Credit due where credits deserved

[The Rational Fan]

The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated.

What % of them spent £100m?

Obviously Zero, so we must compare this years transfer spending to teams that spent a lot upon promotion. Like MAF that spent player inflation adjusted of £205m getting 44 points and two seasons QPR were promoted spent big. Most evidence suggests a 16% coorelation (ie not insignificant but not major either) with transfer spending of the immediate year and points.

The real test therefore will be whether FFC in the future and whether players earn their wages. Importantly, there is 92% correlation (ie massive) with wages and points so next season we will be number one in wages (if Cardiff goes down) and probably number two in wages (if Brighton goes down).

[snarks]

I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

The fans who accuse the owners son of not signing a Goalkeeper are 100% correct. What is ridiculous is defending the indefensible.
You state what they have done and achieved in another country, but they could not do it in England in an English League because they are not good enough.
Their performances prove that.
It was yet another two error judgements in Fulhams floored recruitment operation. 

That's just wrong. "He didn't sign a goalkeeper is 100% correct" when the 2 he did sign aren't good enough. That is some odd logic. You never know until they play in this country. Exactly De Gea had no more of a track record than Rico. So it didn't work it happens but to say he hasn't done something when he has is really a poor argument and is reinforcing your personal narrative not supported by facts

[The Rational Fan]

I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

The fans who accuse the owners son of not signing a Goalkeeper are 100% correct. What is ridiculous is defending the indefensible.
You state what they have done and achieved in another country, but they could not do it in England in an English League because they are not good enough.
Their performances prove that.
It was yet another two error judgements in Fulhams floored recruitment operation. 

That's just wrong. "He didn't sign a goalkeeper is 100% correct" when the 2 he did sign aren't good enough. That is some odd logic. You never know until they play in this country. Exactly De Gea had no more of a track record than Rico. So it didn't work it happens but to say he hasn't done something when he has is really a poor argument and is reinforcing your personal narrative not supported by facts

Sergio Rico and Fabri are not Goalkeepers according to you. Please define what is signing a goalkeeper? If Rico and Fabro are not goalkeepers, then is Betts, Rodak or Pickford?

Using this logic Mitrovoic wasn't a Centre Forward at Newcastle. I would note Leeds are vaguely rumoured to be interested in signing Fabri for the premier league next season. If Fabri plays as a premier league first choice goalkeeper next season and makes the PFA PL team of the year is he a goalkeeper?

[toshes mate]

I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

The fans who accuse the owners son of not signing a Goalkeeper are 100% correct. What is ridiculous is defending the indefensible.
You state what they have done and achieved in another country, but they could not do it in England in an English League because they are not good enough.
Their performances prove that.
It was yet another two error judgements in Fulhams floored recruitment operation. 

That's just wrong. "He didn't sign a goalkeeper is 100% correct" when the 2 he did sign aren't good enough. That is some odd logic. You never know until they play in this country. Exactly De Gea had no more of a track record than Rico. So it didn't work it happens but to say he hasn't done something when he has is really a poor argument and is reinforcing your personal narrative not supported by facts

But your corollary is equally flawed because all a club has to do is to sign a particular type of player, regardless of merit, potential, fitness for purpose, and that is it.  Who could possibly need anyone other than a 'TK type' to do any of the business then?

And the argument about 'in this country' is just as equally empty of base logic.  In the professional game the goals are the same size wherever you play; the game is the same game wherever you play; the rules are the same rules wherever you play.  For sure the language may take a little time to pick up, but other than that, what is the problem for a professional sportsperson? 

The whole business of trading players is to find a better fit for what you believe you need and for a goalkeeper that means less goals being scored against you.  Fitting goalkeepers in should actually be easier than any other position.

[Mitch]

The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated.

What % of them spent £100m?

...and who built a playoff team, rather than an automatic one? Despite going for broke in terms of expenditure, as it was the last year of parachute money.

If he's going to claim it was to be expected as we were playoff winners, then he should look at himself for not making an automatic promotion team.

[Mitch]

And the argument about 'in this country' is just as equally empty of base logic.  In the professional game the goals are the same size wherever you play; the game is the same game wherever you play; the rules are the same rules wherever you play.  For sure the language may take a little time to pick up, but other than that, what is the problem for a professional sportsperson? 

That's not true. Different countries, leagues, competitions see different styles of play. Some can be very different to others - someone used the example of Veron being fantastic in Italy where he had time on the ball, as the game is generally played at a slower pace, but at United he failed. Similarly, if Fulham didn't go up and a Premier League team signed KMac, they would have discovered the same thing - he is better suited to a slightly slower pace of the Championship. Joe Hart didn't suit Pep's requirements to be able to use the ball at his feet, so wasn't therefore suited to Pep's team (or anyone else's anymore it seems), whereas Ederson suits perfectly. Recruitment needs to consider how a player will fit into a league, country, team and tactics when signing from other leagues, and judge whether the players have the attributes and mental ability to adjust.

[toshes mate]

And the argument about 'in this country' is just as equally empty of base logic.  In the professional game the goals are the same size wherever you play; the game is the same game wherever you play; the rules are the same rules wherever you play.  For sure the language may take a little time to pick up, but other than that, what is the problem for a professional sportsperson? 

That's not true. Different countries, leagues, competitions see different styles of play. Some can be very different to others - someone used the example of Veron being fantastic in Italy where he had time on the ball, as the game is generally played at a slower pace, but at United he failed. Similarly, if Fulham didn't go up and a Premier League team signed KMac, they would have discovered the same thing - he is better suited to a slightly slower pace of the Championship. Joe Hart didn't suit Pep's requirements to be able to use the ball at his feet, so wasn't therefore suited to Pep's team (or anyone else's anymore it seems), whereas Ederson suits perfectly. Recruitment needs to consider how a player will fit into a league, country, team and tactics when signing from other leagues, and judge whether the players have the attributes and mental ability to adjust.

It is true in the context I presented it, just as it is true in the context you present it.  I never mentioned equal standards of ability because they are a given wherever you play in context of wherever you play.  Please take context into consideration because it is highly important to all language.

[Statto]

The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated.

What % of them spent £100m?

...and who built a playoff team, rather than an automatic one? Despite going for broke in terms of expenditure, as it was the last year of parachute money.

If he's going to claim it was to be expected as we were playoff winners, then he should look at himself for not making an automatic promotion team.

Yes good point.
I must say I find myself agreeing with all your posts this last week or so

[ALG01]

Ok sorry, I am not sure what else to say except TK does not deserve any credit, his failings have seen us relegated.

I disagree. There is no contradiction between giving credit to particular actions while at the same time being critical overall of the combined set of actions. As such, I see no reason why to not give credit if someone does anything well (from a general point of view, since I personally think that the jury is still out on Anguissa). What I do know is that an opinion is not fiction, since it is subjective and simply reflects a person's opinion (correct or not). The opinion may be based on incorrect facts, or illogical assumptions however.

I don't profess to being logical - just thought Anguissa is a good player.....£30m in football is peanut's....Mr Khan signed him.... honestly I'm not clever...just a football supporter.....sure, Mr Khan has made some strange decisions - and I can't agree with a lot of them

In all honesty, yes i think what you have said is reasonable and I am certainly overreacting to everything at the moment because I still have an open wound that is hurting.
I see the man in question as totally responsibe so do not give him credit for anything. Maybe anguissa will turn out to be a star buy (not yet sure but recent form is encouraging under Parker) but failing to get a defence of the right quality and the two goalkeepers was and remains unforgiveable. A child would have known what was required.

My other beef at the moment is that up to the Everton game almost nobody had a good word for TK. Post a single win against a poor Everton the social media has quite an interesting number of people rushing to TKs defence.

I understand your point of view and hope the player in question really comes good for us next season.

[snarks]

I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

The fans who accuse the owners son of not signing a Goalkeeper are 100% correct. What is ridiculous is defending the indefensible.
You state what they have done and achieved in another country, but they could not do it in England in an English League because they are not good enough.
Their performances prove that.
It was yet another two error judgements in Fulhams floored recruitment operation. 

That's just wrong. "He didn't sign a goalkeeper is 100% correct" when the 2 he did sign aren't good enough. That is some odd logic. You never know until they play in this country. Exactly De Gea had no more of a track record than Rico. So it didn't work it happens but to say he hasn't done something when he has is really a poor argument and is reinforcing your personal narrative not supported by facts

Sergio Rico and Fabri are not Goalkeepers according to you. Please define what is signing a goalkeeper? If Rico and Fabro are not goalkeepers, then is Betts, Rodak or Pickford?

Using this logic Mitrovoic wasn't a Centre Forward at Newcastle. I would note Leeds are vaguely rumoured to be interested in signing Fabri for the premier league next season. If Fabri plays as a premier league first choice goalkeeper next season and makes the PFA PL team of the year is he a goalkeeper?

I think I was saying they are goalkeeprs, woolley wasn't. At least that's what I meant to say, but it was 6.30 I'd just got in and my brain was a little "fuzzy"

[The Rational Fan]

The Khans performance is no different to 63% of teams that win the playoff place, we got relegated.

What % of them spent £100m?

...and who built a playoff team, rather than an automatic one? Despite going for broke in terms of expenditure, as it was the last year of parachute money.

If he's going to claim it was to be expected as we were playoff winners, then he should look at himself for not making an automatic promotion team.

I agree, it is partly Tony Khan's fault that we didn't get automatic promotion, but he did get us a playoff place that releases massive amounts of parchate payments.

There is no question that Wolves and Cardiff have made better decisions than Fulham, but that doesn't make him hopeless just not as good as his competitors.

[Mitch]

But that isn't his point Rational. His point suggests that due to the way we went up, that this season then met expectations, or that relegation wasn't unlikely, based on that. Feels like strange reasoning when it was the recruitment team and DoF who built a playoff team rather than a Wolves style automatic one.

FWIW it's my opinion going up via the playoffs is great, if not the preferred - it's better than not at all. When you add the potential £ investment the owner was then willing to make in the t/fer market, the fact we came up in that way and the likelihood of relegation because  of that should and could have been nullified.

That would have happened had the recruitment team and DoF have built a sustainable team not reliant on loans and then invested wisely with the treasure chest they were given.

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[The Rational Fan]

But that isn't his point Rational. His point suggests that due to the way we went up, that this season then met expectations, or that relegation wasn't unlikely, based on that. Feels like strange reasoning when it was the recruitment team and DoF who built a playoff team rather than a Wolves style automatic one.

FWIW it's my opinion going up via the playoffs is great, if not the preferred - it's better than not at all. When you add the potential £ investment the owner was then willing to make in the t/fer market, the fact we came up in that way and the likelihood of relegation because  of that should and could have been nullified.

That would have happened had the recruitment team and DoF have built a sustainable team not reliant on loans and then invested wisely with the treasure chest they were given.

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This season was partly ruined by too many loan signing leaving and by requiring new signings to players in the early part of the season. None of that matters now, what matters is setting us up next season to be better than Wolves 17/18 and not making the same mistakes.

Next Season, we will have less loans than before and if we get promoted we should be able to start the season with existing players rather than needing to use new signings. We will be on paper one of the best teams on paper to ever play in the championship, it will be hard with such bad teamwork this season to be automatic promoted but pre-season has started super early so we should improve.

[Mitch]

Yes, Rational, but all of that said - his point regards playoff winners statistically being likely to go down is an irrelevance, and by using it,  it shows a pattern of our part-time DoF not taking responsibility for he and his teams errors. So whilst I agree it is time to look forward, it is definitely pertinent to discuss these issues, as they show us what we can expect going forwards and how our club and those who run it judge results of others work and their own.

I won't make predictions about next year and how well or not we are set up to do until we know exactly who is and isn't staying. A lot of time for agents to work their fingers into our squad. I do hope, based on what he said to the FST, that TK won't take the same route with loans.

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[Woolly Mammoth]

I notice fans are accusing Tony Khan of not signing a keeper, accusations in this area couldn't be any more ridicous. We signed one keeper that was 2x Europa League Finalist that has played for Spain and another that had played Champions League and two times Turkish Siper Lig keeper of the year.

The fans who accuse the owners son of not signing a Goalkeeper are 100% correct. What is ridiculous is defending the indefensible.
You state what they have done and achieved in another country, but they could not do it in England in an English League because they are not good enough.
Their performances prove that.
It was yet another two error judgements in Fulhams floored recruitment operation. 

That's just wrong. "He didn't sign a goalkeeper is 100% correct" when the 2 he did sign aren't good enough. That is some odd logic. You never know until they play in this country. Exactly De Gea had no more of a track record than Rico. So it didn't work it happens but to say he hasn't done something when he has is really a poor argument and is reinforcing your personal narrative not supported by facts

Sergio Rico and Fabri are not Goalkeepers according to you. Please define what is signing a goalkeeper? If Rico and Fabro are not goalkeepers, then is Betts, Rodak or Pickford?

Using this logic Mitrovoic wasn't a Centre Forward at Newcastle. I would note Leeds are vaguely rumoured to be interested in signing Fabri for the premier league next season. If Fabri plays as a premier league first choice goalkeeper next season and makes the PFA PL team of the year is he a goalkeeper?

According to you it's All ifs and buts, what if this what if that, I did not know Leeds were already in the Premier.
The point you seem to have missed, and the point I was trying to make, is that no matter what he/they may have achieved elsewhere. They/he have not kept goal very well this season, and not by just the amount of goals that have been conceded, but the individual errors and mistakes, the mediocrity and lack of basics in keeping goal, but also the decision making with punching poorly as opposed to catching a simple cross, and don't get me on communication.

[The Rational Fan]

Yes, Rational, but all of that said - his point regards playoff winners statistically being likely to go down is an irrelevance, and by using it,  it shows a pattern of our part-time DoF not taking responsibility for he and his teams errors. So whilst I agree it is time to look forward, it is definitely pertinent to discuss these issues, as they show us what we can expect going forwards and how our club and those who run it judge results of others work and their own.

I won't make predictions about next year and how well or not we are set up to do until we know exactly who is and isn't staying. A lot of time for agents to work their fingers into our squad. I do hope, based on what he said to the FST, that TK won't take the same route with loans.

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Last time we went down only three players had two years left on their contracts during the relegation season.

This time we have 15 players with two years on their contract (3xGKs Fabri, Betts, Rodak, 6xDFs Christie, S.Sessegnon, Mawson, Ream, MLM, Bryan, 5xMFs Cisse, McDonald, Anguissa, Seri, Cairney, 2xFWs Kamara and Mitro) 

In addition, we have 9 players with one year contracts available to Fulham including 2xDF Fossey, Odoi, 2xMF Edun, Johasen, 5xFW R.Sessegnon, Torres, Atyie, Kebano and Fonte. In an Ideal world we would add to the squad Sabaly, Kalas, Piazon, Markovoic and Babel in exchange for Sessegnon.

[Mitch]

Rational, that all sounds good, but I just don't want to predict anything or pin my hopes on anything just yet. It's better than last time we went down (And so it should be - we have to learn lessons from that mess), on the face of it, but I'm too long in the tooth to get carried away just yet. None of that is criticism of anyone - it's just too early to say.

But as I said, the question was about credit. My point was regards TK's comments about likelihood of relegation, not as to how well equipped we are now it has happened.

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[The Rational Fan]

Rational, that all sounds good, but I just don't want to predict anything or pin my hopes on anything just yet. It's better than last time we went down (And so it should be - we have to learn lessons from that mess), on the face of it, but I'm too long in the tooth to get carried away just yet. None of that is criticism of anyone - it's just too early to say.

But as I said, the question was about credit. My point was regards TK's comments about likelihood of relegation, not as to how well equipped we are now it has happened.

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If the comments worry you, remember sons of american billionaire tend to have foot in mouth disease a lot. Fred Trump son is a better example of a billionaire sons that keeps saying the wrong thing, and his son has about the same experience in his current job as Tony Khan.

[Sting of the North]

Rational, that all sounds good, but I just don't want to predict anything or pin my hopes on anything just yet. It's better than last time we went down (And so it should be - we have to learn lessons from that mess), on the face of it, but I'm too long in the tooth to get carried away just yet. None of that is criticism of anyone - it's just too early to say.

But as I said, the question was about credit. My point was regards TK's comments about likelihood of relegation, not as to how well equipped we are now it has happened.

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This is a very sensible comment. If rumors are true about relegation clauses reducing wages etc. it indicates that they may have learnt something from last time around, and in a sense that should receive some credit. However, the fact that we may be decently equipped to have a good shout of promotion next year doesn't cover the fact that the most important goal of the season (staying in the PL) was not even close to being achieved. I would be very surprised if that was not the main goal with our acquisitions. If we had given it a decent try, it could at least be argued that it was not all bad since it was always going to be somewhat difficult (or at least not very easy) to achieve that goal given the amount of new players needed. However, we didn't give if a decent try for whatever reason. For that management deserves a fair amount of criticism, since whatever you perceive to be the reasons for our failure management has the most responsibility. If the coaches and players are deemed not good enough, than that is ultimately the responsibility of those in charge.

However, I agree that the acquisitions can not solely be judged by how the players have performed since it is all connected. One bad thing tend to lead to another, and I find it difficult to say with certainty that we never stood a chance with the squad we had.   

[The Rational Fan]

If rumors are true about relegation clauses reducing wages etc. it indicates that they may have learnt something from last time around, and in a sense that should receive some credit. However, the fact that we may be decently equipped to have a good shout of promotion next year doesn't cover the fact that the most important goal of the season (staying in the PL) was not even close to being achieved. I would be very surprised if that was not the main goal with our acquisitions.

While loan signings job is to keep us up, permanent signing are to ensure we are in the premier league by the end of our contract. Granted get relegated wasn't the plan, but given only 7 teams haven't been relegated in the last eight years. Tony Khans plan should involve a relegation at some point and coming back up must be a plan. TK relegation clauses if true proves he has planed to bounce like WBA did three times a decade ago. Mitrovoic, Anguiisaa and Bryan are great signings to get back up.

When Shahid Khan took over he said he thought FFC could do things better, and it seems part of that was longer term view on signings. Tottenham are talking about signing both Sessegnons and neither might start next season, but are still excellent buys at the right price.

If the news about the relegation clauses are correct, we are not in just a good position next season but also the season after to get promoted. I doubt we can keep Ryan Sessegnon, but if can reinvest all his transfer fee into the team wow. Our team against Everton is better than any in the Championship, and I think Fabri/Betts, Christie/Odoi, McDonald/ Johasen/Seri can cover the players lost not in the forward line. For me, the biggest issues next season are the forward line and their backups.