Just re-watched the parma game and I am confused as to how people have come away with the conclusions that ruiz is the problem and that boateng looked good.
Boateng is without doubt fantastic at reading the game and breaking up play but he lost possession far too easily and was caught on the ball due to his poor first touch on several occasions. He reminds me of a more mobile Etuhu, with better passing ability. But the praise he is getting seems slightly farfetched and may be down to the fact people are so determined that new signings have to play. I am not saying he played badly, he did his job which is to defend, but he wasn't a world beater by any stretch of the imagination.
The Ruiz bashing is back for another season, and I still don't understand it, he is being played in a free role just behind berbatov and is charged with running the creativity of the team, at times single handedly. He has the hardest job in the team and the stick he's getting is ridiculous. Every attack of note was started by or involved ruiz. Much of his good work goes unnoticed.
I am confused about many of the opinions on this board, and even more confused at the amount of people agreeing with them. Opinions are what they are and I guess this is mine but I just don't understand. Is Ruiz being used as a scapegoat? Furthermore, I am sure Boateng will only improve as he blends with the team, but his constant praise is just an example.
you and me both
Ruiz isn't the problem. Playing Ruiz and Berbatov together seems to be a problem.
Quote from: Jack Fulham on August 12, 2013, 08:26:28 PM
Ruiz isn't the problem. Playing Ruiz and Berbatov together seems to be a problem.
It just isn't though.
The 'problem' is that we need a 3rd attacker alongside them - a player of pace and clinical finishing that can work off the vision, technique and class of Ruiz and Berbatov.
Yeah, Ruiz is the attacking scapegoat. He receives the ball probably the most of any player in the team, and thus probably loses it most. The latter part is recognised, the former not so much.
Thought Boateng was good though.
Spot on about Boateng....performances like Saturday could cost us many points/goals in the coming season.....we need someone more assured/calm in that position...
Watching Boateng on Saturday was the real worry for me
The guy is a defensive mid with no core strength, he got pushed off the ball more times than was decent.
I was expecting better ......................
And on the subject of scapegoats I would bet van Persie would look very ordinary if he got the supply
Rodders got .................... it was only scraps
Quote from: Jack Fulham on August 12, 2013, 08:26:28 PM
Ruiz isn't the problem. Playing Ruiz and Berbatov together seems to be a problem.
I've got to disagree. In my opinion, it's not playing Ruiz & Berba up top together, it's the lack of a ball player in the midfield...
If you had the greatest midfielder in the world, he couldn't pass to nothing. Berbatov is too slow as a loan forward and Ruiz too deep. We need a forward as well as a midfielder who can actually pass the ball.
Quote from: Lighthouse on August 12, 2013, 08:58:31 PM
If you had the greatest midfielder in the world, he couldn't pass to nothing. Berbatov is too slow as a loan forward and Ruiz too deep. We need a forward as well as a midfielder who can actually pass the ball.
But I don't think Ruiz would drop so deep if we had someone in the midfield that could play. Again, just my opinion...
Berba is a class act but he needs class around him. He needs to be fed constantly and needs to be found and not have to go looking to receive the ball. It's not something we are used to.
Ruiz is technically sound and again needs to be in a team with players moving around him to create space for him as to allow him to do his thing. I think the whole team needs a complete Re shape as we have too many players are not able to adapt to this new style that jol is looking to adopt
The problem is, is that Ruiz (in the eyes of some fans) is expected to play in three positions at once, holding midfield, playmaker, and forward, and whenever he has a good game as one of the three (like against Parma, he had a good game) he gets absolutely slaughtered.
Quote from: ollienixs on August 12, 2013, 09:38:43 PM
Berba is a class act but he needs class around him. He needs to be fed constantly and needs to be found and not have to go looking to receive the ball. It's not something we are used to.
Ruiz is technically sound and again needs to be in a team with players moving around him to create space for him as to allow him to do his thing. I think the whole team needs a complete Re shape as we have too many players are not able to adapt to this new style that jol is looking to adopt
I don't know what new style Jol is looking to adopt. I don't see it. Is it to attack more, to get the ball in the attacking half ASAP? As to class players needing class around them, I don't agree. I think quality will out regardless of who is nearby. Everyone looks better with better people around him. But a class player shines regardless. Which puts a big question mark over Bryan Ruiz.
Quote from: Forever Fulham on August 12, 2013, 09:49:21 PM
Quote from: ollienixs on August 12, 2013, 09:38:43 PM
Berba is a class act but he needs class around him. He needs to be fed constantly and needs to be found and not have to go looking to receive the ball. It's not something we are used to.
Ruiz is technically sound and again needs to be in a team with players moving around him to create space for him as to allow him to do his thing. I think the whole team needs a complete Re shape as we have too many players are not able to adapt to this new style that jol is looking to adopt
I don't know what new style Jol is looking to adopt. I don't see it. Is it to attack more, to get the ball in the attacking half ASAP? As to class players needing class around them, I don't agree. I think quality will out regardless of who is nearby. Everyone looks better with better people around him. But a class player shines regardless. Which puts a big question mark over Bryan Ruiz.
Does it put a question mark over bryan ruiz? In my opinion he shows his class, but it often goes unnoticed by people that expect every pass he makes to create a goal. His first touch and technique shine game after game.
Spot on about Ruiz Chutney.
What we need is a striker who can provide pace and movement. An outlet for Ruiz's evident skills. Someone who Berba can flourish with.
Anyone for Bent?
Why can't we just buy the geezer?
Quote from: The Old Count on August 12, 2013, 10:03:22 PM
Spot on about Ruiz Chutney.
What we need is a striker who can provide pace and movement. An outlet for Ruiz's evident skills. Someone who Berba can flourish with.
Anyone for Bent?
Why can't we just buy the geezer?
We'll either buy him deadline day for the £6m, or he'll be whisked away by Newcastle or similar in about a week for £5m.
He will, we hope (and think, I really do) make the world of difference tactically.
With footballers on the team I support, I'll take effective over evident or elegant skills any day.
I completely agree, what I'm saying is that ruiz is effective but doesn't get the praise he deserves for it, often because he doesn't hide from the ball during games like some other players. The team as a whole however, the skills are there, but not being used effectively.
Ruiz certainly didn't play well against Parma. Taarabt come on and looked 100x better.
Ruiz needs to learn to play between the lines. Stop dropping so deep, where he more often than not loses the ball. God knows how he played as a wide attacker at Twente as he's terrible wide. Ruiz got 7 assists last season 4 of those were from corners he took. He's not the creative genius that some on here believe.
More surprising than the criticism of Ruiz is the rush to defend him. He is a gutless player who will never make it in the Premier. Watch him closely when he plays and his shortcomings are obvious. He approaches 50/50 tackles with absolute fear and does everything to avoid them. He can be standing yards from an opponent who is receiving a pass and do nothing to put him under pressure. When put under physical pressure himself he gets rid of the ball as soon as possible, usually to the opposition. His pace, strength and bravery are highly suspect. In short he is no more than a passenger in most games.
There's obviously quite a bit wrong with the team... Boateng giving the ball away, Sidwell doing the same, Ruiz being given too much responsibility, berbas lacsidasical approach and playing as a lone front man - you could say its tactics or just personnel or both. Let us be honest here, the only ones who've come out with a good name still are riether and hangeland.. Dejagah still needs more fitness, riise and Richardson are a weak link... We cannot play a 4 2 2 1 1 with the ageing and lazy squad we have... Berba needs to be supported and our midfield, especially in the centre isn't good/reliable enough.. Steklenberg has looked shaky too.
One of Ruiz's problems he is teachers pet. I have noticed even the strongest supporters of Ruiz starting to say that Jol should sub him or even not start if off form.
But Jol does not do that. He will shuffle the pack in as many ways possible to get him in the team. No matter how good a player is, if he is off form he should sit out or be taken off.
The frustration against Jol not doing the above manifests itself into having a go at Ruiz, who you cant blame for just playing. You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
Whatever the merits of the dutch league, he scored something like 30 goals before he joined us. Now having looked at those goals you can see that he plays as a striker, almost always on the last man. He's not playing as a No 10 and creating, he's doing the business end of things in the box. Jol has turned a striker into a player we all fear having the ball 30 yards from his OWN goal.
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 07:53:21 AM
One of Ruiz's problems he is teachers pet. I have noticed even the strongest supporters of Ruiz starting to say that Jol should sub him or even not start if off form.
But Jol does not do that. He will shuffle the pack in as many ways possible to get him in the team. No matter how good a player is, if he is off form he should sit out or be taken off.
The frustration against Jol not doing the above manifests itself into having a go at Ruiz, who you cant blame for just playing. You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
Whatever the merits of the dutch league, he scored something like 30 goals before he joined us. Now having looked at those goals you can see that he plays as a striker, almost always on the last man. He's not playing as a No 10 and creating, he's doing the business end of things in the box. Jol has turned a striker into a player we all fear having the ball 30 yards from his OWN goal.
You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.sorry not too sure what you mean here, what best partnership from last season?
Quote from: alfie on August 13, 2013, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 07:53:21 AM
One of Ruiz's problems he is teachers pet. I have noticed even the strongest supporters of Ruiz starting to say that Jol should sub him or even not start if off form.
But Jol does not do that. He will shuffle the pack in as many ways possible to get him in the team. No matter how good a player is, if he is off form he should sit out or be taken off.
The frustration against Jol not doing the above manifests itself into having a go at Ruiz, who you cant blame for just playing. You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
Whatever the merits of the dutch league, he scored something like 30 goals before he joined us. Now having looked at those goals you can see that he plays as a striker, almost always on the last man. He's not playing as a No 10 and creating, he's doing the business end of things in the box. Jol has turned a striker into a player we all fear having the ball 30 yards from his OWN goal.
You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
sorry not too sure what you mean here, what best partnership from last season?
Riether & Dejagah
It is interesting that there is a feeling that if we get the top quality midfield player in and the right forward, that would bring the best out of Ruiz. But if we do bring in those players, there appears to me to be no obvious role for Ruiz. I see different formation permutations to try to squeeze him into the side but to my eyes they all lack balance and shape. For all his glimpses of skill and class - I just never see him control the tempo of a game enough let alone dominate enough to justify restructuring the shape of the side to accommodate him.
My view is that if you pick a player like Berbatov - you have to build a team around him to make good his shortcomings - but with a back up plan B if he is injured/suspended. My take on last season and pre season this season is that Berbatov and Ruiz do not work as a 9 and 10 combo - Ruiz does not compensate for Berbatov's shortcomings - he does not make the runs to stretch the defence and rarely gets beyond Berbatov. Both of them play at a slow tempo. Counter intuitive as it may seem, since both are technically good players, but I think a major reason why he were so dull to watch last season was down to the Berbatov/Ruiz combo (altho a lack of a quality midfielder was also part of the problem).
It is wrong to assume that a team of skillful players will be exciting to watch - an England midfield of Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes was deathly dull since there were no complementary skills in that midfield. The same was true when England tried to squeeze Hoddle, Wilkins and Rix into the same midfield. It is all about shape and balance and complementary skill sets and we simply do not have it with those two. Ruiz can be part of a plan B - but should not be part of plan A - if he is - then as things stand I see us as serious relegation contenders this season.
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 08:27:13 AM
Quote from: alfie on August 13, 2013, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 07:53:21 AM
One of Ruiz's problems he is teachers pet. I have noticed even the strongest supporters of Ruiz starting to say that Jol should sub him or even not start if off form.
But Jol does not do that. He will shuffle the pack in as many ways possible to get him in the team. No matter how good a player is, if he is off form he should sit out or be taken off.
The frustration against Jol not doing the above manifests itself into having a go at Ruiz, who you cant blame for just playing. You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
Whatever the merits of the dutch league, he scored something like 30 goals before he joined us. Now having looked at those goals you can see that he plays as a striker, almost always on the last man. He's not playing as a No 10 and creating, he's doing the business end of things in the box. Jol has turned a striker into a player we all fear having the ball 30 yards from his OWN goal.
You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
sorry not too sure what you mean here, what best partnership from last season?
Riether & Dejagah
sorry i must be bit slow, when did he break them up, i though Dejagah got injured.
Quote from: alfie on August 13, 2013, 11:05:09 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 08:27:13 AM
Quote from: alfie on August 13, 2013, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 07:53:21 AM
One of Ruiz's problems he is teachers pet. I have noticed even the strongest supporters of Ruiz starting to say that Jol should sub him or even not start if off form.
But Jol does not do that. He will shuffle the pack in as many ways possible to get him in the team. No matter how good a player is, if he is off form he should sit out or be taken off.
The frustration against Jol not doing the above manifests itself into having a go at Ruiz, who you cant blame for just playing. You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
Whatever the merits of the dutch league, he scored something like 30 goals before he joined us. Now having looked at those goals you can see that he plays as a striker, almost always on the last man. He's not playing as a No 10 and creating, he's doing the business end of things in the box. Jol has turned a striker into a player we all fear having the ball 30 yards from his OWN goal.
You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
sorry not too sure what you mean here, what best partnership from last season?
Riether & Dejagah
sorry i must be bit slow, when did he break them up, i though Dejagah got injured.
He has done it in a few of the friendlies by moving Dejagah on the left. Absolutely no need to do that or even look at it as an option.
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 11:12:56 AM
Quote from: alfie on August 13, 2013, 11:05:09 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 08:27:13 AM
Quote from: alfie on August 13, 2013, 08:04:48 AM
Quote from: MJG on August 13, 2013, 07:53:21 AM
One of Ruiz's problems he is teachers pet. I have noticed even the strongest supporters of Ruiz starting to say that Jol should sub him or even not start if off form.
But Jol does not do that. He will shuffle the pack in as many ways possible to get him in the team. No matter how good a player is, if he is off form he should sit out or be taken off.
The frustration against Jol not doing the above manifests itself into having a go at Ruiz, who you cant blame for just playing. You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
Whatever the merits of the dutch league, he scored something like 30 goals before he joined us. Now having looked at those goals you can see that he plays as a striker, almost always on the last man. He's not playing as a No 10 and creating, he's doing the business end of things in the box. Jol has turned a striker into a player we all fear having the ball 30 yards from his OWN goal.
You cant blame Ruiz for breaking up the best partnership of last season, that's fully Jol's fault.
sorry not too sure what you mean here, what best partnership from last season?
Riether & Dejagah
sorry i must be bit slow, when did he break them up, i though Dejagah got injured.
He has done it in a few of the friendlies by moving Dejagah on the left. Absolutely no need to do that or even look at it as an option.
Ok ic, still not worth worrying about yet lets see what he does when it really matters.
I was worried when we signed Boateng in fairness.... He is another hot jead who is likely to miss games through suspension.... not what we need when we have sidwell already.
I think Sidwell and or Boateng would be ok if they had a decent partner to play with.... Both of them together is not good in the slightest....
As for Ruiz I think Jol is to blame for him.... Ok he was and maybe still is very lightweight, but the guy is very creative and does have a bit of a wow factor.... The only problem is he cannot work well with Berbatov as they are very similar, Jol is desperate for Ruiz to work that he plays him all over the place.... He or Berbatov should play but unfortunately not together.... the only problem with that is Berbatov is the classiest player we have, and dropping him will just make him sulk.... If Berbatov gets injured I have faith thar Ruiz can step into his shoes and perform in the role Berbatov plays....
We need a big man with pace who can unsettle defensive formations, create some momentary chaos, allowing Ruiz or Berbatov or even Ashkan to pounce when the deep position ball is played back. Some guy who can take the punishment, dish out some his own, and get the back lines to make mistakes in marking. You can't do that as a slower player. And though possible, it's harder to do it as a small darty forward. The new mold is a Benteke, a Lukuku, Drogba, Bendtner, Zlatan, etc. Jozy Altidore has the size, the speed, and the strength. And his technical ability and game IQ has much improved. We need someone like that. Which is why I'm kind of drawn to Osvaldo. And if you don't have the physical power, but you have all the rest, you're, let's see... Suarez. You dive instead of collide. You bite, punch, slap, elbow, poke if you have to. You make do. 50 goals in two seasons. Sigh.