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Credit due where credits deserved

Started by H4usuallysitting, April 15, 2019, 07:54:39 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Mickeyboro


ALG01

Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

snarks

Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

I think you'll find it's not a fiction. It is a normal reaction , the TK villifiers are strongest when we lose or have a run of losses, as simply after we win a game and signings which TK has approved or supported or made the final decision on have played well those that don't think he's solely responsible will break cover to have their say.

It's interesting that you say we are due for a long barren spell again, I don't think say compared to Bolton or Wigan, that 4 years in the Championship and making the playoff's for 2 is a long barren spell. It may be if you're 12 at the time of relegation and 16 at promotion, but for those old enough to remember Division 4 it certainly isn't, and nor is it for anyone over 20.

Also the system that you now decry worked last year, so maybe not a radical re-approach but tweeks certainly. Methodology has certainly changed since CK was sacked by the club as to how we use the stats based approach. I seem to recall we recruited Wolves former head of stats to the recruitment team, so someone with knowledge of English Football has an input.

Also why should TK or Slav or Talbot or the stats man not get credit for Anguissa, he is a good player. I think that is beyond dispute, he hasn't played well for Fulham until the last few games, but there were glimpses earlier in the season just no consistency. He signed a keeper on the recommendation of Slav's goal keeping coach, one with champions league experience, he signed another in Rico with champions league experience. It looks like he listened. He signed Chambers who has played Champions League for Arsenal (albeit on loan) he signed Mawson who everyone expected to be fit sooner. He signed a dutch international in TFM. You now seem to say Mitro was a bad signing, due to his lack of pace, in a 4-3-3 he is the focal point Slav used to great effect the season before.

I go back to what I have said numerous times TK is not entirely to blame for this season, the same way Slav is not entirely responsible for the last.

So rather than clear it up, you have just given your view, which doesn't agree with mine.



Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

Yes that clears it up for me, well explained and realistic.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.

RaySmith

A win always makes a lot of difference to posts on forums and social media, and people will suddenly be more positive. Losing has the opposite effect.

Where are those who called for Slav's sacking in the Championship earlier in the season in which we  got promoted?

Fans are fickle - a cliché, but true.

Woolly Mammoth

It's the feel good factor which hopefully will spread through the dressing room and the training ground since that epic confidence moral boosting win on Saturday v the Toffees.
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.


H4usuallysitting

Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

Still don't really understand.... I've been thinking Anguissa has been a good player & thought Mr T Khan had achieved something

Sting of the North

Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

Since I am not entirely sure that I get the explanation in regards to your original post, may I just ask what is suspicious about those posts? I mean, I get that you have strong feelings about what is wrong within the club, and I get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that you find it hard to believe that there may be many other posters with a different opinion. However it seem to me that you also presented a potential explanation, namely that we had just won a game, which could lead to people more inclined to post on a more positive note. Or do you mean to indicate that those are not "real" posts, but rather some sort of conspiracy. I am genuinely wondering if that is what you are implying, or if there was another reason for those posts to be suspicious?

H4usuallysitting

Quote from: Sting of the North on April 16, 2019, 07:35:45 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

Since I am not entirely sure that I get the explanation in regards to your original post, may I just ask what is suspicious about those posts? I mean, I get that you have strong feelings about what is wrong within the club, and I get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that you find it hard to believe that there may be many other posters with a different opinion. However it seem to me that you also presented a potential explanation, namely that we had just won a game, which could lead to people more inclined to post on a more positive note. Or do you mean to indicate that those are not "real" posts, but rather some sort of conspiracy. I am genuinely wondering if that is what you are implying, or if there was another reason for those posts to be suspicious?

Nope - still don't get it


H4usuallysitting

I could also say the same about Kev Mac, Cairney, Stef Jo, Frederick's, keeping Sess, Mitro, Ayite etc....but as Anguissa is one of the most recent - I thought all season he's a good signing...... I'm not clever enough for any other reason

Statto

#30
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 16, 2019, 07:59:38 PM
I could also say the same about Kev Mac, Cairney, Stef Jo, Frederick's, keeping Sess, Mitro, Ayite etc....but as Anguissa is one of the most recent - I thought all season he's a good signing...... I'm not clever enough for any other reason

But the only two of them signed by TK were Johansen and Ayite. I agree that for £3-4m, they were good signings and TK deserves credit. However that was the same window we spent most of our budget, about £13m, on Kebano, Jozabed and Sigurdsson, so it must be offset against them. And overall, throwing £20m at the transfer market and coming back with a couple of good Championship midfielders isn't particularly special. 

ALG01

Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 16, 2019, 07:53:44 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on April 16, 2019, 07:35:45 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on April 15, 2019, 09:03:52 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 15, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
A couple of decent games does not a good player make. He has been pants most games. Glad for the improvement

Hate the fiction regarding TK starting to suspiciously emerge all within a few hours.

What fiction?.... I don't understand

I will explain with pleasure.

After the watford game there was an obvious outpouring of grief and by and large TK was vilified for his transfers and what that meant. At that time I suggested that I wondered how long it might be before we saw an alternative narrative start to rumbble into life.

Well it started as soon as we beat everton. Suddenly on various forums and FB I noticed that there was an unusual number of posts in support of TK that had been totally missing until then, and most of them are fictitious in that they claim in as many words or rather more subtly, he has not really been such a failure after all.

This post is a case in point. Give TK credit for signing Anguissa...Ok let us suppose that all but the last forur games were an aboration and that Parker knows how to use him properly...OK maybe that is true and even if I am not yet impressed with the signing at least he has had arecently a few half decent games and good luck to him. But what TK has dione wrong is fail to sign a defence, or proper keepers, or a proper forward with pace or a leader on the field, or a genuinely tough central midfielder which were all absolutely necessary for premier league well being.

The posts that have appeared predominatly after the everton game in support of him fail to view the totality of what just happened, not just this but over a minimum of three seasons with a manager screaming that the signings were wrong or non existent. Tk has been the key to our failure this season and to suggest otherwise is no good for our future well being, that is the fiction.

If we do not continue as we are, with surgery to the approach taken by our leadership (not necesarilly in personnel but certainly in methodology), then we are in for a long barren spell again.

Hope that clears it up.

Since I am not entirely sure that I get the explanation in regards to your original post, may I just ask what is suspicious about those posts? I mean, I get that you have strong feelings about what is wrong within the club, and I get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that you find it hard to believe that there may be many other posters with a different opinion. However it seem to me that you also presented a potential explanation, namely that we had just won a game, which could lead to people more inclined to post on a more positive note. Or do you mean to indicate that those are not "real" posts, but rather some sort of conspiracy. I am genuinely wondering if that is what you are implying, or if there was another reason for those posts to be suspicious?

Nope - still don't get it

Ok sorry, I am not sure what else to say except TK does not deserve any credit, his failings have seen us relegated.


The Rational Fan

The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated. I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

Right now, if Tony Khan signed Harry Kane and he played 38 games without scoring. I am sure TK would be accused of not signing a centre forward. The Khans maybe idiots but they are a danger to the Big Six Clubs, and Mike Ashley is smart but aiming to finish 10th-15th every season is not good for fans.

Penfold

Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 16, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated. I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

Right now, if Tony Khan signed Harry Kane and he played 38 games without scoring. I am sure TK would be accused of not signing a centre forward. The Khans maybe idiots but they are a danger to the Big Six Clubs, and Mike Ashley is smart but aiming to finish 10th-15th every season is not good for fans.

A danger to the big six clubs? What brand of Absinth due you drink?

On a humorous level, never touched the stuff. 🍻

ALG01

Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 16, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated. I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

Right now, if Tony Khan signed Harry Kane and he played 38 games without scoring. I am sure TK would be accused of not signing a centre forward. The Khans maybe idiots but they are a danger to the Big Six Clubs, and Mike Ashley is smart but aiming to finish 10th-15th every season is not good for fans.


Your argument is massively flawed as I am sure you must know. TK failed to sign a fit for purpose defence and two keepers that onm first viewing (fabri V celta Vigo was the foiirst time I saw him) it was obvious they were totally unsuited to british style football. Neither knows how to deal with a cross, both looked scared stiff when the ball is launched into a crowded box and that is just a fact. Anybody with an ounce of experience would never have got either of these two. The defence was not entirely fit for purpose ast season and this season it is worse. we signed llighweight midfielders of which we have a plethora and too many second rate loanees, although slav moving chambers to midfield was a masterstoke.

The DoF so called is entirely responsible for that shambles. And given he realised he was in error, and weall make mistakes, he should have attempted to fix it in January and he patently made no worthwhile effort. Nobody believes every signing works out, of course they do not. But failing to get a prem class defence which was most of our expectations was a massive failure. I can only repeat what many of us say, if TK was not his father's son he would have been out ages ago, actually he would never have been allowed anywhere near the position he occupies.

I honestly fail to understand how you continue to put up a defence for such a poor performance. in anby business that fails the leaders lack of capability is almost always the reason for failure. on a given day the players are responsible, but if they are the wrong players or not good enough then it is down to the leader, and the players we have are wrong AND not good enough. I wish i was rich enough to throw away £1,000,000 quite so spectacularly.

If you are correct and TK isn't so bad we will fly back up next season. I am not of that opinion.


Sting of the North

Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 16, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated. I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

Right now, if Tony Khan signed Harry Kane and he played 38 games without scoring. I am sure TK would be accused of not signing a centre forward. The Khans maybe idiots but they are a danger to the Big Six Clubs, and Mike Ashley is smart but aiming to finish 10th-15th every season is not good for fans.

Actually, you would find if you look closely that it is very rare that clubs get relegated as early as we did. There are different grades of failure, but FFC this year has sure been failing in an absolutely monumental manner since we didn't even manage to give ourselves a fighting chance during the last two months of the season. I think that if you look at how many clubs were relegated with 5 games to go, you'll find that it is not common at all and that we then belong to a much smaller percentage.

I think you are wrong on Kane, but I get your point. I don't think the players brought in overall was that bad. However, the timing of the transfers as well as the squad balance is not something that should be applauded at least (not saying that you are). Thing is also, when things go bad, the criticism overall tend to be very unbalanced. When things go as bad as they did this season, many find it difficult to see any reason whatsoever.

Statto

Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 16, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated.

What % of them spent £100m?

Sting of the North

Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 09:24:34 PM
Ok sorry, I am not sure what else to say except TK does not deserve any credit, his failings have seen us relegated.

I disagree. There is no contradiction between giving credit to particular actions while at the same time being critical overall of the combined set of actions. As such, I see no reason why to not give credit if someone does anything well (from a general point of view, since I personally think that the jury is still out on Anguissa). What I do know is that an opinion is not fiction, since it is subjective and simply reflects a person's opinion (correct or not). The opinion may be based on incorrect facts, or illogical assumptions however.


H4usuallysitting

Quote from: Sting of the North on April 16, 2019, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on April 16, 2019, 09:24:34 PM
Ok sorry, I am not sure what else to say except TK does not deserve any credit, his failings have seen us relegated.

I disagree. There is no contradiction between giving credit to particular actions while at the same time being critical overall of the combined set of actions. As such, I see no reason why to not give credit if someone does anything well (from a general point of view, since I personally think that the jury is still out on Anguissa). What I do know is that an opinion is not fiction, since it is subjective and simply reflects a person's opinion (correct or not). The opinion may be based on incorrect facts, or illogical assumptions however.

I don't profess to being logical - just thought Anguissa is a good player.....£30m in football is peanut's....Mr Khan signed him.... honestly I'm not clever...just a football supporter.....sure, Mr Khan has made some strange decisions - and I can't agree with a lot of them

Woolly Mammoth

Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 16, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

The fans who accuse the owners son of not signing a Goalkeeper are 100% correct. What is ridiculous is defending the indefensible.
You state what they have done and achieved in another country, but they could not do it in England in an English League because they are not good enough.
Their performances prove that.
It was yet another two error judgements in Fulhams floored recruitment operation. 
Its not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.  🐘

Never forget your Roots.