Ali Mac

[Southcoastffc]

So are we creating the narrative that those who work in the scouting/recruiting department just take the months off until January or something? Even then, is there no transcript in which someone in the trust asks the actual question: "Don't you lot find targets before the January transfer window opens"? Surely not, probably because it is a stupid thing to ask, let alone assume.   

Surely we can't be that defiant to our club that we assume this is how it operates. Let's just give the benefit of the doubt that there is much, much, more to the story than we're assuming.

I think AM did a good job in explaining why we didn't get who we wanted, either because the club wanted to perform the deal, but the player did not, or vice versa.

I guess you'd put me in the stupid camp then, Matt10, because I'd have expected AM to say (as a legal representative might have suggested to him to in a more profound setting), that 'We track all our anticipated playing targets continuously for availability, for price, for priority, and for suitability for purpose' gently hinting that the process is not bound by windows at all. 

Of course any answer would still be open to ridicule at a certain level, for example, failure to deliver the potentially suitable and required recruits.  But in the setting, an FST meeting, and the context, lateness of activity, it really is a lame if anticipated response from AM, and if you really cannot see that then I feel sorry for you.  AM's response and your unintended implication either reduces FST meetings to the level of farce or points to the fact that AM should be better prepared facing legitimate questions from our representatives if he chooses to take them as seriously as the meeting warrants. 

I have served on similar panels in my lifetime and I know how tedious they can be and how evasive answers are.   

I'm not putting anyone into a camp. I'm simply stating that if it's such an obvious question, why didn't anyone ask it? Why didn't anyone ask "So...what have your recruiting been doing before window?"

It's a stupid question. It's based on assumptions that are built from a mountain of momentum through the negativity of keyboard warriors.

Feel sorry for me all you want. You want to act like Fulham is your customer service hotline, and they need to say everything exactly to the way you want it, if not - then it's not good enough. Well, go figure, things aren't already going to be good enough because of the position we are in, right?

"My answer is we had players ready to sign, but then changed their mind. Or clubs not reaching back out to us when we're trying to complete a deal. Or we're so low in the table that noone wants to be part of a relegation battle, that also includes a relegation clause."

Customer: "That's not a good enough answer."

"Okay, did you ask the question to hear the answer, or did you ask for me to say what you wanted to hear?"

as someone who has been in these meetings we have asked and reported back on the transfer process a million times. Of course they track all the time, their list updates after every game played and each player updated on scouts reports and stats updates.
These are notes not a transcript and when you have had the same question and discussion again and again over last four or five years it's not going to go into as much depth each time.

At last, a SENSIBLE comment on this thread. Thanks MJG

[ALG01]

It seems to me that whatever is said by who and  to who in these meetings it is unlikely the CEO and owners will be able to be totally transparent in what they say.

Whatever AM  thinks of TK, he cannot say publicly because the man's dad pays his wages. I have been in a very similar situation and you really have to watch your words, especislly iwhen spoken n public.

In the end they can say what they like at these meetings, and our fans  report it brilliantly, but over 5 years our transfer policy has been dreadful especially last summer. If that is not acknowedged by our owner and his team we will continue to decline. I do not accept for a second what AM said at the meeting as reported here about the January window. I believe they had either given up on the season already, or, more likely, failed miserably to strengthen because of inexperience  and lack of competence. The market may have been slow but we were very closely linked with a few available names that might have been just what we needed. If they were serious, we could have got full backs as a minimum.

AM is the CEO, eother his unable to offer good council, or his council is ignored. Whichever it is, I am suprised his position seems to be so secure.

[RaySmith]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

[ALG01]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

Did people say that they were not trying? How do we know whether they tried hard enough or not? I do know our mnanagement certainly gave  all the impression of not trying but that is just observation and which could never be entertained as fact.

What we do know is we failed because they (our management) are not capable of succeeding in transfer policy as has been proved by 11 extremely underwhelming transfer windows emtirely based on flawed thinking and inexperienced people taking the lead. With half a season to go and masses of points to play for, I feel certain that in the whole football playing world, there are two full backs and one decent center half available that arecurrently fit and could have been tempted here with a reasonable amount of money. The consequence of going down and staying down for several seasons swamps the outlay for these three players, as a minimum. AM comment the market is slow, smacks of couldn't care less and just papering over the failings of the transfer team.

We have all seen many years of football, good and bad with Fulham. We all knew the good guys and we also know the ones that are not capable, and that is what we have in our current head of transfers. 

[Fulham1959]

thank you Statto

and thanks from me, too.

[Southcoastffc]

And a useful reminder that anyone can read notes and other useful info at http://fulhamsupporterstrust.com And, of course, can join the FST at only £10 p.a., or £5 for concessions.

[toshes mate]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

Of course just like any other employee AM will hopefully be trying to justify his wages/salary and whatever other benefits he receives from his employment.  But TK is another matter altogether, a situation obscured (for want of a better word) by nepotism.

Players make efforts to play, in a public arena, and all of us have an opportunity to, in our own way, make judgements about them.  Whilst we may all tend to having common longer term memory issues as we get older it is largely short term information influenced by built in prejudices that colours our present understanding of player performance and fitness for purpose.  We seem to know with certainty where the flaws are and yet our analysis may be as different as the numbers of people contributing to it even at single game level (MOTM for example). 

For those in the recruitment arena the points of focus are the windows, the kinds of players we seem to chase, the ones we do not get versus the ones we do get.  Again the reception of a performance is fairly wide and although there may be a stronger performance strength somewhere in the middle (there always is) it is still at the more extreme distributions that truth may be found, especially when taking several windows together.  It is then that doubts about performance may be aroused and when there is no explanation as to 'lessons learned' (part of the FST question) then one can understand the apathy shown by fans because it would be just as readily felt in a football match where the same mistakes are occurring from the same players.

I ask you what the difference is that recruitment should some how be protected from investigation, report, inquiry, and change?  That is what happens to players/coaches/;managers all the time and so why not other employees including owners and their family?

[Sting of the North]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

Did people say that they were not trying? How do we know whether they tried hard enough or not? I do know our mnanagement certainly gave  all the impression of not trying but that is just observation and which could never be entertained as fact.

What we do know is we failed because they (our management) are not capable of succeeding in transfer policy as has been proved by 11 extremely underwhelming transfer windows emtirely based on flawed thinking and inexperienced people taking the lead. With half a season to go and masses of points to play for, I feel certain that in the whole football playing world, there are two full backs and one decent center half available that arecurrently fit and could have been tempted here with a reasonable amount of money. The consequence of going down and staying down for several seasons swamps the outlay for these three players, as a minimum. AM comment the market is slow, smacks of couldn't care less and just papering over the failings of the transfer team.

We have all seen many years of football, good and bad with Fulham. We all knew the good guys and we also know the ones that are not capable, and that is what we have in our current head of transfers.

I think the bolded part is what we do "know" (under the assumption that we agree that the team needed, and tried to acquire, more reinforcements, which is something I believe most of us agree on including those responsible). What you write after that is not something we know however, but instead your speculation as to why we failed. However reasonable and well presented that speculation is, it does not equal fact. Many "failed" transfer windows would indeed indicate that our transfer team is not up to par. However, when you state things like "flawed thinking" it is unclear what you mean. In any case, couldn't it be flawed execution instead of flawed thinking? Or maybe both?

I also don't know why you need to speak for "all", since I believe it is better to leave other people to have their own opinions. I think that you will find that in most cases many on here is not in full agreement on who "the good" and "the bad" are. In the present case, I believe for example that our transfer team did try their best, and worked hard throughout the window. I am increasingly worried however that their best may never really cut it.

[Sting of the North]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

Of course just like any other employee AM will hopefully be trying to justify his wages/salary and whatever other benefits he receives from his employment.  But TK is another matter altogether, a situation obscured (for want of a better word) by nepotism.

Players make efforts to play, in a public arena, and all of us have an opportunity to, in our own way, make judgements about them.  Whilst we may all tend to having common longer term memory issues as we get older it is largely short term information influenced by built in prejudices that colours our present understanding of player performance and fitness for purpose.  We seem to know with certainty where the flaws are and yet our analysis may be as different as the numbers of people contributing to it even at single game level (MOTM for example). 

For those in the recruitment arena the points of focus are the windows, the kinds of players we seem to chase, the ones we do not get versus the ones we do get.  Again the reception of a performance is fairly wide and although there may be a stronger performance strength somewhere in the middle (there always is) it is still at the more extreme distributions that truth may be found, especially when taking several windows together.  It is then that doubts about performance may be aroused and when there is no explanation as to 'lessons learned' (part of the FST question) then one can understand the apathy shown by fans because it would be just as readily felt in a football match where the same mistakes are occurring from the same players.

I ask you what the difference is that recruitment should some how be protected from investigation, report, inquiry, and change?  That is what happens to players/coaches/;managers all the time and so why not other employees including owners and their family?

I think this is a very good post. I also agree that people like TK and AM should be held accountable for their failings. It is not good enough to hide behind arguments that things were outside of the control of the club. I fully believe that they tried, and in many cases I am sure that there was nothing more they could do so I don't think AM is talking BS. But, if that is the case, then you would have to try even harder and keep trying until you succeed. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if it is your "fault" or not since this is a results driven business. Whether or not any reasonable excuses made are sufficient to let you keep your job is then the question of course.

[Statto]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

Of course just like any other employee AM will hopefully be trying to justify his wages/salary and whatever other benefits he receives from his employment.  But TK is another matter altogether, a situation obscured (for want of a better word) by nepotism.

Players make efforts to play, in a public arena, and all of us have an opportunity to, in our own way, make judgements about them.  Whilst we may all tend to having common longer term memory issues as we get older it is largely short term information influenced by built in prejudices that colours our present understanding of player performance and fitness for purpose.  We seem to know with certainty where the flaws are and yet our analysis may be as different as the numbers of people contributing to it even at single game level (MOTM for example). 

For those in the recruitment arena the points of focus are the windows, the kinds of players we seem to chase, the ones we do not get versus the ones we do get.  Again the reception of a performance is fairly wide and although there may be a stronger performance strength somewhere in the middle (there always is) it is still at the more extreme distributions that truth may be found, especially when taking several windows together.  It is then that doubts about performance may be aroused and when there is no explanation as to 'lessons learned' (part of the FST question) then one can understand the apathy shown by fans because it would be just as readily felt in a football match where the same mistakes are occurring from the same players.

I ask you what the difference is that recruitment should some how be protected from investigation, report, inquiry, and change?  That is what happens to players/coaches/;managers all the time and so why not other employees including owners and their family?

I think this is a very good post. I also agree that people like TK and AM should be held accountable for their failings. It is not good enough to hide behind arguments that things were outside of the control of the club. I fully believe that they tried, and in many cases I am sure that there was nothing more they could do so I don't think AM is talking BS. But, if that is the case, then you would have to try even harder and keep trying until you succeed. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if it is your "fault" or not since this is a results driven business. Whether or not any reasonable excuses made are sufficient to let you keep your job is then the question of course.

+1

[Baszab]

It is a statistical fact that 70% of family businesses fail in second generation
Honestly ..... google it - many reports and theses on this

[ALG01]

It is a statistical fact that 70% of family businesses fail in second generation
Honestly ..... google it - many reports and theses on this

Not wanting to be argumentative so soon but that is not quite correct.
They do not necessarilly fail, that implies incompetence of the second generation.
What is true is that 70% do not remain as family businesses for a number of reasons.
One is no apparent succesion. Second, family squable, third business sold, fourth business not viable.
But they do not 'fail' per se.

what the study says is
Some 70 percent of family-owned businesses fail or are sold before the second generation gets a chance to take over, according to a 2012 Harvard Business School study. A big reason for the failure is business divorce, a colloquial term used to describe the separation between owners of a business, which can be just as painful as a regular divorce. This is especially true in case of a family business.
and that is quite a different outlook IMO.

[ALG01]

I fail to understand why AM and TK and everyone involved, wouldn't be doing their utmost to bring in urgently required players in the last window.

I believe AM when he says all efforts were made, but unsuccessful for reasons outside Fulham's control.

Why would he not make such efforts? It's very much in his own interests and TK's, and everyone employed by the club, for the club to stay up.
You don't know what happened, what problems there were in bringing players in.

Did people say that they were not trying? How do we know whether they tried hard enough or not? I do know our mnanagement certainly gave  all the impression of not trying but that is just observation and which could never be entertained as fact.

What we do know is we failed because they (our management) are not capable of succeeding in transfer policy as has been proved by 11 extremely underwhelming transfer windows emtirely based on flawed thinking and inexperienced people taking the lead. With half a season to go and masses of points to play for, I feel certain that in the whole football playing world, there are two full backs and one decent center half available that arecurrently fit and could have been tempted here with a reasonable amount of money. The consequence of going down and staying down for several seasons swamps the outlay for these three players, as a minimum. AM comment the market is slow, smacks of couldn't care less and just papering over the failings of the transfer team.

We have all seen many years of football, good and bad with Fulham. We all knew the good guys and we also know the ones that are not capable, and that is what we have in our current head of transfers.

I think the bolded part is what we do "know" (under the assumption that we agree that the team needed, and tried to acquire, more reinforcements, which is something I believe most of us agree on including those responsible). What you write after that is not something we know however, but instead your speculation as to why we failed. However reasonable and well presented that speculation is, it does not equal fact. Many "failed" transfer windows would indeed indicate that our transfer team is not up to par. However, when you state things like "flawed thinking" it is unclear what you mean. In any case, couldn't it be flawed execution instead of flawed thinking? Or maybe both?

I also don't know why you need to speak for "all", since I believe it is better to leave other people to have their own opinions. I think that you will find that in most cases many on here is not in full agreement on who "the good" and "the bad" are. In the present case, I believe for example that our transfer team did try their best, and worked hard throughout the window. I am increasingly worried however that their best may never really cut it.

I can understand your comments and accept them but I am speaking with a degree of poetic licence. I say all in the same way I say we all Like Italian food. Well obviously in my experience nearly everybody does, but obviously some do not but I am not going to be writing such exactitudes or I will be qualifying every word.

In the end I stick entirely by what I said 11 failed transfer windows (more or less). Insofar as the senior management in the end have to take responsibility for apparently making the same errors time and again I think I know with crystal clarity who is to blame as do we all, or should I say most of us (the vast most of us).

I happen to believe, and I cannot prove it but just instinct, this time they put the minimum effort into it. For a management with such resources at their disposal, the assurances from the owner, and the arrival of Babel and two unfit lesser lights, no full backs, no leader that the manager desparately wanted, I think they have given up on the season and are probably thinking things over.

My impression is, if Wembley is no longer a realistic target and TK is seen to be not competent and so many supporters turning on him, they may well decide to cut their losses. Why spend money or change the very disapointing second manager of the season at vast cost. Now I cannot prove any of that, it is just my speculation and what I think may be going on but I would not be suprised if we are under new ownership sooner rather than later.

If they were serious about our long term future in the Prem, we would have made the necessary signings of that I have no doubt.

[Statto]

I happen to believe, and I cannot prove it but just instinct, this time they put the minimum effort into it. For a management with such resources at their sisposal, the assurances from the owner, and the arrival of babel and two unfit lesser lights, no full backs, no leader that the manager desparately wanted, I think they have given up on the season and are probably thinking things over.

My impression is, if Wembley is no longer a realistic target and TK is seen to be not competent and so many supporters turning on him, they may well decide to cut their losses. Why spend money or change the very disapointing second manager of the season at vast cost. Now I cannot prove any of that, it is just my speculation and what I think may be going on but I would not be suprised if we are under new ownership sooner rather than later.

If they were serious about our long term future in the Prem, we would have made the necessary signings of that I have no doubt.

I share that belief, and yes it's instinct to some extent, but it's also evidenced (albeit nowhere near conclusively proven) by facts, most of which you touch on

[The Rational Fan]

I happen to believe, and I cannot prove it but just instinct, this time they put the minimum effort into it. For a management with such resources at their sisposal, the assurances from the owner, and the arrival of babel and two unfit lesser lights, no full backs, no leader that the manager desparately wanted, I think they have given up on the season and are probably thinking things over.

My impression is, if Wembley is no longer a realistic target and TK is seen to be not competent and so many supporters turning on him, they may well decide to cut their losses. Why spend money or change the very disapointing second manager of the season at vast cost. Now I cannot prove any of that, it is just my speculation and what I think may be going on but I would not be suprised if we are under new ownership sooner rather than later.

If they were serious about our long term future in the Prem, we would have made the necessary signings of that I have no doubt.

I share that belief, and yes it's instinct to some extent, but it's also evidenced (albeit nowhere near conclusively proven) by facts, most of which you touch on

If SK builds the "Riverside Stand" and he invests the FFP maximium of £35 million to rewrite-off recruitment mistakes, then they are committed to Craven Cottage and a long term future in the top half of the Championship most years, then that is better than we would do without "The Khans" (unless you assume we will find another billionaire or never make another transfer mistake or never have another bad season again).

[ALG01]

I happen to believe, and I cannot prove it but just instinct, this time they put the minimum effort into it. For a management with such resources at their sisposal, the assurances from the owner, and the arrival of babel and two unfit lesser lights, no full backs, no leader that the manager desparately wanted, I think they have given up on the season and are probably thinking things over.

My impression is, if Wembley is no longer a realistic target and TK is seen to be not competent and so many supporters turning on him, they may well decide to cut their losses. Why spend money or change the very disapointing second manager of the season at vast cost. Now I cannot prove any of that, it is just my speculation and what I think may be going on but I would not be suprised if we are under new ownership sooner rather than later.

If they were serious about our long term future in the Prem, we would have made the necessary signings of that I have no doubt.

I share that belief, and yes it's instinct to some extent, but it's also evidenced (albeit nowhere near conclusively proven) by facts, most of which you touch on

If SK builds the "Riverside Stand" and he invests the FFP maximium of £35 million to rewrite-off recruitment mistakes, then they are committed to Craven Cottage and a long term future in the top half of the Championship most years, then that is better than we would do without "The Khans" (unless you assume we will find another billionaire or never make another transfer mistake or never have another bad season again).

If is an interesting word  here.
I have speculated that they will not invest substantially again and want to bow out. Building the Riverside Stand may yet happen even if they want to leave for a variety of legitimate business reasons and may even make the club a better prospect for a subsequent buyer. However, I doubt this venture will happen anytime soon.

What might follows them is a real cause for much concern but what I said was this is my instinct as to what will happen, I did not judge whether it would be a good thing or otherwise. My thinking is TK has been shown up for what he is and as a result takes such abuse from the fans that they have decided, 'what do we need it for?' If he just said I he will properly step aside, then I think we would all be happier.