This is the worst ever sonce i supported fulham. worse than clay, bulstrode and branfoot combined.
worse because it is avoidable, unnecessary and made of a combination of gross negligence and incompetence
every wrong descision was foreseable and avoidable.
The manager/head coach is even 'obliged' to persevere with a center forward incapable of holding the ball or winning a header just so we might get a fee for him this transferdealine. It is a pathetic trick to play on long term supporters to continue to play out of form, sub standard players. we will continue going backwards till this perverse situation continues.
I know lobnger believ theat Mr khan has the inclination to fix what he has done wrong because if he did and was serious about makling us successful we woulnt have AM or mr rigg still at the club. Shame on all of them for what they have done and are continuing to do!
PS sacking Kit looks like one of the most pathetic errors ever because leaving us withouit a team leader was suicidal. I do not trust our management's ability to hard boil an egg.
I was just asked at home if i really thought this was the worst it has ever been and I said I do and what is worse, I think if it comntiues for much longer our future is at stake because we are going backwards so fast our position as a league club will be untenable at Craven Cottage, we will end up taking up rescidence in Kingston when AFC move out. I can easilly see that happening. Don't believe me, just watch.
For me, yes, because what is happening now, doesn't need to happen, if competent people were in charge. These are a catalogue of errors made by rich people, who frankly, don't have a scooby what they are doing in the footballing arena. They are slowly killing the very platform which this club successfully built over the years.
Speaking with my Dad earlier (he's 84) - and me and him both agreed we couldn't think of a worse time that Fulham had experienced...... We both find it quite sinister
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on December 26, 2015, 10:48:31 PM
Speaking with my Dad earlier (he's 84) - and me and him both agreed we couldn't think of a worse time that Fulham had experienced...... We both find it quite sinister
I said at the start of this season and after the transfer window closed I felt we were more like relegation material than top 6 stuff. we had a bit of a decent run, moved up slowly and then on the back of two poor results sacked the manager. and now do not have one or even remotely look like getting a proper one.
my blood turned cold when the three of them gave the interview in the close season. It was all wrong. Then when rigg said we want a head coach not a manager it was even more wrong. He should go, Mr rigg that is, his track record is actually poor, what is he doing here... and AM should have gone two years ago. The whole thing is bizarre.
Yes I worry something odd and possible sinister could be happening behind the scenes we are not aware of
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
That, we couldn't really do much about, because they had intent. This is different, because the Club doesn't need to be in the position it does now.
Be very afraid. The way the club is being run we will for sure be going down to League 1. Surely that isn't the agenda...................or is it?
I agree with much of what you say Mr. Nose but would add that the myth that we had a strong squad must have been perpetratred because Rigg knew an embargo was coming. the squad had to be "good" because it was not going to get any better this year! There are people on this board who have also sustained the idea that Rigg had a good reputation before coming to Fulham. Not true if one speaks to QPR supporters. They think he wasted the owner's money and delivered a sub-standard team. Some think he ruined that club. The myth of a quality squad and a quality Chief Football Officer serve only Rigg. If Khan believes these two notions then he really is the numpty that another thread suspects he might be.
I believe that the imposition of the pseudo-American structure of a Chief Football Officer (Rigg) who the manager reports to has killed off most of our possible candidates. Perhaps I'm wrong but it is hard to fathom why any manager of merit would feel comfortable reporting to Rigg on Football matters. Would Roy? Tigana? Hughes? Jol?
One area I can't agree with you (and most on the board) about is placing the blame of our present incomprehensible plight at the feet of Alistair Mackintosh. Khan took him out of the picture on football decisions a while ago. Alistair didn't appoint Magath but Khan stuck him with the blame. Khan is using him as a bullet catcher in the same way he used the infamous "committee" to pick a manager. He needs the blame to sit with someone other than him and he's willing to pay for that privilege. I suspect the only way to get Khan to act is for his "image" to get pricked. He is a vain man and an awful owner. When we call him out for his apalling stewardship he might actually decide to do something to turn the tide. Perhaps a rousing chorus of "We've been Khanned" from Hammy End on Tuesday night might remind him that the fans aren't blaming Kit, or Mr. Gray, or Alistair Mac, or the players anymore. They blame him. Maybe the message will get home. Maybe it will provoke him into getting better advice. Who knows? One thing is certain - if we lose against Rotherham we are in serious trouble.
Quote from: Mighty Maik on December 26, 2015, 11:28:48 PM
I agree with much of what you say Mr. Nose but would add that the myth that we had a strong squad must have been perpetratred because Rigg knew an embargo was coming. the squad had to be "good" because it was not going to get any better this year! There are people on this board who have also sustained the idea that Rigg had a good reputation before coming to Fulham. Not true if one speaks to QPR supporters. They think he wasted the owner's money and delivered a sub-standard team. Some think he ruined that club. The myth of a quality squad and a quality Chief Football Officer serve only Rigg. If Khan believes these two notions then he really is the numpty that another thread suspects he might be.
I believe that the imposition of the pseudo-American structure of a Chief Football Officer (Rigg) who the manager reports to has killed off most of our possible candidates. Perhaps I'm wrong but it is hard to fathom why any manager of merit would feel comfortable reporting to Rigg on Football matters. Would Roy? Tigana? Hughes? Jol?
One area I can't agree with you (and most on the board) about is placing the blame of our present incomprehensible plight at the feet of Alistair Mackintosh. Khan took him out of the picture on football decisions a while ago. Alistair didn't appoint Magath but Khan stuck him with the blame. Khan is using him as a bullet catcher in the same way he used the infamous "committee" to pick a manager. He needs the blame to sit with someone other than him and he's willing to pay for that privilege. I suspect the only way to get Khan to act is for his "image" to get pricked. He is a vain man and an awful owner. When we call him out for his apalling stewardship he might actually decide to do something to turn the tide. Perhaps a rousing chorus of "We've been Khanned" from Hammy End on Tuesday night might remind him that the fans aren't blaming Kit, or Mr. Gray, or Alistair Mac, or the players anymore. They blame him. Maybe the message will get home. Maybe it will provoke him into getting better advice. Who knows? One thing is certain - if we lose against Rotherham we are in serious trouble.
nicely written and a good answer BUT it surely looks to the world and his brother that AM was to blame for a vast array of errors including Magath. Khan would never have appointed him without the agreement of his top man at the club and that was AM. If not him who? amd if he was that weak that he allowed that descision then we certainly do not need him. and mitroglu was on his watch as was Jol. when khan took over, he should have ensured jol left immediately and when he did eventually go, rene was much to great a gamble when there were good experienced candidtes gagging for a job like fulham.
And the close season three man interview was a very poor showing from AM, he seemed weak and marginalised. He is defintely a majoir problem. No question his sins are many and date back, he should be gone too 100%. we need a clean sweep of the old guard that have crippled us.
Maik, it is a pleasure to talk to somebody that with so few posts as you seems to talk so nicely. shame you haven't been around before because we needed eloquent people on the board to help.
Quote from: Wearethewhites on December 26, 2015, 11:15:20 PM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
That, we couldn't really do much about, because they had intent. This is different, because the Club doesn't need to be in the position it does now.
exactly. it is worse because we have money, own the ground and were comfortably in the premiership and just blew it all away. we even sold the whole squad! Imbesilic behaviour. I can think of no other words to adequately describe what took place and continues to take place.
Clay and bulstrode were out and out villians, this is worse, it doesn't need to be.
If it turns out that we have refused to pay the compensation for the latest manager. Then it would certainly appear that we have people in charge with sinister motives. Something that up to this point I firmly believed wasn't the case and that they were just incompetent.
But there would have been no reason to sack a manager and now make our season one of struggle. As they knew we had a Jan embargo and have made such a mess of finding a replacement. I apologise for thinking that the owner and his people were just incompetent as it now looks that they knew exactly what they are doing.
I have a very bad feeling that Tony Khan and his analytics was responsible for Magath. Aliaster was lumbered with it and he was a good soldier. I think the weakness remark is a bullseye however because with Magath's cv no one could really pre-judge - but once the club's Administrators knew Magath was stripping the soul of the club and alienating the entire squad they should have stepped in - it was an open secret by the end that Magath was loopy. The manner in which Brede was let go was appalling. The cheese story had been circulating. Magath was vindictive. If AM had been stronger none of that would have had to happen. At the root of this, however, is Khan. He is not a kindly lost man who has gotten poor directions. He is telling people what to do after inadequate consideration and then blaming them for doing his bidding. We could be in for an existential fight in the next few years to save the club.
Before I bow out of this thread let me get this straight. Bad though the current situation is, some here think it is worse than the ground being sold and built on and the club going out of existence. OK. Fine!
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 12:25:25 AM
Before I bow out of this thread let me get this straight. Bad though the current situation is, some here think it is worse than the ground being sold and built on and the club going out of existence. OK. Fine!
No if you read what is being said. What people are saying is that what is happening now was avoidable on so many levels and over a long period of time. When we were having the ground sold etc. That was down to people wanting to make money and sell us up the river and not invest in the club. That is why people consider it a worse situation.
Prime riverside real estate!!
Its a big plot of land in one of the most expensive places in the country. Cheapest way to get such a big plot, is the buy the club as he's done. Now, he's slowly running it into the ground so its not necessary for us to be in the ground, then the high end flats will appear. Only losers will be us.
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
Quote from: Lighthouse on December 27, 2015, 12:34:43 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 12:25:25 AM
Before I bow out of this thread let me get this straight. Bad though the current situation is, some here think it is worse than the ground being sold and built on and the club going out of existence. OK. Fine!
No if you read what is being said. What people are saying is that what is happening now was avoidable on so many levels and over a long period of time. When we were having the ground sold etc. That was down to people wanting to make money and sell us up the river and not invest in the club. That is why people consider it a worse situation.
Thanks very much mate, that does clarify matters to a degree.
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
You and me both. It does seem that the vacuum left by the lack of news is being filled by some fairly wild conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to think of any sort of business in 'the real world' which would treat its customer-base as badly as FFC is currently treating theirs and still expect it to remain loyal to the brand.
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
You and me both. It does seem that the vacuum left by the lack of news is being filled by some fairly wild conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to think of any sort of business in 'the real world' which would treat its customer-base as badly as FFC is currently treating theirs and still expect it to remain loyal to the brand.
As I've asked again and again WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT TO READ/HEAR?
No business/club will give a blow by blow account of a search or where failures in employing someone has happened.
Its true that the club/rigg/khan should have done something within last week or two to explain where we are, but Khan did use the programme recently.
But as soon as club put something out its ripped apart anyway so I suspect the club is in a bit of a siege mentality at the moment. The real personal attacks against some individuals is not going to help either in getting them to talk more.
If Rigg let's say had said every Monday 'we are working on things and hope to have someone soon' that would get attacked, so club can't win.
If all that makes me sound as an apologist then so be it. But its in my make up to try to look at things from both sides. But I'm not impressed at all with what's going on, but that doesn't mean I'm going to have a go at fans who don't agree with my view, which is what I'm seeing more and more on here and its ugly. And its putting me off coming on here.
If there is one thing all Fulham fans need to do at the moment is keep a steady head, stay calm and be united.Be you a conspiracy theorist or not, we are all Fulham fans.
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
The buck stops with Khan (in more ways than one!). I started watching Fulham in the mid sixties when we were asset stripped, then replaced the likes of Clarke with Large, etc, etc. Then the very near miss under the odious Clay/Bulstrode. Khan speaks a good game but has made error after error with broken promises, employing a jumped up business machines type idiot in Rigg, and entrusting the future of our great club to people who have taken us backwards. The decline is really alarming, nobody seems to want to come on board to manage us as Rigg seems to scare people away with his arrogance and Americanised 'agenda'. God only knows why Kit was sacked without a ready replacement? Definitely time to demonstrate our angst against these clowns.
With a decent manager on board who knows how to set up a defence properly, we could and should have been challenging for the play offs, minimum. Rigg out, that would be a positive start.
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
You and me both. It does seem that the vacuum left by the lack of news is being filled by some fairly wild conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to think of any sort of business in 'the real world' which would treat its customer-base as badly as FFC is currently treating theirs and still expect it to remain loyal to the brand.
As I've asked again and again WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT TO READ/HEAR?
No business/club will give a blow by blow account of a search or where failures in employing someone has happened.
Its true that the club/rigg/khan should have done something within last week or two to explain where we are, but Khan did use the programme recently.
But as soon as club put something out its ripped apart anyway so I suspect the club is in a bit of a siege mentality at the moment. The real personal attacks against some individuals is not going to help either in getting them to talk more.
If Rigg let's say had said every Monday 'we are working on things and hope to have someone soon' that would get attacked, so club can't win.
If all that makes me sound as an apologist then so be it. But its in my make up to try to look at things from both sides. But I'm not impressed at all with what's going on, but that doesn't mean I'm going to have a go at fans who don't agree with my view, which is what I'm seeing more and more on here and its ugly. And its putting me off coming on here.
If there is one thing all Fulham fans need to do at the moment is keep a steady head, stay calm and be united.Be you a conspiracy theorist or not, we are all Fulham fans.
I absolutely agree with you. There is no way the club will or should reveal what it is up too. No business ever does or can. But what is a problem for us as supporters is that we can see a terrible decline and apparently no action. I wasn't impressed with mr.khan's programme notes, but honestly i would probably have written the same.
I know we have disagreed on this before but he should turn up at times like this and show himself at the games. That would be a start of leadership. when it is going well, you can stay away, when iot is not you have to lead from the front, all the great generals and war leaders knew this, why do you think the queen and royal's show up in disaster areas, it is to lend support, in it together. That is why when dianna died and the queen remained in scotland, everyone was shocked, she had to be in london and it was only then we came together.
Mr khan has to attend games and be more visible, he has to prove he is one of us to unite all his assests, us!
but i do agree, they are never going to be able to reveal who they are talking to and what stage a negotiation might be at.
This is a terrible feeling when nothing is going right for the club i love so much, quite depressing thinking about our Europa League side compared to now. Players like Zolton Gera, Aaron Hughes and Simon Davies would give there all and play out of there skins for us, comparing it to our artificial team with no character now. But through thick n thin we keep supporting and do our best as incredible fans of our charming club! COYW.
I believe that the imposition of the pseudo-American structure of a Chief Football Officer (Rigg) who the manager reports to has killed off most of our possible candidates. Perhaps I'm wrong but it is hard to fathom why any manager of merit would feel comfortable reporting to Rigg on Football matters. Would Roy? Tigana? Hughes? Jol?
[/quote]
But surely this has nothing to do with a 'pseudo-American structure' , but is actually a structure which used in the vast majority of clubs throughout Europe and indeed was in place down the road at Stamford Bridge until Mourinho first took over. Frank Arnesen was Director of Football and served alongside a number of Head Coaches.
Quote from: nose on December 27, 2015, 12:00:23 AM
Quote from: Mighty Maik on December 26, 2015, 11:28:48 PM
I agree with much of what you say Mr. Nose but would add that the myth that we had a strong squad must have been perpetratred because Rigg knew an embargo was coming. the squad had to be "good" because it was not going to get any better this year! There are people on this board who have also sustained the idea that Rigg had a good reputation before coming to Fulham. Not true if one speaks to QPR supporters. They think he wasted the owner's money and delivered a sub-standard team. Some think he ruined that club. The myth of a quality squad and a quality Chief Football Officer serve only Rigg. If Khan believes these two notions then he really is the numpty that another thread suspects he might be.
I believe that the imposition of the pseudo-American structure of a Chief Football Officer (Rigg) who the manager reports to has killed off most of our possible candidates. Perhaps I'm wrong but it is hard to fathom why any manager of merit would feel comfortable reporting to Rigg on Football matters. Would Roy? Tigana? Hughes? Jol?
One area I can't agree with you (and most on the board) about is placing the blame of our present incomprehensible plight at the feet of Alistair Mackintosh. Khan took him out of the picture on football decisions a while ago. Alistair didn't appoint Magath but Khan stuck him with the blame. Khan is using him as a bullet catcher in the same way he used the infamous "committee" to pick a manager. He needs the blame to sit with someone other than him and he's willing to pay for that privilege. I suspect the only way to get Khan to act is for his "image" to get pricked. He is a vain man and an awful owner. When we call him out for his apalling stewardship he might actually decide to do something to turn the tide. Perhaps a rousing chorus of "We've been Khanned" from Hammy End on Tuesday night might remind him that the fans aren't blaming Kit, or Mr. Gray, or Alistair Mac, or the players anymore. They blame him. Maybe the message will get home. Maybe it will provoke him into getting better advice. Who knows? One thing is certain - if we lose against Rotherham we are in serious trouble.
nicely written and a good answer BUT it surely looks to the world and his brother that AM was to blame for a vast array of errors including Magath. Khan would never have appointed him without the agreement of his top man at the club and that was AM. If not him who? amd if he was that weak that he allowed that descision then we certainly do not need him. and mitroglu was on his watch as was Jol. when khan took over, he should have ensured jol left immediately and when he did eventually go, rene was much to great a gamble when there were good experienced candidtes gagging for a job like fulham.
And the close season three man interview was a very poor showing from AM, he seemed weak and marginalised. He is defintely a majoir problem. No question his sins are many and date back, he should be gone too 100%. we need a clean sweep of the old guard that have crippled us.
Maik, it is a pleasure to talk to somebody that with so few posts as you seems to talk so nicely. shame you haven't been around before because we needed eloquent people on the board to help.
:plus one:
Ali Mac is seriuosly culpable in my view and I've said it many times. How he is still here is unfathomable.
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
You and me both. It does seem that the vacuum left by the lack of news is being filled by some fairly wild conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to think of any sort of business in 'the real world' which would treat its customer-base as badly as FFC is currently treating theirs and still expect it to remain loyal to the brand.
As I've asked again and again WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT TO READ/HEAR?
No business/club will give a blow by blow account of a search or where failures in employing someone has happened.
Its true that the club/rigg/khan should have done something within last week or two to explain where we are, but Khan did use the programme recently.
But as soon as club put something out its ripped apart anyway so I suspect the club is in a bit of a siege mentality at the moment. The real personal attacks against some individuals is not going to help either in getting them to talk more.
If Rigg let's say had said every Monday 'we are working on things and hope to have someone soon' that would get attacked, so club can't win.
If all that makes me sound as an apologist then so be it. But its in my make up to try to look at things from both sides. But I'm not impressed at all with what's going on, but that doesn't mean I'm going to have a go at fans who don't agree with my view, which is what I'm seeing more and more on here and its ugly. And its putting me off coming on here.
If there is one thing all Fulham fans need to do at the moment is keep a steady head, stay calm and be united.Be you a conspiracy theorist or not, we are all Fulham fans.
Well said MJ.
Coyw!
Oh dear, the worrying question raised above is Incompetence or Intent.
Surely not intent, there must be less painful ways of achieving the same end.
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 10:14:08 AM
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
No one can defend the current situation over the recruitment of the Head Coach but before that what decisions and influence has Rigg had:
- he could have replaced Symons last Spring or more sensibly over the summer
- he did refresh the squad and, unlike the revisionist views now being expressed, most on here thought he had done a good job
- he sacked Symons when Symons could not meet the target for the top six ambition
Again, I am not defending Rigg over the recruitment of the Head Coach but we had been going downhill under Jol and Magath and had been relegated with an aging squad before Rigg appeared on the scene.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 12:29:01 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 10:14:08 AM
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
No one can defend the current situation over the recruitment of the Head Coach but before that what decisions and influence has Rigg had:
- he could have replaced Symons last Spring or more sensibly over the summer
- he did refresh the squad and, unlike the revisionist views now being expressed, most on here thought he had done a good job
- he sacked Symons when Symons could not meet the target for the top six ambition
Again, I am not defending Rigg over the recruitment of the Head Coach but we had been going downhill under Jol and Magath and had been relegated with an aging squad before Rigg appeared on the scene.
but Rigg s not just appointing the new manager/coach he's having the final say on who we bought/buy I was yesterday told lots more than I could possibly put on here but rest assured Rigg is our big problem.
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
You and me both. It does seem that the vacuum left by the lack of news is being filled by some fairly wild conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to think of any sort of business in 'the real world' which would treat its customer-base as badly as FFC is currently treating theirs and still expect it to remain loyal to the brand.
As I've asked again and again WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT TO READ/HEAR?
No business/club will give a blow by blow account of a search or where failures in employing someone has happened.
Its true that the club/rigg/khan should have done something within last week or two to explain where we are, but Khan did use the programme recently.
But as soon as club put something out its ripped apart anyway so I suspect the club is in a bit of a siege mentality at the moment. The real personal attacks against some individuals is not going to help either in getting them to talk more.
If Rigg let's say had said every Monday 'we are working on things and hope to have someone soon' that would get attacked, so club can't win.
If all that makes me sound as an apologist then so be it. But its in my make up to try to look at things from both sides. But I'm not impressed at all with what's going on, but that doesn't mean I'm going to have a go at fans who don't agree with my view, which is what I'm seeing more and more on here and its ugly. And its putting me off coming on here.
If there is one thing all Fulham fans need to do at the moment is keep a steady head, stay calm and be united.Be you a conspiracy theorist or not, we are all Fulham fans.
MJG, It's Mike isn't it? I have seen you rightly say a few times that the club has made comments (in programme) and also, what do you expect them to say.
You are correct. But, what is happening now is that even the usually positive fans (I include myself in that) are very concerned. I've been reading our forums since Paul Thorpe started TFI and whilst its fair to say, most of those years have been good, I've never seen a groundswell quite like this.
I don't believe its sinister as that would not make sense, unless Shahid has just given us up as a bad loss, but do think its mismanagement of the highest order.
Don't forget, at the start of Shahid's reign, we had manager and Brede visit Jacksonville, we had that strange online thing with fans.
If ever something from the top was needed, its now. Some serious PR is needed right now. If not for us, surely the players
I really can't see how things could have gone much worse.
Relegation
Battle with further relegation
Battle with yet another relegation
Our big starlet sold
Our next two big things apparently leaving
No manager for 7 weeks
Transfer ban
Honestly, if a Brentford fan was playing as Fulham in Football Manager, he couldn't have done it better.
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
But surely this has nothing to do with a 'pseudo-American structure' , but is actually a structure which used in the vast majority of clubs throughout Europe and indeed was in place down the road at Stamford Bridge until Mourinho first took over. Frank Arnesen was Director of Football and served alongside a number of Head Coaches.
Of course you are right the concept of a Director of Football in a club allows continuity and is used in many European clubs - what is different at Fulham is that the Manager doesn't report to the owner. I think you find that even at Chelsea the manager always reported to the owner and that caused enormous tension when the Director of Football did the same thing. The NFL notion that there is a Chief Football Officer - who runs the football side of the operation and a Chief Executive - who runs the business apart from football is, I think, distinctly American. I tried to mark this out with the use of the word "pseudo" but that wasn't as successful as I hoped.
To MJG's repeated question: "What do people want to read/hear?" I would offer this: I would have
liked to have read or heard something that suggested that I could have confidence in the decision making of the owner and that he had the best interests of the Club at heart. With such a consistent record of errors of judgement reading or hearing no longer carry much weight. Now he has to act decisively. 45 days without a manager (is that right? or is it 46?) is no advert for decisive leadership by Rigg or Khan. I admit to really liking Kit and being incredibly grateful to him for putting some heart back into the place. We were the top scoring club in the Championship under his leadership (and yes, we also shipped masses!) and he was working hard to build confidence in the squad so that they could endure bad luck and still come out fighting. Our ability to score vanished when Kit left - except for some notable goals from number 44. We look frightened and at times disinterested. Khan has hidden behind other people. He has deflected the blame for the bad decisions - firing Kit before knowing his next move was a "numpty" decision. Unsettling the squad was bad for them and bad for the fans. I don't want to hear or read anything at this point. I want Khan to stand up and take responsibility and be decisive and show that he takes his responsibility as both owner and steward seriously.
I remember running into Fayed after a particularly miserable match during the Lawrie Sanchez year - and he stood on the steps of the Riverside stand and said: "That was sh*t. Sh*t! Who wants to watch that!" He was right. It was. And he did let it drift on too long...I never doubted his intention to deliver a good team - one that he could be proud of - that intention never wavered until he became ill at the end of his stewardship. (Our problem maybe that Fayed knew what "sh*t" looked like...based on what is served up in Jacksonville and at the Cottage it is clear that Khan knows the difference.) Time for Khan to actually be the Chairman for a little while until our situation improves. He can start by showing up at a game and actually staying for 90 minutes - rather than bolting at half-time.
I can understand the sacking of Symons. But what I don't get was the lack of foresight about appointing a new manager.
At the time I thought they had got it spot on, with the International break upon us, I was sure they already had someone lined up.
But no! There was a complete lack of vision and forward planning. Just a knee jerk reaction!
Do we really think the agenda now is to wind down the club? I for one don't think so. Just a useless management structure!
Quote from: Mighty Maik on December 27, 2015, 01:40:55 PM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
But surely this has nothing to do with a 'pseudo-American structure' , but is actually a structure which used in the vast majority of clubs throughout Europe and indeed was in place down the road at Stamford Bridge until Mourinho first took over. Frank Arnesen was Director of Football and served alongside a number of Head Coaches.
Of course you are right the concept of a Director of Football in a club allows continuity and is used in many European clubs - what is different at Fulham is that the Manager doesn't report to the owner. I think you find that even at Chelsea the manager always reported to the owner and that caused enormous tension when the Director of Football did the same thing. The NFL notion that there is a Chief Football Officer - who runs the football side of the operation and a Chief Executive - who runs the business apart from football is, I think, distinctly American. I tried to mark this out with the use of the word "pseudo" but that wasn't as successful as I hoped.
To MJG's repeated question: "What do people want to read/hear?" I would offer this: I would have
liked to have read or heard something that suggested that I could have confidence in the decision making of the owner and that he had the best interests of the Club at heart. With such a consistent record of errors of judgement reading or hearing no longer carry much weight. Now he has to act decisively. 45 days without a manager (is that right? or is it 46?) is no advert for decisive leadership by Rigg or Khan. I admit to really liking Kit and being incredibly grateful to him for putting some heart back into the place. We were the top scoring club in the Championship under his leadership (and yes, we also shipped masses!) and he was working hard to build confidence in the squad so that they could endure bad luck and still come out fighting. Our ability to score vanished when Kit left - except for some notable goals from number 44. We look frightened and at times disinterested. Khan has hidden behind other people. He has deflected the blame for the bad decisions - firing Kit before knowing his next move was a "numpty" decision. Unsettling the squad was bad for them and bad for the fans. I don't want to hear or read anything at this point. I want Khan to stand up and take responsibility and be decisive and show that he takes his responsibility as both owner and steward seriously.
I remember running into Fayed after a particularly miserable match during the Lawrie Sanchez year - and he stood on the steps of the Riverside stand and said: "That was sh*t. Sh*t! Who wants to watch that!" He was right. It was. And he did let it drift on too long...I never doubted his intention to deliver a good team - one that he could be proud of - that intention never wavered until he became ill at the end of his stewardship. (Our problem maybe that Fayed knew what "sh*t" looked like...based on what is served up in Jacksonville and at the Cottage it is clear that Khan knows the difference.) Time for Khan to actually be the Chairman for a little while until our situation improves. He can start by showing up at a game and actually staying for 90 minutes - rather than bolting at half-time.
You could have waited at least a couple of more messages to completely better my post
Quote from: Mighty Maik on December 27, 2015, 01:40:55 PM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 11:42:15 AM
But surely this has nothing to do with a 'pseudo-American structure' , but is actually a structure which used in the vast majority of clubs throughout Europe and indeed was in place down the road at Stamford Bridge until Mourinho first took over. Frank Arnesen was Director of Football and served alongside a number of Head Coaches.
Of course you are right the concept of a Director of Football in a club allows continuity and is used in many European clubs - what is different at Fulham is that the Manager doesn't report to the owner. I think you find that even at Chelsea the manager always reported to the owner and that caused enormous tension when the Director of Football did the same thing. The NFL notion that there is a Chief Football Officer - who runs the football side of the operation and a Chief Executive - who runs the business apart from football is, I think, distinctly American. I tried to mark this out with the use of the word "pseudo" but that wasn't as successful as I hoped.
To MJG's repeated question: "What do people want to read/hear?" I would offer this: I would have
liked to have read or heard something that suggested that I could have confidence in the decision making of the owner and that he had the best interests of the Club at heart. With such a consistent record of errors of judgement reading or hearing no longer carry much weight. Now he has to act decisively. 45 days without a manager (is that right? or is it 46?) is no advert for decisive leadership by Rigg or Khan. I admit to really liking Kit and being incredibly grateful to him for putting some heart back into the place. We were the top scoring club in the Championship under his leadership (and yes, we also shipped masses!) and he was working hard to build confidence in the squad so that they could endure bad luck and still come out fighting. Our ability to score vanished when Kit left - except for some notable goals from number 44. We look frightened and at times disinterested. Khan has hidden behind other people. He has deflected the blame for the bad decisions - firing Kit before knowing his next move was a "numpty" decision. Unsettling the squad was bad for them and bad for the fans. I don't want to hear or read anything at this point. I want Khan to stand up and take responsibility and be decisive and show that he takes his responsibility as both owner and steward seriously.
I remember running into Fayed after a particularly miserable match during the Lawrie Sanchez year - and he stood on the steps of the Riverside stand and said: "That was sh*t. Sh*t! Who wants to watch that!" He was right. It was. And he did let it drift on too long...I never doubted his intention to deliver a good team - one that he could be proud of - that intention never wavered until he became ill at the end of his stewardship. (Our problem maybe that Fayed knew what "sh*t" looked like...based on what is served up in Jacksonville and at the Cottage it is clear that Khan knows the difference.) Time for Khan to actually be the Chairman for a little while until our situation improves. He can start by showing up at a game and actually staying for 90 minutes - rather than bolting at half-time.
Quote from: BedsFFC on December 27, 2015, 01:27:44 PM
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 27, 2015, 09:48:16 AM
Quote from: MJG on December 27, 2015, 09:41:58 AM
Quote from: Tonywa on December 26, 2015, 11:09:36 PM
I like a bit of hyperbole myself, but worse than Clay and Bulstrode combined? Come, come.
agree, itsabad time both on and off the pitch, but nowhere near the problems we had.
Could both on and off situations be managed better? Of course they could. But I don't buy the conspiracy view that its being run down deliberately. Its bad decision after bad decision and also bad luck. Its football you see this time and time again, a series of things that leads club sometimes into a position where we are.
So I'm in the completely mismanaged camp and not the block of flats camp.
You and me both. It does seem that the vacuum left by the lack of news is being filled by some fairly wild conspiracy theories. I'm just trying to think of any sort of business in 'the real world' which would treat its customer-base as badly as FFC is currently treating theirs and still expect it to remain loyal to the brand.
As I've asked again and again WHAT DO PEOPLE WANT TO READ/HEAR?
No business/club will give a blow by blow account of a search or where failures in employing someone has happened.
Its true that the club/rigg/khan should have done something within last week or two to explain where we are, but Khan did use the programme recently.
But as soon as club put something out its ripped apart anyway so I suspect the club is in a bit of a siege mentality at the moment. The real personal attacks against some individuals is not going to help either in getting them to talk more.
If Rigg let's say had said every Monday 'we are working on things and hope to have someone soon' that would get attacked, so club can't win.
If all that makes me sound as an apologist then so be it. But its in my make up to try to look at things from both sides. But I'm not impressed at all with what's going on, but that doesn't mean I'm going to have a go at fans who don't agree with my view, which is what I'm seeing more and more on here and its ugly. And its putting me off coming on here.
If there is one thing all Fulham fans need to do at the moment is keep a steady head, stay calm and be united.Be you a conspiracy theorist or not, we are all Fulham fans.
MJG, It's Mike isn't it? I have seen you rightly say a few times that the club has made comments (in programme) and also, what do you expect them to say.
You are correct. But, what is happening now is that even the usually positive fans (I include myself in that) are very concerned. I've been reading our forums since Paul Thorpe started TFI and whilst its fair to say, most of those years have been good, I've never seen a groundswell quite like this.
I don't believe its sinister as that would not make sense, unless Shahid has just given us up as a bad loss, but do think its mismanagement of the highest order.
Don't forget, at the start of Shahid's reign, we had manager and Brede visit Jacksonville, we had that strange online thing with fans.
If ever something from the top was needed, its now. Some serious PR is needed right now. If not for us, surely the players
I really can't see how things could have gone much worse.
Relegation
Battle with further relegation
Battle with yet another relegation
Our big starlet sold
Our next two big things apparently leaving
No manager for 7 weeks
Transfer ban
Honestly, if a Brentford fan was playing as Fulham in Football Manager, he couldn't have done it better.
I dont disagree with anything you say there, do you not think I'm concerned about things?'
I have sent my views (seperate from my FST role...I'm still only a fan at heart) to the club on how I think they need to rectify the disconnect we are seeing between fans and the club, but any PR at the moment will be seen as cynical and not the right answers.
Mighty Maik wrote
"I would have
liked to have read or heard something that suggested that I could have confidence in the decision making of the owner and that he had the best interests of the Club at heart"
I'm really not sure how anyone could prduce something from Khan that will answer that. They can write, film, stand on the pitch and shout, and I dont believe that would answer any crtic. 'Its just PR' would be the call ;-)
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 12:29:01 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 10:14:08 AM
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
No one can defend the current situation over the recruitment of the Head Coach but before that what decisions and influence has Rigg had:
- he could have replaced Symons last Spring or more sensibly over the summer
- he did refresh the squad and, unlike the revisionist views now being expressed, most on here thought he had done a good job
- he sacked Symons when Symons could not meet the target for the top six ambition
Again, I am not defending Rigg over the recruitment of the Head Coach but we had been going downhill under Jol and Magath and had been relegated with an aging squad before Rigg appeared on the scene.
but Rigg s not just appointing the new manager/coach he's having the final say on who we bought/buy I was yesterday told lots more than I could possibly put on here but rest assured Rigg is our big problem.
I said that he refreshed the squad meaning he had a significant say in recruitment but I imagine the manager/Head Coach would have a veto.
Don't tease. Tell us what you think and heard. What else has he done to cause our rapid decline?
Quote from: BedsFFC on December 27, 2015, 01:27:44 PM
I really can't see how things could have gone much worse.
Relegation
Battle with further relegation
Battle with yet another relegation
Our big starlet sold
Our next two big things apparently leaving
No manager for 7 weeks
Transfer ban
Back-to-back relegation
Relegation to bottom tier
10 consecutive seasons of four figure home attendances (apart from v. Bris Rov 10,148 - we lost 0-4!)
Our big starlet sold (always! And even allowing for inflation we got a deal more for Roberts than we did Macdonald)
Planned merger with QPR
Plans and pictures of flats on CC.
All these have happened and each one is worse than what we are now experiencing.
Compared to some of the managers we have had in the, not even distant, past, 7 weeks without one is a bonus.
Quote from: cmg on December 27, 2015, 03:11:10 PM
Quote from: BedsFFC on December 27, 2015, 01:27:44 PM
I really can't see how things could have gone much worse.
Relegation
Battle with further relegation
Battle with yet another relegation
Our big starlet sold
Our next two big things apparently leaving
No manager for 7 weeks
Transfer ban
Back-to-back relegation
Relegation to bottom tier
10 consecutive seasons of four figure home attendances (apart from v. Bris Rov 10,148 - we lost 0-4!)
Our big starlet sold (always! And even allowing for inflation we got a deal more for Roberts than we did Macdonald)
Planned merger with QPR
Plans and pictures of flats on CC.
All these have happened and each one is worse than what we are now experiencing.
Compared to some of the managers we have had in the, not even distant, past, 7 weeks without one is a bonus.
Having been a supporter for 58 years I cannot agree that this is the worse it has ever been. The Clay, Bulstrode, Dein (don't ever forget his part in our near demise), Marler Estates and Cabra times were worse as we faced extinction and there was nothing any of us could do about it. Ironically the property crash and recession of the early 90s did for Marler and along with Jimmy and the board helped saved us.
Now, it feels worse, because we have had the resources and opportunities to build upon our success of 4/5 years ago and are progressively squandering them and the work of the Fayed era. Our demise is self inflicted which makes it feel ten times worse to all of us long suffering fans who never thought they would ever see Fulham back in the top flight until Fayed came along.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 12:29:01 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 10:14:08 AM
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
No one can defend the current situation over the recruitment of the Head Coach but before that what decisions and influence has Rigg had:
- he could have replaced Symons last Spring or more sensibly over the summer
- he did refresh the squad and, unlike the revisionist views now being expressed, most on here thought he had done a good job
- he sacked Symons when Symons could not meet the target for the top six ambition
Again, I am not defending Rigg over the recruitment of the Head Coach but we had been going downhill under Jol and Magath and had been relegated with an aging squad before Rigg appeared on the scene.
but Rigg s not just appointing the new manager/coach he's having the final say on who we bought/buy I was yesterday told lots more than I could possibly put on here but rest assured Rigg is our big problem.
I said that he refreshed the squad meaning he had a significant say in recruitment but I imagine the manager/Head Coach would have a veto.
Don't tease. Tell us what you think and heard. What else has he done to cause our rapid decline?
apprentice if I was person to person in your company I'd happily tell you what I was told but to put it on here would almost certainly get me into serious hot water
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 07:08:42 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 12:29:01 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 10:14:08 AM
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
No one can defend the current situation over the recruitment of the Head Coach but before that what decisions and influence has Rigg had:
- he could have replaced Symons last Spring or more sensibly over the summer
- he did refresh the squad and, unlike the revisionist views now being expressed, most on here thought he had done a good job
- he sacked Symons when Symons could not meet the target for the top six ambition
Again, I am not defending Rigg over the recruitment of the Head Coach but we had been going downhill under Jol and Magath and had been relegated with an aging squad before Rigg appeared on the scene.
but Rigg s not just appointing the new manager/coach he's having the final say on who we bought/buy I was yesterday told lots more than I could possibly put on here but rest assured Rigg is our big problem.
I said that he refreshed the squad meaning he had a significant say in recruitment but I imagine the manager/Head Coach would have a veto.
Don't tease. Tell us what you think and heard. What else has he done to cause our rapid decline?
apprentice if I was person to person in your company I'd happily tell you what I was told but to put it on here would almost certainly get me into serious hot water
Mike Rigg has been reported in the thread 'Mike Rigg on Christmas Eve' as saying the manager has the final say in buying and selling. So we seem to be getting conflicting stories.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 07:08:42 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 12:59:26 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on December 27, 2015, 12:29:01 PM
Quote from: bobbo on December 27, 2015, 10:14:08 AM
I heard only yesterday whilst at a game locally ( southern league ) from someone involved at the club ( where I was ) that whilst big mistakes were made before Rigg's appearance , that he is the cause of our rapid decline right now.
I can't name this person for obvious reasons but until about 18 months ago he was employed by Fulham as part of the coaching staff.
No one can defend the current situation over the recruitment of the Head Coach but before that what decisions and influence has Rigg had:
- he could have replaced Symons last Spring or more sensibly over the summer
- he did refresh the squad and, unlike the revisionist views now being expressed, most on here thought he had done a good job
- he sacked Symons when Symons could not meet the target for the top six ambition
Again, I am not defending Rigg over the recruitment of the Head Coach but we had been going downhill under Jol and Magath and had been relegated with an aging squad before Rigg appeared on the scene.
but Rigg s not just appointing the new manager/coach he's having the final say on who we bought/buy I was yesterday told lots more than I could possibly put on here but rest assured Rigg is our big problem.
I said that he refreshed the squad meaning he had a significant say in recruitment but I imagine the manager/Head Coach would have a veto.
Don't tease. Tell us what you think and heard. What else has he done to cause our rapid decline?
apprentice if I was person to person in your company I'd happily tell you what I was told but to put it on here would almost certainly get me into serious hot water
Mike Rigg has been reported in the thread 'Mike Rigg on Christmas Eve' as saying the manager has the final say in buying and selling. So we seem to be getting conflicting stories.
yeah I saw that also but not sure whether or not it would be concrete info, but that was nowhere near what I was told yesterday. And not directly reflecting on that subject either.