Must admit that:
Onomah looked like a real donkey when he first arrived.I wrote him off. Shows how wrong you can be.
Thought Kmacs legs had gone and wrote him off.
Never thought Kamara could put in good displays with control upfront. Wrote him off.
Wouldnt have dropped Bettinelli for Rodak.
Parker got these things right. Well done to him.
When your on a message board its about expressing thoughts and ideas you have about the team and invariably we get wrong/right. Any level of football is form based and even Sunday league players can grow in to a team or fail, but yes Parker does appear to be learning and he is growing in to his role as well.
The Boro game was so much better, fingers crossed we can push on now.
Before we get too excited remember Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald have played a combined 2,743 minutes for 1 goal and 2 assists this Championship season. We seem to be leaving goals and assists to the front four, if I was the other team wouldn't bother marking players like Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald too much.
Not sure Parker can be credited with McDonald or Kamara given how long they were absent from the team to begin with, albeit I don't know the extent of McDonald's injury/fitness issues. Can't argue with his faith in Onamah however.
kamara is definitely down to parker ,brought back from exile and got a couple of really good performances out of him. kmac could have been on his way out. Even Stef j has surprised us all and given everything,despite being in and out of the team. parker is doing something right.
I never saw him as anything like a donkey, He was big, good touch and could shield the ball well.
I was hopeful he would improve as he got used to his team mates and there was a role in the team for someone like him waiting to be filled.
Of course it depended on his attitude and so far so good but he has to improve his finishing.
I'm sure that will improve.
How many of us doubted Scott Parker. Through quietly getting on with his new job in life all the commendable above is down to he. :54:
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I think it's really scraping to barrel to give Parker credit for the fact that players aged 29 and 31 (Johansen and Mcdonald) are still almost as good as they were when they were 27 and 29 respectively. They're hardly geriatric, so I'd expect nothing less.
Also I, and plenty on here, could have told him Bettinelli wasn't good enough and were calling for Rodak to be given an opportunity.
And Kamara has been good, on and off the pitch, for years. It was only Ranieri that had a problem with him.
But I admit I was also wrong about Onomah and Parker has done really well to bring him in and motivate/coach him to his full potential.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 19, 2020, 02:46:40 PM
kamara is definitely down to parker ,brought back from exile and got a couple of really good performances out of him. kmac could have been on his way out. Even Stef j has surprised us all and given everything,despite being in and out of the team. parker is doing something right.
My point about Kamara was that he'd been given hardly any minutes until the game Mitro was suspended, when Parker had little alternative and despite the fact that our other forwards had long been struggling to make an impact. A positive change but somewhat overdue.
I have been one of Onomah's fiercest critics but I've been watching and playing football too long to ever write anyone off. I've witnessed bang average players become very valuable to teams and conversely seen some talented players waste their natural ability through lack of effort or application.
For me Anguissa falls into that latter category and despite some flashes of brilliance, never really knuckled down. Onomah was showing the same tendencies but fortunately looks to be adapting better. I still question his reading of the game though. He seems to drift around the midfield, watching the play ebb and flow around him and only intervening just too late, often as the ball has moved on. Compare him and Arter in this aspect of their game.
I do, however, acknowledge that Josh is better on the ball and as he is gaining confidence, his ball carrying and close play is improving, to the extent that he is becoming a threat. I also accept that this brings something different to our attacking play and so long as he has a grafter alongside him, like Kev or Harry Reid, I think we can get away with Josh and Tom in the same team for most of the time.
Quote from: Statto on January 19, 2020, 03:19:59 PM
I think it's really scraping to barrel to give Parker credit for the fact that players aged 29 and 31 (Johansen and Mcdonald) are still almost as good as they were when they were 27 and 29 respectively. They're hardly geriatric, so I'd expect nothing less.
Also I, and plenty on here, could have told him Bettinelli wasn't good enough and were calling for Rodak to be given an opportunity.
And Kamara has been good, on and off the pitch, for years. It was only Ranieri that had a problem with him.
But I admit I was also wrong about Onomah and Parker has done really well to bring him in and motivate/coach him to his full potential.
Slavisa wrote them off last season as did the club.Good management to get them back to previous levels.As for Parker ,you clearly dont like him and are unlikely to give him credit for much as it goes against what you have stated previously. Shame it has to be like that really.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 19, 2020, 02:30:25 PM
Before we get too excited remember Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald have played a combined 2,743 minutes for 1 goal and 2 assists this Championship season. We seem to be leaving goals and assists to the front four, if I was the other team wouldn't bother marking players like Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald too much.
The reason we leave scoring & assists to the front 4 is because that is their job.
I thought KMac's legs had gone in the last friendly before the Prem season last year but he was superb on Friday and hopefully throughout the rest of the season.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 19, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Slavisa wrote them off last season as did the club.Good management to get them back to previous levels.As for Parker ,you clearly dont like him and are unlikely to give him credit for much as it goes against what you have stated previously. Shame it has to be like that really.
Colin, I'm not sure about you but my comments are based on facts and reasoning, not a petty dislike for, or mancrush on, a particular individual.
The irony of this sort of comment is some people (probably you) used to say the same thing when I criticised TK, and now, after his much-improved recent performance, I seem to be one of his biggest fans on here.
I'd also urge the mods to have a word because it's that sort of rudeness and ignorance that caused a mini-meltdown on here a few weeks ago and several "why can't everyone just play nice" threads
Anyway, back to the topic of the thread, Mcdonald and Johansen were dropped because we went up to a much harder league and spent £50m on two fellas from the French league to replace them. None of that implies, and I doubt anyone at the club believed, that Mcdonald or Johansen had suddenly, inexplicably become worse players.
By the "rudeness and ignorance",I assume you are referring to your" mini-meltdown" which resulted in abusive language and several posts which were way out of order. Lets move on from that.There were no hard feelings from me.
So many of us g0t it wrong about Omomah and Parker got it right, beginingto think that perhapsParker has a better eye for talent than we do.
Our midfied is looking good but as said above we do need to see some goals from them, they need to get in the box from time to time.
And Kamara has been good, on and off the pitch, for years. It was only Ranieri that had a problem with him.
[/quote]
and
Colin, I'm not sure about you but my comments are based on facts ...
[/quote]
I would seriously question the validity of the above assertions, Statto.
Mitro had a massive problem with Kamara over yoga [fact] that was made very public and he also had a major incident at the training ground [fact] that could have got him fired from most clubs.
Instead, Kamara was loaned out and only brought back in to the fold during the close season by Parker who also gave him the opportunity to step in for Mitro against QPR.
I would not call that "years" of being good on and off the pitch and only the most partisan would deny Parker some degree of credit for Kamara's reintegration to the squad.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 19, 2020, 01:59:45 PM
Must admit that:
Onomah looked like a real donkey when he first arrived.I wrote him off. Shows how wrong you can be.
Thought Kmacs legs had gone and wrote him off.
Never thought Kamara could put in good displays with control upfront. Wrote him off.
Wouldnt have dropped Bettinelli for Rodak.
Parker got these things right. Well done to him.
Onomah was going to come good - I wasn't 100% sure but 70% - it's a lot to get a good education, mentorship and having someone believe in you and he had all of those whilst also have a good deal of athleticism and technique.
He seems to be growing with each game too and doing well from others views which is great to see and makes the sale of sessegnon look like an increasingly good deal all things considered. Let's hope it's athleticism non upwards curve into the long term future and he can hold his own in the premiership too.
I got it wrong about MacDonald... and apparently Odoi's ability to play RB.
That's all I've been wrong about though. I'll admit Onomah scared me for a bit, but I thought the people that wrote him off (like they did Anguissa) were judging him on a small sample size .
I'm glad my worries about him taking too long to adjust were unfounded.
Quote from: Hatch007 on January 19, 2020, 06:54:52 PM
And Kamara has been good, on and off the pitch, for years. It was only Ranieri that had a problem with him.
and
Colin, I'm not sure about you but my comments are based on facts ...
[/quote]
I would seriously question the validity of the above assertions, Statto.
Mitro had a massive problem with Kamara over yoga [fact] that was made very public and he also had a major incident at the training ground [fact] that could have got him fired from most clubs.
Instead, Kamara was loaned out and only brought back in to the fold during the close season by Parker who also gave him the opportunity to step in for Mitro against QPR.
I would not call that "years" of being good on and off the pitch and only the most partisan would deny Parker some degree of credit for Kamara's reintegration to the squad.
[/quote]
I love that you use [fact] as if it somehow makes the at least partly speculative and subjective parts ("massive problem", "major incident") of your comment more valid.
Maybe it was much blown out of proportion?
In my book most things points to Ranieri being more of a problem than Kamara ["fact"].
My opinion of kamara and it was only my opinion ,was that he had a poor first touch,was generally clumsy,all blood and thunder and abit f a hot head ,with poor understanding of the game and an overinflated view of his own ability. And that was long before Ranieri set foot in the club (though he probably made things worse). The performance aginst QPR and the matche sthat followed must be down to something ,because for me, there was amarked improvement in his play.
Could just you your starting point was ill judged and a bit rash? I always thought he was capable and had attributes that we didn't have ie pace and strength in abundance. Happens to the best of us, i've been wrong and wrote off plenty of players over the years (and managers), but when someone comes good, there's no shame in changing an opinion when proven wrong. The shame is not changing the opinion when proven wrong. I predicted first top 2, then 6th, and now I think we could do top 2 again.....and Parker should of been sacked. Happens.
Quote from: Hatch007 on January 19, 2020, 06:54:52 PM
I would seriously question the validity of the above assertions, Statto.
Mitro had a massive problem with Kamara over yoga [fact] that was made very public and he also had a major incident at the training ground [fact] that could have got him fired from most clubs.
Instead, Kamara was loaned out and only brought back in to the fold during the close season by Parker who also gave him the opportunity to step in for Mitro against QPR.
I would not call that "years" of being good on and off the pitch and only the most partisan would deny Parker some degree of credit for Kamara's reintegration to the squad.
Let's be clear about the factual position:
The penalty incident and alleged yoga and training ground incidents all occurred within a three-week period around Christmas 2018, at which time Kamara had already been at the club for one and a half "years".
Mitrovic said after the penalty incident that he had no problem with Kamara and had done the same thing himself in the past.
The details of the yoga and training ground incidents were newspaper rumours, not "facts".
Mcdonald came out after the yoga story and said it was amazing what the newspapers could make up.
No charges were brought after the alleged training ground incident, implying Kamara dud not use or threaten violence (because that would constitute assault, an offence).
Quote from: colinwhite on January 19, 2020, 07:56:48 PM
My opinion of kamara and it was only my opinion ,was that he had a poor first touch,was generally clumsy,all blood and thunder and abit f a hot head ,with poor understanding of the game and an overinflated view of his own ability. And that was long before Ranieri set foot in the club (though he probably made things worse). The performance aginst QPR and the matche sthat followed must be down to something ,because for me, there was amarked improvement in his play.
Can I assume you were gutted and perplexed to see him in the starting XI at Wembley then?
Quote from: FFC1987 on January 19, 2020, 08:03:57 PM
Could just you your starting point was ill judged and a bit rash? I always thought he was capable and had attributes that we didn't have ie pace and strength in abundance. Happens to the best of us, i've been wrong and wrote off plenty of players over the years (and managers), but when someone comes good, there's no shame in changing an opinion when proven wrong. The shame is not changing the opinion when proven wrong. I predicted first top 2, then 6th, and now I think we could do top 2 again.....and Parker should of been sacked. Happens.
Clearly that was the case to a degree,but the performance we saw against QPR was a marked develpoment you must admit from what we had seen previously.. The list of things I have got wrong is long for sure !
I was nt gutted to see him at wembley Statto ,but not sure he would have been my choice. But he did a good job in a different role in the play-offs as well as at wembley,but cant remember ever thinking he was up to much as striker. In the QPR match he proved me wrong and good on him for that.
I never doubted his pace or physical strength ,and his role at wembly gave him an opportunity to use theses qualities in a role he was better suited to at the time
Let's be clear about the factual position:
The penalty incident and alleged yoga and training ground incidents all occurred within a three-week period around Christmas 2018, at which time Kamara had already been at the club for one and a half "years".
Mitrovic said after the penalty incident that he had no problem with Kamara and had done the same thing himself in the past.
The details of the yoga and training ground incidents were newspaper rumours, not "facts".
Mcdonald came out after the yoga story and said it was amazing what the newspapers could make up.
No charges were brought after the alleged training ground incident, implying Kamara dud not use or threaten violence (because that would constitute assault, an offence).
[/quote]
Fact, not rumour. It was a club statement!!!
In a club statement, Fulham added: "The club is grateful for the swift attention and action by the Metropolitan Police immediately following our reporting of the incident on Monday. The subject who was arrested is banned indefinitely from Motspur Park and all club activities.
Source: The Telegraph
So you're just wrong about it being a rumour but will never admit it. Just sayin'
Quote from: Hatch007 on January 19, 2020, 11:10:33 PM
Fact, not rumour. It was a club statement!!!
In a club statement, Fulham added: "The club is grateful for the swift attention and action by the Metropolitan Police immediately following our reporting of the incident on Monday. The subject who was arrested is banned indefinitely from Motspur Park and all club activities.
Source: The Telegraph
So you're just wrong about it being a rumour but will never admit it. Just sayin'
I'm not sure quoting a club statement that doesn't tell you who was involved or what happened contradicts my comment that the "details" were rumours... But it was already clear that you've a very limited understanding of the concepts of fact and reason. I take it from your silence on the other points that you've at least seen sense on those.
Goodnight!
Quote from: Statto on January 19, 2020, 11:26:05 PM
Quote from: Hatch007 on January 19, 2020, 11:10:33 PM
Fact, not rumour. It was a club statement!!!
In a club statement, Fulham added: "The club is grateful for the swift attention and action by the Metropolitan Police immediately following our reporting of the incident on Monday. The subject who was arrested is banned indefinitely from Motspur Park and all club activities.
Source: The Telegraph
So you're just wrong about it being a rumour but will never admit it. Just sayin'
I'm not sure quoting a club statement that doesn't tell you who was involved or what happened contradicts my comment that the "details" were rumours... But it was already clear that you've a very limited understanding of the concepts of fact and reason. I take it from your silence on the other points that you've at least seen sense on those.
Goodnight!
Doesn't tell you who was involved? Jesus, that's close to the ultimate in clutching at straws! I literally LMFAO when I read your reply.
I could rip your reply to pieces were I bothered in the slightest by your opinion on my "understanding blah blah blah" but please don't for one minute flatter yourself and consider my silence on that and the other points as any kind of admission of anything. It's not! I just have better things to do with my time than pull you up on every inaccuracy or questionable comment. I disagree with so much of your drivel on this site that I choose to ignore and should know better but for my sins I took the bait on this one occasion. I just wanted to satisfy my curiosity to see if you would admit you were wrong but deep down I knew all along it's beneath you.
Goodnight? Nice sign off you sad, patronising fool.
With the tone and disrespect I regularly see you extend to so many on this board you clearly love to feel superior and have the last word so enjoy your unanswered, pointless riposte to this reply. Rest assured I won't waste any more of my time by responding any further.
I got it so very wrong to think this was a thread about Onomah only to meet with so many cheap shots about incidents that have many more facets to them than some people who comment about them have grey matter for brains, but I may return to that for a later comment.
As for the worship of Onomah and Parker then I take that to be people who genuinely need to clutch at straws rather than coolly and collectively look at simple facts. We started this season as an automatic promotion standard team and, as of now, that remains a possibility or a doubt depending on how you want to view it. Work, and a lot of it, still needs to be done. Onomah is also, IMO, still in that murky area that asks whilst he has improved is he clearly better than those left out of the side to accommodate him? That is a measure you must make of any player in any position. I still have many doubts about him as a young player but they are intrinsically linked to what Parker is trying to do with him and the midfield, and that is my big doubt about Parker too. I think Parker has passed up many chances to solve his problems in midfield via the scenic route rather than by tried and tested formula methods. That remains my doubt about Parker and, even if he achieves promotion via whatever route, it will remain a doubt about him for the future.
Jokanovic's methods were understandable and easy to comprehend over time. I do not find that with Parker at all.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 19, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
Slavisa wrote them off last season as did the club.Good management to get them back to previous levels.As for Parker ,you clearly dont like him and are unlikely to give him credit for much as it goes against what you have stated previously. Shame it has to be like that really.
This is the bigoted and blinkered comment that kicked the whole thing off, IMHO. It is, IMO, playground stuff that you should leave behind when you pass puberty.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 19, 2020, 02:30:25 PM
Before we get too excited remember Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald have played a combined 2,743 minutes for 1 goal and 2 assists this Championship season. We seem to be leaving goals and assists to the front four, if I was the other team wouldn't bother marking players like Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald too much.
Well, if they repeat that effort and we continue to win, then I, for one, am not going to complain. I always look upon this as a team effort, not so much individuals, so is it not possible their presence and off-ball movement might have contributed to the other players scoring and assisting?
Like Colin, I had the same thoughts regarding Onomah and KMac, but they each put shifts in that contribute to the overall effort, and whether they are as good as some other players it all comes down to whether they contribute as much or more than those other 'better' players. In the past few games they have, KMac is slow, but positions well, and Onomah has been slowly improving since playing for regularly. I still find Ream making too many silly mistakes when passing (especially backwards) but he has proven himself in the air many times.
Perhaps the other managers understand that these players have not scored as much, but realize they are a threat all the same, and so they continue to mark them?
Theres nothing bigoted about mentioning that Slavisa played neither Kmac or Stef jo ,on many occassions in the premiership. That was his choice ,though granted he may have been under pressure to play the new signings.
Toshes mate. What are you trying to achieve with your comments that are presumably directed at me ? " Play ground ,Puberty " etc comes from your interpretation of something within yourself ,not anything I have stated. Interesting and unfortunate choice of words which says more about your emotions than mine.
as far as comparing Slavisa to Scott is concerned ,that seems to me to be a bit unfair. Jokanovic did superb a job for us and although not vastly experienced had been around for a while. Parker is learning on the job with a new squad so its seems a bit harsh to judge him just yet on the clarity that you seek. I agree that he has struggled and things are far from certain moving forward but he appears to have the players solidly behind him as the re-appearance of the metioned players illustrate, and that seems like a decent start to me.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 20, 2020, 01:05:09 PM
Theres nothing bigoted about mentioning that Slavisa played neither Kmac or Stef jo ,on many occassions in the premiership. That was his choice ,though granted he may have been under pressure to play the new signings.
Toshes mate. What are you trying to achieve with your comments that are presumably directed at me ? " Play ground ,Puberty " etc comes from your interpretation of something within yourself ,not anything I have stated. Interesting and unfortunate choice of words which says more about your emotions than mine.
I'm sure you're clever enough to work out he (like me) was referring to the last two sentences -
"As for Parker ,you clearly dont like him and are unlikely to give him credit for much as it goes against what you have stated previously. Shame it has to be like that really."
Wasnt that fair comment Statto ? Based on what you have written previously it was an observation. If it caused offense then appologies .
@colinwhite
Oh yes, colinwhite, we should all recognise it within ourselves because we have been through it. Get over yourself.
The arguments about SJ and whatever happened to his motley crew from the promotion year are long worn out. Your words were - Slavisa wrote them off - because you wanted to make your comparison with your new god, SP, so clear to the rest of your audience that you didn't know how to express it any other way. It kicked things off and that is what makes it childish.
I apologise if I have offended you but the thread was interesting up to that point and then descended into nastiness. Just my opinion as I said.
Toshes mate . ok no offence taken. but to be clear- I am no Parker worshiper . He has a lot to learn and the jury is very firmly out , but I hope he succeeds . You are reading things into some comments that are not there. I dont agree with much of your criticism of Parker but I respect your opinion and hope that you do mine.
@colinwhite
I respect all opinion even if I disagree with it and that is why I thought the thread was interesting enough for me to comment today. I note Statto's comment above which echoes the sting I felt when I first read your comment. I thought about not commenting but the thread contains a lot of bile and we know that tends to turn people away from posting. I am delighted my comment has fostered some reasonable follow up.
I am guilty of believing that Jokanovic was one of the best coaches I have ever seen at FFC. I mean that in pure professional footballing terms and because I understand that the likes of such coaches do not come along regularly like 'buses and the Khans should never have sacked him in the manner they did with such odious disrespect and disregard for his abilities and his passion to get things right no matter what obstacles were put in his way. I know we were not doing well but the Khans hardly made things better did they? (rhetorical). I haven't expected Parker to be up there with Jokanovic and, even if he achieves promotion it will not be like the gold dust Jokanovic brought with him. Parker will get better, and I hope he does so, and then we can judge him more fairly against the likes of SJ.
We've become such (me included) an argumentative lot on here. Given our position several weeks ago being third and four points behind 2nd even with my optimistic outlook would have been a real leap of faith.
Hector looks a great addition and I think the improvement in Josh's play is great. Knockharts comments on Sky after the game that any of the top ten teams in the Championship could grab an automatic promotion position shows at least one of the squad has a very realistic view of how things are poised.
I'm looking forward to the Charlton game. Win and we're that bit closer. Lose and well that's just the way it's always been if you've hitched your wagon to Fulham.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 19, 2020, 02:30:25 PM
Before we get too excited remember Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald have played a combined 2,743 minutes for 1 goal and 2 assists this Championship season. We seem to be leaving goals and assists to the front four, if I was the other team wouldn't bother marking players like Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald too much.
Maybe the point is "the front four" and that in fact some (certainly Reed and McdOonald) sit deeper so there is far less chance of them assisting goals .. their main objective to protect the back 4 and release the ball to those a bit further forward. Which is exactly why teams, especially those sitting back, don't bother marking the players mentioned. The exception may be Onomah who had two really good opportunities against Boro.
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 20, 2020, 04:24:56 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 19, 2020, 02:30:25 PM
Before we get too excited remember Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald have played a combined 2,743 minutes for 1 goal and 2 assists this Championship season. We seem to be leaving goals and assists to the front four, if I was the other team wouldn't bother marking players like Onomah, Arter, Reed and McDonald too much.
Maybe the point is "the front four" and that in fact some (certainly Reed and McdOonald) sit deeper so there is far less chance of them assisting goals .. their main objective to protect the back 4 and release the ball to those a bit further forward. Which is exactly why teams, especially those sitting back, don't bother marking the players mentioned. The exception may be Onomah who had two really good opportunities against Boro.
Just did the maths, at maximum each player would have played 7 games each for that amount of minutes (assuming you're playing 90 minute games). Arter has been out for a lot of time recently, Mcdonald has only just had a run of games recently. So essentially he's criticising two players for 1 goal and two assists when one is a CM/DM and the other has only just started playing regularly in Onomah.
Don't know why, but he seems to be finding stats and figures and then using them to ram home his opinion which lacks breadth of intellectual robustness just to criticise the team.
I get critical analysis is part and parcel of the game, and so is it part of looking to make constant improvements and to not rest of your laurels - but if you're going to, then do so with the widest level of perspective informing your views - not a few tidbits you pick and choose for some sort of posturing. There's a lot more that comes into being a professional footballer - tactics, what Parker asks each player to do with their role and what's expected of them.
Why didn't he pick Cairney, Bryan, Cavaleiro and Knockaert...?
Seems obsessed with the idea of proving how ineffective the team is despite the fact they're in 3rd, have the fourth best goal difference in the league, the joint highest scoring CF (level with ollie watkins of brentford who's only recently caught up with Mitro who's out for 3 games) and 9 players who've scored for us already this season.
He probably didn't include Cavaleiro, Knockaert or Cairney as they would be part of the aforementioned "front four".
Arter has been injured for almost 3 months, and kmac for even longer meaning he has started 3 games all-season. Harrison read has 2 extended injury spells and Cairney ill and nd injured (not to the same degree). Even Boobby Decadova Reid had a 4 match spell on the sidelines.Add to this that Stefan johansen has been carrying a knee injury which he picked up with the Norwegian national side at the start of the season,and its hardly surprising that Parker doesnt appear to know his best starting midfield. The" scenic route " to sorting out the midfield" or" clutching at straws " to excuse Parker ? Not in my book .