Racism

[Aiten place]

When Darren Bent came back to Craven Cottage a few years back with Darby County I think it was, I can remember a fan shouting some abuse at him which I didn't mind until he's skin colour came into it.

This all happened in the Johnny Haynes stand, I like to think of the average Fulham fan to be a little more educated then the knuckle-dragging fools you see at other clubs so I was disappointed to see this.

[Neutral Zone Ultra]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

[MJG]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.

[Neutral Zone Ultra]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

[_Putney_]

We continuously call the Khan's 'yanks' in derogatory tone - xenophobic.  That is if calling someone from China a 'chink' would be considered xenophobic.

[KJS]

I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.

RN OR PIRATE  :005:

[FFC1987]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

It's always been a football term to call anyone who can't play football a donkey, also carthorse. I've never seen or heard it used in the context above or at least it wasn't loaded as such. Its just a technically poor footballer.....

[RaySmith]

Interesting debate on talksport today which, in summary, spme argued that strong abuse is ok, provided it's not illegal (e.g. racist, sexist, homophobic).  I completely disagree.
  Looking at the Chelsea footage (more graphic than the stills) whatever those guys were saying I am appalled at the hatred they appear to be showing. 

I am interested in his debate about whether any abuse is allowable, because, I, someone who though I  would never use a racist  or homophobic remark, have often  sworn at opposing player eg when they came to take a corner , etc - I remember doing his to Stephen Gerrard at Anfield, calling him a **** when he came over to take a corner. this was to put him off, though it didn't help much since we got hammered.

But   shouting abuse at players - the opposition or even your own- though I don't do this, has always been part of  football since I first started  standing on the terraces in the early 60's, but these days it's become more toxic  because society has become like this.

I don't actually recall any racist abuse from Fulham fans, though I remember Fulham fans chanting 'Chelsea rent boy'    at Gaeme Le Saux at Southampton when he played for them. I would never join in join in with something like that - directed at a player's identity or personal life.

But it's chastening to think that I could be pulled out if I swore vehemently at an opposition player, and feel that to  try and outlaw this is crossing a line. Though I must admit the  current debate has made me think twice about doing this - not through fear of punishment, though I think you have to be aware of that these days, but that maybe it isn't right.

Even racist and homophobic abuse i'm not sure about penalising, because it just drives it under cover, and doesn't stop people holding such attitudes.

Chelsea has always had a racist, far right element , anyway, which we don't have at Fulham thankfully,, and I do think the Fulham crowd has always been self- governing in this.

[flyingfish]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require  creativity.

Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'.  (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.

[MikeTheCubed]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Your implication was that describing Kanté as a "freak" was racist, even though the post was in a positive context. The word "donkey" however is never used in a positive context in the same way that the word "freak" might be.

Had someone said that Kanté was a freak because of his small stature rather than in spite of it, then I'd agree it comes across badly.

[Woolly Mammoth]

I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.

RN OR PIRATE  :005:

Pirate 🏴‍☠️ under the Skull & Crossbones, and I still have my Parrot Cocoa, who I obtained from a Cocoa plantation to prove it.

[FFC1987]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require  creativity.

Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'.  (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.

I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.

[flyingfish]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require  creativity.

Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'.  (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.

I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about Kamara's abilities, but the overarching narrative is that he's strong and powerful and has poor decision making. Whether or not that is true or not in this particular instance doesn't mean it isn't a prevalent and persistent stereotype of young black players and whether or not it is truet might mean that a) they don't get the credit for it when they defy the stereotype, and b) people notice the mistakes more when they are made that support the narrative.

Personally, I don't think AK does get enough credit when he puts in a good performance and he does from time to time display technical ability, as it seems to be put down to an anomaly or despite his other 'well known; deficiencies - see how many people were describing a shot through the legs of the Leicester keeper as jammy.

I don't know, I'm a white male so rarely experience prejudice and so don't know what I'm talking about and the unconscious bias stuff about AK is probably a load of old bull and nothing to do with his race, but more to do with the fact when he first came he was shite and first impressions and all that.   we'd need to ask him.

[MJG]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require  creativity.

Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'.  (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.

I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.

Its such a hard subject to talk about, Dembele and Woodrow, both came about at the same time, but you saw Demeble accused of being raw as well, but I dont recall Woodrow ever being called that. On the other side I heard someone say yesterday that all big black strikers are called beasts. Thats not true as Id describe Mitrovic a beast and think i have done on here.
there is 100% unconscious bias in football, when it become conscious and we see what happened at Chelsea thats when the ugly side of football society comes out.

[FFC1987]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require  creativity.

Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'.  (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.

I'd still call him raw and not see how that's unconscious bias. His attributes are heavily aligned toward athleticism over technical ability with the football. That's just who he is. He's called raw because he's young and his technical ability can be coached. I must be missing your point here.

Its such a hard subject to talk about, Dembele and Woodrow, both came about at the same time, but you saw Demeble accused of being raw as well, but I dont recall Woodrow ever being called that. On the other side I heard someone say yesterday that all big black strikers are called beasts. Thats not true as Id describe Mitrovic a beast and think i have done on here.
there is 100% unconscious bias in football, when it become conscious and we see what happened at Chelsea thats when the ugly side of football society comes out.

I 100% agree that there's unconscious bias in football, sure. I'm a huge fan of Kamara, in my private group, I was calling for his introduction weeks ago. On this occasion, i don't think suggesting he's more of an asset for his athleticism than his ball ability to show his passing range or other technical footballing prowess is unconscious though. I think NFL suffers from this sort of stuff way more than soccer does to be honest. As an FYI, I think Dembele was called raw because he wasn't the finished article and you knew he was goign on to better things. Again, has the potential, just not the finished article. Foden/Sess/Hydman half of our youth has been called that. I do wonder whether soemtiems we get a bit too into the psyche of people when in reality, people are just saying things that are 100% fine and not offensive and we try and link it to some form of offence.

[KJS]

I was once called a White Adonis by a very attractive local lady in a bar in a fishing village off the Skeleton Coast where my ship was anchored when I was in the Navy, I took that as a compliment.

RN OR PIRATE  :005:

Pirate 🏴‍☠️ under the Skull & Crossbones, and I still have my Parrot Cocoa, who I obtained from a Cocoa plantation to prove it.

I sailed under the Skull and Crossbones only mine was in RN Submarine Service  ::pirate::

[Neutral Zone Ultra]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Id have to disagree with the implication made there, believe me in 40 years I have seen many a donkey at Fulham across all races and colours.

Fair enough, I just mean from what I've seen in person and across social media recently.

You say that, but unconscious bias is rife. There is a chapter in the (excellent) Soccernomics book on it, about how the the prevalent belief has long been that black players cannot play in particular positions, are seen as strong and powerful, or are good only in positions where those are required attributes but not believed not to be good in positions that require  creativity.

Comments about Kamara, for instance, seem to follow a trend, with everyone saying the same thing at the same time - - last year I can't remember how many times I read that he's 'raw', now it's that he' lacks a footballing brain'.  (all seemingly unconnected opinions saying the same thing). There are startling parallels to the wider analysis, and I do wonder at times if there is an unconscious bias around it.

You're 100% right, I currently study sports in society at university, and have studied what is known as 'stacking', i.e. players being encouraged to play certain positions because of historical prejudice. It's not a huge problem in association football per se, more a problem in league such as the NFL, where until recently there were very few black quarterbacks, a position which demands high decision making capabilities and cognitive skills, and few kickers, who require precision, whereas positions such as wide receiver and running back which requires high speed and physicality are typically dominated by black players. It's not completely non-existent in football though, how many black goalkeepers can you name off the top of your head?

[Neutral Zone Ultra]

I have, sadly, seen mild cases of it on this board, including a thread titled 'flog the frogs' with regards to players who aren't even French.

French is a race now is it. News to me

Alright then, xenophobia. Whatever it is, it isn't pleasant and has no place on this board or in football.

I would agree with this. On another thread this week it was no more french dwarfs.

Another thing I saw: "Kanté is a freak"

There was nothing racist about that post at all. The context of the author's post was that Kante is an incredible player despite his small stature.

Whether or not it was intended to be offensive or not, it still comes across badly, in the same way that I see a lot of people call Kamara a 'donkey', a term I've only ever seen applied to Romelu Lukaku.

Your implication was that describing Kanté as a "freak" was racist, even though the post was in a positive context. The word "donkey" however is never used in a positive context in the same way that the word "freak" might be.

Had someone said that Kanté was a freak because of his small stature rather than in spite of it, then I'd agree it comes across badly.

Fair enough, but there's something that just doesn't sit right with trying to put a positive spin on the word 'freak', a word that in any other context is insulting and derogatory, instead of using words such as 'hugely talented' or simply 'an excellent player'.

[ToodlesMcToot]

For me, it's easy to see Kamara's talents, yet it seems that not enough of that has been honed into skill. He does quite a lot to earn his criticisms. I also happen to believe that, given time and instruction, he can be a successful PL player for us or somebody. I'm sure there is a racial bias from some as racism is far more prevalent than most recognize but, I've not seen things written about him here that stuck out as being racist. Admittedly, being a white male, I'm sure that some things that seem innocuous to me are more powerful/hurtful to others.