Personally i don't think so, but what do you think?
In his time, Les could turn defenders inside out and play the right ball at the right time, to the right guy.
The game has moved on and i reckon that, if Les had been coached the way Willian has, he'd be up there.
Quote from: Barrett487 on February 13, 2023, 08:21:13 PM
Personally i don't think so, but what do you think?
In his time, Les could turn defenders inside out and play the right ball at the right time, to the right guy.
The game has moved on and i reckon that, if Les had been coached the way Willian has, he'd be up there.
Does it matter? Sorry to sound dismissive but different times you can't really compare.
Quote from: alfie on February 13, 2023, 08:23:50 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on February 13, 2023, 08:21:13 PM
Personally i don't think so, but what do you think?
In his time, Les could turn defenders inside out and play the right ball at the right time, to the right guy.
The game has moved on and i reckon that, if Les had been coached the way Willian has, he'd be up there.
Does it matter? Sorry to sound dismissive but different times you can't really compare.
I grew up watching Les, he was brilliant. I don't mind your dismissiveness, each to his own.
I think that the natural gift they share is apparent, the difference being that Les was inhibited by the system and Willian grew up in Brazilian football culture coaching.
Willian aged 34 is definitely better than Barrett was at any time in his 30s.
Quote from: Arthur on February 13, 2023, 08:32:42 PM
Willian aged 34 is definitely better than Barrett was at any time in his 30s.
Perhaps so, but don't think it is comparable from that perspective, and it disregards the spirit of the OP's post in my opinion. All (almost) players are so much more taken care of nowadays regarding how they train, eat, recover etc. can't compare a player in their thirties today with one from decades ago.
Very different players.
Les was all about speed.
Willian is more trickery I think
Make you right above.
I know that we have a fondness for our favourites in our formative years but, in my view, Barrett doesn't come close. He stood out as one of the better players in a middling second tier team but that was probably his level. YouTube has some reminders of how good he could be at times but his predictably would often frustrate. Willian has played and succeeded at some of Europes top clubs and has won leagues and cups and his play this season has been of that standard. Not knocking Barrett who did have a good career with us at a time when, for the most part, we were fairly ordinary, but in terms of wide players, off the top of my head I would take Houghton, Boa, Steed, Duff, Dempsey and Willian ahead of Barrett.
Nobody can win this debate. Barrett was a phenomenal player and so is Willian. Haynes was pretty damn good as well, but didn't play in Europe and didn't win anything, and he will always be the maestro!
They're different types of players. Les would dribble down the touchline send the defender the wrong way and then cross into the box at 90 degrees from the corner flag. Willian plays further infield it seems to me. Love them both.
Think I've got to mention Jimmy Conway.
I different times and different players but I'm happy to have seen them both play.They both had phenominal skill
Graham Leggat was better than both.
I only saw Tosh at the very end. Those who saw him more, how did he compare with Les?
Quote from: gang on February 14, 2023, 12:26:52 AM
Graham Leggat was better than both.
GL is my all time favourite Fulham player and although I also idolised Tosh Chamberlain as footballers who fly down the wing Leggat was exceptionally gifted in many ways Tosh wasn't, especially ball control. But Tosh kicked a ball harder than anyone else I have seen including the here and now. Les Barrett was also a player I idolised during his time because he was fast and had a terrific cross and shot on him but Tosh kicked the ball so much harder than Les. You'd honestly take cover when Tosh was around but you'd be transfixed by Barrett at times.
Comparisons are awkward when generations are concerned since football goes through subtle change when different methods are applied to reach success. Willian has skills that few English/British players ever master and so he is different and I think Saturday's goal was something he has been threatening for some time. All four players have been well worth the price of admission as has Neeskens Kebano who also has some shot in his armoury. There are others I could mention too as Fulham wide players. Been so lucky watching Fulham football.
Football boots are a factor in this type of discussion as well. The modern 'running shoe' style makes turning and sprinting easier than the concrete block models of yore.
Quote from: Sting of the North on February 13, 2023, 09:07:24 PM
Quote from: Arthur on February 13, 2023, 08:32:42 PM
Willian aged 34 is definitely better than Barrett was at any time in his 30s.
Perhaps so, but don't think it is comparable from that perspective, and it disregards the spirit of the OP's post in my opinion. All (almost) players are so much more taken care of nowadays regarding how they train, eat, recover etc. can't compare a player in their thirties today with one from decades ago.
The fact that I have given Les Barrett four years' leeway on Willian is surely evidence I have considered the superior fitness of modern-day footballers. Now, it may be that even four years is insufficient to compensate, but 30 seemed, to me, to make the spirit of my point easier to understand than had I put 28 or 29. In actuality, Les was, in my opinion, never quite the same player after his first child was born. However, I can't recall when this was - although I'm sure he was still in his 20s - and I can only speculate, of course, as to whether the two events were connected.
But it is not the case that mine 'disregards the spirit of the O.P.'s post'.
As much as we like to compare, they are almost playing a different game these days.
One thing's for sure, players with talent and hard work in any era would be quality players today, including Les.
If we are talking left wingers, or even left sided attacking players, then the best post war players were Tosh, Barret, Leggat, and Boa.
Boa has to be the best by a country mile.
Barrat was very good and served us so well.
Leggat played more as a central striker who could poach goals.
Tosh was Tosh and such a character and the best loved of the bunch.
Willian is very good but has not been with us any time yet and cannot possibly be compared to those magnificent four men of Fulham.
Quote from: gang on February 14, 2023, 12:26:52 AM
Graham Leggat was better than both.
The kind of forgotten legend.
He was a brilliant player,didn't get the praise that others got over the years.
Quote from: filham on February 14, 2023, 10:36:41 AM
If we are talking left wingers, or even left sided attacking players, then the best post war players were Tosh, Barret, Leggat, and Boa.
Boa has to be the best by a country mile.
Barrat was very good and served us so well.
Leggat played more as a central striker who could poach goals.
Tosh was Tosh and such a character and the best loved of the bunch.
Willian is very good but has not been with us any time yet and cannot possibly be compared to those magnificent four men of Fulham.
[I think Dempsey must be up there - not a conventional left sided player but he scored 20 goals one season playing mainly from the left. and was consistently good post Europa]
I am surprised that no one has mentioned the mud heaps of pitches that they used to play on compared with the slick watered surfaces of today.
This makes for completely different football today with. better closer control.
Just watch the old Newcastle v Fulham Match of the Day on YouTube and the passing and close control is no where as good as you see today even from our stars of the time.
Les played nearly all his football for Fulham in the lower leagues. He was a lovely player and with Conway and Earle we used to have a quick silver attack. You compare that to Willian who is an Elite player, Barrett was never that. Haynes was, Clarke was, Cohen was, but no one really of the era of the 3 above.
What I find astonishing about Willian is his willingness to work so hard, rather like Best when he was with us, he does the dirty work, is a team player and on top of that has abilities to compare to the best in the world.
Fairer question would be who did you enjoy watching the most. Watching the Fulham team in the 1970's was a lot of fun, particularly as I was so much younger however it was frustrating, badly managed a lot of the time, no money, Craven Cottage starting to decline and quite a lot of misery.
If the question is changing to who did we enjoy watching the most then make no mistake, Tosh never failed to bring a smile to your face, He would without doubt continued to do that in modern football, it had nothing to do with tactics, weight of the ball or condition of the pitch.
He *might * be off at the end of the season.
https://twitter.com/WhiteNoise1879/status/1625979800396365824
Tosh was Tosh and such a character and the best loved of the bunch.
I think that is right, but a very different type of winger to the likes of Les, Boa and W. A kick like a mule, but as often as not it didn't go where we presume he intended and he was a regular frustation to the Maesto.
We had a lot of characters back then, with Jimmy Langley and Maurice Cook as well as Tosh, plus some young players who really came good in George Cohen and Alan Mullery.
Sometimes difficult not to be nostalgic when you've spent hours on the open riverside terraces having walked in at the Hammersmith end with the pervading smell of timber from the adjacent yard, watching us lose 0-1 to Cardiff City and the like in the rain, with apart from your group maybe the nearest other spectator 10 feet away. But the standard of play now is in general so much better, with the current team, and squad, in my view our best ever, with for the first time in my lifetime, not a weak position anywhere. And if we had seen a player with W's skills at the Cotage back then, we simply wouldn't have believed it.
The downside is cost. My father and his brother were in ordinary jobs earning ordinary money but could easily afford to pay the entrance money for themselves, me and my cousin. These days the prices are, even as a better than averagely well-off pensioner, eye-watering
Quote from: Holders on February 14, 2023, 12:03:46 AM
They're different types of players. Les would dribble down the touchline send the defender the wrong way and then cross into the box at 90 degrees from the corner flag. Willian plays further infield it seems to me. Love them both.
+1
Quote from: Andy S on February 14, 2023, 12:15:32 AM
I different times and different players but I'm happy to have seen them both play.They both had phenominal skill
Got to agree.... both quality players and I am just glad to have been able to watch them both in a Fulham shirt...
I'm also hoping to see Willian for at least one more season..... if not two!!
COYW
Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2023, 08:11:49 AM
Tosh was Tosh and such a character and the best loved of the bunch.
I think that is right, but a very different type of winger to the likes of Les, Boa and W. A kick like a mule, but as often as not it didn't go where we presume he intended and he was a regular frustation to the Maesto.
We had a lot of characters back then, with Jimmy Langley and Maurice Cook as well as Tosh, plus some young players who really came good in George Cohen and Alan Mullery.
Sometimes difficult not to be nostalgic when you've spent hours on the open riverside terraces having walked in at the Hammersmith end with the pervading smell of timber from the adjacent yard, watching us lose 0-1 to Cardiff City and the like in the rain, with apart from your group maybe the nearest other spectator 10 feet away. But the standard of play now is in general so much better, with the current team, and squad, in my view our best ever, with for the first time in my lifetime, not a weak position anywhere. And if we had seen a player with W's skills at the Cotage back then, we simply wouldn't have believed it.
The downside is cost. My father and his brother were in ordinary jobs earning ordinary money but could easily afford to pay the entrance money for themselves, me and my cousin. These days the prices are, even as a better than averagely well-off pensioner, eye-watering
Agree with every word and was reminded of those early days at the the Cottage, thank you for the post.
Would jus add though that we will never again see such a lethal attacking trio as Haynes, Jezzard and Robson. Three young English internationals in the Fulham attack who were individually exceptional and collectively brilliant.
Quote from: Oakeshott on February 16, 2023, 08:11:49 AM
Tosh was Tosh and such a character and the best loved of the bunch.
I think that is right, but a very different type of winger to the likes of Les, Boa and W. A kick like a mule, but as often as not it didn't go where we presume he intended and he was a regular frustation to the Maesto.
We had a lot of characters back then, with Jimmy Langley and Maurice Cook as well as Tosh, plus some young players who really came good in George Cohen and Alan Mullery.
Sometimes difficult not to be nostalgic when you've spent hours on the open riverside terraces having walked in at the Hammersmith end with the pervading smell of timber from the adjacent yard, watching us lose 0-1 to Cardiff City and the like in the rain, with apart from your group maybe the nearest other spectator 10 feet away. But the standard of play now is in general so much better, with the current team, and squad, in my view our best ever, with for the first time in my lifetime, not a weak position anywhere. And if we had seen a player with W's skills at the Cotage back then, we simply wouldn't have believed it.
The downside is cost. My father and his brother were in ordinary jobs earning ordinary money but could easily afford to pay the entrance money for themselves, me and my cousin. These days the prices are, even as a better than averagely well-off pensioner, eye-watering
Nicely put. Players like Tosh and later Les B were of their era and terrific in their day. Personally I have a huge fondness for Boa and also for Bjarne Goldbaek amongst others. However if by best we mean who has achieved the highest standards in their career then it has to be Willian. He's right up there with some of the very best.
Yes, I agree with Twig.
I love the nostalgia surrounding these older players especially the likes of Barrett and Chamberlain who I am too young to have seen but you only really have to compare records to see who has been the best really.
A younger Willian was in a different league to any winger we have probably ever had at the club, and he's not too shabby even in the twilgiht of his career.
Edit: George Best may just have eclipsed him based on my criteria though! 064.gif
It could be right to say that Best and Willian are the two best wide left players to play at the Cottage for Fulham. of course neither of them have put in more than a season's service so the memory banks of us old timers will have more stored away regarding our long term players.
I loved Les . H e had pace and control . great player
But Willian is pure class . His touch and close control matches him against the best wide players ever. He never makes a miss calculation or poor decision either as far as I can see.
An interesting question which can only be bettered by whether Willian has ever worked in a candle factory like Les!
I remember Les Barrett well and he was good when I was young and fit enough to regularly go to matches. Graham Leggat (4 goals in 19 minutes in 10-1 thrashing versus Ipswich on Boxing day 1963) was better and Willian however, is a class above both of them. Let's hope we get another year or two out of him.
Quote from: Dodgin on February 14, 2023, 12:13:03 AM
Think I've got to mention Jimmy Conway.
Of course, one of the Fulham greats, truly Forever Fulham.
Quote from: Logicalman on February 17, 2023, 09:01:37 PM
Quote from: Dodgin on February 14, 2023, 12:13:03 AM
Think I've got to mention Jimmy Conway.
Of course, one of the Fulham greats, truly Forever Fulham.
Lightning fast as an attacking midfielder on the right....the perfect partner and foil to Les playing further up on the left. Happy days!