Author Topic: Is Khan planning long term theory.  (Read 828 times)

Offline General

  • Jimmy Hill
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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 01:28:57 PM »
I am just putting forward a thought that he may not be the villain he is normally made out to be.

I don't see Khan as either villain or victim but simply someone who has a lot of money but lives in the USA and doesn't know a lot about English football. I'd like to see him outside a ground talking to 'ordinary' supporters in the manner of the after match Brentford video.  Perhaps then he'd be a bit more, and better, 'advised' about what to do next.  When Khan visited CC and after the game 'Fred' asked him if he was off to watch his team play at Wembley his answer suggested to me that Fulham is just another item in his shopping bag.  I remain unconvinced he has any deep interest in Fulham at all.   

I have to admit, I have always been under the impression that Fulham is second to the Jags and everything he's said and done since hasn't done anything to change this perception.

Re the stadium/club going first, I do see how it makes sense - especially if you're going to permanently take away one side of the stadium - how it'd be stadium first and then playing squad. The thing that worries me though is how having only a capacity of 18,000 will affect our ability to attract players with the FFP. How does FFP get affected by this?

Ideally I'd like to see us groundshare again in order to keep the figures up (although not sure who has a capacity nearby similar to ours) and I wouldn't like to see the squad take a hit due to the redevelopment.

Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 01:31:52 PM »
MK Dons have a lovely stadium with lots of shops and restaurants close by. Obviously the football is rubbish!

My reading of the Riverside plans is that it is about maximizing ancillary revenues, not about investing in the squad.

Let’s say the Riverside costs £100M to complete.   That money comes from Khan, who can afford it but does nothing to harm FFP.

Now say the new stand with flats, revenue from non football and extra revenue from football brings in an extra £10M a year, you can take that extra £10M away from what we spend on transfers because it does count towards FFP.  In other words, the stand allows us to spend £10M a year more on players than we would be able too without it.

Similarly we have spent £10M on Motspur Park which does not count towards FFP, but if we unearth a Roberts or Sessegnon every 2 or 3 years, and sell them for £10M plus, that’s another £10M we have to build the squad, or better still gain a £10M player for nothing.

Offline Statto

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 01:51:12 PM »
To clarify my comment Stu, I agree with you developing the ground makes us more sustainable and is a good long-term stategy, and if/when Khan actually delivers on this it will indeed suggest that’s Khan’s plan.

I just don’t agree with this suggestion that it justifies delaying near-term expenditure on the team.

Unless we’re saying Khan can afford the £100m for the ground but not additional £13m on top of that for players. Ie if his budget for all fulham spending is £100m and not a penny more, so player spending and the development are genuinely “either, or” options... which cannot be true

As to the extra revenue when it’s built in 2022 allowing us to spend more under FFP, all I’ll say is if FFP is still relevant (ie, if we’re still in the Championship) in 2022... well khan will already be an utter bloody villain in my eyes no matter what he does/spends thereafter
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 01:54:17 PM by Statto »


Offline toshes mate

  • Jimmy Hill
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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 02:17:00 PM »
There are extra running costs attached to both the Riverside development and Motspur Park which must be offset against any additional revenues they bring in and I'd like to believe a lot of the procrastination over stadium development has been caused by running the rule over such things and realising the risks involved.  Developing traffic along the riverside walk between Hammersmith Bridge and Putney Bridge is going to take some effort to achieve given that the current walk around the stadium adds a couple of hundred yards to a pleasant afternoon stroll and isn't going to be so popular outside better weather. 

Now if the complex added live music, concerts, entertainment and sporting facilities other than football then traffic might increase but the stadium is located in the middle of a residential area with a park and river on two sides and those facilities need licenses and local community agreement.   If there is going to be shopping and hospitality facilities then they are not exactly going to be instantly popular or have a wide spectrum of custom overnight.  Perhaps Khan already has some commercial interest for what he proposes but what if it fails?

I just feel that a huge part of what is going on is not going to bring the kind of revenues in that people are talking about.

In any event, as Statto says, if we are in the PL then (a) why worry about FFP? and (b) take a risk with developing something that may really raise interest and temperatures among the local resident.... 

Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 09:46:14 PM »
To clarify my comment Stu, I agree with you developing the ground makes us more sustainable and is a good long-term stategy, and if/when Khan actually delivers on this it will indeed suggest that’s Khan’s plan.

I just don’t agree with this suggestion that it justifies delaying near-term expenditure on the team.

Unless we’re saying Khan can afford the £100m for the ground but not additional £13m on top of that for players. Ie if his budget for all fulham spending is £100m and not a penny more, so player spending and the development are genuinely “either, or” options... which cannot be true

As to the extra revenue when it’s built in 2022 allowing us to spend more under FFP, all I’ll say is if FFP is still relevant (ie, if we’re still in the Championship) in 2022... well khan will already be an utter bloody villain in my eyes no matter what he does/spends thereafter

Yes, agree with all of that.

Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 09:52:47 PM »
There are extra running costs attached to both the Riverside development and Motspur Park which must be offset against any additional revenues they bring in and I'd like to believe a lot of the procrastination over stadium development has been caused by running the rule over such things and realising the risks involved.  Developing traffic along the riverside walk between Hammersmith Bridge and Putney Bridge is going to take some effort to achieve given that the current walk around the stadium adds a couple of hundred yards to a pleasant afternoon stroll and isn't going to be so popular outside better weather. 

Now if the complex added live music, concerts, entertainment and sporting facilities other than football then traffic might increase but the stadium is located in the middle of a residential area with a park and river on two sides and those facilities need licenses and local community agreement.   If there is going to be shopping and hospitality facilities then they are not exactly going to be instantly popular or have a wide spectrum of custom overnight.  Perhaps Khan already has some commercial interest for what he proposes but what if it fails?

I just feel that a huge part of what is going on is not going to bring the kind of revenues in that people are talking about.

In any event, as Statto says, if we are in the PL then (a) why worry about FFP? and (b) take a risk with developing something that may really raise interest and temperatures among the local resident.... 

Are you seriously saying the new stand is a waste of time ?
If you are then, I totally disagree.  Craven Cottage is a beautiful football ground but totally lacks facilities required to compete in the modern era.   We will continue to fall behind others if we don’t improve the facilities.  I would hope the Hammersmith end and Putney ends are developed soonish after the completion of the Riverside.    Hopefully I got the jist of your post wrong.

Just to add, the club must have done significant research on what will or will not bring in additional revenue via the new stand, does anyone have any inside info on this ?


Offline Carborundum

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 08:22:49 AM »
I start from the premise that business is always about people, not things, and that family business is always about family people - no-one else matters in the same way.

So the prospect of a new stand, and prospect is all it is, is but a minor piece on the chess board.  The two players, Mr Khan Snr and Jnr hunched over the board locked in a lengthy tussle.  Will the prospect of a new stand be sacrificed in some greater gambit or make to the end game to be played with a flourish?  Don’t know.  They probably don’t either.

What’s the whole thing about?  My guess is Mr Khan cares passionately about car parts business that he grew from nothing and gridiron, the sport he followed for decades. His son hasn’t yet displayed his clearly exceptional business talent.  The nice way to present it is that Fulham allows Jnr to make mistakes and learn before carrying that through in what really matters, or opt for a playboy lifestyle and let the businesses in the US be run by business people.

It’s not that Mr Khan doesn’t have a passion for Fulham, it’s that he doesn’t have a passion for association football.  He quite likes being a sports club owner though.

None of this makes him a bad owner, just my estimation of what is really going on.

Online MJG

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 08:54:16 AM »
Im sure its a mixture of long term and short term thinking. Its the only way running a football club can work.
Long term is the Stand and Craven Cottage as a whole, Motspur Park upgrades plus purchase of other land, Youth team development and long term contracts for players.
Short term is the need to go up but also to set in place plans if that does not happen (refer to the long contracts above as part of that) and support given to the First Team setup. Many believe thats splashing cash and that will solve all the problems and its doesn't, it can actually increase problems through debt and sanctions if it all goes wrong.
Just the views of a long term fan

Offline toshes mate

  • Jimmy Hill
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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 09:13:36 AM »
Are you seriously saying the new stand is a waste of time ?
If you are then, I totally disagree.  Craven Cottage is a beautiful football ground but totally lacks facilities required to compete in the modern era. 
What makes Craven Cottage a charismatic football stadium is the part of it that is listed property.  The Riverside is unattractive and has not aged well but then it wasn't planned well either.  The single most important part of the original intention of the development of the Riverside/Hammersmith/Putney sides (the only sides that can be developed) was to increase capacity pushing the maximum close to or slightly above 30k.  That was when we were still in the PL.   Football attendances are not a particularly successful revenue raiser outside perhaps the top half of the PL, i.e the most successful clubs, and even then TV/media money still trumps everything else because of its certainty regardless of being best playing the game of football.  Improving stadium ambience and atmosphere by filling them to capacity has always been good for the spectacle of game, paradoxically the case with smaller clubs and smaller grounds.  The larger grounds which are seldom full have little or no ambience and atmosphere, hence the argument they have no soul.  So how do you look at a development plan? 

My take on stadium development has always been the necessity of obtaining revenue unrelated to the football business and, as I said in my previous post which you clearly haven't noted, it is that that should drive a development because otherwise it is simply indulgence which will not further the cause of the club involved.  Football stadia are more often (by a long way) empty than they are full and that is something football as a business needs to address particularly given the situation of certain grounds like Craven Cottage.  There are a lot of ways that Craven Cottage income could be improved.  I saw some evidence of it in the original Riverside update plan but I don't see it in the new one and I guess that is because the reports didn't reveal any likelihood of successfully diversifying Craven Cottage.


Offline Statto

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 09:28:04 AM »
Many believe thats splashing cash and that will solve all the problems and its doesn't, it can actually increase problems through debt and sanctions if it all goes wrong.

For me, and I presume a lot of others, the call for short-term spending on players comes with the implied caveat that it’s within the limits of FFP. But that still leaves room for Khan to inject significant capital and underwrite significant losses. I just want to see that happening (and I acknowledge things like our big money approach for Gayle suggest that money is there, which is reassuring)

Online MJG

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2017, 09:30:42 AM »
Many believe thats splashing cash and that will solve all the problems and its doesn't, it can actually increase problems through debt and sanctions if it all goes wrong.

For me, and I presume a lot of others, the call for short-term spending on players comes with the implied caveat that it’s within the limits of FFP. But that still leaves room for Khan to inject significant capital and underwrite significant losses. I just want to see that happening (and I acknowledge things like our big money approach for Gayle suggest that money is there, which is reassuring)
I dont disagree with that. Although I'm not one who advocates spending every penny to the limit either. There has to balance in it somewhere. The 'splashing cash' quote is really aimed at those who dont think FFP or sensible use of money should come in to play.
Just the views of a long term fan

Online MJG

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2017, 09:31:50 AM »
Are you seriously saying the new stand is a waste of time ?
If you are then, I totally disagree.  Craven Cottage is a beautiful football ground but totally lacks facilities required to compete in the modern era. 
There are a lot of ways that Craven Cottage income could be improved.  I saw some evidence of it in the original Riverside update plan but I don't see it in the new one and I guess that is because the reports didn't reveal any likelihood of successfully diversifying Craven Cottage.
I have to disagree with this take on the two plans. The new plan gives a lot more time (and space) to non match day income than the previous plan.
Just the views of a long term fan


Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2017, 10:50:53 AM »
Are you seriously saying the new stand is a waste of time ?
If you are then, I totally disagree.  Craven Cottage is a beautiful football ground but totally lacks facilities required to compete in the modern era. 
There are a lot of ways that Craven Cottage income could be improved.  I saw some evidence of it in the original Riverside update plan but I don't see it in the new one and I guess that is because the reports didn't reveal any likelihood of successfully diversifying Craven Cottage.
I have to disagree with this take on the two plans. The new plan gives a lot more time (and space) to non match day income than the previous plan.

My understanding is the new stand will include flats, resteraunts, a massive increase in corporate facilities, a pub, bars, open to the public not just match days.   Could easily use for weddings, funerals you name it.  Surely this is all increased revenue.   Sorry if I misread your original post but I really can’t see your objection ?   I can understand some people not loving the design, personally think it’s fantastic and do agree the current stand is terrible in design terms.  Surely however you can see that it will be a revenue earner, and that extra revenue counts towards balancing FFP which has to be a good thing does it not ?

By the way, the original Al-Fayed design moved the Cottage and totally rebuilt the Stevenage Road stand leaving just the facade, brick work facing out.  I think this was also approved before Mo changed his mind because he thought £100M was too much money.

Offline copthornemike

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2017, 11:05:15 AM »
Actually I am impressed with the way Khan seems to be going for quality rather than looking for the cheapest or quick fix options.

In the long term it is critical that the redesign is done properly. When it is completed the supporters will be living with the outcome longer than Khan and is family are likely to do so - so give him some credit. A poor quality and/or run down stadium is a potential target for developers as we only know too well from our not so recent history. A well designed stadium with modern facilities which still retains the uniqueness of our beautiful ground can only be good for the long term sustainability of the club.

It is apparent to me that poor owners splash the cash on short term vanity issues (expensive players & managers) and interfere with team selection. The better ones balance the necessities of seeking to continually upgrading the playing side with also improving the infrastructure (the ground and training facilities).

We all have legitimate criticisms of how the team went downhill when he took over from Al Fayed (possibly the down turn might have happened anyway) but it seems to me he is one of the better ones and hopefully he has learned the lessons of recent years.

If his legacy is a sustainable club with a modern stadium and training ground, which continues to develope good young players and a team which consistently challenges for promotion from the Championship I will take that - if on the way we can get into the Premiership and importantly stay amd compete there even better.     

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Is Khan planning long term theory.
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2017, 11:23:44 AM »
Where is the evidence of 'massive' corporate and hospitality revenue increase?  For sure the 'flats' will make a 'healthy' return but even that will not be 'massive' in terms of the kind of money required to improve the balance sheets of an average sized football club.  I certainly want the stadium improved it is that I just don't see this latest design doing anything other than building another stand that will not age gracefully and could even become an eyesore as fashions change.

My understanding of the listings on the JH Stand and the Cottage is that it is their entirety but my understanding may be incorrect.