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So how long has Slavisa realistically got?

Started by Wearethewhites, December 02, 2017, 07:27:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Chutney

Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2017, 12:11:44 PM
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season.  The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender.  Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have.  Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.

We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.

Name a better manager than Jokanovic that will come to Fulham, I'll wait. Our current league position is a credit to Slav given our last two transfer windows, we have a poor squad and we need to make a number of signings in key areas, I just hope that Slav gets a few players he actually wants this January.

You can't honestly say being 15th is a credit to a fulham manager.....jesus. I'm pro Slav but that comment is ridiculous.

Given the goings on at the club and the shoddy recruitment over the summer I think he's doing remarkably well to keep us out of the relegation places. Every team in the division improved over the summer where as we went backwards, he's doing a good job.

Now name a manager better than Jokanovic that would come to Fulham.
C O Y W

FFC1987

Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:46:27 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2017, 12:11:44 PM
Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 11:33:31 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on December 04, 2017, 10:59:06 AM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on December 04, 2017, 10:47:01 AM
If his Pig headed approach continue,not long I'm afraid. Playing Button,playing Sess at left back where it obvious he can help playing further up. Seemingly not playing what I'm assuming are stats based players to prove his point.Now Kline has gone needs to draw a line under it for the good of the Club.
Kline going changes nothing since his legacy remains until at least January, if not for the entire season.  The left back position is a problem only when Odoi is needed as cover for a central defender.  Had Malone been adequately replaced then there wouldn't be quite the issue we have.  Kline's legacy is going to loom over us for quite some time to come, hopefully to remind the Khans never to do it again.

We have Madl who is a more then adequate deputy for CB yet for whatever reason he doesn't even get anywhere near the team. Our best attacking threat is sess and if he is to blind to see it or to pigheaded to play Madl and move odoi to left back then he should be gone. Soares won't see any game time under him and God knows what Graham and Mollo think of being used as pawns to make his point. The club won't move away from the stats system as I believe they have already replaced Kline haven't they? Or worse Tony Khan will do it his way. I don't want to be over dramatic but we will go no where until something gives.

Name a better manager than Jokanovic that will come to Fulham, I'll wait. Our current league position is a credit to Slav given our last two transfer windows, we have a poor squad and we need to make a number of signings in key areas, I just hope that Slav gets a few players he actually wants this January.

You can't honestly say being 15th is a credit to a fulham manager.....jesus. I'm pro Slav but that comment is ridiculous.

Given the goings on at the club and the shoddy recruitment over the summer I think he's doing remarkably well to keep us out of the relegation places. Every team in the division improved over the summer where as we went backwards, he's doing a good job.

Now name a manager better than Jokanovic that would come to Fulham.

Sorry but I completely disagree with you. I clearly stated i'm pro Slav, so I don't need to answer your question. I'm content with him at the helm but we, as a club from top down need to improve. I wouldn't say every club above us improved really. Ipswich being a prime example. We well over achieved last year and with poor recruitment we should be about mid table, (I predicted 9th) and that would be fair/doign a good job. Being 15th with our team/squad is not good enough and 100% not a job well done by Slav.

MrD1879

I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change


FFC1987

Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change

I actually think our squad isn't balanced at all and Slav even says so in recent interviews. Lack of quality in goal/defense/up top and quality starters in those positions too is our weakness.

Facts Not Fiction

Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change

It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market

Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:

Button

Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares

McDonald Norwood

Kebano Fonte Sessegnon

Kamara

Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.

toshes mate

I think SJ would be the first to admit that 15th is not a job well done, by him or anyone else employed with Fulham FC.  Apportioning blame is a discussion topic but is not going to help in getting the team up the table.  That is a job for all those employed to make the Club successful and I hope they are all working hard to inwardly digest and deal with the supporter criticism of the poor second half showing on Saturday, not least because a divided club is much easier to beat than a united one. 

The blame game goes nowhere unless it actually focuses on the true problems behind our failure to use last season's successes (which, I thoroughly disagree was an over achievement) as a rocket thrust from the off this time.  Complacency within the management/recruitment/retention team certainly played its role in the preseason disasters and in not dealing with key injury cover before the season began.  People can blame SJ all they want if they honestly believe it but my message to them would be that it can be one hell of a lot worse than this if he goes and recruitment follows the same path of the last several years.   Conversely if both SJ and the recruitment team were driven out completely and revamped comprehensively then in a couple of seasons time we could be challenging again.  My bet is that a decent January window can achieve a shot at promotion provided we win at least three of the five games remaining this year.   We just have to ensure that the Kline Saga positively influences the way we do business in future. 


Mullers OG

We can all blame someone, whether it's the manager, injuries, the board or the players.  I don't actually think there's much wrong with the squad that a proper no. 9, a tall commanding centre half and a decent reliable keeper wouldn't put right.

Almost every fan has been crying out for those three positions to be filled for the last couple of seasons.  Martin was, for all his problems off the field, a proper no.9.  Our centre half position has never been right since Hangerland got cheesed off.

The sale of Stockdale was a shocker. 

Given what we've got and the lack of form of Button and the injury to Ream makes the lack of playing time of Bettinelli and Madl inexplicable.

I'm generally a supporter of Jokanovic but things need to improve quickly if the crowd isn't going to turn against him.

Chutney

Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change

It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market

Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:

Button

Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares

McDonald Norwood

Kebano Fonte Sessegnon

Kamara

Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.

This team is a mid-table side at best, it doesn't have a decent striker and the defence is appalling.
C O Y W

rogerpbackinMidEastUS

There are far less successful/well known coaches managing 'weaker teams' without having 'star' players
who are doing much better than us because they are highly motivated, play as a team and regularly play to their utmost potential.
Bristol City and Sheffield Utd spring to mind.
They couldn't be closer knit units if they had a 30' bed that they all slept in.
VERY DAFT AND A LOT DAFTER THAN I SEEM, SOMETIMES


General

Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.

A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment


agreed. If it werent for injuries and loss of key players last sumer, replaced by lesser players we would be in an entirely different place. We're not, but I don't see that as Slavisa's fault - I see it as club hierachy politics interfering where they shouldn't.

Last season we improved from January. Relegation being threatened aside I fully expect Slavisa to be given until half way through next season at least to kick us into gear. Everyone can acknowledge this season is frustrating and isn't going to plan, but there are clear transfer related reasons for that. Slav needs to be backed fully by Shahid Khan in January and enabled to do his job properly and to see where that gets us this season and then, personally I think he should also be given the summer to do transfers next year depending on what position we find ourselves in.

Chutney

Quote from: General on December 04, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.

A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment


agreed. If it werent for injuries and loss of key players last sumer, replaced by lesser players we would be in an entirely different place. We're not, but I don't see that as Slavisa's fault - I see it as club hierachy politics interfering where they shouldn't.

Last season we improved from January. Relegation being threatened aside I fully expect Slavisa to be given until half way through next season at least to kick us into gear. Everyone can acknowledge this season is frustrating and isn't going to plan, but there are clear transfer related reasons for that. Slav needs to be backed fully by Shahid Khan in January and enabled to do his job properly and to see where that gets us this season and then, personally I think he should also be given the summer to do transfers next year depending on what position we find ourselves in.

This. Exactly this, he's our best option of getting promoted, all he needs from us is support, and from the owners he needs some good players!
C O Y W

Count Flapula

Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on December 04, 2017, 02:19:20 PM
There are far less successful/well known coaches managing 'weaker teams' without having 'star' players
who are doing much better than us because they are highly motivated, play as a team and regularly play to their utmost potential.
Bristol City and Sheffield Utd spring to mind.
They couldn't be closer knit units if they had a 30' bed that they all slept in.

You are right inasmuch as those teams may not have "star players" or be as talented as some of our individuals, but one thing those teams have is a good balance.

Sadly our team clearly doesn't since we lost some key players in the summer / did not sign a good no. 9 / good replacement LB / another solid CB as identified by SJ as key posts to fill.

The teams mentioned above are full of players that fit the managers' system, whereas some of ours clearly do not at present. SJ has a clear way he wants to play - i'm sure, given the reported amount of time SK spent in recruiting him, the club were fully aware of this before we hired him and selected him partly because of this.

If that's the case, then the club also needs to support him by buying players he actually wants and fits his system otherwise what's the point? I'm not saying the club hasn't previously tried to support SJ in this area before, but I am saying i'd like to see him have more involvement (in conjunction with stats / scouting etc.) in who we sign so he can be held accountable for those decisions and judged fairly instead of the strange situation we have now.




RaySmith

Football is a team game, and basically a simple game.

You don't need fashionable systems, the main thing is to score more goals than the other team in a game, and it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's within the laws.

This is maybe especially true in the Championship, compared to the Prem- it is a harsh, unforgiving  struggle over a long season, where  there isn't much difference between the teams.

You don't necessarily need foreign coaches or players to succeed in this division.

Twig

Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change

It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market

Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:

Button

Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares

McDonald Norwood

Kebano Fonte Sessegnon

Kamara

Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.

Sorry but that team proves the point that we do not have a balanced or strong enough squad.  Fortunately it would be possible to do better.  Play Betts in goal because Button's confidence has taken a knock. Move Odoi to LB because that is his natural position and also because we have seen nothing to suggest Soares should start.  Play Madl as CB until Ream is fit because Madl is proveni n this division.  Do not select Fonte because.........well it's bleedin obvious. Do select Cairney who just happens to be our captain and best player.  Seriously what on earth were you thinking about when you proposed that side as proof that we shoud be doing well?

Twig

By the way I am fed up with hearing that Joka's tactics have been "found out", this is really lazy thinking.  Like, all the managers in the Champ slumbered through last season but finally woke up during the summer and realised that little old Fulham played possession football, playing out from the back.  I don't think so, there are other far more compelling and sensible explanations as to why we have struggled this year.


Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: RaySmith on December 04, 2017, 04:28:26 PM
Football is a team game, and basically a simple game.

You don't need fashionable systems, the main thing is to score more goals than the other team in a game, and it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as it's within the laws.

This is maybe especially true in the Championship, compared to the Prem- it is a harsh, unforgiving  struggle over a long season, where  there isn't much difference between the teams.

You don't necessarily need foreign coaches or players to succeed in this division.

0001.jpeg
👍⚽️
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

Facts Not Fiction

Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change

It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market

Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:

Button

Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares

McDonald Norwood

Kebano Fonte Sessegnon

Kamara

Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.

Sorry but that team proves the point that we do not have a balanced or strong enough squad.  Fortunately it would be possible to do better.  Play Betts in goal because Button's confidence has taken a knock. Move Odoi to LB because that is his natural position and also because we have seen nothing to suggest Soares should start.  Play Madl as CB until Ream is fit because Madl is proveni n this division.  Do not select Fonte because.........well it's bleedin obvious. Do select Cairney who just happens to be our captain and best player.  Seriously what on earth were you thinking about when you proposed that side as proof that we shoud be doing well?

I was taking into account the previous post about players being injured. This isn't my chosen team.

Facts Not Fiction

Quote from: Chutney on December 04, 2017, 02:01:52 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on December 04, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 04, 2017, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on December 04, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
I slated our summer transfer window but to say it's a poor squad is ridiculous yes it needs improving which we didn't do enough off but 75% of the managers in the league would give their right arm to have it.
If you could honestly say that the Cardiff, Sheffield United or Bristol City squads are better then ours then I'll take your point?

This year he has been found out yet is so tactically rigid that he doesn't know what to do apart from persist with trying to get a goalkeeper who can't do it to constantly play out from the back, play our most attacking player at left back and play Stef jo as a false nine. We do have options he's just to stubborn to change

It is nothing to do with being found out, we were "found out" in September 2016 and it didn't stop us doing very well subsequently or require a change in tactics. The problem is the loss of Martin, Malone and Aluko in the transfer market and Piazon, Cairney, Johansen and now Ream to injury. Those issues require squad changes and can only be addressed in transfer market

Even with those injuries, you telling me this team can't do well:

Button

Fredericks Kalas Odoi Soares

McDonald Norwood

Kebano Fonte Sessegnon

Kamara

Every team has injuries, and most managers have a plan B to execute if you do. Last seasons resurgence happened in October, and we were incredibly lucky with injuries.

This team is a mid-table side at best, it doesn't have a decent striker and the defence is appalling.

You don't need a great team to do well. Compare this to Sheff Utd, player for player. We have more quality in that side than most.


Facts Not Fiction

Quote from: Twig on December 04, 2017, 05:49:00 PM
By the way I am fed up with hearing that Joka's tactics have been "found out", this is really lazy thinking.  Like, all the managers in the Champ slumbered through last season but finally woke up during the summer and realised that little old Fulham played possession football, playing out from the back.  I don't think so, there are other far more compelling and sensible explanations as to why we have struggled this year.

They have been found out. Don't know how you can not think this.

Facts Not Fiction

Quote from: General on December 04, 2017, 02:40:15 PM
Quote from: Statto on December 02, 2017, 10:01:52 PM
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 02, 2017, 09:49:46 PM
I don't feel he's the right type of manager to get us out this division, and the owners also need to analyse this.

A reasonable post but I cannot agree with this part at all.
He got Watford out of the division, He got us into the play-offs in 2017 (best team in the league for the majority of the season and favourites to win those play-offs) and We went into this season 2nd favourites to go up... he clearly has the necessary blueprint but it's just not working at the moment


agreed. If it werent for injuries and loss of key players last sumer, replaced by lesser players we would be in an entirely different place. We're not, but I don't see that as Slavisa's fault - I see it as club hierachy politics interfering where they shouldn't.

Last season we improved from January. Relegation being threatened aside I fully expect Slavisa to be given until half way through next season at least to kick us into gear. Everyone can acknowledge this season is frustrating and isn't going to plan, but there are clear transfer related reasons for that. Slav needs to be backed fully by Shahid Khan in January and enabled to do his job properly and to see where that gets us this season and then, personally I think he should also be given the summer to do transfers next year depending on what position we find ourselves in.

If you believe there are clear transfer related issues, then I assume you agree there is clear management and tactical issues.