3 clean sheets in the premier league this calendar year . That is where the problems lies nothing has changed we play with 6 or 7 defensive minded players and still concede stupid easily preventable goals it is our Achilles heel and Silva has done nothing to rectify it . Long balls over the top and players running unopposed every week to take a shot what are we doing on the training pitch š¤·ļæ½āļø
How does this compare to teams that finished around us last season? Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth, Palace etc.
Edit: I've looked it up and we're more in line with the bottom 5 in that regard. Definitely something to work on.
Don't think we score goals consistently enough either.
It seems that many teams seem to have worked out our patterns of play.
Our pattern of play is so predictable, opponents set themselves up in preparation as we appear easy to play against due to the slow tempo walking football in our own half.
Which often ends up giving the opposition time to get back behind the ball with depth and balance, or it ends up with Leno miscueing the ball into touch.
Either way we have just wasted time passing the ball sideways backwards in our own half, foolishly thinking we are going to suck them forward into leaving space behind them.
But in fact opponents just sit watching us fanny around at the back until an unforced error hands them possession.
If the opposition do press putting our players in defensive areas under pressure, then the chances are a pass goes astray and we lose possession cheaply and this happens home and away, and MSĀ does not seem to respond by way of a solution to prevent this happening.
I should really start taping our matchesĀ and watch them at night. Much better than taking a sleeping tablet.
The NHS could take it up too, as a recognised cure for insomnia.
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Very difficult nowadays especially in this league against elite opposition most weeks to keep clean sheets let alone factor in strange VAR decisions. Who are the best team/s defensively and how much have their defence cost to put together?
Arsenal are the standout for me defensively Liverpool were 2nd but new defenders struggling a tad. Palace system probably puts them up there as one of the better teams defensively. Can't put up an argument for any other team including the likes of Man City. Lots of teams in premier league have average defence and a few with good defences.
There might be an debate whether today's managers work on their defence as much as they should?
Quote from: JimmyConway on October 09, 2025, 06:52:46 AMVery difficult nowadays especially in this league against elite opposition most weeks to keep clean sheets let alone factor in strange VAR decisions. Who are the best team/s defensively and how much have their defence cost to put together?
Arsenal are the standout for me defensively Liverpool were 2nd but new defenders struggling a tad. Palace system probably puts them up there as one of the better teams defensively. Can't put up an argument for any other team including the likes of Man City. Lots of teams in premier league have average defence and a few with good defences.
There might be an debate whether today's managers work on their defence as much as they should?
I suposes its ok if you score as well, but we lack the goals part, so being defensively good is important
It is basically Parkerball v2
Posted a thread on this the other day.
We in fact were fourth worst last season for clean sheets with 5, worse than West Ham and Wolves. Only the relegated sides were worse.
Definitely a cause for concern, think Andersen's lack of pace has been an issue, but also that we concede so many from outside the box.
It's the silly goals that frustrate me. That long ball over the top against Villa would give me nightmares as a 50+ year old player in a vets team. Shockingly bad.
What's perhaps worth mentioning is in the last two games our opponents have absolutely put us to the sword without many real chances- Villa's expected goals was 1.37 and Bournemouth's was 1.33. That's a huge swing.
Quote from: KentFulham on October 09, 2025, 07:43:44 AMQuote from: JimmyConway on October 09, 2025, 06:52:46 AMVery difficult nowadays especially in this league against elite opposition most weeks to keep clean sheets let alone factor in strange VAR decisions. Who are the best team/s defensively and how much have their defence cost to put together?
Arsenal are the standout for me defensively Liverpool were 2nd but new defenders struggling a tad. Palace system probably puts them up there as one of the better teams defensively. Can't put up an argument for any other team including the likes of Man City. Lots of teams in premier league have average defence and a few with good defences.
There might be an debate whether today's managers work on their defence as much as they should?
I suposes its ok if you score as well, but we lack the goals part, so being defensively good is important
Quite right and since Palhinha left we do not have that protection we had. We have two players now doing the job Joao did and arguably not as good? Wide players like Iwobi Wilson & Traore are not disciplined enough to track back. Whether Kevin or Samuel are remains to be seen.
Quote from: JimmyConway on October 09, 2025, 09:53:11 AMQuote from: KentFulham on October 09, 2025, 07:43:44 AMQuote from: JimmyConway on October 09, 2025, 06:52:46 AMVery difficult nowadays especially in this league against elite opposition most weeks to keep clean sheets let alone factor in strange VAR decisions. Who are the best team/s defensively and how much have their defence cost to put together?
Arsenal are the standout for me defensively Liverpool were 2nd but new defenders struggling a tad. Palace system probably puts them up there as one of the better teams defensively. Can't put up an argument for any other team including the likes of Man City. Lots of teams in premier league have average defence and a few with good defences.
There might be an debate whether today's managers work on their defence as much as they should?
I suposes its ok if you score as well, but we lack the goals part, so being defensively good is important
Quite right and since Palhinha left we do not have that protection we had. We have two players now doing the job Joao did and arguably not as good? Wide players like Iwobi Wilson & Traore are not disciplined enough to track back. Whether Kevin or Samuel are remains to be seen.
Precisely, by failing to track back to pick up their markers, it leaves no depth or delay or balance, therefore we lose our shape.
The back 4 get hit too early and no matter how many times they clear sometimes desperately due to lack of players in defensive areas, but eventually errors will occur which is the consequence of wingers not tucking in.
There is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
Quote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
Quote from: cookieg on October 09, 2025, 07:35:30 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
I feel like Leno has been a steady presence but I rarely leave any game feeling he won us the points. Doesn't make that many errors, but is a bit susceptible to long range shots.
Quote from: hopper on October 09, 2025, 08:26:28 PMQuote from: cookieg on October 09, 2025, 07:35:30 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
I feel like Leno has been a steady presence but I rarely leave any game feeling he won us the points. Doesn't make that many errors, but is a bit susceptible to long range shots.
I don't have a problem with Leno in general his a tidy keeper.That said I mentioned on here back in the summer we should have got a keeper in who would challenge him not someone happy to be a number two? Has he become a tad complacent without the competition.
I feel Leno has been better this season than last, where he was one of the worst performing keepers in the league. Great with one on one's, imo terrible with longer shots and not massively comfortable under corners.
Quote from: cookieg on October 09, 2025, 07:35:30 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
Of course all of the relevant stats show that the defense in front of our GK has gotten better every season we've been in the PL while unfortunately Bernd has gotten progressively worse. If Bernd had been just a roughly
average PL level shot stopper last season we'd have almost certainly comfortably finished at least a couple spots higher in the table. And while it's a little too early in the current season to draw any conclusions about whether there's been any improvement from Leno, the early returns are not terribly promising.
I feel Leno does not really look that comfortable with the ball at his feet, and it can effect his distribution at times.Ā
All professional keepers should be good shot stoppers, but commanding their area is just as important. especially high balls and crosses inĀ the box.
Maik Taylor was particularly good at that. He was a safe pair of hands.
Quote from: Chi_FFC on October 09, 2025, 11:41:43 PMQuote from: cookieg on October 09, 2025, 07:35:30 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
Of course all of the relevant stats show that the defense in front of our GK has gotten better every season we've been in the PL while unfortunately Bernd has gotten progressively worse. If Bernd had been just a roughly average PL level shot stopper last season we'd have almost certainly comfortably finished at least a couple spots higher in the table. And while it's a little too early in the current season to draw any conclusions about whether there's been any improvement from Leno, the early returns are not terribly promising.
And if we'd have scored more goals we would have finished higher. If we'd have been able to defend a lead more often we would have finished higher. To single out Leno for us not being higher up the table and in Europe is a bit harsh. If we are closing down the opposition and stopping the shots we concede less. Not fannying around at the back and giving away the ball would also help.
Actually, only Arsenal, Newcastle and Man Utd have allowed LESS shots than we have (9.71 per 90), we are better than Man City, Liverpool & Chelsea in this regard, but we're still conceding more.
Now, I'm not putting that all on Leno but...
I for one have never really warmed up to Leno.Ā I know a lot of forum members like him and think he is very good.Ā I don't.Ā Bang average in my view, and that's being very generous.Ā Over the past 2-3 seasons I think I've given him my motm vote maybe only two or three times.Ā I will always give credit when due, but it just doesn't happen that much for Leno.Ā Keepers are part of the team (of course) and can have big impact on results.Ā I just don't think he's keeping his end up.Ā I place the Bournemouth loss squarely on him.Ā How he doesn't close off the short side properly and allow that goal was very poor.Ā Gave momentum to home side and we saw the end result.Ā He's not the worst keeper in the league, merely serviceable, adequate, will occasionally make some nice saves and keep the team in the game, but for me the main reason this thread is being considered and why clean sheets have been so hard to come by.
Quote from: cookieg on October 10, 2025, 07:36:02 AMQuote from: Chi_FFC on October 09, 2025, 11:41:43 PMQuote from: cookieg on October 09, 2025, 07:35:30 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
Of course all of the relevant stats show that the defense in front of our GK has gotten better every season we've been in the PL while unfortunately Bernd has gotten progressively worse. If Bernd had been just a roughly average PL level shot stopper last season we'd have almost certainly comfortably finished at least a couple spots higher in the table. And while it's a little too early in the current season to draw any conclusions about whether there's been any improvement from Leno, the early returns are not terribly promising.
And if we'd have scored more goals we would have finished higher. If we'd have been able to defend a lead more often we would have finished higher. To single out Leno for us not being higher up the table and in Europe is a bit harsh.
Tbf this is a thread about keeping clean sheets so it makes sense that my post was focused on the defense and if you look at all the relevant stats it's obvious that goalkeeping was the weak leak in our defense last season.
We allowed 54 goals (T11th in the PL) with a xGA of 47.2 (5th in PL) and a PSxG (post shot expected goals) of 48.9 (7th in PL). And for those who don't like advanced stats we allowed 159 shots on target (9th in the PL). However, our PSxG-GA (post shot expected goals minus goals allowed...the advanced goalkeeping shot stopping statistic) was -3.1 (17th of 20 in the PL).
Quote from: WindyCity on October 10, 2025, 03:42:44 PMI for one have never really warmed up to Leno.
1) We know and 2) that's not something I'd be bragging about if I were you. He was PHENOMENAL in 22-23, one of the two best keepers in the Premier League (and really should have been our POTS...or at the very least co-POTS), and you were still bizzarely critical of him at that time.
I used to rate Leno as a very decent keeper but I think his standards have slipped over the past couple of seasons and I would hope the club might start looking at upgrades next summer.
Yes I also believe we should be looking for a better all round quality first team keeper now.
Quote from: Chi_FFC on October 10, 2025, 04:03:37 PMQuote from: cookieg on October 10, 2025, 07:36:02 AMQuote from: Chi_FFC on October 09, 2025, 11:41:43 PMQuote from: cookieg on October 09, 2025, 07:35:30 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 09, 2025, 03:31:18 PMThere is another thread on this page about clean sheets (lack thereof).
Rather than looking at defensive setups, coach game plans, lack of goal scoring et al, one might want to take a look at the keeper.
If the players in front of Leno aren't doing their job properly then he will concede goals. even the best keepers concede if their defence and midfield aren't stopping the shots etc.
Of course all of the relevant stats show that the defense in front of our GK has gotten better every season we've been in the PL while unfortunately Bernd has gotten progressively worse. If Bernd had been just a roughly average PL level shot stopper last season we'd have almost certainly comfortably finished at least a couple spots higher in the table. And while it's a little too early in the current season to draw any conclusions about whether there's been any improvement from Leno, the early returns are not terribly promising.
And if we'd have scored more goals we would have finished higher. If we'd have been able to defend a lead more often we would have finished higher. To single out Leno for us not being higher up the table and in Europe is a bit harsh.
Tbf this is a thread about keeping clean sheets so it makes sense that my post was focused on the defense and if you look at all the relevant stats it's obvious that goalkeeping was the weak leak in our defense last season.
We allowed 54 goals (T11th in the PL) with a xGA of 47.2 (5th in PL) and a PSxG (post shot expected goals) of 48.9 (7th in PL). And for those who don't like advanced stats we allowed 159 shots on target (9th in the PL). However, our PSxG-GA (post shot expected goals minus goals allowed...the advanced goalkeeping shot stopping statistic) was -3.1 (17th of 20 in the PL).
You can use as many stats as you like to support your arguement but if the other 10 players aren't doing what they can to stop the shots coming in then to single out Leno is harsh but if that floats your boat good luck to you.
Take the goal the other night, Cairney hadn't let their player shoot Leno doesn'tĀ get beaten. How about putting a stat out that shows the goals scored from missed tackles, fannying around at the back or missed placed passes then use that to see how many goals are purely down to Leno.
Quote from: cookieg on October 11, 2025, 02:40:05 PMYou can use as many stats as you like to support your arguement but if the other 10 players aren't doing what they can to stop the shots coming in then to single out Leno is harsh but if that floats your boat good luck to you.
Mate, that's exactly what a number of the stats I've cited to tell us, that is how good of a job the 10 players in front of the GK are doing in preventing opponent chances. And those stats show that last season in the aggregate those 10 players did a really good job. Again, our xGA of 47.2 was 5th in the PL, better than Chelsea, Man City, Bournemouth, Forest etc..yet we allowed more goals than all of them (and more). Why is that? Well again, the stats show it was primarily down to our goalkeeping (17th of 20 in the PL in the advanced shot stopping statistic). There's just no getting around it, when you're talking about our defense last season Bernd Leno was the weakest link.
A lot has changed since the 22-23 season when our defense in front of the GK was a leaky sieve and Bernd was saving their bacon (and one of the two best keepers in the league).
Quote from: cookieg on October 11, 2025, 02:40:05 PMYou can use as many stats as you like to support your arguement but if the other 10 players aren't doing what they can to stop the shots coming in then to single out Leno is harsh but if that floats your boat good luck to you.
Mate, that's exactly what a number of the stats I've cited to tell us, that is how good of a job the 10 players in front of the GK are doing in preventing opponent chances. And those stats show that last season in the aggregate those 10 players did a really good job. Again, our xGA of 47.2 was 5th in the PL, better than Chelsea, Man City, Bournemouth, Forest etc..yet we allowed more goals than all of them (and more). Why is that? Well again, the stats show it was primarily down to our goalkeeping (17th of 20 in the PL in the advanced shot stopping statistic). There's just no getting around it, when you're talking about our defense last season Bernd Leno was the weakest link.
A lot has changed since the 22-23 season when our defense in front of the GK was a leaky sieve and Bernd was saving their bacon (and one of the two best keepers in the league).
https://x.com/CottageTactico/status/1976342478438748227
Interesting to see the stats on Leno and it confirms some of the fears. Wonder how many times in the past few seasons opposition fans will have come away saying how well he did.
Unless he improves, then his position would rightfully be under threat a bit.
Quote from: Chi_FFC on October 10, 2025, 04:23:26 PMQuote from: WindyCity on October 10, 2025, 03:42:44 PMI for one have never really warmed up to Leno.
1) We know and 2) that's not something I'd be bragging about if I were you. He was PHENOMENAL in 22-23, one of the two best keepers in the Premier League (and really should have been our POTS...or at the very least co-POTS), and you were still bizzarely critical of him at that time.
Who's bragging?Ā Not sure where that comes from.Ā I'm just sharing my opinion/viewpoint, I assume that's what this forum is all about, discussing and sharing.Ā No need to get your panties all twisted up in a bunch.Ā We all have our own opinions, and you are certainly entitled to yours.Ā In my view, I would never characterize any season Leno has had with FFC as 'phenomenal'.Ā Again, just my opinion.....
Quote from: WindyCity on October 11, 2025, 04:59:52 PMIn my view, I would never characterize any season Leno has had with FFC as 'phenomenal'.Ā Again, just my opinion.....
I suppose everyone is entitled to an opinion, even when, to be blunt, it's ridiculous (and I'm being kind here).
22-23 Premier League Goals Prevented
1) Bernd Leno 9.5 (highest in the PL since this stat has been calculated)
2) Alisson 8.5
3) Pickford 4.0
22-23 PL Post Shot Expected Goals minus Goals Allowed
1) Alisson 10.1
2) Leno 9 (5th best in the PL since this stat has been calculated)
3) Raya 5.1
22-23 PL Save Percentage (for those who don't like the fancy advanced stats)
1) Raya 77.7
2) Leno 77.1
22-23 Fulham xGA of 63.6 (16th of 20 in the PL), 196 Shots on target allowed (18th of 20 in the PL)...actual goals allowed 53 (10th in the PL). Our defense in front of Leno was a sieve that season and he was most definitely phenomenal.
Statistics are like bikinis.Ā They show a lot, but not everything........
Seems to me that teams don't have to work hard enough to score multiple goals . Take the last 2 games.Ā Neither Villa or Bournemouth did enough for me to score 3 goals. We tend to have to batter teams to do that . In both games we were in control of the game , probably playing better .
In terms of the goal scoring we often get in a good situation and then fail to have a shot . We were in similar counterattack positions to Bournemoutha third goal on numerous occasions occasions but never looked like scoring from them . Bournemouth stretched us once and scored .