Author Topic: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign  (Read 1014 times)

Offline NewYorkYank

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Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« on: December 06, 2018, 04:24:44 PM »
I was as surprised as Tony Gale to see Vietto in the starting lineup yesterday (please note the irony; I don’t think Vietto or anyone deserved the Senderos treatment Gale gave him, not even Senderos), but upon reflection, Ranieri’s decision speaks volumes to me.  It says that Ranieri is confident enough to gamble points today in order to preserve Cairney for the long term.  Contrary to many of the naysayers, I share that confidence.

The most critical question after a coaching change during a relegation battle to me is whether the team, post-change, is playing better.  Think back to the initial Hodgson days, where results continued to be bad even though performances most definitely improved.  Defensively, under Ranieri, I think there has been a marked improvement. 

Exhibit A:  Cyrus Christie.  Six weeks ago, I would have been happy if he never set foot on the field again for Fulham.  He was shorn of confidence when playing not only for Fulham but for Ireland.  The past three weeks he has been, at worst, competent, and at best, pretty good. 

Exhibit B:  Calum Chambers.  While I never thought he was as bad as many on this board did, his reinvention has been a revelation.  Defensively, he has been a game changer.  Offensively, he may give the ball away as often as Anguissa, but when he does, it is the result of an overhit ball to the opponent’s end-line rather than a giveaway in Fulham’s own half.  Mawson looks much more solid.  Even Seri, after his early mistake (if it was his), played much better yesterday.

An interesting post at a Fulham site that unfortunately writes only once a year, https://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/, recently noted that, under Roy, the team always knew what to do when it lost possession, in contrast to Jokanovic’s Fulham.  That has clearly been remedied to a large degree.  Leicester rarely troubled Fulham yesterday.  The change has to be down to coaching.

Yes, the offense is not there yet, although Cairney’s introduction made a huge difference.  However, people initially were complaining about how boring Roy’s offense was.  The offense will come.

Were the rest of the league pulling away, the situation might be different.  However the team is only two points from safety.  Call me a Pollyanna, but I feel pretty good about survival.


Offline Southcoastffc

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 04:49:20 PM »
I was as surprised as Tony Gale to see Vietto in the starting lineup yesterday (please note the irony; I don’t think Vietto or anyone deserved the Senderos treatment Gale gave him, not even Senderos), but upon reflection, Ranieri’s decision speaks volumes to me.  It says that Ranieri is confident enough to gamble points today in order to preserve Cairney for the long term.  Contrary to many of the naysayers, I share that confidence.

The most critical question after a coaching change during a relegation battle to me is whether the team, post-change, is playing better.  Think back to the initial Hodgson days, where results continued to be bad even though performances most definitely improved.  Defensively, under Ranieri, I think there has been a marked improvement. 

Exhibit A:  Cyrus Christie.  Six weeks ago, I would have been happy if he never set foot on the field again for Fulham.  He was shorn of confidence when playing not only for Fulham but for Ireland.  The past three weeks he has been, at worst, competent, and at best, pretty good. 

Exhibit B:  Calum Chambers.  While I never thought he was as bad as many on this board did, his reinvention has been a revelation.  Defensively, he has been a game changer.  Offensively, he may give the ball away as often as Anguissa, but when he does, it is the result of an overhit ball to the opponent’s end-line rather than a giveaway in Fulham’s own half.  Mawson looks much more solid.  Even Seri, after his early mistake (if it was his), played much better yesterday.

An interesting post at a Fulham site that unfortunately writes only once a year, https://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/, recently noted that, under Roy, the team always knew what to do when it lost possession, in contrast to Jokanovic’s Fulham.  That has clearly been remedied to a large degree.  Leicester rarely troubled Fulham yesterday.  The change has to be down to coaching.

Yes, the offense is not there yet, although Cairney’s introduction made a huge difference.  However, people initially were complaining about how boring Roy’s offense was.  The offense will come.

Were the rest of the league pulling away, the situation might be different.  However the team is only two points from safety.  Call me a Pollyanna, but I feel pretty good about survival.


Sorry to disagree with one key point of what you say.   A WEAKENED Leicester did indeed trouble us.  5 shots on target and not for nothing has Rico been voted Man of the Match.

Offline NewYorkYank

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 05:17:24 PM »
I was as surprised as Tony Gale to see Vietto in the starting lineup yesterday (please note the irony; I don’t think Vietto or anyone deserved the Senderos treatment Gale gave him, not even Senderos), but upon reflection, Ranieri’s decision speaks volumes to me.  It says that Ranieri is confident enough to gamble points today in order to preserve Cairney for the long term.  Contrary to many of the naysayers, I share that confidence.

The most critical question after a coaching change during a relegation battle to me is whether the team, post-change, is playing better.  Think back to the initial Hodgson days, where results continued to be bad even though performances most definitely improved.  Defensively, under Ranieri, I think there has been a marked improvement. 

Exhibit A:  Cyrus Christie.  Six weeks ago, I would have been happy if he never set foot on the field again for Fulham.  He was shorn of confidence when playing not only for Fulham but for Ireland.  The past three weeks he has been, at worst, competent, and at best, pretty good. 

Exhibit B:  Calum Chambers.  While I never thought he was as bad as many on this board did, his reinvention has been a revelation.  Defensively, he has been a game changer.  Offensively, he may give the ball away as often as Anguissa, but when he does, it is the result of an overhit ball to the opponent’s end-line rather than a giveaway in Fulham’s own half.  Mawson looks much more solid.  Even Seri, after his early mistake (if it was his), played much better yesterday.

An interesting post at a Fulham site that unfortunately writes only once a year, https://cravencottagenewsround.wordpress.com/, recently noted that, under Roy, the team always knew what to do when it lost possession, in contrast to Jokanovic’s Fulham.  That has clearly been remedied to a large degree.  Leicester rarely troubled Fulham yesterday.  The change has to be down to coaching.

Yes, the offense is not there yet, although Cairney’s introduction made a huge difference.  However, people initially were complaining about how boring Roy’s offense was.  The offense will come.

Were the rest of the league pulling away, the situation might be different.  However the team is only two points from safety.  Call me a Pollyanna, but I feel pretty good about survival.


Sorry to disagree with one key point of what you say.   A WEAKENED Leicester did indeed trouble us.  5 shots on target and not for nothing has Rico been voted Man of the Match.

I take your point, but agree to disagree.  Statistics only go so far.  Fulham had 25 shots total, and 7 on net yet, notwithstanding the optimism reflected in my post, I would say that Schmeichel was also rarely troubled.  Further, on a statistical basis, Huddersfield is the only game in which Fulham gave up fewer shots on goal. Maybe age is catching up with me, but apart from the opening minute and the goal, I do not remember Rico working that hard.  I also recognize that Leicester was weakened, but compared to the battering at Cardiff, this inarguably was a huge improvement.


Offline Mitrovic the warrior

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 05:22:52 PM »
Definite progress, can't assume the other sides won't get points though. We must keep progressing and keep working hard.

We also need more goal threats than Mitrovic, Kamara's goal was superbly taken but we won't get things handed on a plate so often. Schurrle needs to return as a more reliable goal threat. Should really try to bring in more pace on the wings in Jan and another right back to compete with Christie. Also another target man to fill in for Mitro if needed.

Offline Southcoastffc

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 06:42:50 PM »
I was at the game and have not yet  watched a replay, but fully expect to see that both teams could well have scored at least 2 more goals. (For us, Cairney's miss when he slipped, AKs wasteful narrow angle blast when he should have passed to Mitro or TC, Odoi's last gasp, Chambers' lovely shot). Rico made at least 3 really good saves.

Offline Statto

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 06:52:01 PM »
Sorry to disagree with one key point of what you say.   A WEAKENED Leicester did indeed trouble us.  5 shots on target and not for nothing has Rico been voted Man of the Match.

Well our starting XI was missing our record signing, our captain, our player of the season and our second highest goalscorer due to fitness issues. So if they were WEAKENED then on paper so were we.


Offline Southcoastffc

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 08:39:28 PM »
Sorry to disagree with one key point of what you say.   A WEAKENED Leicester did indeed trouble us.  5 shots on target and not for nothing has Rico been voted Man of the Match.

Well our starting XI was missing our record signing, our captain, our player of the season and our second highest goalscorer due to fitness issues. So if they were WEAKENED then on paper so were we.
That's somewhat disingenuous. Morgan, Evans and Vardy all started their previous game, Harry Maguire is injured. Cairney started our previous game.  Comparing Leicester's absentees to Zambo, Ream and Schurrle - really?? AND anyway, Schurrle was on the bench last night.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 08:43:28 PM by Southcoastffc »

Offline Denver Fulham

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 09:50:47 PM »
Important point: Ranieri wasn't "resting" Cairney. Rainieri started someone else instead of him because he'd prefer a second attacker closer to Mitro (and, my opinion, because he doesn't think Cairney works hard enough off the ball). Tom's going to have to perform well to keep his starting spot the rest of the way.

Offline Moltobueno

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 06:37:11 AM »
Tom's going to have to perform well to keep his starting spot the rest of the way.

Vietto made it easier for Ranieri and Cairney by his (poor) performance.


Offline alfie

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 08:20:05 AM »
Important point: Ranieri wasn't "resting" Cairney. Rainieri started someone else instead of him because he'd prefer a second attacker closer to Mitro (and, my opinion, because he doesn't think Cairney works hard enough off the ball). Tom's going to have to perform well to keep his starting spot the rest of the way.
Not sure about your opinion, not sure you know what Ranieri was thinking.

Offline toshes mate

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 08:53:19 AM »
I would be much more measured about 'improvements' in that Ranieri's (so far) are nowhere near as subtle as Jokanovic's and are therefore 'impact' measures needed to produce results in the short term as he tries to manoeuvre training, tactics, and formation towards longer term change.  As for the players mentioned, Chambers underwent a truly dramatic change when moved to CDM under Jokanovic, but Christie is the same player I saw in the Championship last season and playing for Ireland in the new European Nations league.  The tinkering in midfield is likewise trying to find options that work in producing cover when the ball is lost as well as goals at the other end.  That is a common problem in football at all levels.  Certainly no two managers have exactly the same philosophy but it takes either a brave man or a fool to see improvements so early on in a manager's stint.  I prefer to see it as Ranieri having a different set of tools in his bag from those that Jokanovic had.  We will never know who has/had the best tools though.   

Offline Sting of the North

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 08:54:49 AM »
Important point: Ranieri wasn't "resting" Cairney. Rainieri started someone else instead of him because he'd prefer a second attacker closer to Mitro (and, my opinion, because he doesn't think Cairney works hard enough off the ball). Tom's going to have to perform well to keep his starting spot the rest of the way.

Well, although you write this as were it a fact, we of course all know that it isn't necessarily so. Unless you have spoken to Ranieri about this of course. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come across as a certainty though.

Personally, I am convinced that you are wrong. Based on the performances under Ranieri (and for that matter under Joka as well), I do not find it likely that Cairney would be dropped unless there were other factors involved. Cairney has worked his socks off lately, so definitely disagree on that as well.

With 3 games in 7 days, a moderate amount of rotation is likely needed. Ranieri likely hoped that taking Cairney out of the team would not have too much of a negative impact, and that it would have the added benefit of being able to rest Cairney some before Saturday. Unfortunately, it looked like he was wrong since Vietto contributed very little, and the introduction of Cairney made a real difference.

I think that Cairney is head and shoulders above most of our players in keeping the ball, and that he would always be part of Ranieri's best team if no other factors were involved. 


Offline Sting of the North

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 09:27:28 AM »
Important point: Ranieri wasn't "resting" Cairney. Rainieri started someone else instead of him because he'd prefer a second attacker closer to Mitro (and, my opinion, because he doesn't think Cairney works hard enough off the ball). Tom's going to have to perform well to keep his starting spot the rest of the way.

Well, although you write this as were it a fact, we of course all know that it isn't necessarily so. Unless you have spoken to Ranieri about this of course. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come across as a certainty though.

Personally, I am convinced that you are wrong. Based on the performances under Ranieri (and for that matter under Joka as well), I do not find it likely that Cairney would be dropped unless there were other factors involved. Cairney has worked his socks off lately, so definitely disagree on that as well.

With 3 games in 7 days, a moderate amount of rotation is likely needed. Ranieri likely hoped that taking Cairney out of the team would not have too much of a negative impact, and that it would have the added benefit of being able to rest Cairney some before Saturday. Unfortunately, it looked like he was wrong since Vietto contributed very little, and the introduction of Cairney made a real difference.

I think that Cairney is head and shoulders above most of our players in keeping the ball, and that he would always be part of Ranieri's best team if no other factors were involved.

I know that I am now quoting myself, but just now saw the notes from the press conference for the Man U game. Based on that transcript, I understand that Ranieri did indeed want a striker closer to Mitro. If the original quote from Denver Fulham was based on this, then I apologize for not acknowledging this. 

Offline Denver Fulham

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 08:39:02 PM »
Important point: Ranieri wasn't "resting" Cairney. Rainieri started someone else instead of him because he'd prefer a second attacker closer to Mitro (and, my opinion, because he doesn't think Cairney works hard enough off the ball). Tom's going to have to perform well to keep his starting spot the rest of the way.

Well, although you write this as were it a fact, we of course all know that it isn't necessarily so. Unless you have spoken to Ranieri about this of course. Perhaps you didn't mean it to come across as a certainty though.

Personally, I am convinced that you are wrong. Based on the performances under Ranieri (and for that matter under Joka as well), I do not find it likely that Cairney would be dropped unless there were other factors involved. Cairney has worked his socks off lately, so definitely disagree on that as well.

With 3 games in 7 days, a moderate amount of rotation is likely needed. Ranieri likely hoped that taking Cairney out of the team would not have too much of a negative impact, and that it would have the added benefit of being able to rest Cairney some before Saturday. Unfortunately, it looked like he was wrong since Vietto contributed very little, and the introduction of Cairney made a real difference.

I think that Cairney is head and shoulders above most of our players in keeping the ball, and that he would always be part of Ranieri's best team if no other factors were involved. 

This isn't my opinion. Ranieri said so after the match. https://www.football.london/fulham-fc/tom-cairney-dropped-luciano-vietto-15515877

He also revealed that the reason why Cairney was dropped was because he felt Vietto would be able to play closer to Mitrovic and create more space for him to score more goals.

"I said yesterday I wanted to give another striker close to Mitrovic to create more space and more chances - he [Vietto] had a good chance to shoot but his shot was unlucky."

I may disagree with that, but that's what the manager said. He's also urged Cairney to shoot more and put in more work off the ball. Could be interpreted as he's trying to push one of his better players. Could be a suggestion that Tom doesn't fit neatly into his preferred methods. Could be both.

(Edit: I see Sting mentioned this above. Wanted to add the full context.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 09:09:56 PM by Denver Fulham »

Offline Whitesideup

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 09:03:15 PM »
Sorry, but I can't agree.

a) Christie has not become a better player overnight. And although ok, I am not going to get too excited about his recent performances.
b) Chambers in midfield (as has been pointed out) was Joka's idea. And he is doing really well so far in that role. It really helps that he can step back and help out the defence when needed.
c) The Liverpool performance was already a good step forward defensively.
d) I thought we played better second half with Tom  rather than Vietto.  So was it a good idea to drop Tom in the first place?

I will only agree in that no one should take their place for granted.


Offline RaySmith

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 09:07:46 PM »
Sorry, but I can't agree.

a) Christie has not become a better player overnight. And although ok, I am not going to get too excited about his recent performances.
b) Chambers in midfield (as has been pointed out) was Joka's idea. And he is doing really well so far in that role. It really helps that he can step back and help out the defence when needed.
c) The Liverpool performance was already a good step forward defensively.
d) I thought we played better second half with Tom  rather than Vietto.  So was it a good idea to drop Tom in the first place?

I will only agree in that no one should take their place for granted.


Apparently it was Scott Parker's idea to play Chambers in midfield, though Slavisa was the manager who first implemented it.

Inspired decision it seems, anyway.

Offline Statto

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Re: Cairney's Starting On the Bench Is A Great Sign
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 09:18:20 PM »
Sorry, but I can't agree.

a) Christie has not become a better player overnight. And although ok, I am not going to get too excited about his recent performances.
b) Chambers in midfield (as has been pointed out) was Joka's idea. And he is doing really well so far in that role. It really helps that he can step back and help out the defence when needed.
c) The Liverpool performance was already a good step forward defensively.
d) I thought we played better second half with Tom  rather than Vietto.  So was it a good idea to drop Tom in the first place?

I will only agree in that no one should take their place for granted.


Apparently it was Scott Parker's idea to play Chambers in midfield, though Slavisa was the manager who first implemented it.

Inspired decision it seems, anyway.

Source of this info?

Please tell me it isn't the Ranieri quote saying Parker told Ranieri, after he was appointed, that Chambers had just played in that position against Liverpool!!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 10:10:58 PM by Statto »