Author Topic: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match  (Read 1197 times)

Offline RaySmith

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 04:42:43 PM »
A good analysis- I think it shows how we were doing well I the game in the first half, and then events seemed to conspire against us.

The crux of the matter was  conceding the second goal, which was mixed I with Odoi's injury, which seemed to lead to his red card.

I think we would likely put this game down to experience if we weren't on a fairly poor run, in a season with so  much expectation at the start after last season, and players' confidence seems fragile.
We aren't quite cutting it at the moment,despite lots of  admirable play, but we keep self-destructing.

Offline YoungsBitter

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 06:55:05 PM »
You’ve given a lot of A’s and B’s which is very generous IMO.

Johansen at ST is a huge negative. We don't need 4 midfielders to keep the ball, and SJ playing Johansen just proves to me that he’s lost it. Going to extreme lengths to keep his current, and seemingly only, style of play.

How much longer can we blame poor finishing? It’s getting mundane and boring.

Its an interesting and positive spin, I agree with the sentiment of FactsNot Fiction that you're being too generous and overall the issues are the same every week so its becoming very frustrating:
1. Strange line up choice against a team who had struggled against Matt Smith the prior week, but Slav got away with it for the first 30 minutes. However, even then Brentford looked very fluid and we were yet again not clinical, maybe not having a recognized striker was part of that.
2. Brentford get gifted a goal by waltzing through our midfield and then finally by Button diving over the ball (how you can give TC an A and Norwood a B on this goal alone) and we do not strike back, we go into the HT at 1-1.
3. Yet again another team comes out fired up while we come out cold. My gut feeling is the dressing room at half time was not a fun place to be - arguments about line up and Button I am sure coming out. If you are a defender how can you feel confident with Button behind you and how frustrating is his distribution for every other player?
4. Slav yet again tactically makes no change as we go 1-2, 10 men and then 1-3. He stalls, is uncertain, does not make the right call when Odoi gets his last warning. Makes bad subs - wrong people at wrong time.

If this was a one off - "bad day at the office" I would be more positive like you but this is happening too often. I was at Bolton game and again at Millwall and both games gave clear indications that we are coached to play in a way that we do not currently have the players or the players fit enough to be successful at and Slav's stubborn resistance to either using his full squad or make key changes in tactics means we are a busted flush. Every other team knows how to capitalize on our mistakes and they know we never change so keep at it. Those two were the worst opposition we will play all year and we struggled against them. This team has enough quality players to be further up the table than we are but he either refuses to play them, like Saturday, or make key changes, like drop Button, sub Odoi and from how bad we are at beginning of second half I am starting to think he is losing the squad after his motivational efforts seem to have the opposite effect.

Sorry but having watched it again yesterday too - Sundays are boring here as well - I think you are way too optimistic.
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Offline Matt10

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 07:08:31 PM »
Good post Matt and worth reading ,Cheers!
One point about their first goal when kebano makes a terrible decision and looses the ball just outside their box when we were really threatening,for them to break away and score. we had many players comitting forward and that cost us dearly. A double wammy if you like; the loss of agraet opportunity for us and a goal on the counter for them.
All at a time when they were hardly in the game ......

Yes, very true. I didn't want to fault Kebano for trying to do too much, because it was a mazing run, but it was part of the issue that was similar to how the red card happened. We pushed forward and committed players quite advanced. I honestly don't think anyone in their mind would think TC pass the ball and get intercepted, but it did. Double whammy is a great way of putting it.

You’ve given a lot of A’s and B’s which is very generous IMO.

Johansen at ST is a huge negative. We don't need 4 midfielders to keep the ball, and SJ playing Johansen just proves to me that he’s lost it. Going to extreme lengths to keep his current, and seemingly only, style of play.

How much longer can we blame poor finishing? It’s getting mundane and boring.

I think it was more so a good problem to have for a lineup, but not good when needing a reaction to the match itself. Our CM midfield depth has grown in quality right now. I honestly think we were shortchanged from seeing it truly come into form due to the match scenario. We have never dominated the center of the pitch defensively like we did in the first half against Brentford.

I do agree about our finishing. We need to pull the trigger much more often and from various positions. Ojo's approach has been very positive, and I hope he continues to do what he's doing.

Nice work Matt, thanks for taking the time to do it. I guess what we're looking for is something positive from this, i personally am trying,  and the fact that we were the better side initially helps slightly.

From what you're saying you don't sound too downbeat, is this the case?

Like you i'm trying not to bash Fonte, but finding it increasingly difficult to do so.

I was utterly defeated on Saturday. I just didn't want to do anything. If we had played terrible the get go, with no sense of attack and being dominated in possession, I would have accepted this defeat. Problem is we played a solid first half, and due to the bad decision making we were cheated out of a proper showing. I think it did shed light on Slav's stubborness and lack of keeping things simple for the sake of the situation.

Regarding Fonte, it's tough because you want to support a player that wants to be a team player, but his stock is falling because he has only 1 goal to his name. I can't defend him if he doesn't make any effort to score goals. I can wish him luck because his days have been numbered for a while. In isolation he does the things a teammate would want him to do, except actually taking a risk and shooting, let alone scoring goals.

Excellent report. Nice one.

Are you a GCSE teacher? Those scores seem a tad generous for a 3 1 defeat to Brentford.

Haha, they are a bit generous I know. In a collective sense, I can see they would receive poor marks, but individually, it's hard to see many issues. I think overall this supports what we already know, it was poor decision making by a player and coach. Chain reaction of events and no matter what every player was going to be affected.

Good write up Matt, though as said earlier the marks seem over generous. The award of 3 A's and 7 B's almost makes me wonder how we lost, just imagine if our players had an off day, we would have been hammered (said sarcastically).  :dft012:

Haha, I know, Dave, I know. That's the thing, reviewing the match, it's hard to find too many faults by our individual players. That is what makes it even more frustrating.

Good analysis but as a few have said a little generous.  Cairney offered nothing defensively and looked like he was running in Treacle in the build up to the first goal.   Little leadership shown, but he of course shows his class for the crossbar shot.  Very poor decision making by Odoi and Slav.  Most of your observations are however spot on.  Assume you are American from the way you write, so well done mate.

Thanks, Stu. Yeah, sorry my writing is all over the place sometime. Video isn't any better, but I was definitely thinking out loud more on this one :)

Good point about TC defensively. Honestly, I didn't pay attention to him on that side of the ball, so I may take another look later on. I do remember his rash challenge that got him booked though. Frustration set in for him right after that red card.


Offline Matt10

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 08:01:00 PM »
You’ve given a lot of A’s and B’s which is very generous IMO.

Johansen at ST is a huge negative. We don't need 4 midfielders to keep the ball, and SJ playing Johansen just proves to me that he’s lost it. Going to extreme lengths to keep his current, and seemingly only, style of play.

How much longer can we blame poor finishing? It’s getting mundane and boring.

Its an interesting and positive spin, I agree with the sentiment of FactsNot Fiction that you're being too generous and overall the issues are the same every week so its becoming very frustrating:
1. Strange line up choice against a team who had struggled against Matt Smith the prior week, but Slav got away with it for the first 30 minutes. However, even then Brentford looked very fluid and we were yet again not clinical, maybe not having a recognized striker was part of that.
2. Brentford get gifted a goal by waltzing through our midfield and then finally by Button diving over the ball (how you can give TC an A and Norwood a B on this goal alone) and we do not strike back, we go into the HT at 1-1.
3. Yet again another team comes out fired up while we come out cold. My gut feeling is the dressing room at half time was not a fun place to be - arguments about line up and Button I am sure coming out. If you are a defender how can you feel confident with Button behind you and how frustrating is his distribution for every other player?
4. Slav yet again tactically makes no change as we go 1-2, 10 men and then 1-3. He stalls, is uncertain, does not make the right call when Odoi gets his last warning. Makes bad subs - wrong people at wrong time.

If this was a one off - "bad day at the office" I would be more positive like you but this is happening too often. I was at Bolton game and again at Millwall and both games gave clear indications that we are coached to play in a way that we do not currently have the players or the players fit enough to be successful at and Slav's stubborn resistance to either using his full squad or make key changes in tactics means we are a busted flush. Every other team knows how to capitalize on our mistakes and they know we never change so keep at it. Those two were the worst opposition we will play all year and we struggled against them. This team has enough quality players to be further up the table than we are but he either refuses to play them, like Saturday, or make key changes, like drop Button, sub Odoi and from how bad we are at beginning of second half I am starting to think he is losing the squad after his motivational efforts seem to have the opposite effect.

Sorry but having watched it again yesterday too - Sundays are boring here as well - I think you are way too optimistic.

I'm just naturally optimistic, and yes, sometimes to a fault. I believe in being positive because it is too easy to be negative. It drives my wife mad :)

With that said I do agree with you that the status quo of our team is in trouble, and our performance is always a tale of two halves. I don't claim to know about the inner workings of the locker room because I'm not there, so again, I don't have control over that.

I think the collective frustration is the fact that Slav's system is not OUR system. What we believe is we need a true striker. The problem is Slav doesn't approach his system that way. If it wasn't more obvious, look at our goal scoring from the CF/Striker position. Look at the matches and the role they play in Slav's system. It's not a QPR, Bolton, Wolves, literally any team in the league. What we have vs what we want is completely separate. Isolating individual strikers and forwards across the league does nothing beneficial because Slav doesn't adjust his system to the players, he adjusts his players to the system.

I'm not part of the crowd that wants him out, but I'm also not naive enough to think he's not doing himself any favors by these inconsistent and misfirings on simple concepts. Overall, he's made things too complicated this season, and I think that is fairly obvious to see. The only thing I'm left to really "grade" is the fundamentals of the players he chooses. Someone in one of the threads made a great point how we play players out of position, and we shouldn't be surprised that some of the key mistakes have been a direct result of that. I tend to agree, but again, I won't fault the player unless it's a very basic fundamental or performance.

Offline Bill2

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2017, 04:48:42 PM »
Only watched the highlights, can't bring myself to watch the full 90. Anyway, I have not seen any comment on here about Brentford's 1st goal. GJ mentioned it but there was a Brentford player standing right in front of Button who while did not touch the ball was clearly obstructing his vision and from the video is clearly offside. Am I going to have another rant about referees or was there another player who was playing him on.

As for Odoi, he was plain stupid and again from the highlights was not showing any injury, but why did he do the tackle he did. If he was injured he should have never been in the fullback position and should have got some cover until he had run it off.

Online Woolly Mammoth

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 09:00:27 PM »
Only watched the highlights, can't bring myself to watch the full 90. Anyway, I have not seen any comment on here about Brentford's 1st goal. GJ mentioned it but there was a Brentford player standing right in front of Button who while did not touch the ball was clearly obstructing his vision and from the video is clearly offside. Am I going to have another rant about referees or was there another player who was playing him on.

As for Odoi, he was plain stupid and again from the highlights was not showing any injury, but why did he do the tackle he did. If he was injured he should have never been in the fullback position and should have got some cover until he had run it off.

Watching the breakdown of this match again, almost gave me a nervous breakdown.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘


Offline Matt10

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 03:22:13 AM »
Only watched the highlights, can't bring myself to watch the full 90. Anyway, I have not seen any comment on here about Brentford's 1st goal. GJ mentioned it but there was a Brentford player standing right in front of Button who while did not touch the ball was clearly obstructing his vision and from the video is clearly offside. Am I going to have another rant about referees or was there another player who was playing him on.

As for Odoi, he was plain stupid and again from the highlights was not showing any injury, but why did he do the tackle he did. If he was injured he should have never been in the fullback position and should have got some cover until he had run it off.

Agreed, it looked offsides to me. If anything, Odoi was on the backpost keeping him on, but it looked offsides to me. I was surprised to not see the players put up more of an argument to the linesman though.

Odoi is what just didn't make sense. Anyone knows if you're injured, you sit down on your bum and wait for the trainer. It was so obvious, and other than pride, I can't think of why he didn't listen to his body to take a break. He had cover on all his fouls, they just weren't necessary, and were blatant.

Oh well, moving on. Curious to see what lineup is Saturday.

Offline RaySmith

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 05:38:55 AM »
His injury may have affected him, and frustration.

Not sure how bad the second yellow was but he'd been warned. He was wound up anyway, and it  might have been better for him to have come off when he was first injured, though he didn't go down, as said - but maybe that was because he was wound up and frustrated with the way things were going.

Someone should have had a word with him, though the ref did speak to him, along with TC. The whole thing was a shambles, like this game, which we lost after going in front, and having further chances to score - crucial, good  ones missed, and bad luck in the case of TC's shot which hit the bar.

But we live to fight another day.
COYW!
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 06:17:11 AM by RaySmith »

Online Woolly Mammoth

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 10:30:00 AM »
We do live to fight another day, and most of this season has been a shambles.
But there is still time to turn this season around, and no I haven’t been sniffing glue.
It can be turned around if the club identify the issues that need to be addressed, just like the man in the street can see, and support the manager in the transfer window, no matter what it takes, and before it’s too late.
Because the alternative come the end of the season does not bear thinking about.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘


Offline Bill2

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2017, 05:09:24 PM »
We do live to fight another day, and most of this season has been a shambles.
But there is still time to turn this season around, and no I haven’t been sniffing glue.
It can be turned around if the club identify the issues that need to be addressed, just like the man in the street can see, and support the manager in the transfer window, no matter what it takes, and before it’s too late.
Because the alternative come the end of the season does not bear thinking about.

I don't believe we are a bad side but we are heading for mid table mediocrity unless we do something in the Jan window. To me it has to be the acquisition of an out and out centre forward to put away all the crosses we put in the box. Don't ask me who but there must be someone out there maybe in a lower division and not someone from abroad who may have to settle in which is a luxury we don't have time for.

Offline Matt10

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Re: My thoughts, and breakdown, on the Brentford match
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2017, 08:20:06 PM »
His injury may have affected him, and frustration.

Not sure how bad the second yellow was but he'd been warned. He was wound up anyway, and it  might have been better for him to have come off when he was first injured, though he didn't go down, as said - but maybe that was because he was wound up and frustrated with the way things were going.

Someone should have had a word with him, though the ref did speak to him, along with TC. The whole thing was a shambles, like this game, which we lost after going in front, and having further chances to score - crucial, good  ones missed, and bad luck in the case of TC's shot which hit the bar.

But we live to fight another day.
COYW!

I think maybe that's where the notion of not having a leader strong enough, or vocal enough, on the field is hurting? I'm not sure where I fall in this camp, but TC strikes me as a leader by what he does, not what he says. I didn't see anyone else talk to Odoi either, but maybe last year Malone would have said something in his ear to pump him back up.

Regarding Odoi, and just speculation, we know he was out of position in CB, but the pride could have came through because he didn't start as often last year, and wanted to hold onto his spot.

We do live to fight another day, and most of this season has been a shambles.
But there is still time to turn this season around, and no I haven’t been sniffing glue.
It can be turned around if the club identify the issues that need to be addressed, just like the man in the street can see, and support the manager in the transfer window, no matter what it takes, and before it’s too late.
Because the alternative come the end of the season does not bear thinking about.

Oddly optimistic, Wooly!

There's definitely time to turn it around. Last season we started our turn around in October. Maybe ours this year starts a bit late?

I hope Slav gets his guys for January, but like I said in this thread, he better start adjusting for the players he has not for the system he wants to create, and frankly, over-elaborate.

We do live to fight another day, and most of this season has been a shambles.
But there is still time to turn this season around, and no I haven’t been sniffing glue.
It can be turned around if the club identify the issues that need to be addressed, just like the man in the street can see, and support the manager in the transfer window, no matter what it takes, and before it’s too late.
Because the alternative come the end of the season does not bear thinking about.

I don't believe we are a bad side but we are heading for mid table mediocrity unless we do something in the Jan window. To me it has to be the acquisition of an out and out centre forward to put away all the crosses we put in the box. Don't ask me who but there must be someone out there maybe in a lower division and not someone from abroad who may have to settle in which is a luxury we don't have time for.

January is such a tough window, but I like your thinking in a player who is acclimated to the league style. While I don't think it's 100% the players we have now that are the problem, I do believe some sort of rejuvinating signing will make up for those who are upset about the signing of Fonte. I think a big forward works for what we want in our system, but it all comes down to what kind of consistent lineup the manager wants to put out there. I also think there has to be some responsibility towards our players who don't like to cross the ball. With the exception of last week, it's been a work in progress. We have a system that is built on building numbers at max capacity. Meaning our fullbacks will 90% of the time be the ones to cross the ball. That takes a lot of build up required, and maintaining of possession. We need to be much more direct without using our fullbacks as often, or if we do use them, we send in first time crosses. Obviously we have players that can score from crosses, we've done it, so I'm not one to 100% believe we need a big strong forward to do that. I just think we need to be more direct. There needs to be a message of intent, and not one to lollygag and play sexy football with no reward.