The myth of our “top quality set of players”

[Statto]

I dread to think how badly we'd do in the Premier, if by some fluke we'd get promotion again. 

It may sound outrageous but I assume stepping up to a new division with a windfall of £100m, we might buy a few new players

[Statto]

Do people genuinely think if we had a manager as talented as Nuno Santo that this team would thrive in the premiership like Wolves did?

Nuno would get this team promoted. And then if we spent £200m like Wolves have since they were promoted, yes, we'd probably thrive in the PL.

[The Rational Fan]

I dread to think how badly we'd do in the Premier, if by some fluke we'd get promotion again. 

It may sound outrageous but I assume stepping up to a new division with a windfall of £100m, we might buy a few new players

No matter what the performance on the field, fans can always blame Tony Khan for buying crap players whether its Fabri, Seri, Anguissa, Reid, Knockaert or Arter. All I observe is most of these players weren't crap shortly before joining Fulham and they weren't injured either. Last season, we blamed getting oversea players, this year we blame getting poor domestic players. I wonder what is going on once they arrive at Motspur Park. Tony Khan wasn't buying terrible player last year, but we blamed him and he improved although recruitment was never the number one problem. We had a better team last year than Huddersfield or Cardiff, should have been neck and neck with Brighton.

[Statto]

Would any of the named four get back into their parent/former teams for games this weekend?

To repeat, roughly 18 months ago Bryan was statistically the best LB in the Championship and Mawson was in the England squad. So they'd get into the Bristol and Swansea teams without a doubt. Asking whether Cavaleiro would get into a top 6 PL side in the context of a debate about whether he's a good Championship player is a bit silly with all due respect. But him and Knockaert would walk into any team in this division.   

[@jolslover]

First post is wrong, our squad is very good and proven at this level as well.

[ScalleysDad]

Would any of the named four get back into their parent/former teams for games this weekend?

To repeat, roughly 18 months ago Bryan was statistically the best LB in the Championship and Mawson was in the England squad. So they'd get into the Bristol and Swansea teams without a doubt. Asking whether Cavaleiro would get into a top 6 PL side in the context of a debate about whether he's a good Championship player is a bit silly with all due respect. But him and Knockaert would walk into any team in this division.

Eighteen months ago. Eighteen months ago Kmac was a rock and Ream went on to become Player of the Season. Back to the question ........ On current form and this weekend?

[aaronmcguigan]

Both Cavaleiro and Knockaert tore this league up with different clubs. Bryan was one of our better (not saying much) players in the Premier League last season. Suddenly their quality is a myth? Or is it that our manager is just bad? I'm betting heavily on the latter ... and continuing to play Onomah (even with all the injuries) is another indication of that problem.

Cav ,Knockaert, Bryan, Mawson, StefJo, Odoi, Ream, Kamara, Onomah


All of these players without exception were great 2-3 years ago
All of these players without exception were pretty terrible last season with whatever team in whatever division
All of these players have been proven to be not good enough for the premier league, where we are trying to go.


-What's the motivation for any of these players to improve considering they will probably be replaced in May anyway given the Khans record?
-All of these players were poor last season and surely their confidence and form has taken a hit. Where is our record as a club or as our current management team, for being able to either improve players or reinvigorate them?

[Statto]

Would any of the named four get back into their parent/former teams for games this weekend?

To repeat, roughly 18 months ago Bryan was statistically the best LB in the Championship and Mawson was in the England squad. So they'd get into the Bristol and Swansea teams without a doubt. Asking whether Cavaleiro would get into a top 6 PL side in the context of a debate about whether he's a good Championship player is a bit silly with all due respect. But him and Knockaert would walk into any team in this division.

Eighteen months ago. Eighteen months ago Kmac was a rock and Ream went on to become Player of the Season. Back to the question ........ On current form and this weekend?

None of the five players mentioned by the OP are at an age where they're likely to get worse over a period of 18 months, unlike Ream and McDonald, who are in their early 30s, so yet again, a really silly comparison.

But even comparing them for the sake of argument, I've seen no evidence to suggest Ream and Mawson aren't as good as they were 18 months ago. Ream was always weak and slow but made up for it with good positional sense and was composed in possession. Should have won "most improved player" in 2018 but was never player of the year. Doesn't look any worse now than he did then. McDonald ditto - has been solid in the brief moments Parker has played him instead of f***ing Onomah.   

[FFC1987]

Players aren't performing who have performed at this stage before, some, the best at this level and we find ourselves blaming players. Either, they are just bad and had massively over achieving seasons, or, they are demotivated to play at the standard expected of them. Players drop in form sure, but we have a squad to deal with that which is also full of talented players.

So in summation, the players aren't really the issue, its the manager. Its not a coincidence that these players aren't performing and have done previously. if you bring in Benitez, Hodgson or Santo, they would get way more out of these players and we wouldn't be 10 points plus, away from automatic. Simple stuff really.

[Spirit of 2000]

Players aren't performing who have performed at this stage before, some, the best at this level and we find ourselves blaming players. Either, they are just bad and had massively over achieving seasons, or, they are demotivated to play at the standard expected of them. Players drop in form sure, but we have a squad to deal with that which is also full of talented players.

So in summation, the players aren't really the issue, its the manager. Its not a coincidence that these players aren't performing and have done previously. if you bring in Benitez, Hodgson or Santo, they would get way more out of these players and we wouldn't be 10 points plus, away from automatic. Simple stuff really.

THIS.

Ok the squad isn't premier league standard overall but it has enough genuine quality to be top 3 in this league - we are ... but unlikely to stay there long. Parker is failing to get the potential from the players at his disposal & in addition the style we play is often dull as ditch water, so no compensation there. People though Sheff Utd didn't A) Have the quality to get promoted, B) Be good enough to stay up once promoted. Shows what a good manager is able to achieve.

[bobbo]

Who is scouting for Brentford , Leeds , Notts forest. Etc etc all of whom have a few exciting youngsters. Our money would be better spent on whoever is proving to be an excellent scout rather than say, the15 million we spent on mawson ( caught playing statues ) last night.

[Sting of the North]

Players aren't performing who have performed at this stage before, some, the best at this level and we find ourselves blaming players. Either, they are just bad and had massively over achieving seasons, or, they are demotivated to play at the standard expected of them. Players drop in form sure, but we have a squad to deal with that which is also full of talented players.

So in summation, the players aren't really the issue, its the manager. Its not a coincidence that these players aren't performing and have done previously. if you bring in Benitez, Hodgson or Santo, they would get way more out of these players and we wouldn't be 10 points plus, away from automatic. Simple stuff really.

To think that the solution for alleged poor performances by individual players and/or teams is "simple stuff" is in my opinion far from true, and reflective of a binary mindset that is not applicable in the real world. There is almost never just a single explanation for why a player performs well or not, let alone why a team that is made up out of 11 individual players is not performing as expected.

Everything effects everything else. Bad tactical decisions or team selections by a manager may have a negative effect on team performance, which will have a negative effect on morale and confidence on players to a lesser or larger degree. The loss in morale or confidence of individual players may lead to more negative performances that doesn't necessarily reflects the decisions made by the manager. A lucky bounce or penalty decision may have the opposite effect, even though everything else was exactly the same. Decisions by the manager, talent available, confidence, team coherence and partnerships, luck, injuries, chance, the weather, the quality of the opposition on the day. It all comes together to produce the results we are seeing.

This doesn't mean that SP is not to blame, but it means that it is not a given that another manager (even a very respected and experienced one like Benitez) will have the solution to the current particular problems with the team and with the individual players. It will always be a gamble to some degree, just like it was a gamble to appoint SP and just like it is a passive gamble to keep him in charge.

If it happens, it may very well turn out that appointing a new manager will be the solution to a specific problem (at least for the time being). It may also turn out to become even worse.

What it is not is "simple stuff". In my opinion.

[FFC1987]

Players aren't performing who have performed at this stage before, some, the best at this level and we find ourselves blaming players. Either, they are just bad and had massively over achieving seasons, or, they are demotivated to play at the standard expected of them. Players drop in form sure, but we have a squad to deal with that which is also full of talented players.

So in summation, the players aren't really the issue, its the manager. Its not a coincidence that these players aren't performing and have done previously. if you bring in Benitez, Hodgson or Santo, they would get way more out of these players and we wouldn't be 10 points plus, away from automatic. Simple stuff really.

To think that the solution for alleged poor performances by individual players and/or teams is "simple stuff" is in my opinion far from true, and reflective of a binary mindset that is not applicable in the real world. There is almost never just a single explanation for why a player performs well or not, let alone why a team that is made up out of 11 individual players is not performing as expected.

Everything effects everything else. Bad tactical decisions or team selections by a manager may have a negative effect on team performance, which will have a negative effect on morale and confidence on players to a lesser or larger degree. The loss in morale or confidence of individual players may lead to more negative performances that doesn't necessarily reflects the decisions made by the manager. A lucky bounce or penalty decision may have the opposite effect, even though everything else was exactly the same. Decisions by the manager, talent available, confidence, team coherence and partnerships, luck, injuries, chance, the weather, the quality of the opposition on the day. It all comes together to produce the results we are seeing.

This doesn't mean that SP is not to blame, but it means that it is not a given that another manager (even a very respected and experienced one like Benitez) will have the solution to the current particular problems with the team and with the individual players. It will always be a gamble to some degree, just like it was a gamble to appoint SP and just like it is a passive gamble to keep him in charge.

If it happens, it may very well turn out that appointing a new manager will be the solution to a specific problem (at least for the time being). It may also turn out to become even worse.

What it is not is "simple stuff". In my opinion.

I'll respond with another 'simple stuff' What you've described comes under the job description of a manager. Motivating players, getting them to perform to top levels. Handling a squad to keep morale high and results coming. We can talk about varying factors until we're blue in the face but it all stems down to the manager, hence why they're absolutely vital in a successful team. What a manager does, isn't simple, but asking him to do what you've described is literally his job, hence why pointing at the manager for the pit falls is simple.

[Sting of the North]

Players aren't performing who have performed at this stage before, some, the best at this level and we find ourselves blaming players. Either, they are just bad and had massively over achieving seasons, or, they are demotivated to play at the standard expected of them. Players drop in form sure, but we have a squad to deal with that which is also full of talented players.

So in summation, the players aren't really the issue, its the manager. Its not a coincidence that these players aren't performing and have done previously. if you bring in Benitez, Hodgson or Santo, they would get way more out of these players and we wouldn't be 10 points plus, away from automatic. Simple stuff really.

To think that the solution for alleged poor performances by individual players and/or teams is "simple stuff" is in my opinion far from true, and reflective of a binary mindset that is not applicable in the real world. There is almost never just a single explanation for why a player performs well or not, let alone why a team that is made up out of 11 individual players is not performing as expected.

Everything effects everything else. Bad tactical decisions or team selections by a manager may have a negative effect on team performance, which will have a negative effect on morale and confidence on players to a lesser or larger degree. The loss in morale or confidence of individual players may lead to more negative performances that doesn't necessarily reflects the decisions made by the manager. A lucky bounce or penalty decision may have the opposite effect, even though everything else was exactly the same. Decisions by the manager, talent available, confidence, team coherence and partnerships, luck, injuries, chance, the weather, the quality of the opposition on the day. It all comes together to produce the results we are seeing.

This doesn't mean that SP is not to blame, but it means that it is not a given that another manager (even a very respected and experienced one like Benitez) will have the solution to the current particular problems with the team and with the individual players. It will always be a gamble to some degree, just like it was a gamble to appoint SP and just like it is a passive gamble to keep him in charge.

If it happens, it may very well turn out that appointing a new manager will be the solution to a specific problem (at least for the time being). It may also turn out to become even worse.

What it is not is "simple stuff". In my opinion.

I'll respond with another 'simple stuff' What you've described comes under the job description of a manager. Motivating players, getting them to perform to top levels. Handling a squad to keep morale high and results coming. We can talk about varying factors until we're blue in the face but it all stems down to the manager, hence why they're absolutely vital in a successful team. What a manager does, isn't simple, but asking him to do what you've described is literally his job, hence why pointing at the manager for the pit falls is simple.

I understand you like "simple stuff" answers. I don't. Also, nothing of what you wrote contradicts or even really addresses a single word in my previous post. You are free to keep thinking it is simple, but I respectfully disagree 100 %.

[FFC1987]

Players aren't performing who have performed at this stage before, some, the best at this level and we find ourselves blaming players. Either, they are just bad and had massively over achieving seasons, or, they are demotivated to play at the standard expected of them. Players drop in form sure, but we have a squad to deal with that which is also full of talented players.

So in summation, the players aren't really the issue, its the manager. Its not a coincidence that these players aren't performing and have done previously. if you bring in Benitez, Hodgson or Santo, they would get way more out of these players and we wouldn't be 10 points plus, away from automatic. Simple stuff really.

To think that the solution for alleged poor performances by individual players and/or teams is "simple stuff" is in my opinion far from true, and reflective of a binary mindset that is not applicable in the real world. There is almost never just a single explanation for why a player performs well or not, let alone why a team that is made up out of 11 individual players is not performing as expected.

Everything effects everything else. Bad tactical decisions or team selections by a manager may have a negative effect on team performance, which will have a negative effect on morale and confidence on players to a lesser or larger degree. The loss in morale or confidence of individual players may lead to more negative performances that doesn't necessarily reflects the decisions made by the manager. A lucky bounce or penalty decision may have the opposite effect, even though everything else was exactly the same. Decisions by the manager, talent available, confidence, team coherence and partnerships, luck, injuries, chance, the weather, the quality of the opposition on the day. It all comes together to produce the results we are seeing.

This doesn't mean that SP is not to blame, but it means that it is not a given that another manager (even a very respected and experienced one like Benitez) will have the solution to the current particular problems with the team and with the individual players. It will always be a gamble to some degree, just like it was a gamble to appoint SP and just like it is a passive gamble to keep him in charge.

If it happens, it may very well turn out that appointing a new manager will be the solution to a specific problem (at least for the time being). It may also turn out to become even worse.

What it is not is "simple stuff". In my opinion.

I'll respond with another 'simple stuff' What you've described comes under the job description of a manager. Motivating players, getting them to perform to top levels. Handling a squad to keep morale high and results coming. We can talk about varying factors until we're blue in the face but it all stems down to the manager, hence why they're absolutely vital in a successful team. What a manager does, isn't simple, but asking him to do what you've described is literally his job, hence why pointing at the manager for the pit falls is simple.

I understand you like "simple stuff" answers. I don't. Also, nothing of what you wrote contradicts or even really addresses a single word in my previous post. You are free to keep thinking it is simple, but I respectfully disagree 100 %.

I'm not sure how you're struggling with this concept. All the notes you made, ie what can affect players and make them play badly, is a managers job to overcome. So, its the managers job, his literal job specification, to limit the impact of said pitfalls on players to maintain positive results. Hence why it's 'simple'. Its a hard job with lots on non binary outcomes, but its still his job to get the positives out wherever possible, which Scotty isn't doing.

I firmly answered your post, it just seems your choice to empathise with the blight of a manager and say its difficult rather than appreciate, its literally a managers job to overcome the mitigating circumstances you presented regardless of difficulty.

My simple comment is literally, managers face challenges, its their job to create positives out of said challenges and not just blame players for poor performances especially when Parkers inability to manage and get positive results is clear to see.

Hope that clears it up for you.

[ScalleysDad]

Would any of the named four get back into their parent/former teams for games this weekend?

To repeat, roughly 18 months ago Bryan was statistically the best LB in the Championship and Mawson was in the England squad. So they'd get into the Bristol and Swansea teams without a doubt. Asking whether Cavaleiro would get into a top 6 PL side in the context of a debate about whether he's a good Championship player is a bit silly with all due respect. But him and Knockaert would walk into any team in this division.

Eighteen months ago. Eighteen months ago Kmac was a rock and Ream went on to become Player of the Season. Back to the question ........ On current form and this weekend?

None of the five players mentioned by the OP are at an age where they're likely to get worse over a period of 18 months, unlike Ream and McDonald, who are in their early 30s, so yet again, a really silly comparison.

But even comparing them for the sake of argument, I've seen no evidence to suggest Ream and Mawson aren't as good as they were 18 months ago. Ream was always weak and slow but made up for it with good positional sense and was composed in possession. Should have won "most improved player" in 2018 but was never player of the year. Doesn't look any worse now than he did then. McDonald ditto - has been solid in the brief moments Parker has played him instead of f***ing Onomah.

Not trying to pick a fight but did'nt Ream absolutely romp the Player of the year award 2018 with our top scorer , Sess, quite a distance behind him. I would suggest he would struggle for many votes this time round and thus my point that key elements of this squad are not as good as we remember or would like to think.

[Artful Dodger]

To me, it is Parkers tactics that are wrong. We are too open and concede too many goals, particularly from crosses as we play 3 up front with 1 behind which means the 2 other midfielders are quite narrow and that allows space for the opposition to get down the wings. Bryan doesn't want to be a defender, so isn't actually that good at defending, which means we concede goals from crosses from both wings.

I believe the players are good enough at this level to be in the top 2 (that doesn't mean good enough for the Prem) but we need to go back to 4-4-2, or a variant of, and tighten up across the midfield and let 2 good attackers plus a good attacking midfielder score the goals. Bryan is still good enough to contribute in a 4-4-2 but his lack of defending won't be as exposed. If we persist with 4-2-1-3 which is almost what we play, we will continue to concede and have to score 3 to win and it won't happen every week.

[General]

You've mentioned 5 players there, and in the last 2-3 years, at least three of them have been arguably the best player in the Championship in their position over the course of a season, and one has been in the England squad.

The fifth one admittedly is poor but is there purely because Parker chooses to play him instead of a better option.

No one is basing their views on these players on how much we paid for them - it's based on how good they were IN THIS DIVISION for other clubs.
 

+1

Plus we didn't actually pay much for any of them - Knockaert, Reid and Cavaleiro are all loans as things stand and are loan fees. They are emotional and passion driven players though so unless their support base and environment is supportive of them in the right ways there's a chance they'll blow hot and cold.

All of those players mentioned also were not being given game time in premiership clubs - there's a difference in quality and you can't compare them not being wanted by premiership clubs to being no good at championship level. That's been disproven on a number of occasions.

[Sting of the North]

I'm not sure how you're struggling with this concept. All the notes you made, ie what can affect players and make them play badly, is a managers job to overcome. So, its the managers job, his literal job specification, to limit the impact of said pitfalls on players to maintain positive results. Hence why it's 'simple'. Its a hard job with lots on non binary outcomes, but its still his job to get the positives out wherever possible, which Scotty isn't doing.

I firmly answered your post, it just seems your choice to empathise with the blight of a manager and say its difficult rather than appreciate, its literally a managers job to overcome the mitigating circumstances you presented regardless of difficulty.

My simple comment is literally, managers face challenges, its their job to create positives out of said challenges and not just blame players for poor performances especially when Parkers inability to manage and get positive results is clear to see.

Hope that clears it up for you.

It didn't clear anything up because I understood already where you are coming from, which is the beauty of "simple" viewpoints. I just don't agree with your overly simplified assessment. That is fine, we don't have to agree. 

I didn't chose to empathize with the blight of a manager, that is something you chose to assume from my post. I pointed out that there are a multitude of factors behind every result, some of which are more down to the manager than others. It is not always the solution to sack a manager when things are not going our way. First off because there is never a guarantee that the new manager will be more successful.

Furthermore, nowhere have I even suggested that it is not Parker's responsibility to sort out our problems. It is also however the players responsibility, and upper managements responsibility. Ultimately it usually comes down to a change of manager if the results keep going the wrong way, partly because that is easier than to change all or some of the players.

The problem with your line of reasoning is that you seem to believe that it is as simple as saying that the manager should take all the blame. That means that the players and the rest of the management would be blameless, which in my book is borderline absurd.

[Statto]

I would suggest he would struggle for many votes this time round and thus my point that key elements of this squad are not as good as we remember or would like to think.

...or it could be that the rest of the squad has got much better such that he's no longer one of the best players
...or (as I said) that he won the award in 17/18 due to the contrast against his generally poor performance the previous two seasons
...or it just reflects the general, inevitable fluctuations in fans' opinions and players' form (Cairney won it in 16/17 - are you suggesting he then became a worse player because he hasn't won it since?)
...or even, if he has got worse, it reflects the natural decline of footballers' ability in the 30s which (again, as I said) doesn't apply to Bryan, Mawson, Cavaleiro or Knockaert who are aged 25-28