Discuss his positive influence on the side. Because I'm struggling.
All he adds at the moment is his name from previous seasons. Must be carrying an injury or other issues.
He is the one who set up the few chances the team had from open play.
He doesn't seem to have any energy.
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
Quote from: Tabby on January 22, 2020, 10:12:03 PM
He is the one who set up the few chances the team had from open play.
Exactly. Not sure why he's being singled out yet again.
Not in his best form but when he is he is the best midfielder in this league. I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt for a fair while longer.
Quote from: Tabby on January 22, 2020, 10:12:03 PM
He is the one who set up the few chances the team had from open play.
This right here is a good reason. But it would help if he was played in the right way in a functioning midfield. Tom will never be a jack of all trades. Still think he was better than Onomah, and much better than Arter today. The biggest problem is that SP seemingly has no idea what he wants the midfield to do, or at least the players don't seem to know. It feels more and more like the good spells like the first 30 minutes against Boro is happening purely because we have good players and sometimes things just happens to work. There are no signs however that we are following a plan on how to gradually improve. Although injuries hasn't been helping, difficult to feel other than the first half season or so being a waste of time and talent as there is no more of a structure than it was the first few games (actually would say it's less, since Parker seem to chop and change much more as if he's lost faith in his own ideas already).
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
This is it for me.
Agree with others. Not being played in his best position so no real surprise that he isn't replicating his old form.
We bought Seri because we were too dependent on often injuried Cairney for creativity. In the Premier League, we struggled to play both Seri and Cairney at the same time, but with only one of them in the squad we sometimes have no Cairney (or semi-fit Cairney) which is not good enough. Bring Seri Back, they can play 45 mins each.
I agree with S-O-T-N. How can you expect anyone to function properly when there is no sensible plan coordinating the midfield organisation? There was one point in the game around the hour mark when after a Charlton attack broke down McDonald urged the play forward looking for a pass and Arter was ambling meaninglessly along well behind him not even looking to join up play. And I am not just talking about Arter others were equally guilty of not joining in. Hector, Odoi, De Cordova-Reid, Cavaleiro, and Bryan did have some sense of purpose at times but there just wasn't any oomph. What the hell are the coaching staff doing too?
What are we paying these people for?
Quote from: toshes mate on January 22, 2020, 10:37:38 PM
I agree with S-O-T-N. How can you expect anyone to function properly when there is no sensible plan coordinating the midfield organisation? There was one point in the game around the hour mark when after a Charlton attack broke down McDonald urged the play forward looking for a pass and Arter was ambling meaninglessly along well behind him not even looking to join up play. And I am not just talking about Arter others were equally guilty of not joining in. Hector, Odoi, De Cordova-Reid, Cavaleiro, and Bryan did have some sense of purpose at times but there just wasn't any oomph. What the hell are the coaching staff doing too?
What are we paying these people for?
Several weeks back there were complaints that we were rushing too many into the attack and getting caught on the counter. I'd say that was probably what was being coached. It proved correct as well because we looked to be in trouble when Charlton managed to counter.
We should have kept Anguissa, Seri and Ayite rather than bringing in Reed, Arter and Reid.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:38 PM
Quote from: Tabby on January 22, 2020, 10:12:03 PM
He is the one who set up the few chances the team had from open play.
Exactly. Not sure why he's being singled out yet again.
and it was Tom that spread the ball to Bryan which led to the boro goal too.
wrong position and targeted, had no time on ball. He made a couple of chances which were incredibly rare overall. I know cafc are desperate for points but 11 behind ball in their final 3rd was probably unexpected.
Also, I don't know if anyone agrees but the pitch was horrible. It was the sort of pitch I had to play on. It was like a hockey astroturf pitch with patches. You really need to be careful on first touch and that does not make for slick passing
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 22, 2020, 10:42:30 PM
We should have kept Anguissa, Seri and Ayite rather than bringing in Reed, Arter and Reid.
yep
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
Me neither. The tragic thing is, I don't think he is.
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 22, 2020, 10:42:30 PM
We should have kept Anguissa, Seri and Ayite rather than bringing in Reed, Arter and Reid.
Why, are you a glutton for punishment. I was happy with Ayite and thought he could do a job, but the other two would be passengers as they were last year.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 23, 2020, 12:22:31 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 22, 2020, 10:42:30 PM
We should have kept Anguissa, Seri and Ayite rather than bringing in Reed, Arter and Reid.
Why, are you a glutton for punishment. I was happy with Ayite and thought he could do a job, but the other two would be passengers as they were last year.
Of course, this is the same Seri that in defensive midfield his last two games got two assists, the same number our entire team got the last three games. Anguissa is playing so well Real Madrid wants him. Questions need to be asked why Anguiissa and Seri massively underperformed here and perform elsewhere? And, why players of such quality want to come here and then after they arrive don't want to be here anymore? Blame the players if you like, but the players we let go are now better than the ones we gained. Also note, Vietto is having a good season too.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 23, 2020, 12:40:30 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 23, 2020, 12:22:31 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 22, 2020, 10:42:30 PM
We should have kept Anguissa, Seri and Ayite rather than bringing in Reed, Arter and Reid.
Why, are you a glutton for punishment. I was happy with Ayite and thought he could do a job, but the other two would be passengers as they were last year.
Of course, this is the same Seri that in defensive midfield his last two games got two assists, the same number our entire team got the last three games. Anguissa is playing so well Real Madrid wants him. Questions need to be asked why Anguiissa and Seri massively underperformed here and perform elsewhere? And, why players of such quality want to come here and then after they arrive don't want to be here anymore? Blame the players if you like, but the players we let go are now better than the ones we gained. Also note, Vietto is having a good season too.
Vietto and Seri are lightweights and have no physical attributes that is why they don't perform here, it's more of a picnic for them where they are, they haven't got to worry about bruises and will look better that what they are. As for Zambo, he had no desire, no heart and no attachment to Fulham, his body language sucked, he wanted an easy life, even wearing thick gloves he complained of the cold in the mildest winter for yonks.
If I wanted to pick a Fulham team at this moment out of all our registered players to save my life, I would not give any of those three a second thought.
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. ... How is that "precious little end product"?
I can see why Wolves let Cavaleiro go and his end product is inconsistent, but if he had serious end product he'd be equally good to Jamie Vardy and playing for a Big Six Club. We are lucky to have Cavaleiro (i.e. Jamie Vardy without the quality end product and only marginally weaker in other areas) and if we could find another winger as good (or either wing) our goal difference would be about five to ten goals better and we'd have a few more points too. His end product is inconsistent, but when your shooting 44+ times a goal, you don't need to be a great finisher to put 6 in the back of the net.
Frustrating evening under difficult circumstances against a team who put 11 players behind the ball for 90 minutes(if that makes Bowyer a class manager then fine). Not our best performance but so many comments on here are so far off the mark I dont know where to start.
As far as Cairney is concerned he is not at his best and looks tired after half an hour. He is a great player but also a luxury player when we dont have the ball or have to grind away. Would have liked to see him take on a few more strikes on goal in the last couple of games,but we dont know what his status is.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 23, 2020, 06:00:31 AM
Frustrating evening under difficult circumstances against a team who put 11 players behind the ball for 90 minutes(if that makes Bowyer a class manager then fine). Not our best performance but so many comments on here are so far off the mark I dont know where to start.
After 3 clean sheets and two defensive additions, weaker teams will be happy with a point against us.
Parker better be prepared to face "Seven Double Parked Buses" in a row::
Huddersfield (H)
Blackburn (A)
Milwall (A)
Barnsley (H)
Derby (A)
Swansea (H)
Preston (H)
Hopefully we be on more than 56 points after 36 games.
Last season, Stoke went through ten games around now, conceding only three goals and getting only 13 points.
If a team dos this it's hard to overcome, whoever you have in the team.
Cav is one of our best players, in terms of quality and effort, has proved a valuable acquisition, as has Reid and Arter, particularly. Cav is nothing like Vardy as a player.
All have been far more effective for us than Seri and Angusissa ever were, and would be even in the Prem I think.
Yes, Seri and Anguisa may have performed well elsewhere, so you say anyway - but we are here , in the English league. Where were/are the other Prem clubs wanting to buy them off us?
Quote from: RaySmith on January 23, 2020, 06:39:59 AM
If a team dos this it's hard to overcome, whoever you have in the team.
Cav is one of our best players, in terms of quality and effort, has proved a valuable acquisition, as has Reid and Arter, particularly. Cav is nothing like Vardy as a player.
All have been far more effective for us than Seri and Angusissa ever were, and would be even in the Prem I think.
Yes, Seri and Anguisa may have performed well elsewhere, so you say anyway - but we are here , in the English league. Where were/are the other Prem clubs wanting to buy them off us?
You say we are better than last season, but against the other bottom six teams last season we picked up 19 points in 12 games (i.e. 1.58 points per game), this season we have got 49 points from 29 games (i.e. 1.68 points per game). We are picking up one extra point every ten games, and the opposition is probably weaker this season.
Seri and Anguissa failed in Premier League, but so did KMac, Stefjo and Cairney who are all decent in the Championship. Everton considered buying Seri, but not willing to pay near £15m for him, and only Cairney from our midfield might get near that figure. Seri isn't much of a Premier League player and Cairney would start but wouldn't star in any squad even those getting relegated.
Seri would have been more useful today than both a half-fit Cairney and a fully fit Onamah. We need someone like Cairney every game, without a backup Cairney (like Seri) we are dropping too many points when he is either unavailable, unfit or tired at the end of three day match week. Who is our Cairney backup? Who is our backup creative central midfielder rather than just a workhorse?
As for Vardy, if he didn't have his finishing abilities in front of goal, then he would have to play on the wing and although different probably wouldn't be much better than Cav, while if Cav was a great finisher he would probably be a center-forward at a top club (not Vardy in style but an equally top player). We point we have Cav because his end product is nowhere near Vardy, but still very lucky to have him.
As for the Double Bus being hard to overcome, welcome to the Championship and why ex-Premier League teams struggle so much in this division to get out. It is the first question, anyone should have asked a new coach trying to get a promotion "How are you going to win when the other team is playing for a draw?". I am not sure after today that Parker has an answer, at least he doesn't without Mitro, Kamara and Knockaert.
Personally, I think Lee Bowyer saw our defensive performance in the last three games (including the FA cup) though Hector-Ream was class and decided to go for a point, unlike last time we played Charlton where he tried to win. Now our defense is looking better, half the teams we play will be happy with a point so Parker will be facing many "double parked buses". I see our problems quickly becoming how to be breakdown these other team defenses now they are aiming for a point.
The same experts who waxed about how Onomah was not a footballer now feel they have the knowledge to comment on the abilities of tc.
Whilst Parker is our manager, we aren't going to get the best out of Cairney. I wouldn't start Cairney, going on our recent form and style. Unless we try to play more like the first 30 mins vs Boro.
I'm also in no doubt that Cairney will not be going anywhere. Parker will be extremely lucky to be our manager again next season. So its probably in his best interest to just ride this wave.
Reid - McDonald - Onomah would be our best midfield right now, if everyone was fit.
I don't think its anything to do with the position Tom is in,as I've stated earlier he seems to lack energy, not just last night.
Maybe he's eating too much junk food which he likes,and needs to look at his diet.
Just a thought.
I am convinced Cairney is still suffering the effects of the virus that hit the club. Having recently experienced the same it is taking me weeks to recover. Loss of sleep, lack of appetite, really take it out of one. Credit for Cairney for still wanting to turn out.
" He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?"
He (Cav) is our joint second top goal scorer, joint alongside with Cairney.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 22, 2020, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on January 22, 2020, 10:37:38 PM
I agree with S-O-T-N. How can you expect anyone to function properly when there is no sensible plan coordinating the midfield organisation? There was one point in the game around the hour mark when after a Charlton attack broke down McDonald urged the play forward looking for a pass and Arter was ambling meaninglessly along well behind him not even looking to join up play. And I am not just talking about Arter others were equally guilty of not joining in. Hector, Odoi, De Cordova-Reid, Cavaleiro, and Bryan did have some sense of purpose at times but there just wasn't any oomph. What the hell are the coaching staff doing too?
What are we paying these people for?
Several weeks back there were complaints that we were rushing too many into the attack and getting caught on the counter. I'd say that was probably what was being coached. It proved correct as well because we looked to be in trouble when Charlton managed to counter.
Matt10 - this was not the gungho style observed in the past. It was simply an example of a player not feeling obliged to join in i.e. let someone else do it. I have complained about midfield disorganisation throughout this season because that is what I am seeing game to game. In flurries it may work but it is hopelessly inconsistent - coached or un-coached.
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 22, 2020, 10:22:00 PM
Quote from: Tabby on January 22, 2020, 10:12:03 PM
He is the one who set up the few chances the team had from open play.
This right here is a good reason. But it would help if he was played in the right way in a functioning midfield. Tom will never be a jack of all trades. Still think he was better than Onomah, and much better than Arter today. The biggest problem is that SP seemingly has no idea what he wants the midfield to do, or at least the players don't seem to know. It feels more and more like the good spells like the first 30 minutes against Boro is happening purely because we have good players and sometimes things just happens to work. There are no signs however that we are following a plan on how to gradually improve. Although injuries hasn't been helping, difficult to feel other than the first half season or so being a waste of time and talent as there is no more of a structure than it was the first few games (actually would say it's less, since Parker seem to chop and change much more as if he's lost faith in his own ideas already).
Great Post, I don't think today's problems are new as people think, I believe we have had the same problems for all this season and all last season. Many people have been blind-sighted by other issues such as "a poor defense", "some expensive acquisitions in 2018 for good players not good enough for the premier league" or "some excellent individual brilliance (Cairney, Cav, Schürrle and Mitrovic)".
But, we have exactly the same problem we have had ever since the summer of 2018 that is the team is not working as a cohesive unit and swapping the squad, after 3 clean sheets in the premier league, in the summer of 2019 only meant the process of learning to work together starts again. In comparison, Charlton looked very cohesive with a very simple plan "park the bus and catch them on the break when they're out of position".
Rational fan it doesnt take a tactical genius to get a bunch of players to park the bus . It takes work but get ateam playing good attacking football at pace requires so much more ,trust me.
Cairney needs to drop back to his deep play making position, that is where he is at his best and somehow seems to get more shots on goal when playing there, He lacks the pace for the more forward role he is being asked to play.
Heard from someone on another post that Cairney has been playing through an injury and probably needs an op, so I'll give him credit for playing rather than give him grief
Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
I've been saying it for a long time - he's not been the same player we had in 17 and late 18 for a long, long time. The last game where he was the TC I admired so much was the Final. He's back from illness, so some will forgive him recent games, but frankly I think he's been below his best all season. I don't know what the answer is beyond some time on the bench, and perhaps not giving him a new contract every five minutes.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 22, 2020, 10:42:30 PM
We should have kept Anguissa, Seri and Ayite rather than bringing in Reed, Arter and Reid.
Seri was rubbish and Anguissa started to improve but between the two of them they only scored one goal.
Would we have the same chance to get back to the Prem without him? I don't think he would make a starting 18 in the Prem, but have more questions than answers. I believe that our midfield Prem starting 3 would be a mix of a McDonald style player, Anguissa, and a strong AM ala Onomah (but not Onomah). The club won't sell Cairney this window, but if I'm looking to improve this window...a sale of Cairney plus Seri could fund a strategic buy.
I'm struggling to understand the OP
I didn't see the second half yesterday but saw the first half and he showed sublime awareness of players making runs and made some absolutely class passes.
I felt he stood firm and didn't see any mistakes.
Did he fall apart in the second half?
sell Cairney and buy Eze...easy. Seriously, I suspect Cairney may not be 100%. We have had this virus and it takes for ever to fully get rid of. Why play him you may ask and that is a fair question. I suspect with all the injuries etc Scott felt a not 100% Cairney was still needed to provide creativity. Probably Parker should leave him out if the above is true and play StefJo. I fully expect SefJo to replace Cairney at City.
Cairney has & will always be the 1st name on my teamsheet. He is a class above most playmakers in this division. Players like him only need one spark of brilliance to change a game. Sometimes it doesn´t happen but when it does we are in awe.
TC is very introvert & doesn´t easily show his emotions. I suspect he hasn´t been 100% fit for sometime. There is no one else at the Club who can do his job. Keep faith with him & support & encourage him.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on January 22, 2020, 10:08:58 PM
Discuss his positive influence on the side. Because I'm struggling.
You are not allowed to criticise Cairney on this forum, hadn't you heard?
Quote from: grandad on January 23, 2020, 01:03:22 PM
Cairney has & will always be the 1st name on my teamsheet. He is a class above most playmakers in this division. Players like him only need one spark of brilliance to change a game. Sometimes it doesn´t happen but when it does we are in awe.
TC is very introvert & doesn´t easily show his emotions. I suspect he hasn´t been 100% fit for sometime. There is no one else at the Club who can do his job. Keep faith with him & support & encourage him.
Tom Cairney's statistics nosedived from 29/11/2019 onwards, with his second-half performances being the real problem. We need a backup playmaker when he is not fit.
Quote from: grandad on January 23, 2020, 01:03:22 PM
Cairney has & will always be the 1st name on my teamsheet. He is a class above most playmakers in this division. Players like him only need one spark of brilliance to change a game. Sometimes it doesn´t happen but when it does we are in awe.
TC is very introvert & doesn´t easily show his emotions. I suspect he hasn´t been 100% fit for sometime. There is no one else at the Club who can do his job. Keep faith with him & support & encourage him.
This is where I'm at as well. It's clear to his teammates, they want to get him the ball. Each time he has it, I have supreme confidence he will not lose it. He's not been as lethal as he was early in the season, but that doesn't mean we just give up on him. Each year that's been a discussion, and each year he proves those wrong. I like his quiet confidence and his role as an action-based captain. Think he's having that same calf issue, which is something I remember Dempsey had as well that kept him out for a couple weeks. Cairney may need more time and possibly address surgery - hopefully not though.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 23, 2020, 01:34:25 PM
Tom Cairney's statistics nosedived from 29/11/2019 onwards, with his second-half performances being the real problem. We need a backup playmaker when he is not fit.
I'd be curious to know which statistics in particular you're referencing out of interest.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 23, 2020, 02:48:30 PM
Quote from: grandad on January 23, 2020, 01:03:22 PM
Cairney has & will always be the 1st name on my teamsheet. He is a class above most playmakers in this division. Players like him only need one spark of brilliance to change a game. Sometimes it doesn´t happen but when it does we are in awe.
TC is very introvert & doesn´t easily show his emotions. I suspect he hasn´t been 100% fit for sometime. There is no one else at the Club who can do his job. Keep faith with him & support & encourage him.
This is where I'm at as well. It's clear to his teammates, they want to get him the ball. Each time he has it, I have supreme confidence he will not lose it. He's not been as lethal as he was early in the season, but that doesn't mean we just give up on him. Each year that's been a discussion, and each year he proves those wrong. I like his quiet confidence and his role as an action-based captain. Think he's having that same calf issue, which is something I remember Dempsey had as well that kept him out for a couple weeks. Cairney may need more time and possibly address surgery - hopefully not though.
He's a playmaker right, which means he needs to pass the ball to other players for him to have a 'good' game, putting it simply. I wonder if half the issue is down to the fact we don't have a very strong pattern of play from game to the next and some of the movement of the advanced players is not as effective as it should be for TC to pick them out.
Maybe that's also over simplistic, but I don't think it's a coincidence that his best games come when the whole team seems to be at it as well.
He needs to be benched at least for a game or two. Somethings wrong or he's being distracted.
Quote from: MikeW on January 23, 2020, 01:07:06 PM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on January 22, 2020, 10:08:58 PM
Discuss his positive influence on the side. Because I'm struggling.
You are not allowed to criticise Cairney on this forum, hadn't you heard?
Thats an interesting point on this "criticise Tom Cairney" thread.
Actually, when I say interesting, what I really mean is only a damn fool would say that
Your response Pimlico in some ways illustrates their point.
There is a bias with TC and due to past achievements (fully to his credit), he gets less scrutiny than others - IMO.
Thought he was the best player in the 1st 30minutes against Boro. Besides Knock ofcourse.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on January 23, 2020, 05:48:17 PM
Your response Pimlico in some ways illustrates their point.
There is a bias with TC and due to past achievements (fully to his credit), he gets less scrutiny than others - IMO.
I completely disagree. I think he gets way more than a fair share of criticism by many posters. In my opinion he was far from our worst player yesterday, and almost never is but still he got his own thread criticizing him. But I haven't really noticed people not being allowed to criticize him. Disagreement is another thing, but that should be expected on a forum.
I would say that his past achievements are working against him rather than for him at the moment, as he seems to be held to a much higher standard than some players.
The problem that I see with the criticism of Cairney is that it is usually a generic assessment. "He can't tackle", "He spins around too much", "He's just lost it..."
Power of suggestion is very...powerful, unfortunately that's not good enough for me in order to form a solid opinion. Contextually speaking, he set up Bryan vs Boro, and set up Reid twice last night.
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
I agree with this assessment of Cav. I don't think he is a very good player overall. He has had a couple of nice games, but usually tries to do too much on his own, loses possession, and also when attempting a pass tends to miss most of those. He does bring some pace and does work hard, but his overall value is suspect, and I think we just extended his contract so he'll be here for awhile.
Quote from: WindyCity on January 23, 2020, 06:39:56 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
I agree with this assessment of Cav. I don't think he is a very good player overall. He has had a couple of nice games, but usually tries to do too much on his own, loses possession, and also when attempting a pass tends to miss most of those. He does bring some pace and does work hard, but his overall value is suspect, and I think we just extended his contract so he'll be here for awhile.
Besides Mitrovic, which of our players are better than Cavaleiro in your opinion?
I'm amazed at how critical we are on here of our players -often undeservedly in my opinion.
For me, Cairney has done many good things in the last two games. keeping possession, searching for openings with his astute passes, and actually setting up goals - against Boro, and good chances for Reid last night, as Matt says. His calm and self -assurance in possession rubs off on the team, when trying to break down packed defences.
But agree he may be struggling for full fitness.
While Cav has consistently impressed with his desire, work rate and undoubted skill. OK,. so everything he tries doesn't come off - but that's because he's on the ball so much , trying so much to make things happen.
I just think the criticism is well over the top for so called supporters of the club.
Too much emphasis on the negative!
We didn't lose last night but got a well fought away point against a team who parked the bus, and are still third.
:doh:
If TC does what he usually does now (protects the ball, keeps things moving, passes well) and were to do so faster, and track back more, and shoot more often and be more aggressive in a controlled way, he'd probably be playing in a mid table Prem team.
Quote from: St. Andrews White on January 23, 2020, 11:45:30 AM
Heard from someone on another post that Cairney has been playing through an injury and probably needs an op, so I'll give him credit for playing rather than give him grief
Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
I read the same. It would explain a lot.
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 23, 2020, 06:23:10 PM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on January 23, 2020, 05:48:17 PM
Your response Pimlico in some ways illustrates their point.
There is a bias with TC and due to past achievements (fully to his credit), he gets less scrutiny than others - IMO.
I completely disagree. I think he gets way more than a fair share of criticism by many posters. In my opinion he was far from our worst player yesterday, and almost never is but still he got his own thread criticizing him. But I haven't really noticed people not being allowed to criticize him. Disagreement is another thing, but that should be expected on a forum.
I would say that his past achievements are working against him rather than for him at the moment, as he seems to be held to a much higher standard than some players.
Have to agree, when I watched Fulham I noticed Tom Cairney's drop off in performance, but he was still better than some other players.
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
as far as the stats for assists are concerned it is a stat that impresses me not.
when in possesion he runs with the ball, and more often than not goes down blind alleys and fails to release th ball early enough either losing possesion way too often. he has undoubted talent and frustates the hell out of me because he is totally underachieving playing for himself way too often and not thinking enough about the team. His work ethic is unquestionable but at the moment he would be best served on the bench just as knock was, he will come back a much better player when he realises his place is not assured.
I did not really think that it would be quite so necessary to spell out the blindingly obvious.
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 23, 2020, 06:23:10 PM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on January 23, 2020, 05:48:17 PM
Your response Pimlico in some ways illustrates their point.
There is a bias with TC and due to past achievements (fully to his credit), he gets less scrutiny than others - IMO.
I completely disagree. I think he gets way more than a fair share of criticism by many posters. In my opinion he was far from our worst player yesterday, and almost never is but still he got his own thread criticizing him. But I haven't really noticed people not being allowed to criticize him. Disagreement is another thing, but that should be expected on a forum.
I would say that his past achievements are working against him rather than for him at the moment, as he seems to be held to a much higher standard than some players.
I don't necessarily mean just on this forum - elsewhere too. That is my opinion of what I have seen at least.
Like it or not, he is the Captain so he gets more eyes on him. He is also a player who is at the very top of pay and has the most potential to control games on his own, so rightly, that comes with certain expectations.
It would be great if he could return to form of 17 and early 18, but with that being so long ago I don't know if that is possible. If it is, we have reason to be excited for the next few months. If not, maybe less so.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on January 22, 2020, 10:17:53 PM
Not in his best form but when he is he is the best midfielder in this league. I'm happy to give him the benefit of the doubt for a fair while longer.
yes me too
I'm finding his form downturn strange , he's been so good seasons before.
Just had a look at some pages on the net,one is This is Futbol(whatever that means) and Tom getting plenty of stick,posts of should be dropped,stripped of captaincy, one assist against Derby in October,needs to be sold....lol
Are they really Fulham fans,twitter accounts by the look of it.
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
as far as the stats for assists are concerned it is a stat that impresses me not.
when in possesion he runs with the ball, and more often than not goes down blind alleys and fails to release th ball early enough either losing possesion way too often. he has undoubted talent and frustates the hell out of me because he is totally underachieving playing for himself way too often and not thinking enough about the team. His work ethic is unquestionable but at the moment he would be best served on the bench just as knock was, he will come back a much better player when he realises his place is not assured.
I did not really think that it would be quite so necessary to spell out the blindingly obvious.
I appreciate someone attempting to use a less generic approach, but I can't say I've seen him "go down blind alleys" recently. Do you have an example? Genuinely asking because I play particular attention to TC's dribbling and vision. He wasn't dispossessed against Charlton or Boro either. He made one or two bad passes, primarily miscommunication ones, such as the one that was played wide to Bryan or BDR, who looked to both go for it, then give up.
I do not disagree with the fact he may need time on the bench. However, before the Boro match, he hadn't played since home to Stoke.
Again, thanks for being more descriptive, but I'm still struggling to see where the criticism is validated overall.
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
Except Hull a couple of weeks ago.
:doh:
And Reading the week before.
:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
Quote from: Matt10 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:20 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
as far as the stats for assists are concerned it is a stat that impresses me not.
when in possesion he runs with the ball, and more often than not goes down blind alleys and fails to release th ball early enough either losing possesion way too often. he has undoubted talent and frustates the hell out of me because he is totally underachieving playing for himself way too often and not thinking enough about the team. His work ethic is unquestionable but at the moment he would be best served on the bench just as knock was, he will come back a much better player when he realises his place is not assured.
I did not really think that it would be quite so necessary to spell out the blindingly obvious.
I appreciate someone attempting to use a less generic approach, but I can't say I've seen him "go down blind alleys" recently. Do you have an example? Genuinely asking because I play particular attention to TC's dribbling and vision. He wasn't dispossessed against Charlton or Boro either. He made one or two bad passes, primarily miscommunication ones, such as the one that was played wide to Bryan or BDR, who looked to both go for it, then give up.
I do not disagree with the fact he may need time on the bench. However, before the Boro match, he hadn't played since home to Stoke.
Again, thanks for being more descriptive, but I'm still struggling to see where the criticism is validated overall.
Notwithstanding the thread title, this chain of posts is about Cavaleiro, not TC
Quote from: Statto on January 24, 2020, 01:10:10 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:20 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
as far as the stats for assists are concerned it is a stat that impresses me not.
when in possesion he runs with the ball, and more often than not goes down blind alleys and fails to release th ball early enough either losing possesion way too often. he has undoubted talent and frustates the hell out of me because he is totally underachieving playing for himself way too often and not thinking enough about the team. His work ethic is unquestionable but at the moment he would be best served on the bench just as knock was, he will come back a much better player when he realises his place is not assured.
I did not really think that it would be quite so necessary to spell out the blindingly obvious.
I appreciate someone attempting to use a less generic approach, but I can't say I've seen him "go down blind alleys" recently. Do you have an example? Genuinely asking because I play particular attention to TC's dribbling and vision. He wasn't dispossessed against Charlton or Boro either. He made one or two bad passes, primarily miscommunication ones, such as the one that was played wide to Bryan or BDR, who looked to both go for it, then give up.
I do not disagree with the fact he may need time on the bench. However, before the Boro match, he hadn't played since home to Stoke.
Again, thanks for being more descriptive, but I'm still struggling to see where the criticism is validated overall.
Notwithstanding the thread title, this chain of posts is about Cavaleiro, not TC
Haha, well crap - my bad! @ALG01 disregard my lack of morning coffee then. Thanks Statto lol
Quote from: Matt10 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:20 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
as far as the stats for assists are concerned it is a stat that impresses me not.
when in possesion he runs with the ball, and more often than not goes down blind alleys and fails to release th ball early enough either losing possesion way too often. he has undoubted talent and frustates the hell out of me because he is totally underachieving playing for himself way too often and not thinking enough about the team. His work ethic is unquestionable but at the moment he would be best served on the bench just as knock was, he will come back a much better player when he realises his place is not assured.
I did not really think that it would be quite so necessary to spell out the blindingly obvious.
I appreciate someone attempting to use a less generic approach, but I can't say I've seen him "go down blind alleys" recently. Do you have an example? Genuinely asking because I play particular attention to TC's dribbling and vision. He wasn't dispossessed against Charlton or Boro either. He made one or two bad passes, primarily miscommunication ones, such as the one that was played wide to Bryan or BDR, who looked to both go for it, then give up.
I do not disagree with the fact he may need time on the bench. However, before the Boro match, he hadn't played since home to Stoke.
Again, thanks for being more descriptive, but I'm still struggling to see where the criticism is validated overall.
Love TC, clearly being played out of position and is our best player by a country mile.He was though poor second half V charlton with uncustomary misplaced passes
I was talking about cav, I am not sure if that was clear.
IMO cav goes down the blind alleys, TC does not.
I will dip out here because I think i have confused everyone and probably myself too!
:-)
Quote from: ALG01 on January 24, 2020, 01:51:36 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:20 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 11:03:42 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 12:22:27 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Massively out of position a la ranieri, we needed to get arter off and drp tc deeper... his best position.
Totally wasted so advanced, parker showed zero imagination in how to cope with difficult circumstances.
As far as cav is concerned, now there is a serial wate of space, he is genuinely pointless.
not entirely if you're taking the piss or not
no i am serious, cav is a hard worker, seems a noce bloke but has preciouse little end product. loses possesion over nd over needlesly, always has to do something fancy dan, does not make the best of his ability and generally is a massive under achiever. i know the popular view is otherwise but frankly i am very underwhelned and can see why wolves have let him go
He's our second top scorer and top assist provider. He's been involved in (scored or assisted) significantly more goals than any player except Mitrovic. How is that "precious little end product"?
he was good at first cutting in from the left and getting his shots away.
the opposition woke up to that and stop him easilly now
as far as the stats for assists are concerned it is a stat that impresses me not.
when in possesion he runs with the ball, and more often than not goes down blind alleys and fails to release th ball early enough either losing possesion way too often. he has undoubted talent and frustates the hell out of me because he is totally underachieving playing for himself way too often and not thinking enough about the team. His work ethic is unquestionable but at the moment he would be best served on the bench just as knock was, he will come back a much better player when he realises his place is not assured.
I did not really think that it would be quite so necessary to spell out the blindingly obvious.
I appreciate someone attempting to use a less generic approach, but I can't say I've seen him "go down blind alleys" recently. Do you have an example? Genuinely asking because I play particular attention to TC's dribbling and vision. He wasn't dispossessed against Charlton or Boro either. He made one or two bad passes, primarily miscommunication ones, such as the one that was played wide to Bryan or BDR, who looked to both go for it, then give up.
I do not disagree with the fact he may need time on the bench. However, before the Boro match, he hadn't played since home to Stoke.
Again, thanks for being more descriptive, but I'm still struggling to see where the criticism is validated overall.
Love TC, clearly being played out of position and is our best player by a country mile.He was though poor second half V charlton with uncustomary misplaced passes
I was talking about cav, I am not sure if that was clear.
IMO cav goes down the blind alleys, TC does not.
I will dip out here because I think i have confused everyone and probably myself too!
:-)
Haha, I should too then. I agree about Cav though regarding the blind alleys. He dribbles at times when he should pass, and passes when he should dribble. His attitude and desire are there though, so I'm good with it. Wish some teams wouldn't have figured out his cut inside move and shoot though - exactly how you said. They started bringing back their defensive midfielders so deep and even relinquished width, which is why we started to get a lot more crosses off lately. The Charlton match was less cross-filled because it seemed that the players felt less confident to send a high cross to BDR - imagine that :)
See, I tried to recover!
The only thing I will say re the Charlton game was 4 central midfielders on the pitch that didn't seem aright and I think it affected our performance greatly.
Given No Mitrovic, Knockeart or AK, would have made sense (and I hate this formation) to go 5-3-2 and use Reid and Cav through the middle with a licence to roam wide with Onomah running in from midfield.
I would have gone
Rodak
Christie
Hector
Ream
Odoi / Kongolo (not sure if Kongolo had time to settle in with the team)
Bryan
KMac
TC
Onomah
Reid
Cav
Will also say I thought Arter walked a very tight line booking wise, seemed on the edge all the time
Quote from: junior white on January 24, 2020, 02:44:50 PM
The only thing I will say re the Charlton game was 4 central midfielders on the pitch that didn't seem aright and I think it affected our performance greatly.
Given No Mitrovic, Knockeart or AK, would have made sense (and I hate this formation) to go 5-3-2 and use Reid and Cav through the middle with a licence to roam wide with Onomah running in from midfield.
I would have gone
Rodak
Christie
Hector
Ream
Odoi / Kongolo (not sure if Kongolo had time to settle in with the team)
Bryan
KMac
TC
Onomah
Reid
Cav
Will also say I thought Arter walked a very tight line booking wise, seemed on the edge all the time
Yes JW I pondered that selection.
In hindsight I didn't see much from After to justify his selection..
Quote from: Statto on January 23, 2020, 06:50:41 PM
Quote from: WindyCity on January 23, 2020, 06:39:56 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 23, 2020, 12:16:56 AM
Quote from: southwest6 on January 22, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Quote from: ALG01 on January 22, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
Besides Mitrovic, which of our players are better than Cavaleiro in your opinion?
Ok, fair question, based on my (as well as others) critique of Cav. TBH, I don't think we have seen any one individual (save Mitro) really come to the fore, based on this sides very inconsistent season so far. Some have had a very good game here or there, and I have acknowledged that even Cav has had some good outings. I think if I had to single players out as being the best contributors so far to FFC's place in the standings, outside of Mitro, I might say Rodak and Reid. But, I'm sure those two selections could be debated. A very inconsistent team, very inconsistent individual performances so far this season.