make some very good points and I admire your knowledge.
But as for lighting the fuse. Isn't that what Guido Fawkes did in 1605, and look what happened to him.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.


Logicalman

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on July 19, 2017, 10:25:00 AM
Quote from: Statto on July 19, 2017, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: Holders on July 19, 2017, 07:43:44 AM
As I understand it, the problem had its roots in over-lending.

Now having lit the fuse and turned this into a full blown politics thread I'll step back and wait for it to blow up... 

Statto, you make some very good points and I admire your knowledge.
But as for lighting the fuse. Isn't that what Guido Fawkes did in 1605, and look what happened to him.

Yep, he had a celebratory evening named after him! Fame in death, sort of.
Logical is just in the name - don't expect it has anything to do with my thought process, because I AM the man who sold the world.

Twig

Quote from: Statto on July 18, 2017, 01:03:24 AM
Firstly this is nothing to do with LIBOR. What Barclays are alleged to have done here is provide "financial assistance" to the Qataris when they bailed Barclays out by taking a stake in the bank in 2008. In other words they used their other shareholders' money to assist the Qataris, which is unlawful because it dilutes the existing shareholders. I don't know the intricacies of it beyond that.

Seocndly LIBOR is not the same as the Bank of England base rate, which the BoE uses to control inflation, quite legitmately, in the best interests of the state and the public. A small amount of inflation is good for the economy, which is why the BoE has targeted 2%. For most of the last few years it's been below that level, i.e., unhealthily low. 

Thirdly when Barclays did manipulate LIBOR it was manipulated in both directions. It was manipulated downward to make the bank's overall financial position seem better. Separately, traders manipulated it both up and down to improve their own positions in products that referenced LIBOR.

Other than that I agree with MrD1879. Hysteria and poor journalism and, evidently from this thread, a lack of understanding generally.

Spot on. Let's be clear, the deal Barclays put together with the Qataris (not the nicest of states BTW) was against stock exchange rules so they are due a rap over the knuckles. However that same deal also meant they avoided any need for a publicly funded bailout and so saved the tax payers a bill.  You can look at this one two ways, but not the most heinous of crimes.  Certainly not in the Fred Goodwin league or even close.

filham

Quote from: MrD1879 on July 17, 2017, 10:47:12 PM
Low interest rates are good for inflation. The savings rates are at an all time low but so are borrowing rates. The funny thing is the Barclays guys are being sent to trial for rigging libor to infact make rates lower for the wholesale market.
So much hysteria and poor journalism by mostly the red tops drives this kind of thread. Laughable really
The difference between savings rates and borrowing rates is huge, when I see that cap close I may be come less antagonistic towards the banking world. At the moment I can't hear a good word spoken in their favour.


Twig

Quote from: filham on August 08, 2017, 10:03:06 AM
Quote from: MrD1879 on July 17, 2017, 10:47:12 PM
Low interest rates are good for inflation. The savings rates are at an all time low but so are borrowing rates. The funny thing is the Barclays guys are being sent to trial for rigging libor to infact make rates lower for the wholesale market.
So much hysteria and poor journalism by mostly the red tops drives this kind of thread. Laughable really
The difference between savings rates and borrowing rates is huge, when I see that cap close I may be come less antagonistic towards the banking world. At the moment I can't hear a good word spoken in their favour.

So you don't; use credit cards, have a current account, set up direct debits, have a mortgage, have a pension, etc etc. No, can't possibly be anything positive to say about the banking sector.

Lighthouse

Low interest rates are throttling growth and we will sadly be hitting another depression very soon. This time we are in a growing debt and despite the Banks insistence on keeping the interest rates at nothing. It clearly has not worked.

Yes slightly off topic I know.
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope

Lighthouse

Quote from: Statto on August 08, 2017, 12:55:50 PM
Something new for the forum. Not only do we all know better than Jokanovic when it's best to take off Norwood, but now we also know better than the BoE/MPC (and the Fed and every other central bank taking the same action) what's best for the nation's economy.

049:gif

If a manager picks a team that is constantly losing. But he keeps telling me it it the right team and he knows best. If a bank tells me that keeping interest rates down will make the economy grow. But we end up with a growing debt despite austerity measures. If I am told that keeping the interest rates down helps inflation. But my weekly shop and utility bills climb up and up. If a doctor tells me that the drug I am taking is safe but my arms drop off and my skins turns to jelly. I question my betters because I know they are wrong. Those that don't will forever live with high bills and a poor team and a decaying body. Question, question and debate. Just accepting things is not a healthy way to see things.  049:gif
The above IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT. It is an opinion.

We may yet hear the horse talk.

I can stand my own despair but not others hope


filham

Quote from: Twig on August 08, 2017, 10:38:03 AM
Quote from: filham on August 08, 2017, 10:03:06 AM
Quote from: MrD1879 on July 17, 2017, 10:47:12 PM
Low interest rates are good for inflation. The savings rates are at an all time low but so are borrowing rates. The funny thing is the Barclays guys are being sent to trial for rigging libor to infact make rates lower for the wholesale market.
So much hysteria and poor journalism by mostly the red tops drives this kind of thread. Laughable really
The difference between savings rates and borrowing rates is huge, when I see that cap close I may be come less antagonistic towards the banking world. At the moment I can't hear a good word spoken in their favour.

So you don't; use credit cards, have a current account, set up direct debits, have a mortgage, have a pension, etc etc. No, can't possibly be anything positive to say about the banking sector.
Afraid we have to use most of these banking services, the banks have arranged things in such a way as we have little choice.

In particular the credit card is a necessary evil as certain things like booking a theatre ticket cant be achieved without it but the interest rates for any poor sole who fails to clear the card at the end of the month are extortionate

Logicalman

Quote from: filham on August 08, 2017, 04:58:41 PM
Quote from: Twig on August 08, 2017, 10:38:03 AM
Quote from: filham on August 08, 2017, 10:03:06 AM
Quote from: MrD1879 on July 17, 2017, 10:47:12 PM
Low interest rates are good for inflation. The savings rates are at an all time low but so are borrowing rates. The funny thing is the Barclays guys are being sent to trial for rigging libor to infact make rates lower for the wholesale market.
So much hysteria and poor journalism by mostly the red tops drives this kind of thread. Laughable really
The difference between savings rates and borrowing rates is huge, when I see that cap close I may be come less antagonistic towards the banking world. At the moment I can't hear a good word spoken in their favour.

So you don't; use credit cards, have a current account, set up direct debits, have a mortgage, have a pension, etc etc. No, can't possibly be anything positive to say about the banking sector.
Afraid we have to use most of these banking services, the banks have arranged things in such a way as we have little choice.

In particular the credit card is a necessary evil as certain things like booking a theatre ticket cant be achieved without it but the interest rates for any poor sole who fails to clear the card at the end of the month are extortionate

Totally agree with this.

Disagreeing with how the economy is run, or the manner in which the banking industry does business isn't the same as opting out, as filham says quite rightly, it's almost impossible not to be part of,or partake in, the industry these days as electronic finance is the bread and butter of how we live (not exactly feasible to keep all the money under mattress in this day and age), so perhaps a little of an unfair question given the way the banking industry has gotten into bed with those that govern our society. CiP: Can you pay your tax bill by sending cash in an envelope (not in person of course) to the taxman? I can't, only EFT, Credit/Debit card and Cheques are permitted.
Logical is just in the name - don't expect it has anything to do with my thought process, because I AM the man who sold the world.

Holders

There's a world ofdifference between traditional banking, like current and deposit accounts, cheques, credit cards, mortgages, electronic transfers etc. and the sort of speculative "instruments" that got the system into such trouble I had a neighbour once who ran a hedge fund; he tried to explain it once and I had no idea what he was on about - for me that was just useless unproductive exploitation - but Capt. Mainwaring stuff, there's nothing wrong with that.
Non sumus statione ferriviaria


The Old Count

Quote from: Statto on August 08, 2017, 12:55:50 PM
Something new for the forum. Not only do we all know better than Jokanovic when it's best to take off Norwood, but now we also know better than the BoE/MPC (and the Fed and every other central bank taking the same action) what's best for the nation's economy.

049:gif

Statto old fruit - Are you a spokesperson for The Establishment? lol

Twig

#36
Quote from: Statto on August 08, 2017, 07:37:55 PM
Sorry but can one of the posters replying to Twig clarify what your point is?

As far as I can tell Twig was making the very relevant point that banks perform a variety of useful social functions, such as keeping savings safe, facilitating all sorts of long distance payments, allowing people to buy homes and small businesses to grow.

Those services that don't involve credit are generally free, in a world where very little else is.

If you don't like credit or the costs attached to that, then unless you're severely lacking in self-control it remains easy and simple to avoid. There's a big difference between using electronic banking services (which I do) and using a credit card or other short-term borrowing (which I don't).


Thanks Statto put rather more eloquently than I had time for.  I also agree with Holders who made the point that there is a big difference between retail banking and investment banking. Although even in investment banking there are big differences between many of the essential services offered to companies seeking lending for capital investment, support for acquisitions etc. vs esoteric speculative instruments using hedges, derivatives, currency arbitrage etc. (and often complicated combos of them all!).
My core point is that it is lazy thinking to just lump all banks and bankers together and "hate" bankers.  After all, we are all rightly critical of lazy sports journalism and yet we can be guilty of similar lazy mindedness.

peaty

Quote from: Statto on August 08, 2017, 07:37:55 PM

If you don't like credit or the costs attached to that, then unless you're severely lacking in self-control it remains easy and simple to avoid.

Oh mate. Look at the entire economy, from our mad mortgages, kids paying 6% pa. on student loans, credit cards & equity withdrawal funding everyday expenses in a world of stagnant real wages & zero hours contracts. Not to mention food banks, loan sharks, benefit sanctions and scumbag pay-day lenders.

Nothing to do with self-control, Statto. Everything to do with people being forced deeper and deeper into debt.


Logicalman

Quote from: Statto on August 08, 2017, 07:37:55 PM
Sorry but can one of the posters replying to Twig clarify what your point is?

As far as I can tell Twig was making the very relevant point that banks perform a variety of useful social functions, such as keeping savings safe, facilitating all sorts of long distance payments, allowing people to buy homes and small businesses to grow.

Those services that don't involve credit are generally free, in a world where very little else is.

If you don't like credit or the costs attached to that, then unless you're severely lacking in self-control it remains easy and simple to avoid. There's a big difference between using electronic banking services (which I do) and using a credit card or other short-term borrowing (which I don't).

So a Mortgage or Loan isn't credit?
Logical is just in the name - don't expect it has anything to do with my thought process, because I AM the man who sold the world.

dhowells21

Quote from: Statto on July 17, 2017, 06:54:59 PM
OP is misguided IMO. Personally I don't agree with the fundamental idea that the whole banking industry should get some sort of "come uppance" for the financial crisis but that's another debate for another day. Whatever your general views, with regard to this specific case Barclays was one of the banks that didn't have to go cap in hand to the taxpayer and the alleged fraud didn't affect the public here. With all due respect I'm willing to bet hardly any of the people reading this would even understand it (and that's not me saying i'm one of those who do). None of the reports I've seen in that national press have even tried to explain it properly, even the broadsheets.

Agree with this, and pretty much everything you've said on this thread tbh. People are just spewing crap all over the place here. Pretty sick of the bankers = evil narrative. It's lazy, it's easy, and most of it is just repeated straight the front page of the Sun.