Anguissa - Worst signing in history?

[The Rational Fan]

Eric Dyer is rated at £36m, but FFC would need to pay £52m+ to get him and frankly he is good but not world class. At those prices Chambers must be worth at least £18m and we'd have to pay at least £26m. You talk like we paid the earth for Anguissa and Seri, but they are both half the price of Eric Dyer.

Transfermarkt rated Anguissa as a £16m midfielder a few months before we bought him and it's hard for FFC to get players at their transfermarkt value. Jokavoic said in August we need cover for McDonald and Anguissa should have been good cover this season and a long term solution in following seasons.

In fact transfermarkt says if FFC wanted a English Defensive Midfield under 28 years old at or below Anguissa price range for Fulham, are best affordable options were Nathaniel Chalobah, Isaac Hayden  Ryan Woods and Kalvin Phillips. Some of which may have played better than Anguissa this season, but not by much and all of them are extremely limited players.

[MJG]

It's brings another point which many overlook as well.
As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller.
Yes a PL team outside the top six can probably buy any player in the world. But the quality required shrinks that group of players. If you want a CDM how many are there you can pick up from the teams available? It's unlikely you would look at championship beyond maybe teams in top six of which three got promoted. Would you look in Scotland beyond Celtic. In Germany/Italy/Spain you could probably look at majority of teams outside the big clubs. But of course every team has a mix of players, some who might not fit the criteria we need.
Looking for a CDM worldwide to join us in the summer.... Maybe 10-20 at a guess?

[Statto]

It's brings another point which many overlook as well.
As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller.
Yes a PL team outside the top six can probably buy any player in the world. But the quality required shrinks that group of players. If you want a CDM how many are there you can pick up from the teams available? It's unlikely you would look at championship beyond maybe teams in top six of which three got promoted. Would you look in Scotland beyond Celtic. In Germany/Italy/Spain you could probably look at majority of teams outside the big clubs. But of course every team has a mix of players, some who might not fit the criteria we need.
Looking for a CDM worldwide to join us in the summer.... Maybe 10-20 at a guess?

Madness. I'd assume the average club has more than one CDM, say 1.5 for the sake of argument (although I reckon even that's low) and how many teams globally have a squad that's better than a good Championship team and at the standard required to finish 17th in the PL - say 80? So that would give you 120 CDMs to choose from.

Let's not forget we clearly weren't looking for an exact match for our tactics - it's been acknowledged that Anguissa was used to playing in a system with two DMs, for example.

[toshes mate]

I believe the notional rule of 'shrinking options as price increases' is present in much of the commercial world, as is seen from the related rule in an auction for a work of art where 'price increases because of rarity of opportunity'.  I also believe current information technology, data sharing, media interest, commercial ventures and sponsorship deals, make it much more difficult to 'keep secrets' and/or 'misdirect interest', but also encourages 'exaggeration or embellishment' of potential rather than actual delivery of the goods.  Hence risk is increased as clubs watch out for each other as they try to accurately assess the  moment when that embellished potential turns to reality and the fastest predatory mover will win the race to dinner.

But what of the players with potential off the radar completely, the late developer, the lazy talent, who suddenly gets lively which must be much harder to find but much easier to keep to yourself if you do find one.  Perhaps the most successful finders of talent are the ones who work the hardest and don't just rely on information technology, data sharing, media interest all or most of the time just to make a name for themselves (and a lot of money perhaps) as being the person who found 'x'.  Just because everything is big business doesn't necessarily mean there are not jewels to be found playing on a piss poor pitch on a Sunday morning.   

[MJG]

It's brings another point which many overlook as well.
As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller.
Yes a PL team outside the top six can probably buy any player in the world. But the quality required shrinks that group of players. If you want a CDM how many are there you can pick up from the teams available? It's unlikely you would look at championship beyond maybe teams in top six of which three got promoted. Would you look in Scotland beyond Celtic. In Germany/Italy/Spain you could probably look at majority of teams outside the big clubs. But of course every team has a mix of players, some who might not fit the criteria we need.
Looking for a CDM worldwide to join us in the summer.... Maybe 10-20 at a guess?

Madness. I'd assume the average club has more than one CDM, say 1.5 for the sake of argument (although I reckon even that's low) and how many teams globally have a squad that's better than a good Championship team and at the standard required to finish 17th in the PL - say 80? So that would give you 120 CDMs to choose from.

Let's not forget we clearly weren't looking for an exact match for our tactics - it's been acknowledged that Anguissa was used to playing in a system with two DMs, for example.

But you are not going to pick up a 'good' CDM from Barcelona are you? Maybe on loan?

if you look at current world club ranking (there are a few around to choose from) Sheff utd are rated 99 in the world (we are currently 131) so lets say that stays there.

You are looking for a CDM to be able to play at PL level. How far down the championship would you go? We went for Bryan as a LB who was pretty much rated in top 3 or 5 of most LB's in the Championship. Has he been shown to be good enough?

So as you take out say the top 30 clubs friom around the worldwhat are you left with 70-100 maybe. You want a CDM that in maybe 70 clubs above you are the first choice in their team if hes going to make a difference. lets say half are not sellers. 35-50 clubs you can do buisness with. Age might come into reducing that, fee might, scounting will take that  down and yes stats.

A PL team of our standing or outside the top 6 because of money can pick up many good players, maybe not the cream but very good. On the flip side you are not going to go hunting in L1 really are you (waits for someone to throw Vardy at me, a random rare find)? So as I say the number reduce. Now I did that post a bit rushed but i was just trying to make a generic piont that the options reduce.

[Statto]

MJG I agree with most of those points, including the point you make about not realistically targeting players from Barcelona etc, but then I don't understand your fundamental point "As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller." A league 2 club is not realistically going to be able to sign players from a "bigger" club like Luton, nor are they going to look at the lower half of the conference, so they have the same sized 'window' of peer clubs and they're going to have all the other issues you mention such as other clubs not wanting to do business. So I don't see why our position is any more difficult than any other club's, at any level in any league.

[The Rational Fan]

It's brings another point which many overlook as well.
As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller.
Yes a PL team outside the top six can probably buy any player in the world. But the quality required shrinks that group of players. If you want a CDM how many are there you can pick up from the teams available? It's unlikely you would look at championship beyond maybe teams in top six of which three got promoted. Would you look in Scotland beyond Celtic. In Germany/Italy/Spain you could probably look at majority of teams outside the big clubs. But of course every team has a mix of players, some who might not fit the criteria we need.
Looking for a CDM worldwide to join us in the summer.... Maybe 10-20 at a guess?

Madness. I'd assume the average club has more than one CDM, say 1.5 for the sake of argument (although I reckon even that's low) and how many teams globally have a squad that's better than a good Championship team and at the standard required to finish 17th in the PL - say 80? So that would give you 120 CDMs to choose from.

Let's not forget we clearly weren't looking for an exact match for our tactics - it's been acknowledged that Anguissa was used to playing in a system with two DMs, for example.

But you are not going to pick up a 'good' CDM from Barcelona are you? Maybe on loan?

if you look at current world club ranking (there are a few around to choose from) Sheff utd are rated 99 in the world (we are currently 131) so lets say that stays there.

You are looking for a CDM to be able to play at PL level. How far down the championship would you go? We went for Bryan as a LB who was pretty much rated in top 3 or 5 of most LB's in the Championship. Has he been shown to be good enough?

So as you take out say the top 30 clubs friom around the worldwhat are you left with 70-100 maybe. You want a CDM that in maybe 70 clubs above you are the first choice in their team if hes going to make a difference. lets say half are not sellers. 35-50 clubs you can do buisness with. Age might come into reducing that, fee might, scounting will take that  down and yes stats.

A PL team of our standing or outside the top 6 because of money can pick up many good players, maybe not the cream but very good. On the flip side you are not going to go hunting in L1 really are you (waits for someone to throw Vardy at me, a random rare find)? So as I say the number reduce. Now I did that post a bit rushed but i was just trying to make a generic piont that the options reduce.

You mentioned Joe Bryan who is not quite upto the standand required for a first XI left back in a team that stays up. FFC could have afforded to spend more, but of the more expensive options theones in the FFC price range were Ashley Young (more money for an older player maybe not wise) and Matt Targett (his club made him expensive). Meaning FFC only real options was someone outside the Premier League and as we had used most of the non-homegrown quota, getting Joe Bryan a homegrown championship left-back may have been FFCs best option. Unfortunately, its just not good enough to stay up.

[MJG]

MJG I agree with most of those points, including the point you make about not realistically targeting players from Barcelona etc, but then I don't understand you're original point "As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller." A league 2 club is not realistically going to be able to sign players from a "bigger" club like Luton, and they're going to have all the other issues you mention such as other clubs not wanting to do business. So I don't see why our position is any more difficult than any other club's, at any level in any league.

The pool of quality who willmake a difference shrinks would you agree with that?

A L1 side could loan a PL player who quality wise should be better than they usually sign.

[The Rational Fan]

MJG I agree with most of those points, including the point you make about not realistically targeting players from Barcelona etc, but then I don't understand you're original point "As a team progresses up the League's the pool of players they realistically can target gets smaller." A league 2 club is not realistically going to be able to sign players from a "bigger" club like Luton, and they're going to have all the other issues you mention such as other clubs not wanting to do business. So I don't see why our position is any more difficult than any other club's, at any level in any league.

The pool of quality who willmake a difference shrinks would you agree with that?

A L1 side could loan a PL player who quality wise should be better than they usually sign.

Well put, because the real question is "Purchased Player Quality for £100m" vs "Available Player Quality Pool for FFC to buy".

With the massive exception of buying "Bargain" Mitrovoic, we nearly all agree that the "Purchased Player Quality" was very ordinary.

But while I agree the "purchased player quality" was poor, I have no evidence that the "available quality" was much better.

Only Kalas, Targett and Norwood to my knowledge were disappointed not to have joined us, but they were all highly priced too.

There is a simple problem these days, the big six have most of the best 150 premier league players, the next 11 that stayed up normally have around 100 premier league quality between them and we all fight over the rest in the transfer market. This outside the top six, FFC was the most active at bring quality into the premier league, but as the league is so strong existing talent is better.

It seems the only real way to crack the premier league is build a squad in the chamionship that can compete defensively in the premier league once promored. Slavisa didn't do this, probably because he was instructed just get us into premier league before parchate payments run out anyway possible. He did his job, but next year we should aim for promotion with a partially premier league ready squad.

[Statto]

The pool of quality who willmake a difference shrinks would you agree with that?

Yes.

But the level of players within your reach expands proportionately.

Again to use a newly-promoted Luton as an example, let's say for the sake of argument that their quality range is from the top 6 of League 1 upwards, but players above the middle of the Championship are probably out of their reach. I don't see how that's any broader than our current range, which is probably the better part of the championship up through the lesser half of the PL.

Actually I think you can make the case that it's easier for us because we can easily target players abroad. Can Luton afford to scout the French second and third tiers? Is data even compiled and made available in those divisions? Can Luton afford to bring a player over from France or Spain on a chopper for a medical? So actually they may be limited to the English leagues and the bands I just mentioned, which suggests to me that the marketplace is likely to be even tighter and more competitive at a lower level than at our current level.

[The Rational Fan]

The pool of quality who willmake a difference shrinks would you agree with that?

Yes.

But the level of players within your reach expands proportionately.

Again to use a newly-promoted Luton as an example, let's say for the sake of argument that their quality range is from the top 6 of League 1 upwards, but players above the middle of the Championship are probably out of their reach. I don't see how that's any broader than our current range, which is probably the better part of the championship up through the lesser half of the PL.

Actually I think you can make the case that it's easier for us because we can easily target players abroad. Can Luton afford to scout the French second and third tiers? Is data even compiled and made available in those divisions? Can Luton afford to bring a player over from France or Spain on a chopper for a medical? So actually they may be limited to the English leagues and the bands I just mentioned, which suggests to me that the marketplace is likely to be even tighter and more competitive at a lower level than at our current level.

I think the talent pool is a valid argument for FFC Top First XI, but there are a few 100 of players worldwide better than our less expensive players such as Kebano, Christie, Odoi, Vietto and Cisse etc. We should have really beefed up the bench and squad there, so if we don't have real quality at least we have real squad depth (FFC squad over 21 year old  was only 22 players from Sep-Dec).

[Bracken White]

Straight away Fotheringham came to mind & surely he must be the worst - from the worst ever Manager.Then there's the legendary Ahmad Elrich, well below the required standard & of course the great Sanchez capture of Shefti Kuqi!!

[Sting of the North]

Straight away Fotheringham came to mind & surely he must be the worst - from the worst ever Manager.Then there's the legendary Ahmad Elrich, well below the required standard & of course the great Sanchez capture of Shefti Kuqi!!

I think you may have forgot to add the financial aspects of those deals to your reasoning. While in my opinion not good acquisitions by any stretch of the imagination, surely neither of those signings had any significant impact on the club's economy short or long term?

[MJG]

Following on from the discussion below i took one of the many football team ranking lists and created this to compare where each of the team in the league compare to each other based on results and other stats.

[SP]

Come on Zambo!

[Nick Bateman]

Anguissa started with his usual 50% application then grew and Cairney moved into a midfield role he is familiar with, so we improved after a while.  Anguissa has ability just lacks work-rate. But he suits Tom Cairney rather than Seri.

And Markovic was worse than Sess.

[fulhamben]

Anguissa started with his usual 50% application then grew and Cairney moved into a midfield role he is familiar with, so we improved after a while.  Anguissa has ability just lacks work-rate. But he suits Tom Cairney rather than Seri.

And Markovic was worse than Sess.

thought he played well tonight.

[ALG01]

He was OK but missed every header. OK is not good enough.

[Milo]

Thought he did quite well connecting play with his passing. Defensively less solid.

[fulhamben]

Thought he did quite well connecting play with his passing. Defensively less solid.

less solid than Seri?