Author Topic: Kebano substitution  (Read 1586 times)

Offline Twig

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Kebano substitution
« on: April 16, 2018, 10:34:17 AM »
In his interview with Getwestlondon SJ explains his decision to sub Kebano. “I need players ready to die on the pitch. I need more effort,........l”.  That sounds like a pretty direct swipe at Kebano which surprises me because I thought he was putting in a decent shift after coming on. 

It does sound like SJ just doesn’t feel Kebano fits in with his requirements. A shame but on that basis I can see him Kebano leaving this summer, promotion or no promotion.

Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 10:44:22 AM »
The explanation of the sub is as big a mystery as the event itself. I still believe that one decision cost us the game. In the same way as most of the other decisions by the coach has taken us to 21 games unbeaten. Kebano adds something we just don't have and I thought when he was on he chased down clearances and made Brentford retreat. When he went we were just hanging on as the ball just coming back. But when our coach takes a disliking to a player that seems to be it.

Offline grandad

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 10:53:00 AM »
A strange explanation as I thought we were more in command & the more likely to score a 2nd when Kebano was on.


Offline BedsFFC

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 11:17:11 AM »
A manager will be looking at what if scenarios throughout play. These will be planned out in advance in a lot of detail.

As fans, we don't know what these are. Our view is about as basic as it get's.

One observation I made before is that Brentford were clearly planning their attacks to start at the point we had the ball. It was how they exploit things when we lose possession. I was quite impressed with them at how they did this.

Clearly, our coaches were aware of this and were looking two steps ahead in terms of us having, then losing possession and how we would react when this would happen. To really combat Brentford, we needed to ensure that when we lost possession, we are ready and react quickly and fight to get the ball back. Brentford were exposing the advanced full backs when they regained possession. I think this is why Slavisa prefers Ayite as he offers more protection.

I get the feeling that Kebano (and I love the guy) is a touch one-dimensional in terms of his understanding of the play, especially when we are on the attack.

He is the sort of player that fans love but coaches see him not doing his job way up the field. A chance the other end can be 30 seconds or more from his lack of guile or fight and as a fan, we would never think to blame him for an effort against us. But the manager does. And that can seem unfair to us.

Going back not that long ago our defence took a lot of stick. Ream used to take a lot of flak for looking all at sea. I always felt at the time that our midfield were responsible for much of that

Offline KJS

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 11:26:06 AM »
21 games unbeaten so I think theat Slav has earned the right to manage as he sees fit so if he subs a sub then I don't have a problem

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 11:32:23 AM »
I do believe the current automatic choice of team (which currently does not include a settled right midfield winger) rather limited things on Saturday and I don't think sub Kebano's substitution indicated anything other than his replacement of Piazon didn't 'solve' the problems we were experiencing because our opponents were winning almost all the fifty-fifties and a lot else beside.  Even the left flank was less secure than it has been since Targett's arrival.  Even our midfield was creaking under the pressure of being driven backwards.  And so where do you change things if changing involves taking off the players who have proven reliable match winners on numerous occasions.  I thought there were just too many problems to hope one player could turn it around when a whole half time talk had failed to solve things.  Hopefully that performance is out of our system and we will come back from this 'depression' in a manner more befitting of a team on an incredible unbeaten run.

I wouldn't read anything more into Kebano's substitution other than an admission we were not the better side when, on paper and form, we should have been.


Offline toshes mate

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 11:35:54 AM »
21 games unbeaten so I think theat Slav has earned the right to manage as he sees fit so if he subs a sub then I don't have a problem
+1

Offline ..FOF..

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 11:39:29 AM »
So, back to Fonte then :)

Offline Milo

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 11:48:12 AM »
But the fans clearly see Kebano as an important, impact sub.

Just in case everyone is second guessing ourselves... the Reading fans agreed on their forum that he was an absolute menace when he came on!

It makes a lot of sense now that SJ just doesn’t like him as there was no real reason for the 2 month baron spell either. I wonder what’s gone on behind the scenes?


Offline snarks

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 12:21:57 PM »
I look at it far more simply, he wanted to change the attack, he brings on Kebano, we score. The game is nearing its end Brentford are going for it. He wants us to be tighter at the back to defend the lead, and at the same time use up some time. He subs an attacker for a defender and the player that’s furthest away. I think it was that simple.

Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 12:28:49 PM »
I look at it far more simply, he wanted to change the attack, he brings on Kebano, we score. The game is nearing its end Brentford are going for it. He wants us to be tighter at the back to defend the lead, and at the same time use up some time. He subs an attacker for a defender and the player that’s furthest away. I think it was that simple.

Exactly and very poor tactics if true. Trying to defend from the back is always far harder than trying to defend from the front with a willing runner chasing down clearances. My view is that Joka asked them to score and they did.

Offline Matt10

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 12:38:40 PM »
I look at it far more simply, he wanted to change the attack, he brings on Kebano, we score. The game is nearing its end Brentford are going for it. He wants us to be tighter at the back to defend the lead, and at the same time use up some time. He subs an attacker for a defender and the player that’s furthest away. I think it was that simple.

Exactly and very poor tactics if true. Trying to defend from the back is always far harder than trying to defend from the front with a willing runner chasing down clearances. My view is that Joka asked them to score and they did.

Yes, but the sub happened in the 80+ minute when Brentford were overloading one side of the pitch. They no longer kept their fullbacks to the defensive third, they were constantly in a state of advancement. What was the coach supposed to do? Let Fredericks mark 2-3 players at once? You can't defend from the front if you have noone to defend.


Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 12:45:20 PM »
I look at it far more simply, he wanted to change the attack, he brings on Kebano, we score. The game is nearing its end Brentford are going for it. He wants us to be tighter at the back to defend the lead, and at the same time use up some time. He subs an attacker for a defender and the player that’s furthest away. I think it was that simple.

Exactly and very poor tactics if true. Trying to defend from the back is always far harder than trying to defend from the front with a willing runner chasing down clearances. My view is that Joka asked them to score and they did.

Yes, but the sub happened in the 80+ minute when Brentford were overloading one side of the pitch. They no longer kept their fullbacks to the defensive third, they were constantly in a state of advancement. What was the coach supposed to do? Let Fredericks mark 2-3 players at once? You can't defend from the front if you have noone to defend.

His solution to bring Christie on especially playing an advanced role as he did, hardly helped the situation. The panic clearances and the fact that we seemed to lose shape either through being overly tired or poorly prepared. Didn't make it a good time to try and just wait to be bombarded by crosses. Fine to defend deep but that wasn't what happened.

Offline Matt10

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 12:53:26 PM »
I think the fans will always have the advantage because the fans can reflect based on the outcome. The coach doesn't have this luxury because they are the ones who actually have to make the decision. That's why it's not an even level playing field in terms of discussion. Fans can't separate their feelings from the decision making of what actually is ongoing on the pitch. Beds explained it perfectly in his remark. If you see the cutscenes of the Slav and his assistants, they were constantly pointing out who needed to get up the pitch, and who was lagging behind. Slav constantly motioned for the team to get up, and I believe it was because our usual high line was falling further and further back due to the pressure of their advancing fullbacks. On the right hand side, Cairney, Kebano and Fredericks could only do so much - and our captain was tiring defensively. By placing Christie in for Kebano, we now have fresh legs to start the attack and use TC as an outlet, and then fresh legs to chase down their advancing full backs, so that Fredericks can tuck in and mark the forwards central.

I already pointed it out in another thread, but Fredericks didn't tuck in and follow Maupay, but instead let him run past - which led to the goal. So for those who believe the sub decision was the reason for the goal - you need to watch the match again.





Fredericks motioned to Christie to communicate staying goal-side so the through ball wouldn't happen to their FB, but he did not follow Maupay's run behind him. Odoi and Ream were left to mark 3 men (Ream actually had 2 at one point), which resulted in the overload. They managed to get our 2 centerbacks out of sorts by overloading one side, which pulled Odoi to not be able to cover Fredericks' back, and Fredericks did not mark anyone, and didn't drop back when the ball was sent in either. That combination of events is why the chance, and goal, occurred.

I'm a big fan of Fredericks, but it's just that simple, he didn't follow his man, or anyone, and it cost us a goal. That's not making a case for the blame game, I think we do way too much of that on here, but it's more so to point exactly to what resulted in a conceded goal from the mere fact of football. Nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of why Kebano, I think that just serves as more fuel to the fire because being subbed as a sub is not a high point in any professional's career. The fact that it happened to Kebano, who we all love, just leaves a sour taste. I was just as confused at the time, but when I watched how Christie provided cover for Fredericks, it made sense. Just how Kebano gets our sympathy, Christie becomes a target for criticism by association of the event. Sad to see, but not surprising as we as fans will have the luxury of the outcome in our favor towards discussion and questioning.

Offline BedsFFC

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2018, 01:29:07 PM »
I think the fans will always have the advantage because the fans can reflect based on the outcome. The coach doesn't have this luxury because they are the ones who actually have to make the decision. That's why it's not an even level playing field in terms of discussion. Fans can't separate their feelings from the decision making of what actually is ongoing on the pitch. Beds explained it perfectly in his remark. If you see the cutscenes of the Slav and his assistants, they were constantly pointing out who needed to get up the pitch, and who was lagging behind. Slav constantly motioned for the team to get up, and I believe it was because our usual high line was falling further and further back due to the pressure of their advancing fullbacks. On the right hand side, Cairney, Kebano and Fredericks could only do so much - and our captain was tiring defensively. By placing Christie in for Kebano, we now have fresh legs to start the attack and use TC as an outlet, and then fresh legs to chase down their advancing full backs, so that Fredericks can tuck in and mark the forwards central.

I already pointed it out in another thread, but Fredericks didn't tuck in and follow Maupay, but instead let him run past - which led to the goal. So for those who believe the sub decision was the reason for the goal - you need to watch the match again.





Fredericks motioned to Christie to communicate staying goal-side so the through ball wouldn't happen to their FB, but he did not follow Maupay's run behind him. Odoi and Ream were left to mark 3 men (Ream actually had 2 at one point), which resulted in the overload. They managed to get our 2 centerbacks out of sorts by overloading one side, which pulled Odoi to not be able to cover Fredericks' back, and Fredericks did not mark anyone, and didn't drop back when the ball was sent in either. That combination of events is why the chance, and goal, occurred.

I'm a big fan of Fredericks, but it's just that simple, he didn't follow his man, or anyone, and it cost us a goal. That's not making a case for the blame game, I think we do way too much of that on here, but it's more so to point exactly to what resulted in a conceded goal from the mere fact of football. Nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of why Kebano, I think that just serves as more fuel to the fire because being subbed as a sub is not a high point in any professional's career. The fact that it happened to Kebano, who we all love, just leaves a sour taste. I was just as confused at the time, but when I watched how Christie provided cover for Fredericks, it made sense. Just how Kebano gets our sympathy, Christie becomes a target for criticism by association of the event. Sad to see, but not surprising as we as fans will have the luxury of the outcome in our favor towards discussion and questioning.

Matt, do you ever go on Cottage Talk? You should. I'd love to hear your thoughts in person. I have a decent understanding of the game as I've coached a fair bit. You clearly are a level ahead of me and it's interesting


Offline Twig

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2018, 01:56:07 PM »
The discussion is all interesting and very well articulated. I just wanted to point out that in my OP i wasn’t questioning SJ’s decision to sub Kebano (that is a different issue), I was however disappointed with his explanation it getwestlondon.  It is a clear implied criticism of Kebano that I was very sorry to read.

Offline HV71

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2018, 01:58:37 PM »
Without wanting to sound sycophantic - I would totally endorse your comments re Matt10 -BedsFFC. His view is always incisive and balanced.

Offline Robbie

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2018, 02:43:22 PM »
I think Kebano keeps misfiring. He is quick and can control the ball but does not track back much or pass the ball enough.

A bit like Stef-Jo, he keeps taking silly shots on goal and not doing the intelligent thing of cutting back and passing. The difference is that Stef-Jo has enough wins (I.e.goal in last match, sweet pass to Mitro in this one).

Offline colinwhite

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2018, 04:23:31 PM »
Fredricks was ball watching for the goal and let his man (who scored) go .

Offline corbs83

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2018, 04:40:15 PM »
I think the fans will always have the advantage because the fans can reflect based on the outcome. The coach doesn't have this luxury because they are the ones who actually have to make the decision. That's why it's not an even level playing field in terms of discussion. Fans can't separate their feelings from the decision making of what actually is ongoing on the pitch. Beds explained it perfectly in his remark. If you see the cutscenes of the Slav and his assistants, they were constantly pointing out who needed to get up the pitch, and who was lagging behind. Slav constantly motioned for the team to get up, and I believe it was because our usual high line was falling further and further back due to the pressure of their advancing fullbacks. On the right hand side, Cairney, Kebano and Fredericks could only do so much - and our captain was tiring defensively. By placing Christie in for Kebano, we now have fresh legs to start the attack and use TC as an outlet, and then fresh legs to chase down their advancing full backs, so that Fredericks can tuck in and mark the forwards central.

I already pointed it out in another thread, but Fredericks didn't tuck in and follow Maupay, but instead let him run past - which led to the goal. So for those who believe the sub decision was the reason for the goal - you need to watch the match again.





Fredericks motioned to Christie to communicate staying goal-side so the through ball wouldn't happen to their FB, but he did not follow Maupay's run behind him. Odoi and Ream were left to mark 3 men (Ream actually had 2 at one point), which resulted in the overload. They managed to get our 2 centerbacks out of sorts by overloading one side, which pulled Odoi to not be able to cover Fredericks' back, and Fredericks did not mark anyone, and didn't drop back when the ball was sent in either. That combination of events is why the chance, and goal, occurred.

I'm a big fan of Fredericks, but it's just that simple, he didn't follow his man, or anyone, and it cost us a goal. That's not making a case for the blame game, I think we do way too much of that on here, but it's more so to point exactly to what resulted in a conceded goal from the mere fact of football. Nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of why Kebano, I think that just serves as more fuel to the fire because being subbed as a sub is not a high point in any professional's career. The fact that it happened to Kebano, who we all love, just leaves a sour taste. I was just as confused at the time, but when I watched how Christie provided cover for Fredericks, it made sense. Just how Kebano gets our sympathy, Christie becomes a target for criticism by association of the event. Sad to see, but not surprising as we as fans will have the luxury of the outcome in our favor towards discussion and questioning.

what a great post! perfect and i totally agree