Author Topic: Kebano substitution  (Read 1279 times)

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  • cebu
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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2018, 05:59:14 PM »
Trying to defend from the back is always far harder than trying to defend from the front

I think that is a massive misconception. When you are knackered with 5 minutes left you don't have the energy to counterattack. it sounds like a good idea but in reality what always happens in those situations, even with the most successful teams, is they get 11 bodies behind the ball just throwing themselves in front of anything heading towards the goals. if it were as simple as you make out no team would ever bring an extra defender on or drop deep at the end of a game

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2018, 06:00:06 PM »
I like Kebano but simple question:  have you ever seen him slide tackle anyone?

answer that and you can see what joka means

although in fairness i've never seen cairney slide tackle anyone either

Offline Milo

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2018, 07:04:01 PM »
I think the fans will always have the advantage because the fans can reflect based on the outcome. The coach doesn't have this luxury because they are the ones who actually have to make the decision. That's why it's not an even level playing field in terms of discussion. Fans can't separate their feelings from the decision making of what actually is ongoing on the pitch. Beds explained it perfectly in his remark. If you see the cutscenes of the Slav and his assistants, they were constantly pointing out who needed to get up the pitch, and who was lagging behind. Slav constantly motioned for the team to get up, and I believe it was because our usual high line was falling further and further back due to the pressure of their advancing fullbacks. On the right hand side, Cairney, Kebano and Fredericks could only do so much - and our captain was tiring defensively. By placing Christie in for Kebano, we now have fresh legs to start the attack and use TC as an outlet, and then fresh legs to chase down their advancing full backs, so that Fredericks can tuck in and mark the forwards central.

I already pointed it out in another thread, but Fredericks didn't tuck in and follow Maupay, but instead let him run past - which led to the goal. So for those who believe the sub decision was the reason for the goal - you need to watch the match again.





Fredericks motioned to Christie to communicate staying goal-side so the through ball wouldn't happen to their FB, but he did not follow Maupay's run behind him. Odoi and Ream were left to mark 3 men (Ream actually had 2 at one point), which resulted in the overload. They managed to get our 2 centerbacks out of sorts by overloading one side, which pulled Odoi to not be able to cover Fredericks' back, and Fredericks did not mark anyone, and didn't drop back when the ball was sent in either. That combination of events is why the chance, and goal, occurred.

I'm a big fan of Fredericks, but it's just that simple, he didn't follow his man, or anyone, and it cost us a goal. That's not making a case for the blame game, I think we do way too much of that on here, but it's more so to point exactly to what resulted in a conceded goal from the mere fact of football. Nothing more, nothing less.

In terms of why Kebano, I think that just serves as more fuel to the fire because being subbed as a sub is not a high point in any professional's career. The fact that it happened to Kebano, who we all love, just leaves a sour taste. I was just as confused at the time, but when I watched how Christie provided cover for Fredericks, it made sense. Just how Kebano gets our sympathy, Christie becomes a target for criticism by association of the event. Sad to see, but not surprising as we as fans will have the luxury of the outcome in our favor towards discussion and questioning.

In my “Analysing the goal” thread I made the same point.

Your summary is however that the substitution didn’t cause the goal, but Fredericks did.

In my thread I suggest that the substitution could have equally led to the positioning confusion and the lack of defined roles. That Fredericks and Christie were not well drilled in this tactical substitution.

So I guess the cause of the goal is either the coaching staff for not having coached this flat back 5 into the players enough... or Freds just for switching off (which we can surely forgive given his performances this season!). We won’t know without knowing what goes on on the training pitch.


Online MJG

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2018, 07:09:21 PM »
Fredericks has always had an issue with mental and physical tiredness since he joined.
He has massivly improved on the physical side but mentally he does switch off.
I sit in H stand in the JH stand so most of the time he is in front of me second half of games. And you can see him losing it in the last 10 minutes of almost everygame. Its just a weakness he has and you have to accept thats the way it is with the lad.

Offline Lighthouse

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2018, 07:18:09 PM »
Trying to defend from the back is always far harder than trying to defend from the front

I think that is a massive misconception. When you are knackered with 5 minutes left you don't have the energy to counterattack. it sounds like a good idea but in reality what always happens in those situations, even with the most successful teams, is they get 11 bodies behind the ball just throwing themselves in front of anything heading towards the goals. if it were as simple as you make out no team would ever bring an extra defender on or drop deep at the end of a game

But that is my point. We didn't put 11 players behind the ball. They looked disorganised with great gaps in the defence. The photos of the equaliser rather shows that. We have three against three in the middle and two out wide marking nobody and one on the wing rushing back. My point is that being disorganised and having no out ball was the reason we lost the goal. At least the out ball gave us a bit more time when Neeskens was on the pitch.

Offline Woolly Mammoth

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 07:19:12 PM »
Fredericks has always had an issue with mental and physical tiredness since he joined.
He has massivly improved on the physical side but mentally he does switch off.
I sit in H stand in the JH stand so most of the time he is in front of me second half of games. And you can see him losing it in the last 10 minutes of almost everygame. Its just a weakness he has and you have to accept thats the way it is with the lad.

Yes, now that you mention it,  I reckon you have explained that about as close as you can get. As you say it’s just the way he is made, and we have to take him as a package.


Offline hovewhite

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2018, 07:32:04 PM »
All this, neeskins didn't make a different option so take him off,n big deal.

Offline Woolly Mammoth

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2018, 07:59:57 PM »
All this, neeskins didn't make a different option so take him off,n big deal.

I am a little confused about the Neeskins Kebano, substitution, and the ongoing debate. Not that it takes much to confuse me.
Was the reason he was taken off, was because he did not follow the managers instructions, or was there another reason that I have overlooked. Because I am a Neeskins fan, and there appears to be an issue between him and Jok which has resulted in him slipping down the pecking order.

Offline Twig

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2018, 08:53:54 PM »
All this, neeskins didn't make a different option so take him off,n big deal.

Disagree completely.  If Kebano isn't a different option to Piazon I don't know what is.


Offline epsomraver

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2018, 10:03:53 PM »
All this, neeskins didn't make a different option so take him off,n big deal.

Disagree completely.  If Kebano isn't a different option to Piazon I don't know what is.
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Offline hovewhite

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2018, 10:46:42 AM »
All this, neeskins didn't make a different option so take him off,n big deal.

Disagree completely.  If Kebano isn't a different option to Piazon I don't know what is.
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He can be a different option and I like kebano and on this game he didn't make an improvement on piazon and as mentioned piazon defensively is a stronger player and also by the way ayite if fit would have been on ahead of kebano as he always offers better options and seems trusted by slav.

Offline colinwhite

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2018, 10:54:05 AM »
Fredricks has no excuse ,he was caught ball watching,and let his man go. He has improved enormously in this department but his lapse cost us on the Day.


Offline Milo

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 11:44:20 AM »
All this, neeskins didn't make a different option so take him off,n big deal.

Disagree completely.  If Kebano isn't a different option to Piazon I don't know what is.
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ed
He can be a different option and I like kebano and on this game he didn't make an improvement on piazon and as mentioned piazon defensively is a stronger player and also by the way ayite if fit would have been on ahead of kebano as he always offers better options and seems trusted by slav.

“He didn’t make an improvement”

Using Slavs broken english phrases is great commitment to the playoff push but does make reading posts a bit tough.  :dft012:

Offline Carborundum

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2018, 01:34:14 PM »
I was OK with Kebano coming on, OK with him coming off to be replaced by a more defensive player.  SJ’s remarks, having publicly hauled him off were unnecessary and ignored one of the basic rules of managing people: praise in public, criticise in private. 

Offline bobbo

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2018, 03:12:51 PM »
Lots on here backing Slav, me too in most cases, but he's human just like us and I'm convinced he made a mistake subbing NK .
I thought so at the time it happened and I was proved right.

On another occasion I could be very wrong though.

As I said he's human.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 03:15:53 PM by bobbo »


Offline FulhamStu

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2018, 06:15:12 PM »
I have just watched the game for the first time on tv and have reflected some of,my thoughts in my post about Cairney.

Slav is a great coach and we all love him for his football and what he has bought to Fulham.  On Saturday I thought Smith out coached him.  Smith played a player wide on each wing, both caused problems all game but also allowed space in the middle defensive for Woods to dominate and spread play.  Our 3 narrow midfield players were thus less influential as the play was stretched.  When we got our intricate short passing going, we looked very good, but this did not happen as much as normal.

Piazon who is also very good at the short intricate passing game did not have his best game again, he has never since we signed him been in my starting 11 and dispite being an excellent club player can be a bit of a weak link.  Kebano substitution was entirely predictable and I thought he did ok, however he was not as good as some people are making out.  We got the goal and then we’re looking to keep another clean sheet.  I thought at that point we allowed the game to become even more open, we should have tried to control the ball more and been more solid at the back.  I thought at the time, the subbing of Kebano for Christie was fine and I understood why Slav did it, I have not changed my mind on that.

The right forward roll is well accepted as being the one that is open for debate with the rest of the team picking itself.  I still go with Ayité as the best option, with probable Kebano replacing him if we need a goal.
I find Ojo frustrating and Piazon just not quite good enough.   Christie as an option when holding a small lead makes sense but are he and Fredericks on the same wavelength like Sess and Targett, probably not !

Offline FFC73

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2018, 06:43:34 PM »
Great thread. Interesting read.

At the time I was surprised but understood the Kebano substitution. The one that i have a problem with that the photo shows is Norwood for Stef Jo.  There is no pressure on the defender that launches the ball into the box. Norwood is to deep. A forward, Fonte or Kamara, would have been more likely to occupy their back line and stop the hoof into our box in the first place

Offline hovewhite

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2018, 06:53:14 PM »
This we can post about for weeks.I am still gutted as it feels like a defeat.It could also mean the playoffs,which is a lottery and we start afresh again in the EFL.
Who will be left?

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2018, 06:55:56 PM »
Great thread. Interesting read.

At the time I was surprised but understood the Kebano substitution. The one that i have a problem with that the photo shows is Norwood for Stef Jo.  There is no pressure on the defender that launches the ball into the box. Norwood is to deep. A forward, Fonte or Kamara, would have been more likely to occupy their back line and stop the hoof into our box in the first place

Johansen was knackered and Norwood usually gets stuck in. I thought it was a good decision at the time. But Norwood looked crap, like he did back in August/September unfortunately. Shame because a few months into the season he had started to look really good IMO. 

Offline Milo

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Re: Kebano substitution
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2018, 07:06:44 PM »
Great thread. Interesting read.

At the time I was surprised but understood the Kebano substitution. The one that i have a problem with that the photo shows is Norwood for Stef Jo.  There is no pressure on the defender that launches the ball into the box. Norwood is to deep. A forward, Fonte or Kamara, would have been more likely to occupy their back line and stop the hoof into our box in the first place

Johansen was knackered and Norwood usually gets stuck in. I thought it was a good decision at the time. But Norwood looked crap, like he did back in August/September unfortunately. Shame because a few months into the season he had started to look really good IMO. 

I suppose we do have to have reduced expectations for Norwood these days given his lack of minutes on the pitch of late.