Friends of Fulham

Just want to do a poll on this. Given the option of sacking him tonight, are you Parker in or Parker out?

I think we're destined for playoffs regardless. So Id give him until the end of the season. If he fails at playoffs then he must go. I'd only sack him tonight if we were in real danger of missing out on playoffs, which we aren't

How about if Parker out a replacement is mentioned too? I'm Parker in by the way!

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Quote from: MikeCdawg on February 15, 2020, 07:25:42 PM
I think we're destined for playoffs regardless. So Id give him until the end of the season. If he fails at playoffs then he must go. I'd only sack him tonight if we were in real danger of missing out on playoffs, which we aren't

I was considering an option for 'out at the end of the season' but decided against it to force people to make a snap decision. I am mostly in agreement with you, apart from I am so bored of watching us play that I just want a change regardless.

Making the playoffs but not getting promoted would by no means be a success. I have no doubt we will get soundly beaten in the playoffs, but I feel it will be enough to keep Parker in the job. I also feel Parker believes that is good enough.

Out btw. Played off the pitch by the bottom placed team

OUT

When you have 33 matches worth of evidence that he's performing poorly, why would you wait until 46, 48 or 49 matches for the failure to be confirmed before making a change? We're fortunate we still have a shot at salvaging promotion.

Quote from: Denver Fulham on February 15, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
When you have 33 matches worth of evidence that he's performing poorly, why would you wait until 46, 48 or 49 matches for the failure to be confirmed before making a change? We're fortunate we still have a shot at salvaging promotion.

Bang on, get rid before its too late.

I remain in the Parker IN camp, despite today and some other like-for-like performances. We're still in 3rd, 1 win behind Leeds in 2nd. I still like Parker, his style is too slow though... this better be the wake up call.

Quote from: Denver Fulham on February 15, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
When you have 33 matches worth of evidence that he's performing poorly, why would you wait until 46, 48 or 49 matches for the failure to be confirmed before making a change? We're fortunate we still have a shot at salvaging promotion.

I just don't think there's enough time for a new manager to come in and push us forward. A month ago, maybe. But there weren't many calling for Parker's head at that rime

Quote from: OhConnah on February 15, 2020, 07:43:33 PM
I remain in the Parker IN camp, despite today and some other like-for-like performances. We're still in 3rd, 1 win behind Leeds in 2nd. I still like Parker, his style is too slow though... this better be the wake up call.

There's too many games that should have been the wake up call unfortunately.

Quote from: Denver Fulham on February 15, 2020, 07:40:28 PM
When you have 33 matches worth of evidence that he's performing poorly, why would you wait until 46, 48 or 49 matches for the failure to be confirmed before making a change? We're fortunate we still have a shot at salvaging promotion.

It's a large enough sample, I agree. If we were improving then I'd be more lenient, but we have only improved defensively because Hector is incredible, and despite today Rodak has been immense in goal and saved us many points in games we were outplayed.

So long as we're in the playoff spots, he will stay. We are underperforming, but not that badly to warrant a panic.

We are not one win behind Leeds.  Our goal difference means we require 4-points more points than them to overtake them.

It has been grim viewing all season.  Apart from Millwall at home.  Shalid says in his programme notes today "we're grinding out favourable results".  Well we did not today.  It was truly woeful but unfortunately not an isolated match.  The performance followed on from the poor showing on Wednesday.  There have been more dour and dreary performances this season than entertaining ones.  Snatching points from these games has resulted in most of us shrugging our shoulders and accepting "it must be ok then".

I am shocked that we are still third in the table and extremely disappointed that today we again failed to show the required intensity (Parker's own words from his press conference, not mine).  Second best all over the park and Parker says he never saw it coming.  I manage a team of people and if they performed as we did today and I said that to my boss I'd be collecting my P45.

 

Shake him all about

The loan players we signed permanent in the window told me that we are aiming for a couple of years in the championship. None of this team are either good enough for the Premier league or want to play in it. We have become too comfortable for them.

Parker didn't see it coming.... I did.

Hopefully in the Motspur Park complex tonight there is a single office light on with just two cars in the car park.  Only one car will leave, the other recipient will leave his keys and get a final taxi home.

I have felt all season that we have to give Parker a fare crack of the whip and keep him until the end of the season. However today's performance was terrible and a lot of others recently have been poor. Our attack are just not bothering opposing defences.

However there is just a remote chance of play offs whereas it is difficult to see what a new manager could achieve in only 13 matches. I think we have to stay with Parker although the rest of the season could be painful.

Quote from: Dodger53 on February 15, 2020, 08:27:15 PM
The loan players we signed permanent in the window told me that we are aiming for a couple of years in the championship. None of this team are either good enough for the Premier league or want to play in it. We have become too comfortable for them.

Amongst fellow season tickets at the back of H7 we have been talking about this too.  Team of average and above average Championship players comfortable to be winning more games than than they lose and being paid reasonably for their time. 

Their incentive if we go up? Out of their depth in Premiership, benched, squad player or sold.  Hardly likely to motivate them to put a shift in to get the club promoted.

We need players hungry to prove themselves, battle and survive in the Premiership.

We need players hungry to prove themselves, battle and survive in the Premiership.


People like Oliver Norwood  maybe?

We've had a year to assess him and I'm just not impressed. Even in the highly unlikely event that we went up I'd still have no confidence in him for next season.

Get rid now (and give Gray a crack at the play-offs) or as soon the season's over. 

I'm struggling to remember any games that we've really played well, unless you happen to combine the two 1st halves of Milwall and Boro at home.

Beyond that Parker just doesn't come across with any vibrancy does he, he's a hard man to get behind.

It's such a shame as we've addressed some of the mistakes behind the scenes this time around (including purchase options in loans, removing the big money flops of last season, bringing back Stuart Gray)

Quote from: MikeW on February 15, 2020, 08:45:50 PM
Hopefully in the Motspur Park complex tonight there is a single office light on with just two cars in the car park.  Only one car will leave, the other recipient will leave his keys and get a final taxi home.

So who have you got lined up? Pep?

Quote from: elgreenio on February 15, 2020, 10:17:46 PM
I'm struggling to remember any games that we've really played well, unless you happen to combine the two 1st halves of Milwall and Boro at home.

Beyond that Parker just doesn't come across with any vibrancy does he, he's a hard man to get behind.

It's such a shame as we've addressed some of the mistakes behind the scenes this time around (including purchase options in loans, removing the big money flops of last season, bringing back Stuart Gray)

Still in 3rd place and only 3 points behind Leeds..the way people talk it's as if we are in the relegation zone. As to the land of milk and honey, did any of us enjoy last year in the Prem?

Quote from: KingofCheese on February 15, 2020, 10:20:27 PM

Quote from: MikeW on February 15, 2020, 08:45:50 PM
Hopefully in the Motspur Park complex tonight there is a single office light on with just two cars in the car park.  Only one car will leave, the other recipient will leave his keys and get a final taxi home.

So who have you got lined up? Pep?

Anyone but Parker.

Quote from: KingofCheese on February 15, 2020, 10:22:14 PM
[quote author=elgreenio link=topic=74653.msg1118290#msg1118290 date=1581805066

I'm struggling to remember any games that we've really played well, unless you happen to combine the two 1st halves of Milwall and Boro at home.

Beyond that Parker just doesn't come across with any vibrancy does he, he's a hard man to get behind.

It's such a shame as we've addressed some of the mistakes behind the scenes this time around (including purchase options in loans, removing the big money flops of last season, bringing back Stuart Gray)

Still in 3rd place and only 3 points behind Leeds..the way people talk it's as if we are in the relegation zone. As to the land of milk and honey, did any of us enjoy last year in the Prem?
[/quote]
So are you enjoying watching negative football every week?

Quote from: KingofCheese on February 15, 2020, 10:22:14 PM

Quote from: elgreenio on February 15, 2020, 10:17:46 PM
I'm struggling to remember any games that we've really played well, unless you happen to combine the two 1st halves of Milwall and Boro at home.

Beyond that Parker just doesn't come across with any vibrancy does he, he's a hard man to get behind.

It's such a shame as we've addressed some of the mistakes behind the scenes this time around (including purchase options in loans, removing the big money flops of last season, bringing back Stuart Gray)

Still in 3rd place and only 3 points behind Leeds..the way people talk it's as if we are in the relegation zone. As to the land of milk and honey, did any of us enjoy last year in the Prem?

it's a very weird feeling, looking at the table in disbelief, "how the hell are we still in this position".

Personally no I didnt enjoy it in the prem, but i'd much rather be there than the championship that's for sure. And right now it doesn't feel like we're going to get there looking at the way we've played the last two games especially adding in the state of our run-in. Fully expect us to go and win at Elland Road and the Hawthorns now :D

I'm out on him. Never wanted him in first place, felt the decision to bring him in after a couple of results when we'd been relegated and there was no pressure on the players/manager at the time was a mistake.

The team is set up how he played, crab sideways football. The team are far to ponderous in transition from defense to attack

We may have the possession but most of the time the opposition have the chances/shots on target. That tells me that we have a mantra to be to cautious and pass pass pass without getting it forward quickly. It allows opposition teams to set up ready to pounce on a mistake that does tend to happen.

Parker's brand of football just doesn't entertain, it's turgid and predictable.
Win, loose or draw it always the same.

Quote from: KingofCheese on February 15, 2020, 10:20:27 PM

Quote from: MikeW on February 15, 2020, 08:45:50 PM
Hopefully in the Motspur Park complex tonight there is a single office light on with just two cars in the car park.  Only one car will leave, the other recipient will leave his keys and get a final taxi home.

So who have you got lined up? Pep?

Let's be brutally honest, even Tony Khan probably wouldn't perform much worse... Or Margot Robbie, Joaquin Phoenix, anyway who fancies a stab at it really. He is getting literally the minimum output from the current playing squad. We are where we are (as in not bottom of the table) because of the resources available to him. He is underperforming. Massively.

Who comes in depends on if, or how long, the owners have been considering other options. Failing that, I'd feel that Stuart Gray could step into the caretaker role and get more from the squad until the end of the season (during the play offs).

Hungry to prove themselves, with desire and appetite and ambition with the will to win. Something currently not in the clubs manual of regulations.

Quote from: elgreenio on February 15, 2020, 10:17:46 PM
I'm struggling to remember any games that we've really played well, unless you happen to combine the two 1st halves of Milwall and Boro at home.

Beyond that Parker just doesn't come across with any vibrancy does he, he's a hard man to get behind.

It's such a shame as we've addressed some of the mistakes behind the scenes this time around (including purchase options in loans, removing the big money flops of last season, bringing back Stuart Gray)

Yeah, that has been my problem with him. There were signs of an idea early in the season, but it has ended up being just play it around and hope for some individual brilliance to get a goal and then battening the hatches for the final 20 minutes.

There are worse managers no doubt, but I don't get what Parker actually brings to the table. He'll be staying for the rest of the season though.

Quote from: KingofCheese on February 15, 2020, 10:22:14 PM

Quote from: elgreenio on February 15, 2020, 10:17:46 PM
I'm struggling to remember any games that we've really played well, unless you happen to combine the two 1st halves of Milwall and Boro at home.

Beyond that Parker just doesn't come across with any vibrancy does he, he's a hard man to get behind.

It's such a shame as we've addressed some of the mistakes behind the scenes this time around (including purchase options in loans, removing the big money flops of last season, bringing back Stuart Gray)

Still in 3rd place and only 3 points behind Leeds..the way people talk it's as if we are in the relegation zone. As to the land of milk and honey, did any of us enjoy last year in the Prem?

If you can't see we are underperforming for the squad we have then something is wrong, some people may be happy with the current manager doing the bare minimum with the squad at his disposal, but some realize that the end product we are producing is just not good enough.

What will it take for the SP supporters to realise he simply isn't good enough to coach at this level. We were outplayed on all level against the bottom placed side. A side that may well be playing League 1 next season. For those who argue our current 3rd position on the ladder, we may as well be 21st as we are not going to win the play offs should we make them. Change is needed. 'Doing the same thing yet expecting different outcome' springs to mind. 13 games remain. There is time to rectify this mess. SP out please.

"Destined for play-offs" ???

We have a three point cushion with Derby away on Friday

Dream on

There is no doubt that squad for squad there should be no better team than us.
I've watched most of our games from over here in Florida.
I have seen a few teams against us much better, eg  Brentford and Barnsley today.
And a few teams who are worse or (like Barnsley) were better trained for it.
With regard today, we actually weren't too bad for effort, but here was no "class" or desire
that we should expect from this squad
We were completely overrun, particularly in midfield, it almost seemed that they has 13 players on the pitch.
When we actually got the ball in their box there were some many players with so much desire to keep us out
But....
By the time we started doing this it was too late.
Our defence has been great for a few games, I think our subs and tactics completely blew it for us.
We were still 'in it' at 1-0 and 2-0,,however............
Our initial selection and tactics + subs were quite honestly bizarre.
It was a wet, slippery pitch and yet we didn't 'run at them'
Whoever advises the players on what studs they wore should be out of a job.
One bad game from Rodak shouldn't relegate him, he was left exposed, but made a couple of wrong decisions.

One of those games.

But, I think it's time for Scott to move on.
If you can't design the tactics for this squad to win (easily) against far better prepared opposition, then
you shouldn't be in his job.
I'm sorry, I like the guy, but NO

The team needs motivating for the last few games,
Bring in a motivator

Think we have given him enuf time. Change required.

I don't get the argument that Parker is doing a good job cos we are third. Given the squad we have, we should be leading the pack. We are underperforming and i put that down to the parker.

Going by how we have been playing, We will not get promoted even if we make the playoff.

Experienced manager in the championship will be required.

Academic question.  I think we could do a lot better than Parker and never understood why you invest so much in players but so little in a coach/manager.  Clearly the Khans have a huge amount of time for Parker so it's incredibly unlikely that they will sack him, esp with the club 3rd in the league.  I am not totally sure they would sack him if we were as low as 10th.

For me Parker strengths are his attempts to get the basics right, attitude, discipline, that sort of thing, but tactically and creatively he is weak and lacks imagination.   It's his first job and his safety first attitude is completely understandable.  I would however have thought the Khans would want better than that.

One thing that could be behind things are that the Khans are not as desperate for promotion this season as they say.  Maybe they want the football team given more stability and then to get promotion once the stand is nearer completion next season.  Maybe this is a trial season for Parker, that would all at least make some kind of sense to me.

Having such a high caliber playing squad that must me using up all FFP allowance yet such a lowly qualifies manager and coach is frankly odd.

Quote from: Dodger53 on February 15, 2020, 08:28:20 PM
Parker didn't see it coming.... I did.

I did too ! Last two matches were awful: 1st half against Millwall and match against Blackburn. Blackburn going forward were that weak and MOTM was Hector ???????!!!!!!!!? Somethings wrong.

The players are not running for him and he's lost the dressing-room IMO

I'm afraid you can all yapper on about it till the cows come home,there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table.

Parker wont be sacked over this match. But we will not forget it.

This weekend was when Parker lost the support. The team were awful

That is down to him, he set them up wrongly, they were not at all prepared for the windy conditions, they had no game plan, only McDonald realised that short , quick passing on the ground would undo the oppo and Parker took him off. No wonder the subs were booed, it was a terrible decision. Arter added nothing, in fact made us much worse as we were open at the back.

Parker's man management and grasp of basic tactics is completely lacking. Having two wingers just does not work, playing high balls to Mitro in that wind was pathetic and so stooopid.Failing to create one proper attack in the first half was useless. The selection of Sess not Odoi, a real error, not playing someone alongside Mitro is week in, week out a mistake. Failing to fire the players up, trying to be "cool" all the time. Not using a long throw from AK before, all just elementary rubbish.

We surprise no one, we break so slowly, we play Cairney wrongly. Cav does one thing again and again.All so predictable and worst home performance in 40 years...anyone remember a worse one ?

"there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table"

And no way they should.

Several points.

First, we know our team better than 99% of us know any of the other Championship teams, which may give a distorted impression of how good we are relative to others. I do not buy into the idea that we have the best squad and ought to be leading the pack. I do buy into the oft-stated comment that the table doesn't lie.

Second, in August had I been told we would be third in mid February and still mathematically with every chance of an automatic promotion spot and very likely to make the play offs, I would have accepted that in a heartbeat

Third, I've supported the Club long enough to have seen someone who started with us go on to be arguably the most outstanding English club manager of the last fifty years get the push because of seemingly disappointing results - Bobby Robson. I have no idea whether Scott Parker will prove to be anywhere near as good as Bobby proved, but all new managers need to learn on the job.

Fourth, it has been an uneven season but at times we have looked totally brilliant, and at other times exactly the opposite. I have no issue with SP's basic approach but he and the players need to reflect on this unevenness. Partly of course due to the opposition and learning that we can't just assume they will let us play as we like but need to be able to adapt. And how to adapt in the here and now of a match is one of the things one hopes comes with experience.

So my conclusion follows, I hope logically, from the above. SP stays, hopefully learning all the time, we continue to get some good and some less good results, and probably make the play offs. But if we are fortunate enough to go up, does anyone here really believe that we won't struggle next season? As we found out last time, spending money guarantees nothing. And then we had a more seasoned manager whom now some of the Parker out supporters would happily have back. It may be that WBA offer a model. Didn't quite make is last year but look better for it, easily the most consistent side in the Championship and maybe they will "stick" if promoted (though I personally wouldn't bank on it).

As a final and separate but not wholly unrelated point, spending limits really damage the chances of potential Premiership clubs like us getting and staying there. We can't assemble in the Championship an "oven ready" team for the Premiership. So even when there are the resources should we be promoted we will be buying in July and August players we hope will keep us in the Premiership with little time for them to bed in. All promoted clubs thus start with a handicap compared to those already there. But, as anyone over the age of about seventeen knows, socialistic measures are often well intentioned but always have dire consequences.

Quote from: Mince n Tatties on February 16, 2020, 07:26:58 AM
I'm afraid you can all yapper on about it till the cows come home,there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table.

This

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 08:42:18 AM
"there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table"

And no way they should.

Several points.

First, we know our team better than 99% of us know any of the other Championship teams, which may give a distorted impression of how good we are relative to others. I do not buy into the idea that we have the best squad and ought to be leading the pack. I do buy into the oft-stated comment that the table doesn't lie.

Second, in August had I been told we would be third in mid February and still mathematically with every chance of an automatic promotion spot and very likely to make the play offs, I would have accepted that in a heartbeat

Third, I've supported the Club long enough to have seen someone who started with us go on to be arguably the most outstanding English club manager of the last fifty years get the push because of seemingly disappointing results - Bobby Robson. I have no idea whether Scott Parker will prove to be anywhere near as good as Bobby proved, but all new managers need to learn on the job.

Fourth, it has been an uneven season but at times we have looked totally brilliant, and at other times exactly the opposite. I have no issue with SP's basic approach but he and the players need to reflect on this unevenness. Partly of course due to the opposition and learning that we can't just assume they will let us play as we like but need to be able to adapt. And how to adapt in the here and now of a match is one of the things one hopes comes with experience.

So my conclusion follows, I hope logically, from the above. SP stays, hopefully learning all the time, we continue to get some good and some less good results, and probably make the play offs. But if we are fortunate enough to go up, does anyone here really believe that we won't struggle next season? As we found out last time, spending money guarantees nothing. And then we had a more seasoned manager whom now some of the Parker out supporters would happily have back. It may be that WBA offer a model. Didn't quite make is last year but look better for it, easily the most consistent side in the Championship and maybe they will "stick" if promoted (though I personally wouldn't bank on it).

As a final and separate but not wholly unrelated point, spending limits really damage the chances of potential Premiership clubs like us getting and staying there. We can't assemble in the Championship an "oven ready" team for the Premiership. So even when there are the resources should we be promoted we will be buying in July and August players we hope will keep us in the Premiership with little time for them to bed in. All promoted clubs thus start with a handicap compared to those already there. But, as anyone over the age of about seventeen knows, socialistic measures are often well intentioned but always have dire consequences.

did anyone bother to tell Sheffield United about their handicap, as they seem to be ignoring it

Quote from: Mince n Tatties on February 16, 2020, 07:26:58 AM
I'm afraid you can all yapper on about it till the cows come home,there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table.

If you are looking for your shed mince, it has just landed in my back garden

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 16, 2020, 08:49:46 AM

Quote from: Mince n Tatties on February 16, 2020, 07:26:58 AM
I'm afraid you can all yapper on about it till the cows come home,there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table.

If you are looking for your shed mince, it has just landed in my back garden

Was the wife inside,as she's done a runner after
the mood I was in last night after yesterday debacle...lol
The neighborhood thought there was a werewolf on the loose hearing me howling.😊

Quote from: OhConnah on February 15, 2020, 07:43:33 PM
I remain in the Parker IN camp, despite today and some other like-for-like performances. We're still in 3rd, 1 win behind Leeds in 2nd. I still like Parker, his style is too slow though... this better be the wake up call.

Is that not the issue? We have been self evidently unable to gel as a team rather than talented individuals. The build up is so slow that other teams know what to expect and put in the low block. Knockaert and Cavaliero both have to start from standing start instead of quick ball ahead of them and then turn in so we are always so narrow. How many times do we see us start on the edge of the opposition box and the ball ends up back at Rodak? Too slow, too predictable and not enough pace. If we get ripped apart by Barnsley, Hull, Forest and Luton how on earth will they survive in the Premiership?
I actually think within 4 next games we will be outside of playoffs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: fulhamben on February 16, 2020, 08:47:09 AM

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 08:42:18 AM
"there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table"

And no way they should.

Several points.

First, we know our team better than 99% of us know any of the other Championship teams, which may give a distorted impression of how good we are relative to others. I do not buy into the idea that we have the best squad and ought to be leading the pack. I do buy into the oft-stated comment that the table doesn't lie.

Second, in August had I been told we would be third in mid February and still mathematically with every chance of an automatic promotion spot and very likely to make the play offs, I would have accepted that in a heartbeat

Third, I've supported the Club long enough to have seen someone who started with us go on to be arguably the most outstanding English club manager of the last fifty years get the push because of seemingly disappointing results - Bobby Robson. I have no idea whether Scott Parker will prove to be anywhere near as good as Bobby proved, but all new managers need to learn on the job.

Fourth, it has been an uneven season but at times we have looked totally brilliant, and at other times exactly the opposite. I have no issue with SP's basic approach but he and the players need to reflect on this unevenness. Partly of course due to the opposition and learning that we can't just assume they will let us play as we like but need to be able to adapt. And how to adapt in the here and now of a match is one of the things one hopes comes with experience.

So my conclusion follows, I hope logically, from the above. SP stays, hopefully learning all the time, we continue to get some good and some less good results, and probably make the play offs. But if we are fortunate enough to go up, does anyone here really believe that we won't struggle next season? As we found out last time, spending money guarantees nothing. And then we had a more seasoned manager whom now some of the Parker out supporters would happily have back. It may be that WBA offer a model. Didn't quite make is last year but look better for it, easily the most consistent side in the Championship and maybe they will "stick" if promoted (though I personally wouldn't bank on it).

As a final and separate but not wholly unrelated point, spending limits really damage the chances of potential Premiership clubs like us getting and staying there. We can't assemble in the Championship an "oven ready" team for the Premiership. So even when there are the resources should we be promoted we will be buying in July and August players we hope will keep us in the Premiership with little time for them to bed in. All promoted clubs thus start with a handicap compared to those already there. But, as anyone over the age of about seventeen knows, socialistic measures are often well intentioned but always have dire consequences.

did anyone bother to tell Sheffield United about their handicap, as they seem to be ignoring it

Bang on. Sheffield United have a great manager who gets his players over-achieving, fired up, organised and willing to run through walls to get results, all the things Parker isn't basically.

Said In....... because I don't think he will get the sack from the Khans for starters.

But I think we could drop out of Play Off's by seasons end and if we do stay in them, just! We will lose anyway.

Concerned with team selection as others have mentioned (No Johansen at any stage of the game yesterday) and McDonald taken off and slow tempo. My biggest worry are the team behind him because if players don't like the constant team changes and tactics they become despondent. Uncle Roy used to keep a settled team and it was up to the squad to try and prise a place in that team, something in that I think!

Something must have passed me by over the years since I don't get the loyalty to Parker that apologists afford him. 

I have always watched football via performances (and not results) which gives me a high spot when we play well and lose and a low spot when we play badly and win.   The last thing I am obsessed about is league position because a bunch of other teams are scrapping for that too, but do they look as good as us when playing on the pitch?  When the answer is 'No, they don't' that is when you start to believe, the players start to believe, and everyone else connected with the game start to take notice, real notice.  You do not get token compliments, you get real respect and interest from others, and it doesn't happen very often.   This is the real thing and it isn't a capricious feeling at all.  And the achievements that come with it are just the icing on the cake. 

If Parker moves on it will not break my heart or even cause me sorrow, and, at the moment, it will even feel like a breath of fresh air as the stench of ordinariness fades away.  Of course it'll take a while for the new face to allow you to glimpse the promise or the dread to come, but throughout this, you are entitled to feel optimistic.   When you know the new guy is the real thing you actually feel the spring in your step and you hope things will stay like this for eternity.  Of course they never do but we endure all the low spots just for those infrequent visits by the real thing.       

Parker is not the real thing and it is time to move on.   How long are you going to wait until you tell him?   Now would be braver but probably nothing to be lost by delaying until the season's end.  You shouldn't ever settle for anything less than the best.

Of course the problem in all of this logic is when somebody else is arranging your partnerships for you, but, even then, it can happen.    Move on I say and sooner the better.

Quote from: Mince n Tatties on February 16, 2020, 09:07:17 AM

Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on February 16, 2020, 08:49:46 AM

Quote from: Mince n Tatties on February 16, 2020, 07:26:58 AM
I'm afraid you can all yapper on about it till the cows come home,there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table.

If you are looking for your shed mince, it has just landed in my back garden

Was the wife inside,as she's done a runner after
the mood I was in last night after yesterday debacle...lol
The neighborhood thought there was a werewolf on the loose hearing me howling.😊

I did not see your wife inside, but I saw a bloke with a wooden leg, with a patch on his eye, and a hooked arm, wearing a three cornered hat, and a parrot on his shoulder, this bloke was waiving a cutless above his head, accusing me of drinking his barrel of rum. There was also a Ventriloquist Dummy, a Skeleton holding a Fulham Season Ticket, and a Japanese prisoner of war.
Somebody had slipped a circular under your door from the Water Board informing you that there was a hose pipe ban imminent.
Apart from that there were a couple crates of Watneys Red Barrel, Lord Lucan, a 15 piece orchestra, David Icke talking to himself,  a stack of 1950s additions of the Beano. KD Lang singing I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts, and David Beckham finishing a 2 piece jig saw puzzle, and a Pole Dancer, and a hundred head of cattle.
Apart from that it was quite empty for this time of the year.

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 08:42:18 AM
"there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table"

And no way they should.

Several points.

First, we know our team better than 99% of us know any of the other Championship teams, which may give a distorted impression of how good we are relative to others. I do not buy into the idea that we have the best squad and ought to be leading the pack. I do buy into the oft-stated comment that the table doesn't lie.

Had to stop reading at "the table doesn't lie" sorry. If you believe that, then no manager could ever be criticised for underachieving. If we were 6 pts adrift at the bottom right now, Parker could just point to the table and say, "well the table doesn't lie, obviously we have the worst squad in the league so it's not my fault we're bottom." Absurd, clearly.

I'm firmly on the fence, I've never critisised him or praised him on here. Sorry boring old git.

"the table doesn't lie"

The Championship teams have now played 33 matches each. The best sides are near the top, the worst near the bottom. Individual good and bad refereeing decisions, injuries and managerial mistakes get subsumed in the totality once a significant number of matches have been played. We are not 3rd by good luck, bad luck or accident, but because the combination of our manager and our squad means we are near the best in the Championship, irrespective of individual good or bad performances

Sheffield United are not unique but the exception rather than the rule. Norwich and Aston Villa are, historically speaking, much more typical. Clubs' inability to do now what we were able to do when we were promoted the time before last is part of the reason.

What I think we can be fairly sure about is that however disappointed any of us feel about yesterday, SP will be feeling it more and having a difficult weekend as he thinks hard about what went wrong and what to do about it. It is, over time, his responses to such situations which will show whether he has the capacity to learn and improve. It is far too early in his managerial career to be pessimistic about his ability to do both.

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
the combination of our manager and our squad means we are near the best in the Championship

Exactly
The best squad in the division combined with one of the poorest managers = scraping 3rd

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
What I think we can be fairly sure about is that however disappointed any of us feel about yesterday, SP will be feeling it more and having a difficult weekend as he thinks hard about what went wrong and what to do about it.

He's had ample practice at mulling over his totally mixed performances this season with absolutely no evidence of consistency between games or even within games.  He has shown little or no evidence of being able to solve a problem without creating a bigger problem and I have struggled to understand his selections and substitutions throughout.  I have hoped his choices would be better choices than mine may have amounted to both selections and substitutions but I have been disappointed almost ninety percent of the time.  For my money he isn't learning on the job at all; he is getting worse.  I do not buy into the philosophy that injuries etc have impacted because at the times he has 'better' players available and apparently injury free he had passed them up and stuck with the same stuff that hasn't been reliable before.

Barnsley scored four goals against and zero in reply and we are responsible for giving them over one fifth of their total points this season.  Go figure.

Quote from: Statto on February 16, 2020, 12:54:59 PM

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
the combination of our manager and our squad means we are near the best in the Championship

Exactly
The best squad in the division combined with one of the poorest managers = scraping 3rd

+100

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
"the table doesn't lie"

The Championship teams have now played 33 matches each. The best sides are near the top, the worst near the bottom. Individual good and bad refereeing decisions, injuries and managerial mistakes get subsumed in the totality once a significant number of matches have been played. We are not 3rd by good luck, bad luck or accident, but because the combination of our manager and our squad means we are near the best in the Championship, irrespective of individual good or bad performances

Sheffield United are not unique but the exception rather than the rule. Norwich and Aston Villa are, historically speaking, much more typical. Clubs' inability to do now what we were able to do when we were promoted the time before last is part of the reason.

What I think we can be fairly sure about is that however disappointed any of us feel about yesterday, SP will be feeling it more and having a difficult weekend as he thinks hard about what went wrong and what to do about it. It is, over time, his responses to such situations which will show whether he has the capacity to learn and improve. It is far too early in his managerial career to be pessimistic about his ability to do both.

Agree totally with this. We had a thread, not too long ago, that I believe showed that newly promoted teams struggle in the prem in their first season.  The exceptions are those that are able to build on the first seasons survival and remain there.


Last season we saw Norwich easily win the EFL with 94 points, 5 more than Sheffield, but now we see the top team sitting firmly at the foot of the Prem, the third placed promo side just 1 point above the relegation zone and Sheffield in 5th.
The previous season saw the top team survive and the second and third teams drop immediately, the season prior all three teams survived.

It's not a given, by any measure, that teams that storm the Championship are guaranteed survival past one season in the Prem, any more than teams that just scrape through in second or third are cannot fodder either, so history shows us nothing in that regards.

Quote from: Statto on February 16, 2020, 12:54:59 PM

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 12:48:01 PM
the combination of our manager and our squad means we are near the best in the Championship

Exactly
The best squad in the division combined with one of the poorest managers = scraping 3rd

I'd really love to hear a counter to this to be honest. It's been bothering me all day/yesterday and I can't come to any other conclusion.

OUT


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Would need to know who would be the replacement, otherwise it would be a lottery.

Quote from: Statto on February 16, 2020, 11:13:35 AM

Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2020, 08:42:18 AM
"there is no way the Khans are going to sack him sitting 3rd in table"

And no way they should.

Several points.

First, we know our team better than 99% of us know any of the other Championship teams, which may give a distorted impression of how good we are relative to others. I do not buy into the idea that we have the best squad and ought to be leading the pack. I do buy into the oft-stated comment that the table doesn't lie.

Had to stop reading at "the table doesn't lie" sorry. If you believe that, then no manager could ever be criticised for underachieving. If we were 6 pts adrift at the bottom right now, Parker could just point to the table and say, "well the table doesn't lie, obviously we have the worst squad in the league so it's not my fault we're bottom." Absurd, clearly.

I can respect either opinion that the "table doesn't lie" or that the "table does lie", but if you believe the "table doesn't lie" meaning the "EFL points table" is an accurate reflection of the best team performance, then you must have another table such as "transfer market table" (or "FIFA 20 Player Ratings") to compare "team performance" to the "player valuations".

It would be stupid to compare "EFL points table" to itself as no analysis is possible, the "EFL points table" team performance must be compared to another table that estimates the squad provide to the Manager. For example, the "EPL points table" tells you that Sheffield United are better than Manchester United this season, but without another information (e.g. player wages), it would be impossible to determine who was given the better squad.

Saying "table doesn't lie" means we have we have "the best players by some distance" due to the transfer market table and "those players combined are the 3rd best team" due to the EFL points table. If I was "The Khans", then I would want Parker to tell me i) why with the best players we are the only 3rd best team? ii) why have we dropped 33 points to teams worth less than half our squad?

Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 17, 2020, 01:42:41 AM
Saying "table doesn't lie" means we have we have "the best players by some distance" due to the transfer market table and "those players combined are the 3rd best team" due to the EFL points table.

Couldn't this be so?

After all, if it were true that the XI with the greatest combined market value cannot be anything other than the best team, Mitrovic, Reid, Knockaert and Cavaleiro could play alongside seven free transfers from League 2 and we could still expect promotion. Unlikely.

Without knowing any figures, I can guess, however, that the value of our squad aside from the aforementioned quartet is still higher than most in the Championship. To me, this does show that we should be among those competing at the top; it doesn't prove that we ought to be the top side - even were we to have a more experienced manager. There must be other factors that come to bear upon a group of players becoming the best team - factors that can't be defined in terms of a monetary value. Coaching would be one such influence, of course. But West Brom (and Leeds to a lesser extent) had a decent punt at going up last season. How much is that experience worth to the Baggies this time round, I wonder?

That we have the 'best players' in the league is debatable.

Even if the highest valued, don't know if this is true, they are only third best as a TEAM.
In this sense, the important one, the table doesn't lie.

League position is also the only stat that matters, because it determines promotion or relegation.
It is also completely objective, while other figures, such as 'best players' aren't.

Quote from: RaySmith on February 17, 2020, 04:49:50 AM
That we have the 'best players' in the league is debatable.

Even if the highest valued, don't know if this is true, they are only third best as a TEAM.
In this sense, the important one, the table doesn't lie.

League position is also the only stat that matters, because it determines promotion or relegation.
It is also completely objective, while other figures, such as 'best players' aren't.

The table tells us we are "only third best as a TEAM" but nothing else, based on the table alone it is almost impossible to make any non-obvious analysis. If I show you the table from South Africa, you cannnot tell much apart from I can already know for myself by looking at it. One of the main discussion questions is Parker In or Parker Out, but the table tells us nothing about that decision. Some think 3rd is terrible based on the players we have and other think that many of the previous seasons have been worse, but the table doesn't tell us anything so while the "table doesn't lie". The "table doesn't tell you much" doesn't answer the most basic questions like is Kamara or Mitrovoic better? and definitely doesn't answer Parker In or Out?

But the 'best players' is subjective, opinions will differ, the table isn't - telling you which team has the most points - which team has performed the  best.
The measures performances purely in points gained- and this determines promotion or relegation - not bad luck or bad ref calls, etc - all subjective.

Quote from: RaySmith on February 17, 2020, 10:26:45 AM
But the 'best players' is subjective, opinions will differ, the table isn't - telling you which team has the most points - which team has performed the  best.
The measures performances purely in points gained- and this determines promotion or relegation - not bad luck or bad ref calls, etc - all subjective.

If Barcelona were sitting 12th in La Liga this season, would this suggest that its all subjective and as they are 12th, that is probably where they should be. Or, would it suggest that the manager is perhaps underperforming relative to the resources available to them?

It's an extreme hypothetical example granted, but it is a valid one. This is what is happening at Fulham on a lesser scale.

Quote from: ByTheRiver on February 17, 2020, 10:41:51 AM

Quote from: RaySmith on February 17, 2020, 10:26:45 AM
But the 'best players' is subjective, opinions will differ, the table isn't - telling you which team has the most points - which team has performed the  best.
The measures performances purely in points gained- and this determines promotion or relegation - not bad luck or bad ref calls, etc - all subjective.

If Barcelona were sitting 12th in La Liga this season, would this suggest that its all subjective and as they are 12th, that is probably where they should be. Or, would it suggest that the manager is perhaps underperforming relative to the resources available to them?

It's an extreme hypothetical example granted, but it is a valid one. This is what is happening at Fulham on a lesser scale.

Another hypothetical example is if Ole Gunnar Solskjær has Manchester United sitting 9th on 35 points after 25 rounds and my cousin thinks he is excellent coach but the recruitment and players are to blame, then does the table that doesn't lie prove him right or wrong?

Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 17, 2020, 10:54:58 AM

Quote from: ByTheRiver on February 17, 2020, 10:41:51 AM

Quote from: RaySmith on February 17, 2020, 10:26:45 AM
But the 'best players' is subjective, opinions will differ, the table isn't - telling you which team has the most points - which team has performed the  best.
The measures performances purely in points gained- and this determines promotion or relegation - not bad luck or bad ref calls, etc - all subjective.

If Barcelona were sitting 12th in La Liga this season, would this suggest that its all subjective and as they are 12th, that is probably where they should be. Or, would it suggest that the manager is perhaps underperforming relative to the resources available to them?

It's an extreme hypothetical example granted, but it is a valid one. This is what is happening at Fulham on a lesser scale.

Another hypothetical example is if Ole Gunnar Solskjær has Manchester United sitting 9th on 35 points after 25 rounds and my cousin thinks he is excellent coach but the recruitment and players are to blame, then does the table that doesn't lie prove him right or wrong?

A very good example!

Personally, in this instance, I would say both sides play a part (similar to Fulham last season, for example). I don't believe Ole will ever be a good enough coach for a team of Uniteds size and, had he not been a 'legend' player, he a). wouldn't have been given the opportunity in the first place (a failed coach at Cardiff, currently at Molde would not be offered the Utd job in any other circumstances). or b). would have been sacked a couple of months ago, if he had been given the role.

But, equally, I feel recruitment has played a part. I don't think anyone would say the squad is as good as Man City or Liverpool (how many Utd players would get into a best 11 of the two sides?) so they should probably be finishing third.

The recruitment has been a bit haphazard and 'big names' like Sanchez brought in who has looked unmotivated (Schurrle, anyone?) or massively overpaid for Maquire who isn't ever going to be good enough for a team hoping to compete for a premier league title.

So, yes, in summary, much like Parker should go for underperforming relative to resources, Ole would almost certainly be already gone if it wasn't for the sentimentality. He is doing worse than Moyes/Mourinho/Van Gaal and all recent managers.

I think it mirrors Fulham in a way but nobody can lay the blame at recruitment at Fulham this year. I have criticised TK in the past (I was very much sided with SJ in their public battles) but he has done all expected of him and more this season.

A fuller version of this cliché or axiom is the table doesn't lie unless it does.  If individual results don't tell the truth then the table must lie since it is simply a collection with those untruths included.

Incidents and their outcomes are all very random and have widely conflicting impacts.  On Saturday, WBA's Livermore deliberately stamped his studs on the left knee of Ribeiro during a tussle a matter of thirty feet from the assistant and followed it up with a mouthful of abuse as the Forest player lay stricken on the ground.   Livermore wasn't even spoken to by the official in charge Mr Stroud.  A red card or investigation by the authorities into violent conduct should have followed which would have impacted on WBA's season to come.   It is difficult to know if bias hasn't taken over the way football is being managed these days because we are so obsessed with getting things right we are getting much more wrong than we used to do.

Football needs a breath of fresh air at the top levels and an end to money being everything.   

Quote from: Sgt Fulham on February 15, 2020, 07:27:29 PM

Quote from: MikeCdawg on February 15, 2020, 07:25:42 PM
I think we're destined for playoffs regardless. So Id give him until the end of the season. If he fails at playoffs then he must go. I'd only sack him tonight if we were in real danger of missing out on playoffs, which we aren't

I was considering an option for 'out at the end of the season' but decided against it to force people to make a snap decision. I am mostly in agreement with you, apart from I am so bored of watching us play that I just want a change regardless.

I like Parker, think he could be a good manager, but I'm not of the opinion people have when they count-argue that Parker should go by saying we're third.

The point of this league isn't to stay in it, although I know some want us to. Tactically I think he's been bailed out by pure talent of the squad more than his tactical nous. We don't open teams up like we did under Slavisa, and with Slavisa given this squad we would be.

Reality is that we've been close to the top 2 for a while now and keep faltering - losing 3-0 to the lowest team in the league and having Cauley score two, even though he is in a great run of form - simply shouldn't be happening given the squad we've got. Drawing to Millwall away, even when the weather was shocking and Millwall's goal shouldn't have stood, yes is unlucky - but we dominated them 4-0, breaking records... whilst they've improved, we've arguably also stagnated since then.

3rd is not an accomplishment in this league, neither is anything up until 6th. You either get automatic promotion, or you win the playoffs, which we've done - was a fun day out, but extended the season and ultimately is never guaranteed. And this seasons looks like it's going to be more tightly fought then when we did go up.

It's a risk getting a new manager in, but ultimately Parker needs a tougher job to learn from with lesser quality players to realise that there's a need for variance, to take up the challenge when teams above you falter - resting Kmac and Cavaleiro when we had been on a good run, may have been kind to give them rest - but Millwall was the perfect time to get 2nd, especially after Leeds had lost their game the day before. Then to switch out Bobby for Knockaert who's been a catalyst for us against Barnsley... They're not tactical decisions, they're emotional based on giving a lad a rest.. which I get, but could they really not have played that game? Could you not have substituted them later on and not disrupted the team who had got used to one another... could you ease them out of games to keep their legs fresh?

I don't know who we'd get in or who would be available and so that's a risk of derailing our season... but do I really want us to be in the championship again next season,no. We shouldn't be in this league - no disrespect to it - with the players we have,the owners ambition and the growing stadium etc and we don't need to be either.

It's annoying as ultimately I put this down to the Khan's mistake - why buy a lamborghini (the squad), and then put someone in it who only ever wants to drive it around London in traffic or park it in their garage (a bit harsh, as I do like parker but...). The ultimately wanted to go straight back up, messed around with bringing in defenders all summer due to favourability of the likes of Ream and Odoi but brought in some quality attacking players, although not a back up for Mitro (Woodrow would've been good) - and then hindered that progress by keeping Parker in charge - his first competitive managerial appt.

Anyway - I've said my piece. I'd rather someone tell Parker that he needs to stop messing around, needs to push harder to get the results and get us into the automatics, because sometimes adding that pressure can make the man and we need it, because currently other teams look like they want it more.

Parker is paid more than the highest paid surgeons in Charing Cross Hospital, no matter how good any surgeon is an inexperienced surgeon is not allowed to be the lead until years of being the assistant surgeon. He is only given the head surgeon when he doesn't have anything more to learn being an assistant surgeon. Our society considers it unacceptable for a surgeon to lose patients by making mistakes and would never say a surgeon has to start by being head surgeon, frankly if we did that patients would be dying unnecessarily everywhere. Scott Parker has a future in coaching and should be doing every coaching job apart from head coach for a few more years. I would have liked him to be placed as the u23 coach with a view to promote him once parchuate payments end and we have to bring in the younger players due to lack of money.

Quote from: RaySmith on February 17, 2020, 10:26:45 AM
But the 'best players' is subjective, opinions will differ, the table isn't - telling you which team has the most points - which team has performed the  best.
The measures performances purely in points gained- and this determines promotion or relegation - not bad luck or bad ref calls, etc - all subjective.

There are plenty of objective criteria that can be used to determine whether we have the "best players". For example, their most recent transfer value, their salaries, the goals/ assists/ clean sheets they kept in other seasons etc, are all objective. And to a large extent, individuals' opinions will be derived from these objective criteria.

There are also objective criteria that can look behind league position. For example, the "expected goals" metric is indicative of "bad luck". If you lose 1-0 but had a higher expected goals rating the opposition, that essentially means you were unlucky. Similarly "bad ref calls" aren't subjective either - when replays show the referee has simply made the wrong decision.

For the record I'm not saying any of these criteria, objective or not, are 100% reliable. But if they're all pointing in the same direction then you can use them as a justufication for concluding something, eg that this Fulham squad should be in the top 2, with a very high degree of confidence.