Director of Football versus Manager old chestnut

[YoungsBitter]

There has been a lot of discussion on the board about whether Joka stays, whether he gets the January transfer window to address issues not resolved in the summer under Kline and what, if anything, changes now Kline has left.

Originally we set our stall out after Magath's fiasco of a reign that Mike Rigg was Director of Football and therefore we needed a Head Coach not a Manager. On those terms Slavisa signed (finally), similar to his role at Watford. He has bitched and moaned at every transfer break about lack of involvement in transfers and someone did the research, he did the same at Watford.
Rigg had some pedigree and was a "football man" so on one level it made sense. Roll the clock forward and Rigg leaves and this February Tony Khan steps up to Director of Football Operations - slight difference, probably to address the fact he does not know that much about Football and Kline was Assistant Director of Football. We experience a very mixed summer signing window and last January's was farcical, Joka throws his hands up in despair and starts ignoring some of the signings just on their links to Kline. Rumors arise that Kline is also trying to influence match day selection. Happily for all involved Khan senior finally kicks Kline out.

At the moment Kline has not been replaced but James Lovell, already in the stats group would fill in, so it comes down to Khan and Brian Talbot so I fully expect we go from the two boxes ticked to three boxes ticked, Coach, Scouting and Stats and hopefully some of the more hard line rules such as age and no-one from lower divisions will get set aside.
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him. Having an inexperienced and willing son of the owner is fine from a generic business basis, negotiating contracts etc but he cannot advise Slavisa, he just will not be listened to if nothing else. Ali Mac is supposedly the business brain so maybe Tony Khan's role is duplication but you get to write the rules when you are the boss.

So I hope whether Joka stays or goes at some point we get in a real Director of Football or change to a Manager.

[YoungsBitter]

However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him. 

So if the problem according to you is "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions", and the solution according to you is (if we don't sack Jokanovic) to bring in a DoF, then it can only follow that what you are actually suggesting, to be clear, is we bring in a DoF and let him interfere with Jokanovic's team selection and substitution decisions. Not sure that one is going to fly to be honest with you  079.gif

I understand that may be naive but the frustration is that in any other business when something is not working there are efforts to help or fix it - at a senior level it happens as well as standard employees. Yet in football we leave these "managers" with varying degrees of skills to sink or swim ...we all like what Joka has brought us in terms of some great football and a style but this is a guy who has never been in any job longer than 2 seasons. How is he supposed to learn if he is just left on his own? We all need some help and I don't think Stuart Grey is working ....


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[Marcel_Gecov]

There has been a lot of discussion on the board about whether Joka stays, whether he gets the January transfer window to address issues not resolved in the summer under Kline and what, if anything, changes now Kline has left.

Originally we set our stall out after Magath's fiasco of a reign that Mike Rigg was Director of Football and therefore we needed a Head Coach not a Manager. On those terms Slavisa signed (finally), similar to his role at Watford. He has bitched and moaned at every transfer break about lack of involvement in transfers and someone did the research, he did the same at Watford.
Rigg had some pedigree and was a "football man" so on one level it made sense. Roll the clock forward and Rigg leaves and this February Tony Khan steps up to Director of Football Operations - slight difference, probably to address the fact he does not know that much about Football and Kline was Assistant Director of Football. We experience a very mixed summer signing window and last January's was farcical, Joka throws his hands up in despair and starts ignoring some of the signings just on their links to Kline. Rumors arise that Kline is also trying to influence match day selection. Happily for all involved Khan senior finally kicks Kline out.

At the moment Kline has not been replaced but James Lovell, already in the stats group would fill in, so it comes down to Khan and Brian Talbot so I fully expect we go from the two boxes ticked to three boxes ticked, Coach, Scouting and Stats and hopefully some of the more hard line rules such as age and no-one from lower divisions will get set aside.
However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him. Having an inexperienced and willing son of the owner is fine from a generic business basis, negotiating contracts etc but he cannot advise Slavisa, he just will not be listened to if nothing else. Ali Mac is supposedly the business brain so maybe Tony Khan's role is duplication but you get to write the rules when you are the boss.

So I hope whether Joka stays or goes at some point we get in a real Director of Football or change to a Manager.

Also this idea of a 'manager' doesn't fly with smaller clubs like ourselves.

Teams that we should be looking to emulate, Watford, Southampton etc all function with a Head Coach and it works very well for the. Southampton's process in regards to replacing the conveyor belt of poached talent (Shaw, Lovren, Schneiderlin, etc) is exactly what we need to be doing and when you look at our setup with Huw Jennings and Malcolm Elias it doesnt take a brain surgeon to consider that this might well be the model we looking at. Now, dont get me wrong, the current set up is poor but Joka seems to be the right guy and I for one would be happy to see him with until at lest the end of his contract.

The tricky bit for me is the DOF role, people want a 'football man' to which I offer Rigg, Dougie Freedman, etc as reasons why that's too simplistic a view. In an ideal world, I would look for a Rasmus Ankersen who can hold this all together who isnt a household name (lets face it, the reason these ex-players get a job is because there is a lack of imagination in most club management structures - see: Allardyce, Pardew last week) but offers a philosophy we can all get behind. I am a big fan of what we are trying to do and a few tweaks will see us home.

[Marcel_Gecov]

However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games really needs a Director of Football who knows the game and can advise or 'coach' him. 

So if the problem according to you is "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions", and the solution according to you is (if we don't sack Jokanovic) to bring in a DoF, then it can only follow that what you are actually suggesting, to be clear, is we bring in a DoF and let him interfere with Jokanovic's team selection and substitution decisions. Not sure that one is going to fly to be honest with you  079.gif

I understand that may be naive but the frustration is that in any other business when something is not working there are efforts to help or fix it - at a senior level it happens as well as standard employees. Yet in football we leave these "managers" with varying degrees of skills to sink or swim ...we all like what Joka has brought us in terms of some great football and a style but this is a guy who has never been in any job longer than 2 seasons. How is he supposed to learn if he is just left on his own? We all need some help and I don't think Stuart Grey is working ....


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May I ask what evidence suggests to you that Stuart Gray isn't working?

[toshes mate]

Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?

The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it. 

[Marcel_Gecov]

Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?

The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.

Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.

[bill taylors apprentice]

Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?

The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.

Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.

I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?

[Marcel_Gecov]

Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?

The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.

Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.

I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?

Usual story regarding DOF vs Manager argument. IMO shows a lack of understanding as to how it works. It isn't the DOF's job to help with subs etc, if Joka needs help with that he isnt right. For what it's worth, I dont think he does need help with this, the problem is our bench options arent good enough and that makes making positive changes tricky.

[toshes mate]

I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?

I think you know exactly what has been going on.  A few others may tumble soon, hopefully.

[Marcel_Gecov]

Is it really possible that an experienced coach can stubbornly refuse to give players, who have proved they are good enough, match time when his own coaching subordinates and players are given achievement training targets and continual assessments for potential selection to the first team squad or are these just the ramblings of a petty stats manipulator and those who think they could manage Fulham better were they in charge?

The answer should be pretty darned obvious and, if I believed it might be worth it, I could also produce some pretty concrete evidence to prove it.

Sorry Toshes mate, I'm struggling to understand this post.

I understand whats being said by Tosh's mate but I'm struggling to understand what the OP was trying to say?

Usual story regarding DOF vs Manager argument. IMO shows a lack of understanding as to how it works. It isn't the DOF's job to help with subs etc, if Joka needs help with that he isnt right. For what it's worth, I dont think he does need help with this, the problem is our bench options arent good enough and that makes making positive changes tricky.

The thing is the OP seems to be suggesting either (a) bring in a DoF to do half of the current coach's job for him, thereby diminishing the coach's role, or (b) swap the coach for a "manager" with a much broader role than the current coach... (a) and (b) seem contradictory To me .., maybe this is causing the confusion

Indeed, it comes down to the structure of the business and to swap to a manager will require another restructure. Not going to happen IMO. What we need is a DOF with a tangible vision which almost can be recited in a single sentence - "to grow a team of excellent youngsters with compelling resell value." What we've had is a stats team which hasnt worked well and a diminished scouting team (allegedly)

[bill taylors apprentice]

OK! It seems our club is following the line that Managers/Head coaches (call them whatever you like) come and go and to avoid the massive changes every time this happens, you put a different structure in place to minimize the fall out.

So we can have a DoF and other permanent staff such as Grant, Wigely & Gray as well as the HC and his team. That's not rocket science but even if the idea is the HC concentrates on running the 1st team and not the recruitment surely the HC has to be part of the recruitment process as he's the one who ultimately succeeds or fails and has to work with the players.

I don't have a problem with a DoF type guy but there can only ever be 3 ticks ............ and the man who picks the team and sets it up has to have the final say on who's bought in!

1. Scouting and Stats find players and are ultimately under the leadership of a Director of Football or whatever you call him
2. The HC/Manager agrees with the choice and gives the go ahead to pursue the player.
3. The man who writes the cheques has to agree the players within our budget or at least a possibility.

There's the 3 ticks but while ultimately its down to cost it should never have got that far if the HC doesn't fancy the player earlier in the process.
Simple!

[YoungsBitter]

I agree with that approach as probably most of us do.
My original issue was not that i have an issue with DOF/HC structure rather that I don't think Tony Khan is qualified to be DOF and currently Jokanovic is on his own. I also do not think that the DOF should interfere in day to day coaching, however I also think Joka is struggling at times and the right DOF could give guidance or advice.
I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working as he had has been here 2 years and we still can't defend for sh1t and he stands right next to Slav when he has made some recent poor subs.


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[Woolly Mammoth]

OK! It seems our club is following the line that Managers/Head coaches (call them whatever you like) come and go and to avoid the massive changes every time this happens, you put a different structure in place to minimize the fall out.

So we can have a DoF and other permanent staff such as Grant, Wigely & Gray as well as the HC and his team. That's not rocket science but even if the idea is the HC concentrates on running the 1st team and not the recruitment surely the HC has to be part of the recruitment process as he's the one who ultimately succeeds or fails and has to work with the players.

I don't have a problem with a DoF type guy but there can only ever be 3 ticks ............ and the man who picks the team and sets it up has to have the final say on who's bought in!

1. Scouting and Stats find players and are ultimately under the leadership of a Director of Football or whatever you call him
2. The HC/Manager agrees with the choice and gives the go ahead to pursue the player.
3. The man who writes the cheques has to agree the players within our budget or at least a possibility.

There's the 3 ticks but while ultimately its down to cost it should never have got that far if the HC doesn't fancy the player earlier in the process.
Simple!

The current Director of Football who happens to be the Chairman's son, gosh, golly, there's a surprise. With Kline is are were the Catalysts in all our issues of failure, like Kline, Khan Junior is unqualified and an amateur at his roll, and until he is replaced or sent to the Tower of London, Jok I doubt will never be happy.

[filham]

The team performance should be the responsibility of one person, split the job and when things get sticky each person will take 5% responsibility.

[Marcel_Gecov]

I agree with that approach as probably most of us do.
My original issue was not that i have an issue with DOF/HC structure rather that I don't think Tony Khan is qualified to be DOF and currently Jokanovic is on his own. I also do not think that the DOF should interfere in day to day coaching, however I also think Joka is struggling at times and the right DOF could give guidance or advice.
I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working as he had has been here 2 years and we still can't defend for sh1t and he stands right next to Slav when he has made some recent poor subs.


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May I ask what proof you have that Stuart Gray is offering advice for defenders? He is essentially an assistant and carries out what Joka suggests. Also we don't know their relationship and it might be Joka simply thinks they'd work well together and enjoys keeping him around.
Fans cannot simply decide people are succeeding in their roles without knowing their job roles. I could decide that Albee Escobar should be fired because against Preston for example we let Jordan Hugill score and we should have known they'd simply knock the ball into the box and Escobar complies the opposition video so he's culpable. It's a laughable position and we will never know the dynamics.
However, the arrangement has lasted 100games and I'm sure it'll be fine moving forwards.

[YoungsBitter]

I agree with that approach as probably most of us do.
My original issue was not that i have an issue with DOF/HC structure rather that I don't think Tony Khan is qualified to be DOF and currently Jokanovic is on his own. I also do not think that the DOF should interfere in day to day coaching, however I also think Joka is struggling at times and the right DOF could give guidance or advice.
I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working as he had has been here 2 years and we still can't defend for sh1t and he stands right next to Slav when he has made some recent poor subs.


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May I ask what proof you have that Stuart Gray is offering advice for defenders? He is essentially an assistant and carries out what Joka suggests. Also we don't know their relationship and it might be Joka simply thinks they'd work well together and enjoys keeping him around.
Fans cannot simply decide people are succeeding in their roles without knowing their job roles. I could decide that Albee Escobar should be fired because against Preston for example we let Jordan Hugill score and we should have known they'd simply knock the ball into the box and Escobar complies the opposition video so he's culpable. It's a laughable position and we will never know the dynamics.
However, the arrangement has lasted 100games and I'm sure it'll be fine moving forwards.

I agree it is easy for us to sit and pass judgement without knowing the underlying dynamics, in my defense I did say "I don't think Stuart Grey's advice if offered, is working".

The point I think I have been making in an admittedly meandering way is that in successful businesses, generally, people are given support even at the top to help improve whereas with football that rarely seems the case. The average tenure of a Manager/Coach in the EFL is 16 months, Jokanovic is the 3rd longest serving manager in the Championship. They are generally isolated and when things on the field go wrong regardless of root cause they get fired. The more isolated they are the less likely they can get advice or counsel. If you have a good Director of Football they can help. In our case we have an absentee Chairman and an unqualified DoF in his son so I am arguing that Joka is isolated and would benefit from some support.
Anyway think I have flogged this to death....

[VancouverWhite]

However the issue still remains that we have a Coach who recently with poor subs and some stubborn selection decisions has lost us games

So last year we finished with 22 wins, 14 draws and 10 losses on the back of his "poor subs" and "stubborn selection decisions". 

This year, 7W 8D 6L

We don't really have a stacked team of world beaters so for me, looking at it objectively, he's still performing well. 

[RaySmith]

Stuart Grey is an experienced and respected  coach, and I  remember reading that he's  noted for his work with defences.

Our own  poor defending doesn't mean that  he's no good, I don't think. I'm sure our defenders practise relevant drills etc, but  obviously it's all different in an actual  Championship game, when you are playing a team of players at least as good as you are, very driven to score against you, and win the game.

I think we are set out to attack, and this puts more pressure on the defence, especially when we don't take our chances up front. Then, if you go behind it becomes an even harder struggle for the defence.

Lately Slava has been bringing on Djalo when we are  trying  hold onto a one goal lead, and keeper and defence have been hoofing the ball upfield more near the end of games, and everyone getting back to defend.

[toshes mate]

The unmissable, ever present, actors in 'Comedy of Errors' which has been performed countless times at the Cottage, have been the ones running the player recruitment and retention processes. 

Jokanovic, as he has said on many occasions, hasn't had even a bit part or walk on scene, and we can be pretty sure he has not played a meaningful role in selecting players to scout etc for a long time, if ever (because otherwise the Kline Saga scenes wouldn't have happened in any shape or form).  And so any shake up needs to be about how recruitment operates and how that operation needs staffing.  There seem to be at least two operational models available.

1)Allowing for the hit and miss element involved in all transfers there should be an average success rate across all transfer dealings in the EFL - one thing any bog standard PC could come up with much more successfully than being the key function in identifying talent - and it is upon that average that Fulham's recruitment success should be judged.  We could measure the number of appearances or squad selections as the key measure of success or failure.   If the average failure rate of transferred/loaned players is known to be about one player in four deals then our recruitment team fails if it hits a figure worse than one in four.  That means heads will roll or feet will walk.  That is treating the recruitment team in the same way as Jokanovic is judged - on performance. 

2)The other, more traditional, way of doing things is to deal with recruitment as a Club business with one person prepared to bear ultimate responsibility for whole team decisions.  It requires proper management and involves lots of hard work.

[MJG]

We have been down route two on numerous occasions and I really can't see us doing that any time soon with regards allowing a manager/head coach full control on who he wants and who he gets rid of.