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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: The Swan on March 13, 2019, 08:50:26 PM

Title: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: The Swan on March 13, 2019, 08:50:26 PM
I know that he was on loan from Brighton but what a player.
He helped Brighton get promoted , he helped us get promoted and now he might help Sheffield United get promoted.
Its a shame he is not playing in our midfield.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: bog on March 13, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
I always rated Oli. Wont forget his block in added time in the penalty area in the closing seconds at Wembley or his pen at Boro 90+5.  :54:


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Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Southcoastffc on March 13, 2019, 09:17:35 PM
The consensus from most folk on message boards and sitting around me in the HE was that he is a decent Championship player but not more than that.  That's surely why Brighton let him go.  IMO it'd be looking at history through rose-tinted spectacles to suggest otherwise, but if he makes it to the Prem and does well, very good luck to him.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Woolly Mammoth on March 13, 2019, 09:40:42 PM
He would have provided more value for money and commitment than some of the imports that we have been lumbered with at high cost, he had the right attitude.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: @jolslover on March 13, 2019, 10:34:13 PM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 13, 2019, 09:17:35 PM
The consensus from most folk on message boards and sitting around me in the HE was that he is a decent Championship player but not more than that.  That's surely why Brighton let him go.  IMO it'd be looking at history through rose-tinted spectacles to suggest otherwise, but if he makes it to the Prem and does well, very good luck to him.

Agree
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: ALG01 on March 13, 2019, 10:42:10 PM
I thought he was an OK squad player in the championship and not good enough for the Prem. But given the choice between him and some of our high cost midfild signings, Norwood is a better choice IMO.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: HV71 on March 13, 2019, 10:47:47 PM
As Woolly says he was very committed ( particularly given that he was only on loan ) That puts him leaps ahead of some of the players this season. He also had a range of passes and wasn't afraid to put his body on the line or getting stuck in . Shame he had to go given that some of his qualities have been sorely missed this campaign
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Statto on March 13, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
It sums up everything wrong with Tony Khan's approach to transfers this summer. Norwood is English, cheap and low profile - exactly the kind of player Mike Rigg would have signed. That is anathema to TK, who preferred to smash our transfer record on an exciting, new, exotic French stats-based target, Anguissa.

Now I still suspect Anguissa has more potential and inherent talent than Norwood, but I don't think anyone could dispute that Norwood would have been at least as effective as Anguissa has been this season, probably better, and would have had the added bonus of not disrupting the team we had last season.

The same goes for Button (vs Fabri, and arguably even Rico, who's looking less and less useful as the season wears on) and Kalas (vs MLM) and Piazon (vs Vietto). 
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: @jolslover on March 13, 2019, 11:03:59 PM
Quote from: Statto on March 13, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
It sums up everything wrong with Tony Khan's approach to transfers this summer. Norwood is English, cheap and low profile - exactly the kind of player Mike Rigg would have signed. That is anathema to TK, who preferred to smash our transfer record on an exciting, new, exotic French stats-based target, Anguissa.

Now I still suspect Anguissa has more potential and inherent talent than Norwood, but I don't think anyone could dispute that Norwood would have been at least as effective as Anguissa has been this season, probably better, and would have had the added bonus of not disrupting the team we had last season.

The same goes for Button (vs Fabri, and arguably even Rico, who's looking less and less useful as the season wears on) and Kalas (vs MLM) and Piazon (vs Vietto). 

Later two are different from the first two examples given as Le March was cheaper than Kalas (cost 3.6m whereas Chelsea wanted 6m for Kalas) and Piazon vs. Vietto is hard to compare as perm vs. loan. But am sure Vietto on loan was cheaper than signing Piazon permanently. I also think Vietto is probably better than Piazon. Kalas vs. Le March I'd probably go with Kalas but not for almost double the price. I think Rico is head and shoulders above Button aswell.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: The Rational Fan on March 13, 2019, 11:41:29 PM
I cannot see how Slavisa is not to blame for letting Norwood go, he was telling papers early August we need cover for McDonald and Mitro; if he thought Norwood and Piazon were cover he would have said that.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Penfold on March 13, 2019, 11:54:09 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 13, 2019, 11:41:29 PM
I cannot see how Slavisa is not to blame for letting Norwood go, he was telling papers early August we need cover for McDonald and Mitro; if he thought Norwood and Piazon were cover he would have said that.

Probably because he had no say over the matter.

Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: The Rational Fan on March 14, 2019, 01:01:42 AM
Quote from: Penfold on March 13, 2019, 11:54:09 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 13, 2019, 11:41:29 PM
I cannot see how Slavisa is not to blame for letting Norwood go, he was telling papers early August we need cover for McDonald and Mitro; if he thought Norwood and Piazon were cover he would have said that.

Probably because he had no say over the matter.

TK liked Norwood as a loan which was succesful, but you think that Slavisa couldn't talk TK into buying him as a homegrown player for £2m. Norwood's stats are awesome for that price, plus you may have noticed TK bought Mitrovoic and Markovoic because of recommendations.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: the nutflush on March 14, 2019, 01:37:17 AM
Quote from: bog on March 13, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
I always rated Oli. Wont forget his block in added time in the penalty area in the closing seconds at Wembley or his pen at Boro 90+5.  :54:


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Two great moments from a good honest contributor.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: colinwhite on March 14, 2019, 05:48:19 AM
Oli is a good player but wasnt getting in our championship side. We ,like Brighton and others  before ,deemed him not good enough for the premiership. Could he have done a job ?maybe ,but if we had hung ours hopes on him people really would have been up in arms ,before the season got started.
Piazon and kallas ? Understand the sentiment Statto. Perhaps no worse than Vietto or Le marchand granted ,but would have cost us alot more to buy than them.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 06:34:50 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on March 14, 2019, 05:48:19 AM
Oli is a good player but wasnt getting in our championship side. We ,like Brighton and others  before ,deemed him not good enough for the premiership. Could he have done a job ?maybe ,but if we had hung ours hopes on him people really would have been up in arms ,before the season got started.
Piazon and kallas ? Understand the sentiment Statto. Perhaps no worse than Vietto or Le marchand granted ,but would have cost us alot more to buy than them.

All those players already played a role in the squad though, but I remember on here the  general consensus was that they weren't good enough for the Prem, and we needed to get better in, and people seemed confident that we would. I was disappointed we didn't sign them, and wondered if we'd regret it.

I was criticised when I said I felt sorry for Kalas, missing out on promotion with us after losing his place to Odoi, but people said  he chose to sign a new contract with Chelsea and  doesn't deserve your sympathy, but I donn't know   how much choice he had, if Fulham decided he was too expensive to buy, Piazzon too.

I don't know what the point is in keep going over these things, reopening wounds.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: hovewhite on March 14, 2019, 07:31:17 AM
Quote from: Statto on March 13, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
It sums up everything wrong with Tony Khan's approach to transfers this summer. Norwood is English, cheap and low profile - exactly the kind of player Mike Rigg would have signed. That is anathema to TK, who preferred to smash our transfer record on an exciting, new, exotic French stats-based target, Anguissa.

Now I still suspect Anguissa has more potential and inherent talent than Norwood, but I don't think anyone could dispute that Norwood would have been at least as effective as Anguissa has been this season, probably better, and would have had the added bonus of not disrupting the team we had last season.

The same goes for Button (vs Fabri, and arguably even Rico, who's looking less and less useful as the season wears on) and Kalas (vs MLM) and Piazon (vs Vietto). 
[/quote statto,your spot on .
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: The Old Count on March 14, 2019, 08:19:09 AM
Quote from: @jolslover on March 13, 2019, 11:03:59 PM
Quote from: Statto on March 13, 2019, 10:57:39 PM
It sums up everything wrong with Tony Khan's approach to transfers this summer. Norwood is English, cheap and low profile - exactly the kind of player Mike Rigg would have signed. That is anathema to TK, who preferred to smash our transfer record on an exciting, new, exotic French stats-based target, Anguissa.

Now I still suspect Anguissa has more potential and inherent talent than Norwood, but I don't think anyone could dispute that Norwood would have been at least as effective as Anguissa has been this season, probably better, and would have had the added bonus of not disrupting the team we had last season.

The same goes for Button (vs Fabri, and arguably even Rico, who's looking less and less useful as the season wears on) and Kalas (vs MLM) and Piazon (vs Vietto). 

Later two are different from the first two examples given as Le March was cheaper than Kalas (cost 3.6m whereas Chelsea wanted 6m for Kalas) and Piazon vs. Vietto is hard to compare as perm vs. loan. But am sure Vietto on loan was cheaper than signing Piazon permanently. I also think Vietto is probably better than Piazon. Kalas vs. Le March I'd probably go with Kalas but not for almost double the price. I think Rico is head and shoulders above Button aswell.

This is spot on.  Also it is not inconceivable that one or two of Norwood and the others mentioned might have raised their games to another level in the Prem given the chance. Much like some of the Cardiff players this year and Brighton and Bournemouth players in previous years.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 08:41:00 AM
Fabri is looking weak as a keeper - not as good as Betts.

Teams like Cardiff, Bournmouth and Brighton, sho that it is the team that's important.

But Kalas, Norwood, Piazzon, Targett were all loans.Were all attempts made to sign them? Should we have paid any price? Opinions were divided at the time, I think.

Slavisa chose to play most of our new players immediately,when he could have introduced them slowly, but obviously didn't have confidence in the players we had.

People used to say that Ream and Odoi could never play in the Prem - but they have regularly, and our goals conceded have been awful - but is it just their fault. In some respects they have done well considering, but could they have  performed better with some decent defenders and defensive midfielder alongside them. They make errors, but  are under a lot of pressure which has just got worse as the season unfolded, and their confidence  got more fragile- as have our players generally.

But that second half at home to Brighton,  has shown, frustratingly, what our players are capable of.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Statto on March 14, 2019, 09:07:22 AM
Quote from: @jolslover on March 13, 2019, 11:03:59 PM
Later two are different from the first two examples given as Le March was cheaper than Kalas (cost 3.6m whereas Chelsea wanted 6m for Kalas) and Piazon vs. Vietto is hard to compare as perm vs. loan. But am sure Vietto on loan was cheaper than signing Piazon permanently. I also think Vietto is probably better than Piazon. Kalas vs. Le March I'd probably go with Kalas but not for almost double the price. I think Rico is head and shoulders above Button aswell.

If the difference between Kalas and MLM was £2.4m we'd have been better off going for Kalas, surely. Clearly money wasn't a limitation, and in case we'd have had a lot more to throw around if we'd bought Norwood for £2.5m instead of Anguissa for £25m. Also if certain stories about the Seri/MLM deal are true, MLM cost a lot more than £6m anyway.

As for Piazon, I'm sure we could have loaned him as we have done with Vietto, if preferred, and probably for less in wages/loan fee.

I agree Rico is better than Button but wonder, what was the off-pitch impact of swapping a familiar face with a new one who also doesn't speak English (or even French)? In any case Fabri for Button looks a pointless trade and one on which we made a net loss of about £2m.

Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Southcoastffc on March 14, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Point of order, Max Le Marchant cost very much more than £3.6m. Between 4 and 5 times that.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Statto on March 14, 2019, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 14, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Point of order, Max Le Marchant cost very much more than £3.6m. Between 4 and 5 times that.

I tried to acknowledge that above but it's unconfirmed, isn't it. And as discussed previously it's also a bit misleading because it seems that what's essentially alleged to have happened is Nice said to Fulham, "if you pay us £10m more for MLM than his market value, then we'll let you have Seri for £10m less than his value." 
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: snarks on March 14, 2019, 09:56:36 AM
I would much rather we had kept and played StefJo in the premier rather than Norwood, Similarly Kalas would have been the better signing as a RCB. Still that's why I'm on the terraces paying to watch rather than in the dugout being paid to watch.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 10:06:52 AM
Have we actually sold StefJo to WBA?

I was disappointed that he went, but the few times he played he was generally heavily criticised, but did he get a fair chance. Surely, his commitment, work rate and stamina were worth something to the team?
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: toshes mate on March 14, 2019, 10:13:04 AM
Quote from: Statto on March 14, 2019, 09:48:04 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 14, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Point of order, Max Le Marchant cost very much more than £3.6m. Between 4 and 5 times that.

I tried to acknowledge that above but it's unconfirmed, isn't it. And as discussed previously it's also a bit misleading because it seems that what's essentially alleged to have happened is Nice said to Fulham, "if you pay us £10m more for MLM than his market value, then we'll let you have Seri for £10m less than his value." 
Leaving aside the exact amount of the adjuster between the two players that is apparently what is alleged to have happened in order to avoid payments due (by Nice?) to Seri's former clubs and it is now subject to intended legal actions by those clubs to recover the amounts due to them.  It calls into question what MLM's and Seri's true transfer prices are and were.

On the subject of Norwood, and indeed most of the loanees from last season, I don't believe any of them would have been inferior to what we have witnessed this season from the team perspective.  As commented by others it is the way the team has failed to gel that has cost us dearly this season and I feel there are a multitude of errors behind that not least the failure to recruit or retain key players from that promotion team.  Kalas for example is now on the radar of both Rangers and Celtic as a likely summer signing unless Bristol City decide to buy him.  Had we started with last season's team with the addition of a decent PL quality goalkeeper, centre half, central defensive midfielder, and back up striker, we may have achieved considerably more points than we have done, not to mention the fact we would have had money in the bank to bolster any deficiencies in the January window.   The team would also have kick started itself rather than needing a long period of introductions and understandings that might never come to a satisfactory conclusion (which is what we have had to endure).  It is always wise to stick with the devil you know unless you know exactly what you are doing. 
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: toshes mate on March 14, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 10:06:52 AM
Have we actually sold StefJo to WBA?
He is on loan to WBA.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: The Rational Fan on March 14, 2019, 10:22:19 AM
Quote from: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 10:06:52 AM
Have we actually sold StefJo to WBA?

I was disappointed that he went, but the few times he played he was generally heavily criticised, but did he get a fair chance. Surely, his commitment, work rate and stamina were worth something to the team?

StefJo is very a much needed squad player if we have any chance to get promoted. "The Championship" is such a long season we'll need more players than this year, we need 2 players in each position plus an extra utlity players ideally Odoi, Johansen and Kamara. If we have 22 players better than Odoi, StefJo and Kamara, I think we can go up.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: filham on March 14, 2019, 10:27:41 AM
Sure that Norewood would have proved useful in this relegation situation, certainly more use than Anuissa has been, He would be a good signing to help stabilise things next season.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 11:02:57 AM
Quote from: filham on March 14, 2019, 10:27:41 AM
Sure that Norewood would have proved useful in this relegation situation, certainly more use than Anuissa has been, He would be a good signing to help stabilise things next season.

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I think he could have done a good job this season - certainly one who would help us in the Championsip.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Milo on March 14, 2019, 11:08:32 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on March 14, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 10:06:52 AM
Have we actually sold StefJo to WBA?
He is on loan to WBA.

Free agent in summer
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Sting of the North on March 14, 2019, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: Milo on March 14, 2019, 11:08:32 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on March 14, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
Quote from: RaySmith on March 14, 2019, 10:06:52 AM
Have we actually sold StefJo to WBA?
He is on loan to WBA.

Free agent in summer

Unless the club use their option to extend.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: the nutflush on March 14, 2019, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on March 14, 2019, 09:09:58 AM
Point of order, Max Le Marchant cost very much more than £3.6m. Between 4 and 5 times that.

Could come back to haunt us in more ways than one as this transfer is being investigated. Fancy paying that much for MLM. What a frickin disaster.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: spikey norman on March 14, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 14, 2019, 01:01:42 AM
Quote from: Penfold on March 13, 2019, 11:54:09 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on March 13, 2019, 11:41:29 PM
I cannot see how Slavisa is not to blame for letting Norwood go, he was telling papers early August we need cover for McDonald and Mitro; if he thought Norwood and Piazon were cover he would have said that.

Probably because he had no say over the matter.

TK liked Norwood as a loan which was succesful, but you think that Slavisa couldn't talk TK into buying him as a homegrown player for £2m. Norwood's stats are awesome for that price, plus you may have noticed TK bought Mitrovoic and Markovoic because of recommendations.


We were interested in buying Norwood in the January 18 window but Brighton wanted between £5 and £6 million for him which ended our interest.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Statto on March 14, 2019, 03:39:56 PM
Maybe worth noting that Kalas is probably the best defender in the Championship's 3rd best defence at the moment, and Norwood is playing as DM sitting in front of the 2nd best defence. 
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Stoneleigh Loyalist on March 14, 2019, 04:43:06 PM
No one has mentioned Norwood's  brilliant stop at the end of the Wembley game when he threw himself in front of  a goal bound shot.
Match winning at the time and  the sort of spirit which has been missing all season.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: ffcne on March 14, 2019, 04:47:13 PM
Quote from: bog on March 13, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
I always rated Oli. Wont forget his block in added time in the penalty area in the closing seconds at Wembley or his pen at Boro 90+5.  :54:


092.gif

Great afternoon at the Boro. 95th winner from the spot .
Oh Happy days.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Woolly Mammoth on March 14, 2019, 05:13:06 PM
Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on March 14, 2019, 04:43:06 PM
No one has mentioned Norwood's  brilliant stop at the end of the Wembley game when he threw himself in front of  a goal bound shot.
Match winning at the time and  the sort of spirit which has been missing all season.

I shall never forget that moment, something that would not have picked up on Khans stats.
Title: Re: Why did we let Oliver Norwood go
Post by: Woolly Mammoth on March 14, 2019, 05:17:10 PM
Quote from: ffcne on March 14, 2019, 04:47:13 PM
Quote from: bog on March 13, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
I always rated Oli. Wont forget his block in added time in the penalty area in the closing seconds at Wembley or his pen at Boro 90+5.  :54:


092.gif

Great afternoon at the Boro. 95th winner from the spot .
Oh Happy days.

He is worth two of some of the recruits the owners son brought on huge wages last Summer.
Because the Computer said yes.