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Scapegoats

Started by Peabody, January 23, 2020, 07:38:07 PM

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Statto

Quote from: snarks on January 24, 2020, 12:20:20 PM
I'm always sceptical about this as it is just an arbitrary transfer value on each player, apparently Kongolo is worth £10 million yet couldn't get in to Huddersfield's team.

Also depending on whose ratings you read stoke are either 2nd or 3rd and Huddersfield are in the top 5. It's a statistical analysis that means very little. Certainly it shouldn't be used as a metric of performance.

Well there are two explanations for that.

One is that TRF's analysis is all wrong and there's little or no correlation between (a) players' values on Transfermarkt (or wherever) and (b) how good they are

The other explaination is that Stoke and Huddersfield are just terribly run clubs, and they've overpaid for players, they aren't motivating those players, the coach is setting them up wrong tactically, etc.

I'm strongly inclined to prefer the latter explanation

toshes mate

Cannot see what is wrong with complaining or even what is wrong with complaining about complaining.

People who follow football are an odd bunch.  Some love one club and know little about the game at one extreme and at the other extreme there is someone who loves football but has that special feeling for one club.  In older times the one club was most often local to you but that isn't true now.   In older times there was little media to influence opinion and it was almost always down to pecking order e.g. if your team is so good how come they're in the second division etc.

Some people just criticise for the sake of it.  Doesn't mean you have to read it or feel something about it.  You have a brain more than capable of making up its own mind and perhaps it needs some exercise.

Jamie88

The problem as I see it, is that there is a big difference between criticising a players performance and calling them scapegoats.

When a large number of us were criticising Onomah's initial performances, for example, we are judging his performance based on what he does on the pitch. Now it is all opinions and whatnot, but when the majority of people believe he has had a bad game, that is based on what we have witnessed him do on the pitch, obviously.
When you call a player a scapegoat, you are inferring that everyone - who has their own brain and can think for themselves - are blaming a certain player when it is unwarranted and that they have actually been average or better. This to me is clearly nonsense, who does this?

When players are criticised, they are criticised because in the spectators' eyes, they have played pony. Not because they are looking for someone to blame.


snarks

Quote from: Statto on January 24, 2020, 12:42:19 PM
Quote from: snarks on January 24, 2020, 12:20:20 PM
I'm always sceptical about this as it is just an arbitrary transfer value on each player, apparently Kongolo is worth £10 million yet couldn't get in to Huddersfield's team.

Also depending on whose ratings you read stoke are either 2nd or 3rd and Huddersfield are in the top 5. It's a statistical analysis that means very little. Certainly it shouldn't be used as a metric of performance.

Well there are two explanations for that.

One is that TRF's analysis is all wrong and there's little or no correlation between (a) players' values on Transfermarkt (or wherever) and (b) how good they are

The other explaination is that Stoke and Huddersfield are just terribly run clubs, and they've overpaid for players, they aren't motivating those players, the coach is setting them up wrong tactically, etc.

I'm strongly inclined to prefer the latter explanation

As well you may, but then that supports the contention that it doesn't mean much. If they have overpaid for a player then that is not his value. It's the value that club puts on him, but not the one he's worth. TC is valued at 13.5 million on transfer market, yet we bought him for 3 million. So is he overvalued? Or undervalued? It's such an arbitrary figure.

SuffolkWhite

I blame you for this thread Peabody  064.gif..... :Get Coat gif:
Guy goes into the doctor's.
"Doc, I've got a cricket ball stuck up my backside
"How's that?"
"Don't you start"

colinwhite

Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 24, 2020, 12:34:35 PM
If a six year old kid coached Liverpool with the same squad they have next season, they will still cone third. If you have the best squad in the league coming third is poor performance. I don't blame Parker for the 30 goal conceeded he has a decent but not great backline, as for the 42 goals scored with Mitro contributing 18 that is underperformance they should be scoring at least 29 non Mitro goals with those players in 29 games.
Sorry but that couldnt be farther from the truth. Klopps team did nothing in their first 2years and the fans were split .Now he is vital. To think that anyone can coach that team because the players are so good is a joke,sorry.( Maybe it was meant as ajoke )


grandad

Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 24, 2020, 12:34:35 PM
If a six year old kid coached Liverpool with the same squad they have next season, they will still cone third. If you have the best squad in the league coming third is poor performance. I don't blame Parker for the 30 goal conceeded he has a decent but not great backline, as for the 42 goals scored with Mitro contributing 18 that is underperformance they should be scoring at least 29 non Mitro goals with those players in 29 games.

I don't care who scores our goals. I would be just as happy if our back 4 scored 25 goals each or Mitro to score 100.
Where there's a will there's a wife

St Eve

Quote from: SuffolkWhite on January 24, 2020, 03:35:52 PM
I blame you for this thread Peabody  064.gif..... :Get Coat gif:
And Senderos

alfie

 
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 23, 2020, 10:52:09 PM
I find it hard to understand why Fulham and our players and our manager currently in third place, get so much criticism from its own supporters. Everything every error, miss or goals conceded are dissected so harshly, I find it hard to comprehend. It is not as though we have a Trophy Cabinet the size of Real Madrid's. That I could understand as the fans are use to success.
But the last time they opened up Fulhams Trophy Cabinet a pile of Tumbleweed blew out.
:plus one:
Story of my life
"I was looking back to see if she was looking back to see if i was looking back at her"
Sadly she wasn't


YankeeJim

Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 10:57:09 PM
I see I am the the scapegoat.

What you are doing, in any other walk of life is trying to isolate me and bully me with your nasty digs above. I am bery unimpressed and think the mods should step in and reprimand you all! An overly poisenous poster that has had a season ticket for around 60 years been to virtually every big game including all the relegations, what a horrible way to be treated by so called supporters.

I have expressed my honest view and do not expect to be discussed elsewhere.

PS Ivan is massively underachieving. he works hard, true, I cannot fault him for that. he seems to be a very nice man that is committed to the cause, i cannot fault him, but he is wasteful with his talent and has precious little end product.

Don't feel sorry for yourself. You are, truth be told, somewhat of a negative person. That's fine. You often make excellent points but seldom in a positive vein. For a sainted ( :022:) man like Peabody to take note, is, in itself, an indictment. Please continue you comments as you see fit but please don't be negative towards others.
Its not that I could and others couldn't.
Its that I did and others didn't.

AnOldBrownie

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 23, 2020, 10:52:09 PM
I find it hard to understand why Fulham and our players and our manager currently in third place, get so much criticism from its own supporters. Everything every error, miss or goals conceded are dissected so harshly, I find it hard to comprehend. It is not as though we have a Trophy Cabinet the size of Real Madrid's. That I could understand as the fans are use to success.
But the last time they opened up Fulhams Trophy Cabinet a pile of Tumbleweed blew out.

:plus one: 082.gif



FFC1987

I'm not sure this should need to be said as I thought it would be obvious, but Fulham in the EPL, are a small fish in a big pond whereas in the championship, we're the 'Real Madrid' of the league. A serious contender. So of course expectations will be higher in championship than EPL. I could understand your point if we were being overly ambitious in our expectations if we were in Prem but come on. We're considered the top 4 of the prem in the championship.


ALG01

Quote from: YankeeJim on January 24, 2020, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 10:57:09 PM
I see I am the the scapegoat.

What you are doing, in any other walk of life is trying to isolate me and bully me with your nasty digs above. I am bery unimpressed and think the mods should step in and reprimand you all! An overly poisenous poster that has had a season ticket for around 60 years been to virtually every big game including all the relegations, what a horrible way to be treated by so called supporters.

I have expressed my honest view and do not expect to be discussed elsewhere.

PS Ivan is massively underachieving. he works hard, true, I cannot fault him for that. he seems to be a very nice man that is committed to the cause, i cannot fault him, but he is wasteful with his talent and has precious little end product.

Don't feel sorry for yourself. You are, truth be told, somewhat of a negative person. That's fine. You often make excellent points but seldom in a positive vein. For a sainted ( :022:) man like Peabody to take note, is, in itself, an indictment. Please continue you comments as you see fit but please don't be negative towards others.

Thanbk you for your response but what was being said started to get unpleasant for no other reason there is a very nasty few keyboard warriors on here that think they can insult who they like rather than engage in a sensible discussion. They really are taking all the fun out of trying to discuss football properly and it was rich to have a go at me after all the hours, days and years I have supported the club with blind loyalty at every game. but on here I say what i see and unfortunately most people forget my massive optimistic nature and the players I big up when they do well especially the ones who turn things round from a poor start.

and I do not attempt to belittle or ridiule anyone as was begining to happen.

I am very positive, i am probabl;y one of the few that actually sees no reason with the right selection and right tactics and right comitment that we cannot get a result on sunday or at least give a brilliant account of ourselves.

What I usually write here is a frustration at underachievement, such as with Cav who clearerly is very talented but seems to be untouchable where the manager is concerned because he is not doing it at the moment in terms of end product. his work ethic is brilliant and he clearly wants to do well but he needs a period on the bench as Knock had. I never critisesd Knock at all, I thought he was genuinely being singled out unfairly but he has come back even better.

If you watch what I say more carefully, you will see I am very positive. However regarding the ownership and his son, that is different. we need professionnals running the club and having an amateur as director of football is genuinely holding back the progress we should have made. Their hearts are in the right place but MAF had the right idea and they should learn from that.

Jims Dentist

Take heart ALG.
I mostly find myself agreeing with your posts and also feel that Cav is not being best used.

Peabody

Quote from: ALG01 on January 24, 2020, 11:06:06 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on January 24, 2020, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 10:57:09 PM
I see I am the the scapegoat.

What you are doing, in any other walk of life is trying to isolate me and bully me with your nasty digs above. I am bery unimpressed and think the mods should step in and reprimand you all! An overly poisenous poster that has had a season ticket for around 60 years been to virtually every big game including all the relegations, what a horrible way to be treated by so called supporters.

I have expressed my honest view and do not expect to be discussed elsewhere.

PS Ivan is massively underachieving. he works hard, true, I cannot fault him for that. he seems to be a very nice man that is committed to the cause, i cannot fault him, but he is wasteful with his talent and has precious little end product.

Don't feel sorry for yourself. You are, truth be told, somewhat of a negative person. That's fine. You often make excellent points but seldom in a positive vein. For a sainted ( :022:) man like Peabody to take note, is, in itself, an indictment. Please continue you comments as you see fit but please don't be negative towards others.

Thanbk you for your response but what was being said started to get unpleasant for no other reason there is a very nasty few keyboard warriors on here that think they can insult who they like rather than engage in a sensible discussion. They really are taking all the fun out of trying to discuss football properly and it was rich to have a go at me after all the hours, days and years I have supported the club with blind loyalty at every game. but on here I say what i see and unfortunately most people forget my massive optimistic nature and the players I big up when they do well especially the ones who turn things round from a poor start.

and I do not attempt to belittle or ridiule anyone as was begining to happen.

I am very positive, i am probabl;y one of the few that actually sees no reason with the right selection and right tactics and right comitment that we cannot get a result on sunday or at least give a brilliant account of ourselves.

What I usually write here is a frustration at underachievement, such as with Cav who clearerly is very talented but seems to be untouchable where the manager is concerned because he is not doing it at the moment in terms of end product. his work ethic is brilliant and he clearly wants to do well but he needs a period on the bench as Knock had. I never critisesd Knock at all, I thought he was genuinely being singled out unfairly but he has come back even better.

If you watch what I say more carefully, you will see I am very positive. However regarding the ownership and his son, that is different. we need professionnals running the club and having an amateur as director of football is genuinely holding back the progress we should have made. Their hearts are in the right place but MAF had the right idea and they should learn from that.


Yes, I agree, you are usually on the optimistic side of things. Which is why I was surprised to read your comments on Ivan, a player, who I greatly admire and feel he has just a bit of the early Louis Boa Morte about him, in that sometimes he doesn't know what he is going to do next, which I find very entertaining. As for the scapegoat comment, Week after week we have people saying this player is this and that player is that,  or he shouldn't be etc etc. The only player to escape this is Michael  Hector but give it time.


Snibbo

 :plus one:
Quote from: alfie on January 24, 2020, 07:07:13 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 23, 2020, 10:52:09 PM
I find it hard to understand why Fulham and our players and our manager currently in third place, get so much criticism from its own supporters. Everything every error, miss or goals conceded are dissected so harshly, I find it hard to comprehend. It is not as though we have a Trophy Cabinet the size of Real Madrid's. That I could understand as the fans are use to success.
But the last time they opened up Fulhams Trophy Cabinet a pile of Tumbleweed blew out.
:plus one:

ALG01

Quote from: Peabody on January 25, 2020, 10:05:10 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 24, 2020, 11:06:06 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on January 24, 2020, 07:41:26 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 10:57:09 PM
I see I am the the scapegoat.

What you are doing, in any other walk of life is trying to isolate me and bully me with your nasty digs above. I am bery unimpressed and think the mods should step in and reprimand you all! An overly poisenous poster that has had a season ticket for around 60 years been to virtually every big game including all the relegations, what a horrible way to be treated by so called supporters.

I have expressed my honest view and do not expect to be discussed elsewhere.

PS Ivan is massively underachieving. he works hard, true, I cannot fault him for that. he seems to be a very nice man that is committed to the cause, i cannot fault him, but he is wasteful with his talent and has precious little end product.

Don't feel sorry for yourself. You are, truth be told, somewhat of a negative person. That's fine. You often make excellent points but seldom in a positive vein. For a sainted ( :022:) man like Peabody to take note, is, in itself, an indictment. Please continue you comments as you see fit but please don't be negative towards others.

Thanbk you for your response but what was being said started to get unpleasant for no other reason there is a very nasty few keyboard warriors on here that think they can insult who they like rather than engage in a sensible discussion. They really are taking all the fun out of trying to discuss football properly and it was rich to have a go at me after all the hours, days and years I have supported the club with blind loyalty at every game. but on here I say what i see and unfortunately most people forget my massive optimistic nature and the players I big up when they do well especially the ones who turn things round from a poor start.

and I do not attempt to belittle or ridiule anyone as was begining to happen.

I am very positive, i am probabl;y one of the few that actually sees no reason with the right selection and right tactics and right comitment that we cannot get a result on sunday or at least give a brilliant account of ourselves.

What I usually write here is a frustration at underachievement, such as with Cav who clearerly is very talented but seems to be untouchable where the manager is concerned because he is not doing it at the moment in terms of end product. his work ethic is brilliant and he clearly wants to do well but he needs a period on the bench as Knock had. I never critisesd Knock at all, I thought he was genuinely being singled out unfairly but he has come back even better.

If you watch what I say more carefully, you will see I am very positive. However regarding the ownership and his son, that is different. we need professionnals running the club and having an amateur as director of football is genuinely holding back the progress we should have made. Their hearts are in the right place but MAF had the right idea and they should learn from that.


Yes, I agree, you are usually on the optimistic side of things. Which is why I was surprised to read your comments on Ivan, a player, who I greatly admire and feel he has just a bit of the early Louis Boa Morte about him, in that sometimes he doesn't know what he is going to do next, which I find very entertaining. As for the scapegoat comment, Week after week we have people saying this player is this and that player is that,  or he shouldn't be etc etc. The only player to escape this is Michael  Hector but give it time.

Love the hector comment 064.gif

Skatzoffc

My view is that we have talented players in the squad/team but we are not playing to their strengths.

That lies at the door of the coach imo.
Not individual players being singled out for poor performancs in particular games.

Coyw!
Siblings, let us not be down on it.
One total catastrophe like this...is just the beginning !


The Rational Fan

#38
We have given this young manager a chance to learn his trade and if he LEARNS to be a good manager at Fulham, but we miss out on promotion twice, then no parachute payments means Fulham won't be able to afford the players he wants and we won't be able to afford Scott Parker's wages (onc he is highly rated) so he'll move on to a bigger club.

Do we want to be a club where people learn football, before those people move on to the premier league? With the most expensive squad, I think we had more chance of being promoted with some average with lots of experience that isn't improving as a coach (like Chris Hughton). We need to get promoted this season or next season or we could be down here for a very very long time.

Logicalman

Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 28, 2020, 02:00:14 AM
We have given this young manager a chance to learn his trade and if he LEARNS to be a good manager at Fulham, but we miss out on promotion twice, then no parachute payments means Fulham won't be able to afford the players he wants and we won't be able to afford Scott Parker's wages (onc he is highly rated) so he'll move on to a bigger club.

Do we want to be a club where people learn football, before those people move on to the premier league? With the most expensive squad, I think we had more chance of being promoted with some average with lots of experience that isn't improving as a coach (like Chris Hughton). We need to get promoted this season or next season or we could be down here for a very very long time.

So are you saying the SP will NOT learn his trade and so we should get shot of him, or we should let him continue learning his trade with the expectation that he will get us promoted by season 2021/22 for sure?

If the former, then why not give him until the end of this season and then, if he's not improving, get one of those "average Joe's with with lots of experience that isn't improving as a coach" in to get us promoted next season? If the latter, however, then at what point next season do we deem that Scotty isn't learning enough and try to get shot of him and get one of those "average Joe's with lots of experience that isn't improving as a coach" in to guarantee that promotion?

Lastly, can you actually guarantee promotion, either this year or next, with one of those "average Joe's with with lots of experience that isn't improving as a coach" either way?
Logical is just in the name - don't expect it has anything to do with my thought process, because I AM the man who sold the world.