A lot has been said about retaining the players for next season in the Championship.
Whilst I would agree this would be good for a Championship campaign and may lead to us making a push for the playoffs again we will be in the same position we are this season with a squad that is not good enough for the Premier League.
The whole defensive unit has proved that it is not Prem quality. I think we need to start to rebuild the squad with the target of promotion in two to three seasons and sign players that can make it in the Prem. We have been too reliant on loan players in the Championship and even in the Prem this season.
Cairney has struggled, Sess is not quite ready and the goals from Mitro have dried up.
One of our outstanding players this campaign has been Chambers and yesterday we had 5 loan players on the pitch at one time. This is not a model way to run a team.
"The whole defensive unit has proved that it is not Prem quality. " True. But we're not in the Prem next year and we will not attract Prem quality players. Our main problem this season was the disastrous start with a ramshackle defence of those who weren't injured and hadn't played together previously. IMO, that undermined confidence and we have collapsed like a house of cards. Stability and continuity are key. Fingers crossed that we get off to a sound start next season.
I bet if you asked the Head of recruitment (you know who) he will tell you he always recruits with the future in mind so God help us during any rebuilding!
In general I agree!
Agree entirely with Southcoastffc. Most of our players have the inherent quality, just lack organisation, tactics, familiarity etc.
In defence, IMO Mawson is definitely good enough at CB, and Bryan, Odoi and the Sessegnons could do a job at FB. Nordvelt and even MLM are still unproven. I'd like to see is get Kalas back on loan next year, if he isn't signed by a newly-promoted Bristol, and even consider making him permanent if we come back up. Otherwise, OK yes we'll probably need to sign another quality CB if/when we come back up, but that's unavoidable - as Southcoastffc says, I can't see us attracting (or affording) a good PL quality CB if we're in the Championship next year.
We have a Championship Squad capable of getting automatic promotion into the Premier League that should be FFC's first, second and third priority.
Next Season, we can leave the Championship with the "Spine of a Premier League Team". Our central midfield is filled with individuals that are definately premier league quality and after a year of playing together should be quite a lethal combinations of players (Anguissa, Seri & Cairney), with central defender Mawson behind them and central defender Mitrovoic in front of them.
The reason we had so much trouble this season, is we were upgrade "Spine Area of the Team" such as goalkeeper, central defensive, central midfield and buying our central forward. Next time, we go up we need to upgrade two FBs, two wingers and a central defensive stopper plus a back-up striker, which would be so much quicker to integrate than two CB, two CMs, two FBs and two wingers.
Don't think a big clearout is the awnser,as stated we have a squad to go straight back up.
Quote from: Statto on March 31, 2019, 11:44:09 AM
Agree entirely with Southcoastffc. Most of our players have the inherent quality, just lack organisation, tactics, familiarity etc.
In defence, IMO Mawson is definitely good enough at CB, and Bryan, Odoi and the Sessegnons could do a job at FB. Nordvelt and even MLM are still unproven. I'd like to see is get Kalas back on loan next year, if he isn't signed by a newly-promoted Bristol, and even consider making him permanent if we come back up. Otherwise, OK yes we'll probably need to sign another quality CB if/when we come back up, but that's unavoidable - as Southcoastffc says, I can't see us attracting (or affording) a good PL quality CB if we're in the Championship next year.
Mawson is good enough, when we played we only lost two games against "non-top six sides" out of nine games. And in the last five games he played against "non-top six sides" (Leceister, West Ham, Wolves, Newcastle and Hudderfield) we only conceeded four goals and lost only one.
If we can get this backline working with Mawson leading it with an established combination midfield in front of the backline, then we may only need one other equally good defender to make us solid even in case of one injury.
Sorry for this wake up call. If we keep this squad we will go down or at least be bottom 6.
All the shortcomings remain and the physicality of the championship will rip us to shreds.
We have two hopeless keepers and need to believe that betts will remain fit or give rodak, who i heard has been good this season a chance.
The spine of our team is non existent, anguisa and seri will simply not cope with the pace and physicality.
We need the same type of signings for next season as we should have got for this one. Thinking the newcomers save for chambers and babel are remotely good enough is cloud cuckoo land territory.
We need to sort the manager first, then get TK to move aside, then assemble a proper fit for purpose squad.
Maybe its because i watched a class of '92 documentary the other day but would like to see us try and focus on blooding some youngsters next year, even if it meant we languished in the championship for a couple of seasons. Would love to see us be renowned for a club that always had exciting youngsters coming through all the time with high quality experience around them. For example id like to see fossey or s.sess over christie. Maybe it would be football suicide but just a thought given how much of a downer this season has been.
On another note, if Mitro is here next year I would be very surprised, very excited but undoubtedly disappointed for him as he looks ready to make the next step up/play in europe. Don't see us losing any money on him though
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Quote from: hongkongfulham on March 31, 2019, 01:06:59 PM
Maybe its because i watched a class of '92 documentary the other day but would like to see us try and focus on blooding some youngsters next year, even if it meant we languished in the championship for a couple of seasons. Would love to see us be renowned for a club that always had exciting youngsters coming through all the time with high quality experience around them. For example id like to see fossey or s.sess over christie. Maybe it would be football suicide but just a thought given how much of a downer this season has been.
On another note, if Mitro is here next year I would be very surprised, very excited but undoubtedly disappointed for him as he looks ready to make the next step up/play in europe. Don't see us losing any money on him though
If there was a proper structured approach to build a team based on younger players, I would be for that, but we would need the correct quality, not what happened last time. I would lift the absurd age restriction on signing players because a couple of seasoned pros would help. We also need to rid ourselves of the insane transfer methodology.
Quote from: ALG01 on March 31, 2019, 01:14:34 PM
1500.gifQuote from: hongkongfulham on March 31, 2019, 01:06:59 PM
Maybe its because i watched a class of '92 documentary the other day but would like to see us try and focus on blooding some youngsters next year, even if it meant we languished in the championship for a couple of seasons. Would love to see us be renowned for a club that always had exciting youngsters coming through all the time with high quality experience around them. For example id like to see fossey or s.sess over christie. Maybe it would be football suicide but just a thought given how much of a downer this season has been.
On another note, if Mitro is here next year I would be very surprised, very excited but undoubtedly disappointed for him as he looks ready to make the next step up/play in europe. Don't see us losing any money on him though
If there was a proper structured approach to build a team based on younger players, I would be for that, but we would need the correct quality, not what happened last time. I would lift the absurd age restriction on signing players because a couple of seasoned pros would help. We also need to rid ourselves of the insane transfer methodology.
Absolutely spot on.
Quote from: ALG01 on March 31, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
Sorry for this wake up call. If we keep this squad we will go down or at least be bottom 6.
We were arguably the best team in that division last year, at worst the third best, and have only lost Targett and Fredericks from the staring XI since then. In their place we've acquired Christie and Bryan. Are you saying those two are so far behind Fredo and Targett that they've turned a top 2/3 team into a bottom 3-6 team?
Quote from: Statto on March 31, 2019, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on March 31, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
Sorry for this wake up call. If we keep this squad we will go down or at least be bottom 6.
We were arguably the best team in that division last year, at worst the third best, and have only lost Targett and Fredericks from the staring XI since then. In their place we've acquired Christie and Bryan. Are you saying those two are so far behind Fredo and Targett that they've turned a top 2/3 team into a bottom 3-6 team?
I am saying slav was a genius, you forgot the playerscwe brought in a relly dreadful or sick nd we do not have a Dof that is fit for purpose. I havent been wrong in four years i think we are in big big trouble with this sub standard selection.
Quote from: ALG01 on April 01, 2019, 01:19:20 AM
Quote from: Statto on March 31, 2019, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on March 31, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
Sorry for this wake up call. If we keep this squad we will go down or at least be bottom 6.
We were arguably the best team in that division last year, at worst the third best, and have only lost Targett and Fredericks from the staring XI since then. In their place we've acquired Christie and Bryan. Are you saying those two are so far behind Fredo and Targett that they've turned a top 2/3 team into a bottom 3-6 team?
I am saying slav was a genius, you forgot the playerscwe brought in a relly dreadful or sick nd we do not have a Dof that is fit for purpose. I havent been wrong in four years i think we are in big big trouble with this sub standard selection.
I dispute whether Slavisa was a genius, his defining characteristic seems to be most players play terrible for the first four months under him, every fan blames recruitment and then they improve dramatically. Tom Cairney followed this model and Anguissa is showing signs of following this model. If you think these players are rubbish, most of these players were internationals for a top 70 nation before joining Fulham.
Tony Khan overpays for quality players a bit (i.e. >£2.1 million), but equally has done very well buying players under £2.1 million. I think part of Fulham recruitment problem is players above £2.1 million have bigger clubs chasing them, and they do stats and scouting better than fulham fc. Plus in generally, i also think premier league players cost much more than anyone imagines, especially if young.
My opinion is our central midfield, central defence and goalkeepers are stronger than 17/18, plus our front three is much stronger than the first half of 17/18 and out left back is stronger defensively that the first half of 17/18. While at Right Back, we have six options next season Christie, S.Sess, Fossey, Odoi, Drameh or Cisse, one of whom maybe better than Fredricks. Plus, if we find we are overloaded in one position, we can sell during the winter transfer window and buy where we are weaker.
Importantly, next season may not be a strong season in the Championship, as Norwich, Leeds and WBA play go up, with Cardiff or Huddersfield going down, plus Aston Villa and Middlesbrough getting massive cuts in parchate payments. Leaving only Sheffield United as the only remaining team with goal difference above 11 goals, which is what mitrovoic should be worth over an average striker.
The whoscored stats also indicate that the way we played against ManCity would have likely resulted in less than a goal per goal in the Championship. It may surprise people, but according to the stats our defensive should be ok, but the biggest question mark is can we double the number of goals scored per game next season (especially as we are losing Schullre and you cannot rely on one player for goals).
Who exactly has improved DRAMATICALLY after four months. In my opinion not Rico, Fabri, Anguissa, Fonte, Vietto, La Marchand, Cisse, Fosu-Mensah, Seri, Schurrie to name but a few. That's very nearly a whole team. Not one of them has any passion or genuine desire, mental strength or punches their weight. Poor judgement to sign any of them. As for Tony Khan, I cannot see how he is worthy of the job title he has. Let alone being mentioned in the same post as Slavisa Jokanovic.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on April 01, 2019, 03:30:31 AM
Who exactly has improved DRAMATICALLY after four months. In my opinion not Rico, Fabri, Anguissa, Fonte, Vietto, La Marchand, Cisse, Fosu-Mensah, Seri, Schurrie to name but a few. That's very nearly a whole team. Not one of them has any passion or genuine desire, mental strength or punches their weight. Poor judgement to sign any of them. As for Tony Khan, I cannot see how he is worthy of the job title he has. Let alone being mentioned in the same post as Slavisa Jokanovic.
Players under Slavisa that improved after a few month or even a year include Tom Cairney, Tim Ream, Dennis Odoi, Fredricks and McDonald. This year Chambers and Anguissa followed the trend by getting worse the day they joined Fulham and then improve after a few months (granted Anguissa's improvement is only two good games so far and he is not as good as last season even then).
Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 01, 2019, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on April 01, 2019, 03:30:31 AM
Who exactly has improved DRAMATICALLY after four months. In my opinion not Rico, Fabri, Anguissa, Fonte, Vietto, La Marchand, Cisse, Fosu-Mensah, Seri, Schurrie to name but a few. That's very nearly a whole team. Not one of them has any passion or genuine desire, mental strength or punches their weight. Poor judgement to sign any of them. As for Tony Khan, I cannot see how he is worthy of the job title he has. Let alone being mentioned in the same post as Slavisa Jokanovic.
Players under Slavisa that improved after a few month or even a year include Tom Cairney, Tim Ream, Dennis Odoi, Fredricks and McDonald. This year Chambers and Anguissa followed the trend by getting worse the day they joined Fulham and then improve after a few months (granted Anguissa's improvement is only two good games so far and he is not as good as last season even then).
Where is there any improvement, may I point out where we are positioned in the League, which tells you more about how poor these players are than any other reason, we do not just lose games, we surrender them.
When Slav was sacked, we were 3 points below safety, now we are currently 17 points below safety.
We should not sign loanees as this was the mistake we have made before. After promotion we had only a dozen or so players as all the loan players went back to their clubs. Should we bounce back with a full quota of loanees we will be in the same position of having to sign nearly half a squad . We need to sign permanently players who would go up with us . The Wolves model has worked for them perfectly.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on April 01, 2019, 03:48:44 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on April 01, 2019, 03:42:25 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on April 01, 2019, 03:30:31 AM
Who exactly has improved DRAMATICALLY after four months. In my opinion not Rico, Fabri, Anguissa, Fonte, Vietto, La Marchand, Cisse, Fosu-Mensah, Seri, Schurrie to name but a few. That's very nearly a whole team. Not one of them has any passion or genuine desire, mental strength or punches their weight. Poor judgement to sign any of them. As for Tony Khan, I cannot see how he is worthy of the job title he has. Let alone being mentioned in the same post as Slavisa Jokanovic.
Players under Slavisa that improved after a few month or even a year include Tom Cairney, Tim Ream, Dennis Odoi, Fredricks and McDonald. This year Chambers and Anguissa followed the trend by getting worse the day they joined Fulham and then improve after a few months (granted Anguissa's improvement is only two good games so far and he is not as good as last season even then).
Where is there any improvement, may I point out where we are positioned in the League, which tells you more about how poor these players are than any other reason, we do not just lose games, we surrender them.
When Slav was sacked, we were 3 points below safety, now we are currently 17 points below safety.
I meant they improved from their first season in the championship to their second season in the championship.
Totally agree grandad
Quote from: ALG01 on April 01, 2019, 01:19:20 AM
Quote from: Statto on March 31, 2019, 10:14:55 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on March 31, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
Sorry for this wake up call. If we keep this squad we will go down or at least be bottom 6.
We were arguably the best team in that division last year, at worst the third best, and have only lost Targett and Fredericks from the staring XI since then. In their place we've acquired Christie and Bryan. Are you saying those two are so far behind Fredo and Targett that they've turned a top 2/3 team into a bottom 3-6 team?
I am saying slav was a genius, you forgot the playerscwe brought in a relly dreadful or sick nd we do not have a Dof that is fit for purpose. I havent been wrong in four years i think we are in big big trouble with this sub standard selection.
Regardless of Slav, it was still the players that took the field. Almost all of them are still here. I would also argue, as others did already, that the rest of the squad is substantially stronger now than last year. Sure, there are sometimes fine lines between a successful season and an unsuccessful one, but I don't understand how anyone can think that the players are not good enough for the Championship. Then again, I never thought Slav was a genius, but only a very good coach with principles that paid out over time. Big mistake to sack him, but I don't think that he is the only one capable of getting this squad to perform against the half decent opposition that we'll face each week in the Championship.
If the current coaching set up is not good enough to make a Championship top team of these players next year then we need better coaches. Getting new players will not help, since we will never afford substantially better players while in the Championship. Now, we may end up with a lot of new players anyway, depending on how many are allowed to leave, but in my opinion retaining as many as possible from the current squad gives us by far the best chance to bounce straight back up. Also, if we retain most players it does not matter one bit whether our DOF is deemed fit for purpose or not.
Quote from: hovewhite on March 31, 2019, 12:44:45 PM
Don't think a big clearout is the awnser,as stated we have a squad to go straight back up.
Well it certainly didn't seem that way at the end of the match on Saturday, we failed to score, we didn't have a shot on target, we didn't win a corner and I am not sure that we ever won a tackle. Remember this was at the Cottage.
Seemed to me we should get rid of the whole squad a rebuild from scratch.
Quote from: ALG01 on March 31, 2019, 01:05:11 PM
Sorry for this wake up call. If we keep this squad we will go down or at least be bottom 6.
All the shortcomings remain and the physicality of the championship will rip us to shreds.
We need to sort the manager first, then get TK to move aside, then assemble a proper fit for purpose squad.
I believe you are right about the wake up call.
In SJ's first half season there was little expression of what he achieved in his first whole season, and that was because, in the latter, he concentrated on partnerships, the art of getting players on the same wavelengths and confident the hard work applied to the system would deliver results when it came together properly. In his first whole season togetherness came in sporadic bursts until settling down to the run in for the play off places.
It was a similar situation in season two where the departures of Malone and Aluko presented difficulties on both flanks, a key to SJ's tactical direction to be able to attack from anywhere on the pitch. The most impactful solution came via Targett who slotted into the regime straight away. Mitro was a bonus not just a goalscorer but as a link player in possession football.
Season three posed problems all over the pitch because few partnerships appeared to develop until Chambers was used to make midfield more dynamic and indicated that breathing space could be achieved via the flanks if there was perseverance with that model. Sadly SJ was gone before that could even begin to be explored. I have not seen evidence of partnerships properly developing since Ranieri arrived and there has been little evidence of Parker achieving the same. Given that the central spine of this team will struggle in the Championship because it is neither robust or cohesive.
For me it isn't about the quality of individuals. Football is a team sport and unless you build a team and protect the key components of that team and its tactics and system, it will be difficult for it to thrive before of after changing divisions regardless of whether you move up or down. We do not yet have a nucleus of 'a team' and the season is fast approaching its conclusion. That is why I do not feel optimistic for next season regardless of the league we are playing in or who is managing it.
Quote from: grandad on April 01, 2019, 10:59:31 AM
We should not sign loanees as this was the mistake we have made before. After promotion we had only a dozen or so players as all the loan players went back to their clubs. Should we bounce back with a full quota of loanees we will be in the same position of having to sign nearly half a squad . We need to sign permanently players who would go up with us . The Wolves model has worked for them perfectly.
Why not just sign players on loan and if we go up, then sign them permanently at the end of the season? That's what we did successfully with Mitrovic and what Wolves did with several key players.
Or you could re-loan them for another year.
Do some on here think there's an FA rule that says if you loan a player, they can't play for you next season?
Quote from: Sting of the North on April 01, 2019, 12:45:39 PM
I would also argue, as others did already, that the rest of the squad is substantially stronger now than last year.
Agreed. Anguissa and Seri may not be as good as some hoped but they have effectively replaced Norwood and Piazon in our squad. Fabri has replaced Button. Mawson has replaced Kalas and Babel, if we can keep him, would be replacing Ojo. How anyone can suggest we're worse than we were last year seems like utter madness to me.
Personally I don't think we are worse than last year but the step up from Championship to Prem league is too great for players such as Odoi, Ream, Christie and Ayite. This puts pressure on the rest of the team when that is three out the back four that is not up to scratch.
If we go down the loan route once again we will be in the same position as last season. Most Prem clubs only loan players out to either get game time or to earn money with the loan fee. Chelsea have dedicated staff overseeing their loan system as the earn so much out from it.
Not cure how players such as Kmac and Stephan Jo will feel if they are selected again for our Championship team but were deemed not good enough for the Prem team. Their desire to get us promoted again may be somewhat diminished as they may feel the same thing will happen again if we bounce back.
Quote from: Statto on April 01, 2019, 01:49:34 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on April 01, 2019, 12:45:39 PM
I would also argue, as others did already, that the rest of the squad is substantially stronger now than last year.
Agreed. Anguissa and Seri may not be as good as some hoped but they have effectively replaced Norwood and Piazon in our squad. Fabri has replaced Button. Mawson has replaced Kalas and Babel, if we can keep him, would be replacing Ojo. How anyone can suggest we're worse than we were last year seems like utter madness to me.
I agree, but its only the goalscorers that worries me, one injury or last minute transfers deals could really hurt us here.
Quote from: Statto on April 01, 2019, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: grandad on April 01, 2019, 10:59:31 AM
We should not sign loanees as this was the mistake we have made before. After promotion we had only a dozen or so players as all the loan players went back to their clubs. Should we bounce back with a full quota of loanees we will be in the same position of having to sign nearly half a squad . We need to sign permanently players who would go up with us . The Wolves model has worked for them perfectly.
Why not just sign players on loan and if we go up, then sign them permanently at the end of the season? That's what we did successfully with Mitrovic and what Wolves did with several key players.
Or you could re-loan them for another year.
Do some on here think there's an FA rule that says if you loan a player, they can't play for you next season?
The trouble is that clubs that loan players out are often inflating their valuations should a player succeed. Look what happened when we inquired about Kalas and tried to buy Targett. Then, if there's no agreement we end up in the same predicament as the start of this season.
Quote from: 3rdgenfan on March 31, 2019, 09:58:16 AM
A lot has been said about retaining the players for next season in the Championship.
Whilst I would agree this would be good for a Championship campaign and may lead to us making a push for the playoffs again we will be in the same position we are this season with a squad that is not good enough for the Premier League.
The whole defensive unit has proved that it is not Prem quality. I think we need to start to rebuild the squad with the target of promotion in two to three seasons and sign players that can make it in the Prem. We have been too reliant on loan players in the Championship and even in the Prem this season.
Cairney has struggled, Sess is not quite ready and the goals from Mitro have dried up.
One of our outstanding players this campaign has been Chambers and yesterday we had 5 loan players on the pitch at one time. This is not a model way to run a team.
People keep on saying "the players in the defensive unit are not Prem quality", but I would suggest the bigger problem is
"the players collectively are not a defensive unit". The proof every players is too good for Oldham, but collectively they couldn't keep a clean sheet.