Lord Swiss Ramble has just posted our financials for the 22/23 year.
Ill post the key-points here and his page for you to look a ( plus he has graphs etc on there)
Profit/(Loss) 2022/23
In 2022/23 Fulham's pre-tax loss more than halved from £57m to £26m, as revenue shot up £110m from £72m to a club record £182m following promotion to the Premier League, though profit from player sales dropped from £12m to £9m.
Much of the revenue increase was eaten up by operating expenses rising £76m (54%) from £141m to £217m, as the club increased its budget in order to compete in the top flight.
The main driver of Fulham's revenue growth was broadcasting, which almost tripled, rising £94m from £51m to £145m, thanks to the far more lucrative Premier League TV deal.
However, there was also good growth in the other revenue streams, especially match day, which more than doubled from £6.8m to £15.2m, while commercial increased £8.7m (62%) from £14.0m to £22.7m.
In order to help survive in the Premier League, Fulham further invested in the squad As a result, wages rose £49m (54%) from £90m (including hefty promotion bonus payments) to £139m, which was another club record. In addition, player amortisation increased £15m (47%) from £31m to £46m.
Other expenses were also significantly higher, rising £13m (75%) from £18m to £31m.
Despite the improvement, Fulham still lost £26m, but this was actually not too bad for the Premier League, as some clubs reported much higher losses in 2022/23, led by Aston Villa £120m, Tottenham £95m, Chelsea £90m, Leicester City £90m and Everton £89m.
Other Key Points
- Fulham are effectively debt free, however the debt would be absolutely enormous with an incredible 832m converted into equity since 2012 ( Thanks Shahid ) :Khan_you_fix_it:
https://swissramble.substack.com/p/fulham-finances-202223 (https://swissramble.substack.com/p/fulham-finances-202223)
@swissramble on Twitter!
His paid option provides more detail but as im tight i've just posted his free version!
Enjoy ::thumb::
So, how much does that mean we have to spend this year?
Quote from: General on June 21, 2024, 10:58:16 AMSo, how much does that mean we have to spend this year?
that's the question?
Quote from: Sammyffc on June 21, 2024, 10:53:04 AMLord Swiss Ramble has just posted our financials for the 22/23 year.
Ill post the key-points here and his page for you to look a ( plus he has graphs etc on there)
Profit/(Loss) 2022/23
In 2022/23 Fulham's pre-tax loss more than halved from £57m to £26m, as revenue shot up £110m from £72m to a club record £182m following promotion to the Premier League, though profit from player sales dropped from £12m to £9m.
Much of the revenue increase was eaten up by operating expenses rising £76m (54%) from £141m to £217m, as the club increased its budget in order to compete in the top flight.
The main driver of Fulham's revenue growth was broadcasting, which almost tripled, rising £94m from £51m to £145m, thanks to the far more lucrative Premier League TV deal.
However, there was also good growth in the other revenue streams, especially match day, which more than doubled from £6.8m to £15.2m, while commercial increased £8.7m (62%) from £14.0m to £22.7m.
In order to help survive in the Premier League, Fulham further invested in the squad As a result, wages rose £49m (54%) from £90m (including hefty promotion bonus payments) to £139m, which was another club record. In addition, player amortisation increased £15m (47%) from £31m to £46m.
Other expenses were also significantly higher, rising £13m (75%) from £18m to £31m.
Despite the improvement, Fulham still lost £26m, but this was actually not too bad for the Premier League, as some clubs reported much higher losses in 2022/23, led by Aston Villa £120m, Tottenham £95m, Chelsea £90m, Leicester City £90m and Everton £89m.
Other Key Points
- Fulham are effectively debt free, however the debt would be absolutely enormous with an incredible 832m converted into equity since 2012 ( Thanks Shahid ) :Khan_you_fix_it:
https://swissramble.substack.com/p/fulham-finances-202223 (https://swissramble.substack.com/p/fulham-finances-202223)
@swissramble on Twitter!
His paid option provides more detail but as im tight i've just posted his free version!
Enjoy ::thumb::
Thanks for posting that. It's made a change to read something about football which is not boring, gloomy and negative.
Quote from: hovewhite on June 21, 2024, 11:35:43 AMQuote from: General on June 21, 2024, 10:58:16 AMSo, how much does that mean we have to spend this year?
that's the question?
I know.. I was looking for an answer.
I asked ChatGPT to analyse the PNL screenshot.
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
##############################################
Full analysis:
To estimate how much the club can spend on transfers in 2024, we need to analyze their current financial position and potential funds available. Key elements to consider include:
Operating Profit/(Loss): This reflects the core business performance. The club reported an operating loss of £35.2 million for 2023.
Profit on Player Sales: They made £8.7 million from player sales in 2023.
Cash Flow: The cash on hand at the end of 2023 is £51.5 million.
Net Debt: The club has net debt of £50.3 million, an increase from £29.8 million in 2022.
Other Relevant Expenses: Wages, amortization, depreciation, and other operating expenses need to be taken into account.
Considering these factors:
Cash Available for Transfers
Cash at Hand (2023): £51.5 million
Profit from Player Sales: £8.7 million
The cash at hand of £51.5 million represents the most straightforward amount they can spend. However, the net debt position and ongoing operating losses suggest that the club might need to reserve some funds for covering future operational costs and managing debt.
Potential Spending Scenarios
Conservative Approach:
Reserve a portion of the cash to cover operating losses and manage debt.
If they reserve 50% of the cash for these purposes, they would have around £25.75 million available for transfers.
Aggressive Approach:
Utilize most of the available cash for transfers, assuming future revenues or additional financing will cover operational and debt-related expenses.
This could allow spending close to the full £51.5 million on transfers.
Given the financial situation:
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
The club's exact spending will depend on their risk appetite, future revenue projections (such as broadcast and matchday revenues), and strategic priorities (like maintaining financial stability vs. aggressive investment in the squad).
Therefore, the club could potentially spend between £25.75 million and £51.5 million on transfers in 2024, depending on their financial strategy and risk management approach.
Quote from: ..FOF.. on June 22, 2024, 12:44:41 AMI asked ChatGPT to analyse the PNL screenshot.
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
##############################################
Full analysis:
To estimate how much the club can spend on transfers in 2024, we need to analyze their current financial position and potential funds available. Key elements to consider include:
Operating Profit/(Loss): This reflects the core business performance. The club reported an operating loss of £35.2 million for 2023.
Profit on Player Sales: They made £8.7 million from player sales in 2023.
Cash Flow: The cash on hand at the end of 2023 is £51.5 million.
Net Debt: The club has net debt of £50.3 million, an increase from £29.8 million in 2022.
Other Relevant Expenses: Wages, amortization, depreciation, and other operating expenses need to be taken into account.
Considering these factors:
Cash Available for Transfers
Cash at Hand (2023): £51.5 million
Profit from Player Sales: £8.7 million
The cash at hand of £51.5 million represents the most straightforward amount they can spend. However, the net debt position and ongoing operating losses suggest that the club might need to reserve some funds for covering future operational costs and managing debt.
Potential Spending Scenarios
Conservative Approach:
Reserve a portion of the cash to cover operating losses and manage debt.
If they reserve 50% of the cash for these purposes, they would have around £25.75 million available for transfers.
Aggressive Approach:
Utilize most of the available cash for transfers, assuming future revenues or additional financing will cover operational and debt-related expenses.
This could allow spending close to the full £51.5 million on transfers.
Given the financial situation:
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
The club's exact spending will depend on their risk appetite, future revenue projections (such as broadcast and matchday revenues), and strategic priorities (like maintaining financial stability vs. aggressive investment in the squad).
Therefore, the club could potentially spend between £25.75 million and £51.5 million on transfers in 2024, depending on their financial strategy and risk management approach.
I'm not an expert but surely this is missing a few big points. It sounds like it's based on pure profit loss for what we can spend but I can't see where it is accounting for allowable losses vs actual loss. We are allowed to lose £105 million over 3 years so if Khan wants to fund additional losses up to this point (as he has always done) he can do. There is also the point that this guy seems to be looking at the club financials for pure cost/loss but from an FFP perspective not all cost counts. So we have a tonne on the books for the stadium improvements but none of that counts to the £105 million. So he says we lost £26 million in 22/23 but but if £15 million of that relates to the stadium rebuild the loss from an FFP perspective is only £11 million of our £105 million allowable losses over 3 years.
Maybe I'm missing something but with the championship year gone after the 30th of June which saw huge losses and the last two years very well managed and the Mitro sale surely we have £80 to £100 million to spend from and FFP perspective without selling anyone should we want to. We've spent £60 to £70 million the last two years and that is with the championship year included with lower allowable losses so the £50 million estimate seems ridiculously low. Almosst all prem clubs tend to spend more than £50 million each year so with our last two years so well managed no reason we should be any different.
Quote from: Angus Telford on June 22, 2024, 08:18:10 PMThe thing is even if we have a certain "budget" like £70m that doesn't tell you much.
We buy a player for a headline fee of £20m but that will actually only cost £4-7m in the accounts this year, with the remainder amortising over the rest of the contract. However that player's wages will also cost a similar amount each year.
That's before you get into player sales which obviously increase the budget, not only because we receive a fee but also because we get their wages off the books.
All indicators suggest we should have a very healthy budget this year. Ordinarily for a mid-sized PL club that would mean spending something like £100m on fees. But it's not like fantasy football where you can just say we have X amount to buy a squad.
Quote from: Angus Telford on June 22, 2024, 08:18:10 PMThe thing is even if we have a certain "budget" like £70m that doesn't tell you much.
We buy a player for a headline fee of £20m but that will actually only cost £4-7m in the accounts this year, with the remainder amortising over the rest of the contract. However that player's wages will also cost a similar amount each year.
That's before you get into player sales which obviously increase the budget, not only because we receive a fee but also because we get their wages off the books.
All indicators suggest we should have a very healthy budget this year. Ordinarily for a mid-sized PL club that would mean spending something like £100m on fees. But it's not like fantasy football where you can just say we have X amount to buy a squad.
Yeah that is very true as well. Wages are just as important. £25 million over 5 years is £5 million a year. If that player is on £50k a week circa £2.5 million so £7.5 in total.
£10 million player is £2 million a year but if £120k a week in wages that is £6.2 million so £8.2 in total. £15 million less in transfer fees but costs more for FFP.
This is where buying Andre for £25 to £30 million vs say Nketiah for the same amount is very different. Coming from low wages in Brazil Andre may only be on £40k to £50k a week. I believe Nketiah is currently on £100k.
As a general however if we are not overpaying salary on every signing I wouldn't be surprised if after the 30th of June we have £80 million+.
great points everyone.
Just a caviat, i did post what was available for free on his page, i believe he goes more in depth in the further sections which is pay to view which i respect.
Unfortunately i do not have access so i could only post what i could ::scarf::
Quote from: ..FOF.. on June 22, 2024, 12:44:41 AMGiven the financial situation:
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
The club's exact spending will depend on their risk appetite, future revenue projections (such as broadcast and matchday revenues), and strategic priorities (like maintaining financial stability vs. aggressive investment in the squad).
Therefore, the club could potentially spend between £25.75 million and £51.5 million on transfers in 2024, depending on their financial strategy and risk management approach.
So after the sale of Palhinha, can we say that the board will now have the appetite to spend about £45.75 million to £71.5 million?
I added a conservative 20mil. Too much, too little?
Quote from: ..FOF.. on July 13, 2024, 01:24:33 AMQuote from: ..FOF.. on June 22, 2024, 12:44:41 AMGiven the financial situation:
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
The club's exact spending will depend on their risk appetite, future revenue projections (such as broadcast and matchday revenues), and strategic priorities (like maintaining financial stability vs. aggressive investment in the squad).
Therefore, the club could potentially spend between £25.75 million and £51.5 million on transfers in 2024, depending on their financial strategy and risk management approach.
So after the sale of Palhinha, can we say that the board will now have the appetite to spend about £45.75 million to £71.5 million?
I added a conservative 20mil. Too much, too little?
Palhinha's sale doesn't even matter for this season when talking about ffp as we're only looking at the last three seasons. I guess it'll matter next season though. If we make one 40m-50m sale every season that should put us in a pretty good position, ffp-wise.
Where does the mitrovic fee get added?
Quote from: hovewhite on July 13, 2024, 04:57:22 AMWhere does the mitrovic fee get added?
With the current system as far as I am aware the full fee gets added immediately and essentially counts for the three year assessment period. So Mitro s sale in 23/24 would count under the current system for:
21/22
22/23
23/24
But as the period is always looked at over 3 years it also counts moving forward:
22/23
23/24
24/25 - still helpful this year then.
If the system was staying it would still count for 25/26. In 26/27 the 23/24 Sal would no longer be part of the 3 year period so essentially we cannot use the Mitro incoming anymore.
Joao s likewise will count for the three year period as well. So from the 1st of July this year to the 30th of June next year all our incomings and outgoings will be added to the last 2 years incomings and outgoings and the net result cannot be more than -£105 million. Both sales then should be a massive help this summer if my understanding is correct.
One thing I can't seem to find info on is how the new rules coming in next year will work with player sales. The new rules look at each year individually rather than over 3 years when making the assessment I believe. For purchases everything is still amortised so is spread. If a sale only counts in that year it would be pretty rubbish. If that were the case Mitro s sale last year would have made us pass last year but would essentially be useless this year if only considered in the selling year. You'd potentially have to sell a big player every year if you wanted to spend a lot. With the current system you could make one big sale every 3 years as above if big enough to keep you going. As I say I can't seem to find out how sales are accounted for with the new system if anyone else knows?
I think a good system would be that if you make a sale you can apportion it as you see fit putting the incoming in one year if you need to or spreading it over a number of years similar to amortisation to balance the books each year. Really interested to find out how this works as obviously pretty crucial for a club like ours.
Quote from: demeant0r on July 13, 2024, 03:20:15 AMQuote from: ..FOF.. on July 13, 2024, 01:24:33 AMQuote from: ..FOF.. on June 22, 2024, 12:44:41 AMGiven the financial situation:
Estimated Transfer Budget (Conservative): ~£25.75 million
Estimated Transfer Budget (Aggressive): ~£51.5 million
The club's exact spending will depend on their risk appetite, future revenue projections (such as broadcast and matchday revenues), and strategic priorities (like maintaining financial stability vs. aggressive investment in the squad).
Therefore, the club could potentially spend between £25.75 million and £51.5 million on transfers in 2024, depending on their financial strategy and risk management approach.
So after the sale of Palhinha, can we say that the board will now have the appetite to spend about £45.75 million to £71.5 million?
I added a conservative 20mil. Too much, too little?
Palhinha's sale doesn't even matter for this season when talking about ffp as we're only looking at the last three seasons. I guess it'll matter next season though. If we make one 40m-50m sale every season that should put us in a pretty good position, ffp-wise.
I think it does mate as far as I am aware as it goes on the books immediately. It will be used in the final 3 year assessment under the current system for the period:
22/23
23/24
24/25
It therefore directly impacts what we can spend this summer for this 3 year period. The assessment of them however is made at in 2025 after the 24/25 financial year had ended so in that respect penalties are in arrears I believe.
As per my post above however not sure how the 25/26 new rules will work with how player sales are allocated. If the Joao and Mitro money was disregarded next year for accounting purposes it would dramatically reduce our budget this year as we couldn't laden ourselves with big amortised fees and salaries next year from this years spending of these incomings. It makes zero sense for a sale to only count for one year so hoping the new system accounts for this somehow.
Quote from: Drewry66 on July 15, 2024, 12:10:04 PMQuote from: hovewhite on July 13, 2024, 04:57:22 AMWhere does the mitrovic fee get added?
With the current system as far as I am aware the full fee gets added immediately and essentially counts for the three year assessment period. So Mitro s sale in 23/24 would count under the current system for:
21/22
22/23
23/24
But as the period is always looked at over 3 years it also counts moving forward:
22/23
23/24
24/25 - still helpful this year then.
If the system was staying it would still count for 25/26. In 26/27 the 23/24 Sal would no longer be part of the 3 year period so essentially we cannot use the Mitro incoming anymore.
Joao s likewise will count for the three year period as well. So from the 1st of July this year to the 30th of June next year all our incomings and outgoings will be added to the last 2 years incomings and outgoings and the net result cannot be more than -£105 million. Both sales then should be a massive help this summer if my understanding is correct.
One thing I can't seem to find info on is how the new rules coming in next year will work with player sales. The new rules look at each year individually rather than over 3 years when making the assessment I believe. For purchases everything is still amortised so is spread. If a sale only counts in that year it would be pretty rubbish. If that were the case Mitro s sale last year would have made us pass last year but would essentially be useless this year if only considered in the selling year. You'd potentially have to sell a big player every year if you wanted to spend a lot. With the current system you could make one big sale every 3 years as above if big enough to keep you going. As I say I can't seem to find out how sales are accounted for with the new system if anyone else knows?
I think a good system would be that if you make a sale you can apportion it as you see fit putting the incoming in one year if you need to or spreading it over a number of years similar to amortisation to balance the books each year. Really interested to find out how this works as obviously pretty crucial for a club like ours.
For anyone interested I just found the answer to my own question re how sales may be allocated with the new rules. Long post where I have tried to understand it myself so thought I'd share. I'm no expert so may have stuff wrong and used absolute ball park figures just to give examples so take all with a large pinch of salt...
Kieran Maguire the financial football expert has suggested the proposed 25/26 rule changes will still factor in the last 3 seasons for the season being reviewed as per his breakdown below:
Player profits are the highest profits of
(a) Last season
(b) The average profits of the last 2 seasons or
(c) The average profits of the last 3 seasons
These profits would then be added to revenue. We would then be allowed to spend 85% of this total that year on amortised fees, agent fees and salaries if not in Europe and 70% if we are.
https://x.com/KieranMaguire/status/1778460921561489689
Essentially then when the new rules come in I think it would work something like this if I am reading it all correctly:
Our revenue for 2023 was £182 million according to the link above. Hopefully by 25/26 the new stand and it's extra match day and non match day income is up and running. No idea what extra that will generate but plucking a number out of thin air let's say £18 million to make it a round £200 million before player sales are accounted for.
For player sales when looking back 3 years from 25/26:
23/24 Mitro sale £42 million - rumoured to be £45 million. Can't have been much left on his amortised fee so let's guess we banked £42 million profit.
24/25 Joao sale £30 million - prob about £10 million left in amortised fees. 20% on profit of sale to Sporting? Another £4 to £5 million? Also not sure how the add ins are treated. A bit of a guess then but let's say we banked £30 million for profit.
25/26 - ??? Secrnario one we don't sell anyone. Scenario 2 we sell Robinson and make £50 million profit.
Scenario one:
As we haven't sold anyone in 25/26 we would us the best average of the last two or three years:
2 year average = £15 million ((24/25 £30 million + 25/26 £0)/2)
3 year average = ((23/24 £42 million + 24/25 £30 million + £0)/3) = 24 million
We would use the 3 year average then as the higher amount so £24 million to add to the £200 million.
£224 x 85% = £190.4 million allowed for amortised fees, wages and agents fees.
Scenario 2:
If we sold Robinson in 25/26 for profit of £50 million this would be higher than the averages so we would use that and would have £250 million rather than £224.
£250 x 85% = 212.5 million allowed for amortised fees, wages and agents fees.
Either way then the sales of Mitro and Joao should still benefit us when the new rules come in if Maguire is correct with how this is being done which is good.
In 2023 our cost for salaries, amortised fees and agent fees was £161 million.
Using scenario 1 above then we would have circa £30 million (190-160) in spare budget if my estimates are anywhere near correct.
Let's say we spent £100 million this summer (which we should be able to do under the current rules I would imagine depending on salaries) and we amortised all of that over 5 years that would be £20 million a year. We would the still have £10 million spare for increased salaries if required. We have however removed huge salaries with Mitro, Joao and Willian so not impossible that we could spend £100 million and actually not increase the salary total much if players brought in are on a lot less (likely with the likes of Andre).
I predicted £18 million for the new stand revenues but probably way too optimistic. If more like £5 to £10 we'd defo have to not increase salaries much. In all likelihood we will make a sale or a few in 25/26 so would bring in profit for that year which would either increase the average or if a big sale (as per scenario 2) that was bigger than the average we would have even more room.
In summation then from my understanding and very rough estimates I think we can still spend a tonne this summer and stay within the new 25/26 rules. We would have loads of room if we made another big sale next year.
Final thing to note is that if we get into Europe like we all would love the new system would absolutely stuff us.
£224 x 70% = £156.8 allowed for amortised fees, wages and agents fees. West Ham only made £19 million and that was winning it. Would only take us to £175 million then. Hate to say it then but we like most mid table teams prob won't want to qualify for Europe with the new rules which is pretty stupid. Flip side it helps us with an advantage on those just above us who are in Europe.