What If----------

[filham]

What if we had started the season with this line up:-

                                                        Betts
                     Odoi               New CB               New CB         Targett

                    Johansen      Cairney            McDonald             Sess

                                                 Kamara        Mitrovic

For good players spending would have been CB ---   20m
                                                                 Targett 20m                 
                                                                 Mitrovic 25m

Essential that the  centre backs were fit and strong and that signings were made early in order to be ready for the start of the season. There would have minimal disruption to the team and money available for further signings in January.

[Nero]

Odoi isn't premiership quality no matter how many people think he wonderful

[Luka]

Odoi, KMac, Johansen and AK are sadly not PL quality.
We would still have been found by a lot of teams.

[Oswhite]

Nearly mirrors my thinking and so pleased to see it suggested, except I believe Odoi is better in the middle.
So I would have been looking for a new RB as well as a new CB(Mawson if fit), and other squad additions to replace the loanees.
Too much change as thought at the time, and poor recruitment with hindsight.

[@jolslover]

We would still be going down

[ffc73]

Were not Chambers and Mawson meant to be the 2x CBs?

Christie was clearly bought in Jan18 as Fred's replacement.  Both he and Bryan have been found to be short of PL quality.  As were McDonald and Johansen

Odoi was just about Championship quality.  We got away with him last season but everyone said he was not good enough for PL.  Yet he has given everything for the cause but is still not good enough.

[Statto]

Mitrovic and several defenders should have been the club's priority.

Mitrovic wasn't time-sensitive because he already knew the English league and our playing style, but the defenders needed be signed in June and given a full pre-season with the rest of the team.

Then if Tony Khan wanted to ponce around with Football Manager signings on deadline day, fine, he could still have brought in Babel, Vietto, Schurrle, Anguissa, Seri et al and they could have been integrated later.

But the core of the team needed to be settled in June and it wasn't - even those saying "Were not Chambers and Mawson meant to be the 2x CBs" will surely acknowledge that signing them in August, with one injured and not fit until September, was always going to cause catastrophic problems.

That we've now signed an injured defender on deadline day in January, just shows that Tony Khan has learned nothing from the mistakes that relegated us.

[toshes mate]

The problem I have with people singling out players as not good enough is that it is the team/squad that has to be adequate as measured against a predetermined target e.g. survival or better.  As compared to what we have got now anything better than nineteenth would still have been better than what we have now.

[Southcoastffc]

The 'not PL quality' argument is an interesting one.  How many of Cardiff's squad, Burnley's, Newcastle's are PL quality?  OK, they may not stay up but right now they are making a better fist of it than we are.  How much does character, unity and fighting spirit count?  How many of our 'non PL quality' players might look a darn sight better if we were properly organised?

[MJG]

Mitrovic and several defenders should have been the club's priority.

Mitrovic wasn't time-sensitive because he already knew the English league and our playing style, but the defenders needed be signed in June and given a full pre-season with the rest of the team.

Then if Tony Khan wanted to ponce around with Football Manager signings on deadline day, fine, he could still have brought in Babel, Vietto, Schurrle, Anguissa, Seri et al and they could have been integrated later.

But the core of the team needed to be settled in June and it wasn't - even those saying "Were not Chambers and Mawson meant to be the 2x CBs" will surely acknowledge that signing them in August, with one injured and not fit until September, was always going to cause catastrophic problems.

That we've now signed an injured defender on deadline day in January, just shows that Tony Khan has learned nothing from the mistakes that relegated us.

Its a bit of catch 22 as well. Just as we know Mawson and Chambers were semminly going to be first choice, we still had Ream, odoi, Marchend come in and many on here and elsewhere have said we should have given last years players a chance...which many have been given.

Personally as I have said from long ago, if Odoi played majority of games we go down. Not a slight on him, just he is not good enough for this level for a team to carry him even with better players around. In hindsight its proberbly clear that any combination of Odoi/Ream/Marchened is not good enough and while Chambers only played maybe 4 or 5 games there I still think him and Mawson should have played more when Slav had a chance to do so.

So we didnt need two CB's we needed 4, but what team goes out in the summer and signs 4 CB's?

[Sting of the North]

I am fairly certain that most of our players could do a decent to good job in a well functioning PL side. Maybe as starters, maybe as squad players, but the "not PL" argument should mostly be directed at our team as a whole (including tactics and team spirit as mentioned above) rather than individuals. We as a team has not shown to be of PL quality. Sure, the players should take their part of the blame, but it is all connected isn't it?

With that said, I am not convinced that the team suggested by the OP would be in a better place than the current one. However, it would have been cheaper if nothing else.

[Statto]

while Chambers only played maybe 4 or 5 games there I still think him and Mawson should have played more when Slav had a chance to do so

I'm sure if they'd been fit and here for pre-season then those two would have started against Palace, and probably been quite effective. But they came available at different stages. Jokanovic didn't have the option of just picking our two best defenders from the start of the season and sticking to that. 

The best CB pairing Jokanovic had available to him changed several times -MLM and Odoi in pre-season, then MLM and Chambers in August, then only in September did it become Mawson and Chambers. If you look back at our line-ups you can see Jokanovic rotated roughly through those combinations up to the Watford game.

Unfortunately in the Watford game Mawson looked absolutely woeful with Chambers, and Jokanovic just lost the plot and started playing Odoi and Ream thereafter. I agree that was a mistake - with hindsight he should have persisted with that pairing - and that was his (and FFC's) undoing IMO because we looked absolutely crap under Jokanovic from then onwards.

[Two Ton Ted]

I agree with the OP regarding the front 6, the sticking point was always going be the back 5 

We needed a premiership quality, English speaking and ready to go for the first game, keeper, full backs and centre halves. We got an injured Mawson and a Chambers signed too late and a not quite good enough Bryan.

Betts, Christie, Bryan, Odoi & Ream are good enough as back ups, but not all together.

We were horrifically under prepared for the Palace game, but that has been the trend for the last 3 seasons, with the dealing done late. We got away with it in the Championship due to the number of extra games played. No chance in the top flight.

[Two Ton Ted]

The 'not PL quality' argument is an interesting one.  How many of Cardiff's squad, Burnley's, Newcastle's are PL quality?  OK, they may not stay up but right now they are making a better fist of it than we are.  How much does character, unity and fighting spirit count?  How many of our 'non PL quality' players might look a darn sight better if we were properly organised?

The difference is concentration and not making defensive howlers, which we have been punished for all season. 

The old line hard work beats ability when ability doesn't work hard springs to mind when talking about Cardiff.

[MJG]

while Chambers only played maybe 4 or 5 games there I still think him and Mawson should have played more when Slav had a chance to do so

I'm sure if they'd been fit and here for pre-season then those two would have started against Palace, and probably been quite effective. But they came available at different stages.

The best CB pairing Jokanovic had available to him changed several times -MLM and Odoi in pre-season, then MLM and Chambers in August, then only in September did it become Mawson and Chambers. If you look back at our line-ups you can see Jokanovic rotated roughly through those combinations up to the Watford game.

Unfortunately in the Watford game Mawson looked absolutely woeful with Chambers, and Jokanovic just lost the plot and started playing Odoi and Ream thereafter. I agree that was a mistake - with hindsight he should have persisted with that pairing - and that was his (and FFC's) undoing IMO because we looked absolutely crap under Jokanovic from then onwards.

I won't mention he even played them on the wrong sides that game.

EDIT: I just checked back and post Watford there were three games where Mawson and Chambers were in the same matchday 18, so he had those chances to play them together in the league.

[Statto]

while Chambers only played maybe 4 or 5 games there I still think him and Mawson should have played more when Slav had a chance to do so

I'm sure if they'd been fit and here for pre-season then those two would have started against Palace, and probably been quite effective. But they came available at different stages.

The best CB pairing Jokanovic had available to him changed several times -MLM and Odoi in pre-season, then MLM and Chambers in August, then only in September did it become Mawson and Chambers. If you look back at our line-ups you can see Jokanovic rotated roughly through those combinations up to the Watford game.

Unfortunately in the Watford game Mawson looked absolutely woeful with Chambers, and Jokanovic just lost the plot and started playing Odoi and Ream thereafter. I agree that was a mistake - with hindsight he should have persisted with that pairing - and that was his (and FFC's) undoing IMO because we looked absolutely crap under Jokanovic from then onwards.

I won't mention he even played them on the wrong sides that game.

EDIT: I just checked back and post Watford there were three games where Mawson and Chambers were in the same matchday 18, so he had those chances to play them together in the league.

This was the chronology FWIW:
- MLM/Odoi/Ream in pre-season
- Chambers started with MLM against Palace and Spurs. Chambers looked woeful so got dropped for Odoi vs Burnley.
- Mawson then got fit and came in for MLM against Brighton and Man City.
- Joka then tried Chambers and Mawson against Watford, they were woeful, so he went with Odoi and Ream thereafter.

To repeat, I accept Joka should take the blame post-Watford. But things like apparently playing Chambers/Mawson on the wrong side against Watford (I was at that game but can't recall the sides) should have happened against the likes of Crawley in July, not Watford in late September.

[toshes mate]

The old line hard work beats ability when ability doesn't work hard springs to mind when talking about Cardiff.

Concur with this 100% when talking about anyone or anything.

[toshes mate]

I'd like to know if Mawson has been really fit at any point during his time at FFC, and if he has been deemed really fit then what we purchased was not the player who played pre-surgery.

[MJG]

while Chambers only played maybe 4 or 5 games there I still think him and Mawson should have played more when Slav had a chance to do so

I'm sure if they'd been fit and here for pre-season then those two would have started against Palace, and probably been quite effective. But they came available at different stages.

The best CB pairing Jokanovic had available to him changed several times -MLM and Odoi in pre-season, then MLM and Chambers in August, then only in September did it become Mawson and Chambers. If you look back at our line-ups you can see Jokanovic rotated roughly through those combinations up to the Watford game.

Unfortunately in the Watford game Mawson looked absolutely woeful with Chambers, and Jokanovic just lost the plot and started playing Odoi and Ream thereafter. I agree that was a mistake - with hindsight he should have persisted with that pairing - and that was his (and FFC's) undoing IMO because we looked absolutely crap under Jokanovic from then onwards.

I won't mention he even played them on the wrong sides that game.

EDIT: I just checked back and post Watford there were three games where Mawson and Chambers were in the same matchday 18, so he had those chances to play them together in the league.

This was the chronology FWIW:
- MLM/Odoi/Ream in pre-season
- Chambers started with MLM against Palace and Spurs. Chambers looked woeful so got dropped for Odoi vs Burnley.
- Mawson then got fit and came in for MLM against Brighton and Man City.
- Joka then tried Chambers and Mawson against Watford, they were woeful, so he went with Odoi and Ream thereafter.

To repeat, I accept Joka should take the blame post-Watford. But things like apparently playing Chambers/Mawson on the wrong side against Watford (I was at that game but can't recall the sides) should have happened against the likes of Crawley in July, not Watford in late September.

I dont disagree
Vs Watford

[itombomb]

Premier league quality is not just about technical ability, it is also about athleticism/stamina (if you're lacking in the former you really need to make up for it in the latter). There's a reason Warnock has been playing a defender at striker so often time, he new he didn't have the quality so improvised with someone who had the physical attributes to do a job, especially away.

Of our team that got promoted, only Fredericks, Targett, Cairney, Sess and Mitrovic were PL starting quality.

People who think Stef Jo or MacDonald were good enough are just wrong.