If you are ever going to have a successful management structure you cannot take someone from the previously diabolical team in management and continue it. You need a complete break. We didn't. In management if you are to have a proper working structure you cannot clout the management with lots of people at the top with seemingly the same levels of responsibility. Someone has to be clearly in charge and clearly accountable and one would suggest experienced enough.
NONE OF THAT HAPPENED. If and I would hope when we get rid of Rene I would suggest Curbishley and Wilkins go to. We have 14 games. It is very close as it is, but we are simply not going to turn things around with the management in place we have at the moment.
The players proved to everyone in the first few games after Jol left how important a new breath of fresh air was and how competent they are. Rene is obsessed with playing attacking football - we need to play solid and defensive football. All three of Southamptons goals the other weekend were scored by having Hangeland and Riether out of position. in attacking positions.
the players have lost all passion for the game which results in tangible gains.
Quote from: General on February 05, 2014, 01:32:43 PM
we need to play solid and defensive football.
Please Fulham don't ever go down this route, we cannot play like that in the modern game.
Quote from: JoeyFFC on February 05, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: General on February 05, 2014, 01:32:43 PM
we need to play solid and defensive football.
Please Fulham don't ever go down this route, we cannot play like that in the modern game.
In case you haven't noticed, we do not create goals. If we are not rock solid in defense, we WILL lose every remaining match. We've been failing to play "the modern game" all season long. That's why we find ourselves where we are.
Quote from: General on February 05, 2014, 01:32:43 PM
If you are ever going to have a successful management structure you cannot take someone from the previously diabolical team in management and continue it. You need a complete break. We didn't. In management if you are to have a proper working structure you cannot clout the management with lots of people at the top with seemingly the same levels of responsibility. Someone has to be clearly in charge and clearly accountable and one would suggest experienced enough.
NONE OF THAT HAPPENED. If and I would hope when we get rid of Rene I would suggest Curbishley and Wilkins go to. We have 14 games. It is very close as it is, but we are simply not going to turn things around with the management in place we have at the moment.
The players proved to everyone in the first few games after Jol left how important a new breath of fresh air was and how competent they are. Rene is obsessed with playing attacking football - we need to play solid and defensive football. All three of Southamptons goals the other weekend were scored by having Hangeland and Riether out of position. in attacking positions.
the players have lost all passion for the game which results in tangible gains.
I agree with your argument that we need to start fresh, if a sacking is felt to be the only remaining option. I believe we need to get away from - and not necessarily for the long term - player's coaches, which Rene and Jol seem to have been. Right now, the rest of this season, we need a manager who can put the fear of God into these players - someone who can quickly focus these players on something other than losing and being relegated. I think a manager who's not afraid to put his boot up a player's backside may be the only type manager who can turn us around quickly enough to survive.
General you usually post sensible posts but to say the fault is renee playing attacking football is absurd, when have we attacked since dumb and dumber came in to help him? best form of defence is attack, watch the southampton team , watch and weep, that is how you win games.
All the best teams have a sound defence - Man City, Chelsea, Barcelona and even Arsenal this year (which is why they are doing well). We had a sound defence under Roy and he would not countenance a player who did not fit into his system.
Quote from: epsomraver on February 05, 2014, 02:02:04 PM
General you usually post sensible posts but to say the fault is renee playing attacking football is absurd, when have we attacked since dumb and dumber came in to help him? best form of defence is attack, watch the southampton team , watch and weep, that is how you win games.
I just don't know where the goals are going to come from. The Greek may have the potential to be the best forward that Fulham have ever had - who knows - but we can't seem to get the ball to anyone in positions to score - well except for Bent, but you know what happens then.
We transition poorly and, even worse, slowly to defense. We tackle poorly on top of that, which all results in far too many set pieces which we defend horrendously.
We do not score enough to cover for our defensive failings. If we are not first defensively sound, attacking won't help us enough I'm afraid.
Obviously the defence needs fixing but Rene please play the attacking football you favour and tell the"dumbs"to wind their necks in or better still go.
We also need to start playing a familiar team - there is no way we can expect to win games without the stability of having a regular starting team.
Quote from: Eggs for Breakfast on February 05, 2014, 02:04:21 PM
All the best teams have a sound defence - Man City, Chelsea, Barcelona and even Arsenal this year (which is why they are doing well). We had a sound defence under Roy and he would not countenance a player who did not fit into his system.
With Roy we developed a sound defence (despite having a maverick like Pantsill at Right Back), a settled line-up and the system was the same game after game meaning everyone knew exactly where they were with it. Under current management the system seems to change almost every week along with the personnel and not surprisingly the players seem at sixes and sevens.
I'm convinced that Rene is now not the answer for us. He may become a good manager over years once he's learned the trade, but I am not prepared to wait to find out.
So who is the answer? As I said in another thread, It depends if the focus is trying to stay up, or building for the future beyond what is looking like an increasingly certain relegation.
If it is the former, I feel that Curbs may be our best bet. I ordinarily would not even consider him, but he has had a chance to have a good look at the squad, to assess what we've got and try and devise a way of playing that can pick up points. Also, his experience of fighting relegation battles helps. I fear it maybe by now too late to bring someone in from outside to effect a rescue mission.
My choice would be Curbs in charge from now until the end of the season. Meanwhile, the club should be searching for the right man to lead our charge back from the championship.
Quote from: Barrie on February 05, 2014, 03:30:38 PM
I'm convinced that Rene is now not the answer for us. He may become a good manager over years once he's learned the trade, but I am not prepared to wait to find out.
So who is the answer? As I said in another thread, It depends if the focus is trying to stay up, or building for the future beyond what is looking like an increasingly certain relegation.
If it is the former, I feel that Curbs may be our best bet. I ordinarily would not even consider him, but he has had a chance to have a good look at the squad, to assess what we've got and try and devise a way of playing that can pick up points. Also, his experience of fighting relegation battles helps. I fear it maybe by now too late to bring someone in from outside to effect a rescue mission.
My choice would be Curbs in charge from now until the end of the season. Meanwhile, the club should be searching for the right man to lead our charge back from the championship.
I agree, relegation is all but certain, and clearly Rene has failed and there seems no point in letting him continue. It would be nice to start next season with the basis of a reasonable team and manager in place so perhaps now is the time to give Curbs a chance.
I certainly don`t like Curbishley and Wilkins but then again I did not like Roy when he first came - so you never know (well we do know about Wilkins)
RM seems like a nice guy. Intelligent and knowledgeable. However, he had Ferguson in charge and all the players were scared of him. They knew if they stepped out of line what would happen. (Beckham, Cantona, Keane and many more can all testify to that). RM was a coach, no authority over the players beyond his job description.
Never liked Wilkins and Curbishley is a football dinosaur. Might as well bring in George Graham. (just kidding).
Bring in MacKay
So we have gone from a manager that could not coach, to a coach that can't manage.
We have gone from totally blaming Jol for everything as the buck stops with him, to blame Wilkins/Curbs who we have no idea what their briefs are, RM is a top European/World coach and I do not think for one moment that the likes of Wilks/Curbs will be changing his coaching methods, so by that token he is the manager/head coach the responsibility like Jol is his.
In my humble opinion certain players raised their game in the beginning but in to be honest they are just not good enough anymore and no amount of coaching will change that, Hangeland cannot make a decent forward pass whatsoever, his passes never seem to go anywhere near a Fulham player, I believe he panics at the back and just wants to get rid of the ball quickly by either aimless passes up field or passing it sideways, we are having a go at a centre half who is playing as a left back (remember Baird), we have brought back Dempsey that had a fantastic season with us but could not keep it up at Spurs and is now very average, Parker was a revelation when he came but now it all looks too much for him, Sidwell has a fantastic attitude but again not much more than average, Reither for all his skill spends too much time up the park and not enough defending, Riise who I really like just cannot do it any more, Kasami again a fantastic work ethic but so crash bang wallop sort of a player, Kaca has not and I don't think will improve, Ashkan again wonderful skills but seems to lack a bit of confidence, Duff cannot do it anymore, good for 15/20 mins but not much more. Richardson in my opinion is a much better left midfielder player than full back.
Quote from: JoeyFFC on February 05, 2014, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: General on February 05, 2014, 01:32:43 PM
we need to play solid and defensive football.
Please Fulham don't ever go down this route, we cannot play like that in the modern game.
Playing solid, disciplined defensive football is
exactly what Hodgson got the players doing in the Great Escape season. Are you saying the game has change so much in the past six years that defense is now obsolete?
Can anyone explain what's so bad about Curbishley, other than the fact that he's now part of the confusing management team that's doing such a bad job? He did quite well at Charlton and well enough at West Ham.
Why the hell did we not field our strongest 11, I mean is he saving them for the game against Man U, seems to me the more time our first 11 spend together we might just might start looking like a team again, God it was dross last night, and I have seen some in the past, like a good few on this site I also have followed FFC for many years, since 69/70 and I don't want us going back that way again.
Quote from: Joe5 on February 05, 2014, 06:15:24 PM
Why the hell did we not field our strongest 11, I mean is he saving them for the game against Man U, seems to me the more time our first 11 spend together we might just might start looking like a team again, God it was dross last night, and I have seen some in the past, like a good few on this site I also have followed FFC for many years, since 69/70 and I don't want us going back that way again.
Wait! Stop the presses! A supporter who's been around since before the PL's existence who isn't pining away for the good ol' days of comfort and ease of footballing obscurity in the lower divisions!!! You sir ( or madam - Joe could be short for Josephine I guess ) must be bubble wrapped and preserved. :005:
A major problem is that we can't even attack on the break and find players, there's no pace, rarely anyone to pass to and by the time we've messed about passing Willkins-like across and backwards, the other teams have 9/10 behind the ball.
It seems to me that nearly every team has 13/14 players, they buzz around so much. Southampton seemed to have about 15 against us and almost every pass out of defence/midfield found one of their players.