No 3 points, but from a neutrals perspective, what a game, as it finishes Fulham 4 Man City 5 at the Cottage. Give us all your Post Match feedback after that 9 goal thriller!
Was Marco Silva right to start with the Berge and Lukic pairing after Spurs, did we show Man City far to much respect from the start?
Let us know your thoughts below
::scarf::
ESR and Chuk MOTM. With a shout to Wilson What grit and fight.
Also, JKA minutes he looked good. Kevin as well. All in all, it showed a ton of heart.
The defense on the other hand needs to be addressed.
I would like us to sign Chuk. He gets game time here, surrounded by his Nigerian teammates, etc.
Was only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
On the plus side we stopped our goal difference taking a proper hammering. Absolutely baffling why we started the game with the XI and tactics we did, Coty are so porous this season and we basically sat there and let them dictate the game. Lo and behold as soon as we get at them they folded like they did the weekend against Leeds, who'd have thought it...
Quote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
Ok....now breath....
So, that's what it feels like to almost enjoy losing a game...
Can't fault any player... Mr Silva made quick positive decisions...the team has definitely got it's MOJO back...on balance probably should have been a draw
Sorry, but think Tom Cairney's time is up after today's showing
Quote from: Deeping_white on December 02, 2025, 09:36:38 PMOn the plus side we stopped our goal difference taking a proper hammering. Absolutely baffling why we started the game with the XI and tactics we did, Coty are so porous this season and we basically sat there and let them dictate the game. Lo and behold as soon as we get at them they folded like they did the weekend against Leeds, who'd have thought it...
You can't take the end result and say we started with the tactics wrong. It's not that easy. If we went more attacking early, Man City would have picked us apart. They were top notch in the 1H. We really opened up when Man City when defensive.
Holy poo. I feel both exhilirated and sick at the same time. So so close to a Premier League all timer.
As everyone would've been, i was furious that we were 5-1 down, we simply cannot be conceding goals like that.
What was brilliant to see, was the fight and heart we showed after that, to not only compete but run rampant over City in the last 30 minutes of the game. Brilliant strikes, Chukwueze looks like a star, get that man a contract already! ::scarf::
Also, it was good to see JKA not only get decent minutes, but he put in a good shift, and that should hopefully do wonders for his confidence, and thus also allow Raul to get some additional rest towards the end of games.
In summary, it was wonderful to see the fight and the courage from the team in the last 30 minutes, but we need to be able to do that without conceding 5 goals beforehand. At least after that we can take some positives away from the game, which didn't look the case early in the second half.
Quote from: Friendsoffulham on December 02, 2025, 09:31:51 PMNo 3 points, but from a neutrals perspective, what a game, as it finishes Fulham 4 Man City 5 at the Cottage. Give us all your Post Match feedback after that 9 goal thriller!
Was Marco Silva right to start with the Berge and Lukic pairing after Spurs, did we show Man City far to much respect from the start?
Let us know your thoughts below
::scarf::
yes and probably
No one enjoys losing, but when you're getting hammered, and you're hoping for the final whistle at the 54th minute, that was some performance. Hope no one left when the 5th goal went in...
I would like to see Marco with more subbing like that (of course not always). Sometimes subbing before the 85th minute works (almost)...
Quote from: _Putney_ on December 02, 2025, 09:40:05 PMSorry, but think Tom Cairney's time is up after today's showing
Ay?!
Praise Marco for how we play. Criticism for not going at them from the start. No idea why Chuk was on the bench. They were there for the taking.
At one point it felt like it was going to be 8 or 9 - 1 to City, easy. Felt like Haaland would get 4 or 5.
It was a terrific showing by Fulham in the 2nd half, spurred on by that late first goal in the first half.
For some reason we didn't quite keep pushing on in that last 15 minutes for that equaliser, maybe the subs weren't the right ones, I definitely would have kept ESR on who was unusually fired up, but I guess he may have been knackered.
Still, overall, a great game, against a Man City team who are almost back to their very best....Just could have been one of The Great Games.
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on December 02, 2025, 09:37:38 PMOk....now breath....
So, that's what it feels like to almost enjoy losing a game...
Can't fault any player... Mr Silva made quick positive decisions...the team has definitely got it's MOJO back...on balance probably should have been a draw
I'm usually a pillar of positivity but Lukic was woeful. Berge also a problem, far too passive/negative on and off the ball.
The rest of them were wonderful, Bassey MOM though, which is maybe controversial considering we conceded 5 haha
Totally different team when Lukic doesn't play. He was poor in the first half and if he starts many more matches we will definitely be in a relegation battle. A total hindrance
Iwobi and Berge together then 2 of Wilson, Chukweze or Kevin is the way forward
Quote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Yes. Haaland!
Seriously though I thought Andersen was well below par. Looking his age and a bit lightweight. Nobody else distinguished themselves defensively but they were up against a top class attack.
Quote from: _Putney_ on December 02, 2025, 09:40:05 PMSorry, but think Tom Cairney's time is up after today's showing
Yeah, he was terrible tonight 🤷🏻
Despite losing tonight that effort won't have dented our confidence, in fact several of our lads can be very proud of their efforts.
When the dust settles however Marco has to have a long think about our defensive capabilities. Leno seems to me to be nearing the end of his time as a first choice keeper, the Berge/ Lukic pairing needs rethinking, Andersen blows hot and cold and unfortunately so does Bassey.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
Hmm Leno biggest culprit imo!
Especially on two goals. Also Castagne didn't help with giving the ball away in the pen area.
Even so, we were exceptional in the comeback and soo unlucky at the end.
ESR was superb as was Chuk (as usual).
Biggest gripe was same as Deeping White - why did Marco start with a negative attacking lineup?
Why does Marco STILL not see the potential in Chuk and Kevin?
Still a great night!
::scarf::
From 1-5 we were sensational, who expected that? I was worried of conceding 8. So close to 5-5 against team going for the title. ESR and Chuck were brilliant. Well played lads. ::scarf:: :claping20hands:
Quote from: _Putney_ on December 02, 2025, 09:40:05 PMSorry, but think Tom Cairney's time is up after today's showing
Yep. completely invisible.
We started with berge and lucik over Iwobi.
Marco should have started the same team v spurs and we would have won ,chuck is only going to become a regular starter.
Good showing from asari for an 18 year old.Best team lost,but Fulham are back on track.
Final word 2 sides of a brilliant Iwobi
Class CM.
Quote from: LittleErn on December 02, 2025, 09:42:29 PMQuote from: Friendsoffulham on December 02, 2025, 09:31:51 PMNo 3 points, but from a neutrals perspective, what a game, as it finishes Fulham 4 Man City 5 at the Cottage. Give us all your Post Match feedback after that 9 goal thriller!
Was Marco Silva right to start with the Berge and Lukic pairing after Spurs, did we show Man City far to much respect from the start?
Let us know your thoughts below
::scarf::
yes and probably
OOPS! No and possibly!🤷🏼�♂️
Quote from: BestOfBrede on December 02, 2025, 09:47:34 PMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
Hmm Leno biggest culprit imo!
Especially on two goals. Also Castagne didn't help with giving the ball away in the pen area.
Even so, we were exceptional in the comeback and soo unlucky at the end.
ESR was superb as was Chuk (as usual).
Biggest gripe was same as Deeping White - why did Marco start with a negative attacking lineup?
Why does Marco STILL not see the potential in Chuk and Kevin?
Still a great night!
::scarf::
Andersen gave the ball away, if you're talking about the 5th goal.
Although ESR and Chuk were undoubtedly the stars of the show, how do you all think JKA did? I thought he looked surprisingly composed and a decent player. Option to buy is only £11m and he's just 18, so a lot of potential upside. Might be worth giving him a bit more game time, at least as a sub, to give him a fair chance to prove his worth.
Quote from: LittleErn on December 02, 2025, 09:48:39 PMQuote from: _Putney_ on December 02, 2025, 09:40:05 PMSorry, but think Tom Cairney's time is up after today's showing
Yep. completely invisible.
I stopped looking for him after a while... :guitar-playHDs:
Quote from: _Putney_ on December 02, 2025, 09:40:05 PMSorry, but think Tom Cairney's time is up after today's showing
He was so poor I forgot he was playing.
A little unfortunate our best players currently are Iwobi, Chukweze and Bassey and we will be losing them for the AFCON ☹️
Too much hindsight going on, shoulda...woulda...coulda. If Berge was more narrow in the box he'd have ended up on the end of King's finish to make it 5-5. If Sess was tighter to Halaand on the 1st, it wouldn't have gone in, if he was tight on the headed-post from the City forward again, it may have gone in, who knows.
What is certain is the players are up for it. The confidence has to be sky high right now. Chuk is incredible. I remember posting here in the transfers about how much he'd be someone we need from Milan - can only imagine what his conversation with Rjeinders was like after the match (former Milan players).
Kevin was good too, but he needs more sample size in match defining moments. A corner with no time left, it's got to be quality - he has to be up for it.
In the end, brilliant match, and I'm glad I didn't just fast forward it. I genuinely wondered what we were going to do down 5-1. Bring on Palace.
A little unfortunate our best players currently are Iwobi, Chukweze and Bassey and we will be losing them for the AFCON ☹️
I can remember us losing to Citeh by the same score in the 80's. Ivor scored 4 in that game.
Good to see the fight in the team tonight, Iwobi has to plsy midfield and Chuck have to play.
There was a stat a few weeks ago that Leno is the slowest player in the PL. Usually you don't worry too much about that for a keeper, but I think a quicker keeper stops Foden's 2nd goal by covering the angle better, and maybe gets to the through ball from which Reijnders scored before Reijnders. I'll need to see the goals again but it felt like he moved slowly. I also think he could have claimed the corner that he punched straight to Foden.
Marco needs to have an honest word with himself as that first half was shocking. Embarrassing.
Passive, submissive & seemingly in awe of them. As we always are.
Respect them fine but start with intent to win the game. It's commendable to go for it at 1-3 & 1-5 but have a bit of belief & go for it from the off.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:51:44 PMQuote from: BestOfBrede on December 02, 2025, 09:47:34 PMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
Hmm Leno biggest culprit imo!
Especially on two goals. Also Castagne didn't help with giving the ball away in the pen area.
Even so, we were exceptional in the comeback and soo unlucky at the end.
ESR was superb as was Chuk (as usual).
Biggest gripe was same as Deeping White - why did Marco start with a negative attacking lineup?
Why does Marco STILL not see the potential in Chuk and Kevin?
Still a great night!
::scarf::
Andersen gave the ball away, if you're talking about the 5th goal.
Ok sorry, I thought it was Castagne!
I decided to stop watching after it was 3-0. How was JKA when he came on?
Quote from: demeant0r on December 02, 2025, 10:07:45 PMI decided to stop watching after it was 3-0. How was JKA when he came on?
Good. Liked his movement, touch & he chased down defenders.
I don't mind either Berge or Lukic but not both, the moment Iwobi when back to the middle we looked great. Time for Silva to take the fight to the team and not shy away
Two goals should have been blocked by Sess but he never goes face on to block.This should have been coached away by now.It is a regular feature.
Quote from: ffc73 on December 02, 2025, 10:12:49 PMQuote from: demeant0r on December 02, 2025, 10:07:45 PMI decided to stop watching after it was 3-0. How was JKA when he came on?
Good. Liked his movement, touch & he chased down defenders.
Good, let's hope he continues to get minutes then. Might get ourselves a bargain if he turns out to be good.
The penalty shout? JKA is definitely in front of Reilly, he's about to take control of the ball. Given if the other way.
57% possession against City.
Quote from: demeant0r on December 02, 2025, 10:07:45 PMI decided to stop watching after it was 3-0. How was JKA when he came on?
By far his best appearance. Miles better than that cup game where he looked lost. It seems like he's starting to settle in better. Hopefully he'll come on for Raul in the next game too.
The last time there was a 4-5 score was Forfar 4 East Fife 5 (Two Ronnies I think)
Bogey team at home Palace next. Lets score 4 goals and concede 0 this time!
Anyone else think King should have scored at the end,needed to just flick it a bit harder and it would have gone in.
https://youtu.be/RAHu0q2FurM?si=RUWg7fS11u3Y2YZt
Man City Fans Sweaty Reactions compilation Video
Quote from: Coastwalker on December 02, 2025, 10:53:15 PMAnyone else think King should have scored at the end,needed to just flick it a bit harder and it would have gone in.
Rewatched it on Sky. He's so unlucky in my opinion. Tight angle and lifts it which was the only way he could score. Keeper just gets a little touch to slow it very slightly and defender makes a great clearance off the line. Without the keeper touch think it might have gone in. Devastating as just imagine that went in...would have been epic. 😭
Just noticed that I was 1 corner away from a 175/1 bet coming off...
(Fulham to score in both halves and 4+ corners in each half... We only got 3 in the first unfortunately).
Ah well,.it was only a 50p bet, and I still won £20 on ESR scoring.
Five shots on target against over the last two matches, zero saves from Leno and 6 goals allowed (City's last tonight was on OG). Obviously no howlers, but 6 goals allowed from a combined xG of 3.07 and xGOT of 2.42 is...not ideal...
Quote from: Coastwalker on December 02, 2025, 10:53:15 PMAnyone else think King should have scored at the end,needed to just flick it a bit harder and it would have gone in.
Yea im sort of with you on this. But the ball came in at quite a pace so I reckon thats why he didn't connect with more power.
Quote from: Steeeeeeeeeed on December 02, 2025, 11:01:59 PMJust noticed that I was 1 corner away from a 175/1 bet coming off...
(Fulham to score in both halves and 4( corners in each half... We only got 3 in the first unfortunately).
Ah well,.it was only a 50p bet, and I still won £20 on ESR scoring.
Unlucky bud
Not sure what to think of the game. On one hand I am incredibly proud of the players and our attack looked good, on the other hand if Haaland brings his shootin boots we probably concede 7 or 8.
Bassey let the ball bounce a couple of times against Haaland which is just completely unacceptable. Anderson looked really poor, lost count how many times his passes went to a City player. Lukić passing was poor, at one point in time he had three straight passes to a City player.
You can start to see this team clicking in the places we've been the weakest this season, so hopefully it can continue. We have a host of winnable games ahead in Dec, lets get after it.
We were a few defensive lapses away from beating that lot tonight. A real good performance.
Sorry just to clarify, we've got an option on chuk?
Quote from: Steeeeeeeeeed on December 02, 2025, 11:01:59 PMJust noticed that I was 1 corner away from a 175/1 bet coming off...
(Fulham to score in both halves and 4( corners in each half... We only got 3 in the first unfortunately).
Ah well,.it was only a 50p bet, and I still won £20 on ESR scoring.
50p.... you're in my league of betting
Where to start analysing that? No other sport has the ability to serve stuff like that up. I love football.
There's some obvious lessons to be learned from tonight that if acted upon should set us up for a decent season, but they can keep. Tonight I'm going to sip a rum and just enjoy what remains of the evening. Football's great.
Some strange posts on this thread IMO. Citeh were, for much of the game, very good. Their movement was excellent, they pressed us very well and when we went forward they were well organised. Their first 5 shots gave them 4 goals and one against the post. They were incisive and clinical That said, even when we were 2 goals down (2 nil, 3 1, 5 3) I still thought we were in with a chance, and so it proved. I don't think our back line was very much at fault, more that we were so open in midfield and gave the ball away so much. And I struggle to think which of their goals Leno 'should' really have stopped.
The ref was gutted when he had to o book the City player for kicking the ball away. How he warned their keeper five times for time wasting without a booking is a mystery to me.
I do think Iwobi is our best player overall and consistently, and is a great "all round" player, good at everything.
i feel like he is the heartbeat of the team, and feel.sometimes he is wasted playing on the sides, I really like him in the centre of midfield, he brings out the best in the team there.
Quote from: onecupsoon on December 02, 2025, 10:27:19 PM57% possession against City.
City only had 4 shots on target (one deflection went in) according to BBC Stats (though Haaland hit the woodwork twice too).
Quote from: hongkongfulham on December 02, 2025, 09:46:16 PMQuote from: H4usuallysitting on December 02, 2025, 09:37:38 PMOk....now breath....
So, that's what it feels like to almost enjoy losing a game...
Can't fault any player... Mr Silva made quick positive decisions...the team has definitely got it's MOJO back...on balance probably should have been a draw
I'm usually a pillar of positivity but Lukic was woeful. Berge also a problem, far too passive/negative on and off the ball.
The rest of them were wonderful, Bassey MOM though, which is maybe controversial considering we conceded 5 haha
Berge a problem? He was class second half. Granted bassey was best defender but mom? Thought they were all poor. Leno terrible.
Incredible result considering Leno was thinking of his Christmas shopping list.
Both Managers Post Match Press Conferences...
https://www.youtube.com/live/KxKJl3rYANk?si=uat45_Q7DEiDPBXG
The worst player on our team this match was the Berge-Lukic pivot. I don't know what Marco's intention was with his initial setup. Lukic was sitting on the right touchline half the time. No wonder City has the run of midfield.
https://www.youtube.com/live/MKZZKBcAsfk?si=n1vvRp07wgiRShkE
Full Radio Commentary (TalkSport) of the game,
At 1.17.00 ish the some of the Crowd are starting to walk out.
At 1.18.00 ish, Fulham make it 2-5...
And is a good listen from there onwards
The City fans here all said the same- amazing fight from this Fulham team. Exciting wings that are hard to contain. Utter trash defensive midfielders. Their words, not mine.
Quote from: spoonffc on December 02, 2025, 11:19:26 PMSorry just to clarify, we've got an option on chuk?
€25m allegedly, looking more and more like a steal.
Incredibly proud of the performance, and don't want to give Marco too much stick, but felt like a missed opportunity last night. Every good performance this season has been with iwobi at the centre of the park, and the Berge Lukic axis just isn't working. King in the 8 during afcon?
Anybody at the game would have seen a great performance from Berge
City strength moving forward was simply unstoppable in first half - although we did loaf around and watch them like schoolboys
Couldn't really deal with OReilly pressing in Tete leaving Doku spare
Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 02, 2025, 11:29:43 PMSome strange posts on this thread IMO. Citeh were, for much of the game, very good. Their movement was excellent, they pressed us very well and when we went forward they were well organised. Their first 5 shots gave them 4 goals and one against the post. They were incisive and clinical That said, even when we were 2 goals down (2 nil, 3 1, 5 3) I still thought we were in with a chance, and so it proved. I don't think our back line was very much at fault, more that we were so open in midfield and gave the ball away so much. And I struggle to think which of their goals Leno 'should' really have stopped.
Largely how I saw it. All the Leno bashing a bit odd as their goals were either very good or the fault of players other than him. Some using xG stats to bash him but from being at the game and watching replays the eye test does not match that. Citeh were just clinical with their chances.
Defence was all at sea on occasions but as Southcoast said, they had woeful midfield cover most the game - was far from Lukic's best game but he's just coming back from injury so that was more the issue rather than he's become a bad player overnight that some on here now opine (nonsense). I agree with the sentiment though that we showed them far too much respect from KO and maybe should have started Iwobi next to Berge / Chuk kept his place and gone at them (thought that before KO as well to be fair), but hindsight is the most wonderful and useless superpower of them all.
By Christ we showed some fight though - the lads definitely playing for both the manager and the shirt so very proud of them. Think how easy it would've been to let your heads drop at 0-3 and 1-5 but they kept going. So close to one of the all time great comebacks.
Shame we're about to lose the Nigerian crew for AFCON as they have become the heartbeat of this team. We definitely need a CM to cover Iwobi's loss pretty much in the door on New Years Day and I think Silva has foreseen this since 1 Sept. Even if they are in the door early Jan it will take them a while to get up to speed so I'm buckling up for a hairy festive season/New Year period.
Other points - Cuenca has been top draw when he's played so maybe should have been integrated a bit more and given a few more starts prior to Bassey going to keep his confidence up / make him feel like he's more than just an understudy. Also Kevin and JKA looked good which is pleasing as we will need them firing - especially over the congested festive season.
Also credit to ESR - earned his start and was the only danger in the first half. Now our joint top league goal scorer with OG!
He's not the creative ball carrier I thought he'd be but he's good at arriving in the box and gets on the end of things. Can beat a player in certain situations but much more often tends to try and beat players with movements and quick 1-2 passing with team mates. Not what I thought he'd be but definitely a good player when his confidence is up. I think his mentality is the key as to whether he kicks on or not but there is definitely a capable and clever player in there.
Not sure if the spirited second half fightback is a huge papering over the cracks of conceding 5 goals in under an hour?
I have no doubt if the game goes on another 5-10mins we don't lose but though some will be on a high from that second half performance the reality was some x rated self inflicted passages of play from Fulham. Possibly teams not of the calibre of City's attacking prowess would not of been so clinical but that's a big takeaway from last night why so open and sloppy against them of all teams? They are as vulnerable at the back as most teams towards the bottom of this league but if you are going to roll out the red carpet like we did for an hour then you'll get punished like we did.
I really thought we had a chance of getting at least a point against them last night leading up to the game and full marks for the courageous effort in the second half and though there will be lot's of patting on the back for nearly pulling off the impossible just hope that first half performance is not just swept under the carpet.
I really hope the first player in come January is a midfielder who has more vision and attacking prowess as opposed to the back sideways back we are having to watch week in week out. We are taking defensive midfielders to the extreme.
Fully understood Silva decision to bring Lukic back last night but he must be scratching his head now to see his two deep sitting midfielders failing to get the basics right for long periods and offer little to nothing in terms of protection.
On to another bogey team at home next ! Palace manager outwitted Marco in both home games last season so hopefully we get the tactics right against the way they setup.
Though beaten on the night hopefully still a bit of momentum to carry forward to Palace game.
Don't know how to analyse that, was certainly brilliant fun and had shades of Juventus - I thought we were going to get that fifth goal to equalise, and there was so much belief all around the ground. Just an incredible ride.
The big positives for me are ESR putting in another fine performance, that's a good few in a row. He looked our best player in that first half. Chukwueze is absolutely dynamite, what a performance - and two fabulous goals. I just love Iwobi in the 8 as well. I really like Kevin, his first touch, ball control and trickery are so impressive, just a shame that final corner couldn't be delivered into a more dangerous area. King did very well coming off the bench too.
The disappointing thing was that we had a really low intensity and I think showed them too much respect in that first half which put us in what seemed like an impossible position. Could have been worse too with Haaland somehow hitting the inside of the post. Lukic had a worrying outing yesterday - we need him in form during the crucial AFCON period. The defence and keeper didn't cover themselves in glory at times as well. Seen a bit of debate on Leno, but he was quite slow on Foden's second and dealt badly with the corner for Foden's first. Doku is a fine player who we didn't know what to do with all game.
We badly need to improve at set pieces too, although if Chukwueze wants to keep scoring screamers from headers out then I guess it doesn't matter.
Overall it was the daftest, most entertaining game of football and went from bitterly disappointed, to somehow elated but also gutted. Never had such a funny mix of emotions. The Cottage was absolutely brilliant yesterday, and think did a good job keeping the players going during some difficult moments. Not sure I'll ever see the Cottage so happy in defeat.
Neutrals everywhere calling it game of the season and a modern classic.
Quote from: JimmyConway on December 03, 2025, 09:42:00 AMFully understood Silva decision to bring Lukic back last night but he must be scratching his head now to see his two deep sitting midfielders failing to get the basics right for long periods and offer little to nothing in terms of protection.
Disagree with this bit. I thought Lukic's passing and first touch were both very poor yesterday and he was rightfully subbed off. However, I don't think that partnership has anything to do with why we conceded any of the three goals. For the first goal, every one of our defenders was just ball watching. No one tried to stop the cross and once the cross was made everyone continued to stand still. Second goal, Andersen overcommits and Bassey's positioning is poor. Third goal, Leno should have done better with the cross, but the goal itself was just pure skill from Foden. If you look at the stats, Lukic was probably our best player defensively in the first half(which isn't saying much) and Berge did okay too. Again, the problem with Lukic yesterday was poor passing and first touch and he eas rightfully subbed off.
Quote from: Matt10 on December 02, 2025, 09:56:26 PMToo much hindsight going on, shoulda...woulda...coulda. If Berge was more narrow in the box he'd have ended up on the end of King's finish to make it 5-5. If Sess was tighter to Halaand on the 1st, it wouldn't have gone in, if he was tight on the headed-post from the City forward again, it may have gone in, who knows.
What is certain is the players are up for it. The confidence has to be sky high right now. Chuk is incredible. I remember posting here in the transfers about how much he'd be someone we need from Milan - can only imagine what his conversation with Rjeinders was like after the match (former Milan players).
Kevin was good too, but he needs more sample size in match defining moments. A corner with no time left, it's got to be quality - he has to be up for it.
In the end, brilliant match, and I'm glad I didn't just fast forward it. I genuinely wondered what we were going to do down 5-1. Bring on Palace.
Ahh that famous word that can change the world. "IF"
Quote from: Nick Bateman on December 03, 2025, 01:04:34 AMIncredible result considering Leno was thinking of his Christmas shopping list.
And you watched the match did you Nick?
Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 02, 2025, 11:29:43 PMSome strange posts on this thread IMO. Citeh were, for much of the game, very good. Their movement was excellent, they pressed us very well and when we went forward they were well organised. Their first 5 shots gave them 4 goals and one against the post. They were incisive and clinical That said, even when we were 2 goals down (2 nil, 3 1, 5 3) I still thought we were in with a chance, and so it proved. I don't think our back line was very much at fault, more that we were so open in midfield and gave the ball away so much. And I struggle to think which of their goals Leno 'should' really have stopped.
This sums it up for me.
When they are at their best City are very easy on the eye even when they do the hard stuff and they put us under immense pressure every time we had the ball in the first half.
It could easily have been 1-5 at half time but after the 2 early second half goals they backed off.
I don't put any blame on Leno but I would have hoped a top PL keeper would have done better with the punch and Foden's second!
This allowed us the freedom to play and Iwobi's goal changed the game and they were stuck defending deep.
Physically and mentally no team can press and play like they did for 90 mins so it was inevitable that they would sit on their 1-5 lead.
We still had to lift our game and take advantage and we did, it was just a bit too far to achieve a deserved draw.
I don't attach any blame on Leno foor the result but I would hope a top PL keeper does better with the punch and even Foden's 2nd goal.
I know Chukwueze grabbed all the headlines and he was really impressive and deserves all the praise he's getting, but I would still vote for ESR as MOTM. When everyone was bellow par, he was having an incredible performance. Without him, I don't think anything that happened lated would be possible. His goal late in the first half was also incredibly important and gave us a glimmer of hope in what was a pretty depressing half.
He is someone who is scapegoated every single week pretty much and that's probably something that takes a toll on him too, but he showed incredible character today, especially when a lot of players were struggling, he drove us forward and was creating problems for them throughout his time on the pitch.
Hats off to Emile, and hopefully this performance will silence some of his critics.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 03, 2025, 12:27:56 PMI know Chukwueze grabbed all the headlines and he was really impressive and deserves all the praise he's getting, but I would still vote for ESR as MOTM. When everyone was bellow par, he was having an incredible performance. Without him, I don't think anything that happened lated would be possible. His goal late in the first half was also incredibly important and gave us a glimmer of hope in what was a pretty depressing half.
He is someone who is scapegoated every single week pretty much and that's probably something that takes a toll on him too, but he showed incredible character today, especially when a lot of players were struggling, he drove us forward and was creating problems for them throughout his time on the pitch.
Hats off to Emile, and hopefully this performance will silence some of his critics.
Ever since the Wolves game he's been doing well. The Sunderland one really turned the needle for me, and he's backed that up with two more great performances.
I'm really pleased, he's showing the quality we all know he has - but he seems to be getting into games and fighting for the cause now.
Quote from: hopper on December 03, 2025, 12:41:12 PMEver since the Wolves game he's been doing well. The Sunderland one really turned the needle for me, and he's backed that up with two more great performances.
I'm really pleased, he's showing the quality we all know he has - but he seems to be getting into games and fighting for the cause now.
I personally think he's been quite good all season. He's unlucky that King had a great start of the season too, and they can't reeplay together at the moment (I think once King bulks up they will be able to play together in the 8 and 10 roles respectively). Often overhated by fans (mostly on twitter, but sometimes here too).
After the final whistle I switched to Radio 5 live to hear what they were saying. They were full of our comeback with one pundit saying how the wonderful old Craven Cattage was buzzing. He then said it was Craven Cottage where he experienced his most memorable atmosphere EVER at a final whistle. This when Fulham beat Juventus 4-1 in the Europa Cup run. Nice to know. ::scarf::
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 03, 2025, 12:43:49 PMQuote from: hopper on December 03, 2025, 12:41:12 PMEver since the Wolves game he's been doing well. The Sunderland one really turned the needle for me, and he's backed that up with two more great performances.
I'm really pleased, he's showing the quality we all know he has - but he seems to be getting into games and fighting for the cause now.
I personally think he's been quite good all season. He's unlucky that King had a great start of the season too, and they can't reeplay together at the moment (I think once King bulks up they will be able to play together in the 8 and 10 roles respectively). Often overhated by fans (mostly on twitter, but sometimes here too).
I was resistant to idea of King and ESR together in 8 and 10 because of physicality, but seeing how much better we are front footed with Iwobi in there - I think I'd like to try it. We look so much better when front footed.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
That's interesting with Bassey, there are some people giving him MOTM, just goes to show that we all see things in different ways.
Quote from: alfie on December 03, 2025, 02:22:39 PMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
That's interesting with Bassey, there are some people giving him MOTM, just goes to show that we all see things in different ways.
In my opinion a defender who has conceded 5 goals in a game can't be MOTM.
Quote from: alfie on December 03, 2025, 02:22:39 PMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
That's interesting with Bassey, there are some people giving him MOTM, just goes to show that we all see things in different ways.
I thought Bassey improved slightly in the second half(or at least more so than Andersen), but I can't see how someone would vote him as a MOTM. We conceded 5 goals and honestly could have conceded even more. They hit the woodwork in both halves and also they had a great chance with Gvardiol late on in the game. Some other half chances as well. Defence was largely terrible. I think all of the 5 defenders that played yesterday (4 starters + Castagne) had very poor games.
Quote from: BestOfBrede on December 02, 2025, 09:47:34 PMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Hmm Leno biggest culprit imo!
Yep, sadly, that's the story. Not gonna say he should have been better on all the goals against, but certainly should have been much better on at least two or three of them.
What a terrific comeback! Well done to the lads! A tough loss, not to get anything out of that game. When down by one, I really expected to see an equalizer at the least, but wasn't for lack of trying. Too bad King couldn't put just a bit more power in that outside of boot attempt at the death. Always don't like to see a loss, especially at CC, but this is one I can be somewhat pleased about, the lads never quit. Should be a big confidence boost, tough game coming up v Palace.
Some have mentioned we were too defensive in our starting setup. And there might be some truth to that. Sometimes I think we give way too much credit/respect to our opponents, even the top teams. I think a good lesson learned in this game, that we can compete with anyone and we shouldn't be afraid to be more aggressive.
I don't know how many more times we need to find out Lukic and Berge just don't compliment each other in the 6/8 roles.
Quote from: SanFranFulhamfan on December 02, 2025, 09:41:25 PMQuote from: Deeping_white on December 02, 2025, 09:36:38 PMOn the plus side we stopped our goal difference taking a proper hammering. Absolutely baffling why we started the game with the XI and tactics we did, Coty are so porous this season and we basically sat there and let them dictate the game. Lo and behold as soon as we get at them they folded like they did the weekend against Leeds, who'd have thought it...
You can't take the end result and say we started with the tactics wrong. It's not that easy. If we went more attacking early, Man City would have picked us apart. They were top notch in the 1H. We really opened up when Man City when defensive.
First half tactics may have worked if Lukic had played to his usual standard but he had what was probably his worst game in a Fulham shirt. Bassey at fault first goal, left Sess with 2 to mark and Leno the third, a woeful punch on what was an easy catch. Pat Jennings would have caught it one-handed.
Quote from: Count Flapula on December 03, 2025, 08:51:44 AMAlso credit to ESR - earned his start and was the only danger in the first half. Now our joint top league goal scorer with OG!
He's not the creative ball carrier I thought he'd be but he's good at arriving in the box and gets on the end of things. Can beat a player in certain situations but much more often tends to try and beat players with movements and quick 1-2 passing with team mates. Not what I thought he'd be but definitely a good player when his confidence is up. I think his mentality is the key as to whether he kicks on or not but there is definitely a capable and clever player in there.
Think this has gone under the radar a bit and need acknowledging more. For the minutes he's had this season, he's done very well and arguably deserves more airtime. He's got three goals this season, and has played key roles in others in the build up to them. I think fans are too harsh on him, expecting him to be a specific player they have in their minds, when he's actually been one of our most effective attacking players and not being played, despite our goal drought.
Quote from: iansthailand on December 03, 2025, 04:11:58 PMQuote from: SanFranFulhamfan on December 02, 2025, 09:41:25 PMQuote from: Deeping_white on December 02, 2025, 09:36:38 PMOn the plus side we stopped our goal difference taking a proper hammering. Absolutely baffling why we started the game with the XI and tactics we did, Coty are so porous this season and we basically sat there and let them dictate the game. Lo and behold as soon as we get at them they folded like they did the weekend against Leeds, who'd have thought it...
You can't take the end result and say we started with the tactics wrong. It's not that easy. If we went more attacking early, Man City would have picked us apart. They were top notch in the 1H. We really opened up when Man City when defensive.
First half tactics may have worked if Lukic had played to his usual standard but he had what was probably his worst game in a Fulham shirt. Bassey at fault first goal, left Sess with 2 to mark and Leno the third, a woeful punch on what was an easy catch. Pat Jennings would have caught it one-handed.
Can't understand the Leno comments, yes his punch out went straight to Foden but then again Dunnarumma did exactly the same punching the ball straight to Chuk.
Having (only) been able to watch the highlights, dreadfully poor defending conceding 5 goals. How many of those could & should have been prevented? Plus Harland hit the post twice!
A marvellous & spirited fightback (where oh where did that come from? Who orchestrated it?) To get within a sniff of a 5 -5 draw, so frustrating.
Based on their performance, Man City clearly aren't impossible to beat. PEP looked mighty relieved @ the end. Huge disappointment for us. We deserved a point & had the game gone on much longer...
So now (as always) it's about the response when we play Palace. Tidy our lines, defend sensibly, play together, release the hounds to attack Palace & score freely as we did against City.
But then again, it's Fulham....
So COYW!!
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on December 03, 2025, 02:34:06 PMQuote from: alfie on December 03, 2025, 02:22:39 PMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 02, 2025, 09:36:47 PMQuote from: ArcticOctopus on December 02, 2025, 09:34:59 PMWas only able to watch intermittently. Was there a primary culprit for our leaky defense?
Andersen imo. But to be fair to him, once we scored the 4th he looked good.
Bassey was almost as terrible. Sess less so but still poor. Tete was poor for the first. Castagne looked poor in the second half.
That's interesting with Bassey, there are some people giving him MOTM, just goes to show that we all see things in different ways.
In my opinion a defender who has conceded 5 goals in a game can't be MOTM.
Can a striker that doesn't score come into that category
Quote from: sarnian on December 03, 2025, 04:24:17 PMCan't understand the Leno comments, yes his punch out went straight to Foden but then again Dunnarumma did exactly the same punching the ball straight to Chuk.
For which Donnarumma was rightly criticised by many.
I think both GKs were guilty of weak punches for those respective goals
Why do we have culprits?
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 03, 2025, 12:27:56 PMI know Chukwueze grabbed all the headlines and he was really impressive and deserves all the praise he's getting, but I would still vote for ESR as MOTM. When everyone was bellow par, he was having an incredible performance. Without him, I don't think anything that happened lated would be possible. His goal late in the first half was also incredibly important and gave us a glimmer of hope in what was a pretty depressing half.
He is someone who is scapegoated every single week pretty much and that's probably something that takes a toll on him too, but he showed incredible character today, especially when a lot of players were struggling, he drove us forward and was creating problems for them throughout his time on the pitch.
Hats off to Emile, and hopefully this performance will silence some of his critics.
Absolutely ! ::thumb::
ESR made so many little runs behind City's defence in the second half but was never played through.
When he did get the ball he made things happen and was involved here there and everywhere.
So well played ESR ! ::scarf::
Quote from: Peabody on December 03, 2025, 09:57:22 PMWhy do we have culprits?
Exactly Peabody why does everybody seem to think that football is a game that is played perfectly all the time. Mistakes happen, I wonder if all these posters are all perfect and never make mistakes in their own respective professions
"There were no culprits it was just one of those days" is a perfectly fine answer. Like I said I wasn't able to catch the full game. We generally don't allow 5 goals, regardless of if they are top or bottom of the table. So it seemed reasonable to me that *somebody* was having an off day.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 03, 2025, 04:05:13 PMI don't know how many more times we need to find out Lukic and Berge just don't compliment each other in the 6/8 roles.
I don't expect them to pass compliments but pass the ball!
Some mention was made a day or so ago, by Windy City and others, of our seeming reluctance to have a shot at goal.
Interesting to see yesterday's results of some rather more speculative shooting efforts by several players.
Quote from: Peabody on December 03, 2025, 09:57:22 PMWhy do we have culprits?
Because its easy for people to throw rocks, especially if they are watching on TV and so can't necessarily see the whole pattern of play and movement of players off the ball.
Quote from: Grassy Noel on December 03, 2025, 11:09:38 PMQuote from: FFC1987 on December 03, 2025, 04:05:13 PMI don't know how many more times we need to find out Lukic and Berge just don't compliment each other in the 6/8 roles.
I don't expect them to pass compliments but pass the ball!
Can't play together unless it's Spurs away????
Quote from: Southcoastffc on December 04, 2025, 07:42:35 AMQuote from: Grassy Noel on December 03, 2025, 11:09:38 PMQuote from: FFC1987 on December 03, 2025, 04:05:13 PMI don't know how many more times we need to find out Lukic and Berge just don't compliment each other in the 6/8 roles.
I don't expect them to pass compliments but pass the ball!
Can't play together unless it's Spurs away????
As in, the one we won 2.1 recently? Iwobi and Berge started that unless I'm completely misreading this post?
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 09:48:33 AMAs in, the one we won 2.1 recently? Iwobi and Berge started that unless I'm completely misreading this post?
Lukic and ESR came on when we struggled in the second half and stabilised us completely. They also played well together against Newcastle for example. Newcastle fans were saying how we dominated their midfield. There were other examples too, like the Brentford game, or like most games last season. It definitely didn't work against Manchester City and Everton amd maybe some other games, but it's categorically untrue that it never worked well.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 04, 2025, 09:52:13 AMQuote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 09:48:33 AMAs in, the one we won 2.1 recently? Iwobi and Berge started that unless I'm completely misreading this post?
Lukic and ESR came on when we struggled in the second half and stabilised us completely. They also played well together against Newcastle for example. Newcastle fans were saying how we dominated their midfield. There were other examples too, like the Brentford game, or like most games last season. It definitely didn't work against Manchester City and Everton amd maybe some other games, but it's categorically untrue that it never worked well.
I disagree on the stabilisation point. They are 'good' if we just want to offer nothing in final third, but become hard to break down. If Spurs gift us a two goal lead with soft goals, then sure, we can make good use of the Lukic/Berge pivot....but anyone watching could see we offered nothing in terms of progressive football for the majority of that game after the goals. Saw a stat suggesting the xG after the goals was rounded to to close to 0.
Newcastle game is a good point again in that, Berge/Lukic would work because Newcastle have one of the best trio midfield but they didn't have their talismanic Tonali starting. So having the combative pivot, whilst not overly effective, and ultimately, giving us zero points. xG was ok at roughly 1.5 but looking at the stats, Newcastle still managed to create more than enough to justify the win. So not really sure if that's an indication that its effective or not really.
Brentford, hmm, hard one really as clearly a team in transition so perhaps it would of been a different story if we played them now. Look, I'm not saying both aren't ok in circumstances, but its about what you want from the team. If we're playing like Forest last year, being grim to break down, and hoping to create few, but clinical chances/goals, I fear we need better conversion wingers (which might come true with forms to Chuku and Kevin), but I really don't think we have that in Wilson and Iwobi, or with Jimenez up top (or Muniz for that matter, both are good, but not great finishers). So with that in mind, I disagree that Lukic and Berge are an effective duo 6/8 combination and neither seemingly are willing to change or adapt into that. We need more in key passes, goals and assists from one of those slots of we want to push into top 10 territory in my humble opinion.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 10:08:36 AMI disagree on the stabilisation point. They are 'good' if we just want to offer nothing in final third, but become hard to break down. If Spurs gift us a two goal lead with soft goals, then sure, we can make good use of the Lukic/Berge pivot....but anyone watching could see we offered nothing in terms of progressive football for the majority of that game after the goals. Saw a stat suggesting the xG after the goals was rounded to to close to 0.
Newcastle game is a good point again in that, Berge/Lukic would work because Newcastle have one of the best trio midfield but they didn't have their talismanic Tonali starting. So having the combative pivot, whilst not overly effective, and ultimately, giving us zero points. xG was ok at roughly 1.5 but looking at the stats, Newcastle still managed to create more than enough to justify the win. So not really sure if that's an indication that its effective or not really.
Brentford, hmm, hard one really as clearly a team in transition so perhaps it would of been a different story if we played them now. Look, I'm not saying both aren't ok in circumstances, but its about what you want from the team. If we're playing like Forest last year, being grim to break down, and hoping to create few, but clinical chances/goals, I fear we need better conversion wingers (which might come true with forms to Chuku and Kevin), but I really don't think we have that in Wilson and Iwobi, or with Jimenez up top (or Muniz for that matter, both are good, but not great finishers). So with that in mind, I disagree that Lukic and Berge are an effective duo 6/8 combination and neither seemingly are willing to change or adapt into that. We need more in key passes, goals and assists from one of those slots of we want to push into top 10 territory in my humble opinion.
We created 0.13 xG in the second half, all after Lukic and ESR came on. So in that second half, we created more xG with the Lukic-Berge pairing than without it.
As for Newcastle game, do you really think we lost that game because of our midfield? Again, even Newcastle fans were saying we dominated them in the middle. We controlled them in the middle, and midfield is the best part of Newcastle. Berge had a shot in that game too, while Lukic had a goal, so they both had meaningful contributions in attack too.
Brentford game, both were quite positive on the ball amd regularly joined the attack. And, again, they've had great games together last season too.
I agree about how it's opponent dependent and there are games in which I would play them together and games in which I wouldn't.
I also think we should sign an actual progressive 8 (and I've said this countless times already), because I don't think Iwobi is a long term solution.
I don't subscribe to this pounding of Lukic, yes he had a rough game, it happens, he is human and all humans have days when things just don't go to how you want them to.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 04, 2025, 10:18:53 AMQuote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 10:08:36 AMI disagree on the stabilisation point. They are 'good' if we just want to offer nothing in final third, but become hard to break down. If Spurs gift us a two goal lead with soft goals, then sure, we can make good use of the Lukic/Berge pivot....but anyone watching could see we offered nothing in terms of progressive football for the majority of that game after the goals. Saw a stat suggesting the xG after the goals was rounded to to close to 0.
Newcastle game is a good point again in that, Berge/Lukic would work because Newcastle have one of the best trio midfield but they didn't have their talismanic Tonali starting. So having the combative pivot, whilst not overly effective, and ultimately, giving us zero points. xG was ok at roughly 1.5 but looking at the stats, Newcastle still managed to create more than enough to justify the win. So not really sure if that's an indication that its effective or not really.
Brentford, hmm, hard one really as clearly a team in transition so perhaps it would of been a different story if we played them now. Look, I'm not saying both aren't ok in circumstances, but its about what you want from the team. If we're playing like Forest last year, being grim to break down, and hoping to create few, but clinical chances/goals, I fear we need better conversion wingers (which might come true with forms to Chuku and Kevin), but I really don't think we have that in Wilson and Iwobi, or with Jimenez up top (or Muniz for that matter, both are good, but not great finishers). So with that in mind, I disagree that Lukic and Berge are an effective duo 6/8 combination and neither seemingly are willing to change or adapt into that. We need more in key passes, goals and assists from one of those slots of we want to push into top 10 territory in my humble opinion.
We created 0.13 xG in the second half, all after Lukic and ESR came on. So in that second half, we created more xG with the Lukic-Berge pairing than without it.
As for Newcastle game, do you really think we lost that game because of our midfield? Again, even Newcastle fans were saying we dominated them in the middle. We controlled them in the middle, and midfield is the best part of Newcastle. Berge had a shot in that game too, while Lukic had a goal, so they both had meaningful contributions in attack too.
Brentford game, both were quite positive on the ball amd regularly joined the attack. And, again, they've had great games together last season too.
I agree about how it's opponent dependent and there are games in which I would play them together and games in which I wouldn't.
I also think we should sign an actual progressive 8 (and I've said this countless times already), because I don't think Iwobi is a long term solution.
I mean....we scored two goals in the first half and created 0.13 in second. Those two stats speak for themselves.
I don't think we 'lost' the game due to the midfield. But we did lose that game and we didn't really play that well or very expansive.
Again, Brentford game was encouraging, but its gone steeply downhill since those levels of encouragement. Plus, Brentford are a more settled side now so perhaps it would be different now. I can't say that for certain obviously but its worth factoring into the conversation.
I still think yes, the pivot is good as an option, but we have that availability if we consider Lukic, and Berge as the squad 6's anyway so we don't really disagree on much here other than perhaps how often and effective they are together. I still think the weird bit is, Lukic and Berge should of been at its most effective, against a team like City. See less of the ball, pressed and pinned back, but it had the opposite effect. Perhaps Pep did his homework and worked around it, maybe both or one of those two had a particularly bad game. Maybe a mixture of both but it didn't work. It also didn't work against Everton, a completely different side in all manner of ways so the signs are here.
I do hope Alfie's post isn't in response to me as I like Lukic, give him credit all the time, I just don't necessarily think he's a starter in either the 8, or the 6 role right now ahead of Berge. That doesn't mean I don't rate him, support him, or think that'll change. Its just my opinion on current form.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 11:10:43 AMQuote from: SerbianLad on December 04, 2025, 10:18:53 AMQuote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 10:08:36 AMI disagree on the stabilisation point. They are 'good' if we just want to offer nothing in final third, but become hard to break down. If Spurs gift us a two goal lead with soft goals, then sure, we can make good use of the Lukic/Berge pivot....but anyone watching could see we offered nothing in terms of progressive football for the majority of that game after the goals. Saw a stat suggesting the xG after the goals was rounded to to close to 0.
Newcastle game is a good point again in that, Berge/Lukic would work because Newcastle have one of the best trio midfield but they didn't have their talismanic Tonali starting. So having the combative pivot, whilst not overly effective, and ultimately, giving us zero points. xG was ok at roughly 1.5 but looking at the stats, Newcastle still managed to create more than enough to justify the win. So not really sure if that's an indication that its effective or not really.
Brentford, hmm, hard one really as clearly a team in transition so perhaps it would of been a different story if we played them now. Look, I'm not saying both aren't ok in circumstances, but its about what you want from the team. If we're playing like Forest last year, being grim to break down, and hoping to create few, but clinical chances/goals, I fear we need better conversion wingers (which might come true with forms to Chuku and Kevin), but I really don't think we have that in Wilson and Iwobi, or with Jimenez up top (or Muniz for that matter, both are good, but not great finishers). So with that in mind, I disagree that Lukic and Berge are an effective duo 6/8 combination and neither seemingly are willing to change or adapt into that. We need more in key passes, goals and assists from one of those slots of we want to push into top 10 territory in my humble opinion.
We created 0.13 xG in the second half, all after Lukic and ESR came on. So in that second half, we created more xG with the Lukic-Berge pairing than without it.
As for Newcastle game, do you really think we lost that game because of our midfield? Again, even Newcastle fans were saying we dominated them in the middle. We controlled them in the middle, and midfield is the best part of Newcastle. Berge had a shot in that game too, while Lukic had a goal, so they both had meaningful contributions in attack too.
Brentford game, both were quite positive on the ball amd regularly joined the attack. And, again, they've had great games together last season too.
I agree about how it's opponent dependent and there are games in which I would play them together and games in which I wouldn't.
I also think we should sign an actual progressive 8 (and I've said this countless times already), because I don't think Iwobi is a long term solution.
I mean....we scored two goals in the first half and created 0.13 in second. Those two stats speak for themselves.
I don't think we 'lost' the game due to the midfield. But we did lose that game and we didn't really play that well or very expansive.
Again, Brentford game was encouraging, but its gone steeply downhill since those levels of encouragement. Plus, Brentford are a more settled side now so perhaps it would be different now. I can't say that for certain obviously but its worth factoring into the conversation.
I still think yes, the pivot is good as an option, but we have that availability if we consider Lukic, and Berge as the squad 6's anyway so we don't really disagree on much here other than perhaps how often and effective they are together. I still think the weird bit is, Lukic and Berge should of been at its most effective, against a team like City. See less of the ball, pressed and pinned back, but it had the opposite effect. Perhaps Pep did his homework and worked around it, maybe both or one of those two had a particularly bad game. Maybe a mixture of both but it didn't work. It also didn't work against Everton, a completely different side in all manner of ways so the signs are here.
I do hope Alfie's post isn't in response to me as I like Lukic, give him credit all the time, I just don't necessarily think he's a starter in either the 8, or the 6 role right now ahead of Berge. That doesn't mean I don't rate him, support him, or think that'll change. Its just my opinion on current form.
No it's not directed at anyone, just my own thoughts on this particular game, it just wasn't his day.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 11:10:43 AMI mean....we scored two goals in the first half and created 0.13 in second. Those two stats speak for themselves.
I don't think we 'lost' the game due to the midfield. But we did lose that game and we didn't really play that well or very expansive.
Again, Brentford game was encouraging, but its gone steeply downhill since those levels of encouragement. Plus, Brentford are a more settled side now so perhaps it would be different now. I can't say that for certain obviously but its worth factoring into the conversation.
I still think yes, the pivot is good as an option, but we have that availability if we consider Lukic, and Berge as the squad 6's anyway so we don't really disagree on much here other than perhaps how often and effective they are together. I still think the weird bit is, Lukic and Berge should of been at its most effective, against a team like City. See less of the ball, pressed and pinned back, but it had the opposite effect. Perhaps Pep did his homework and worked around it, maybe both or one of those two had a particularly bad game. Maybe a mixture of both but it didn't work. It also didn't work against Everton, a completely different side in all manner of ways so the signs are here.
I do hope Alfie's post isn't in response to me as I like Lukic, give him credit all the time, I just don't necessarily think he's a starter in either the 8, or the 6 role right now ahead of Berge. That doesn't mean I don't rate him, support him, or think that'll change. Its just my opinion on current form.
Obviously Iwobi is more progressive than either one of Lukic and Berge, but equally, you can't compare the first half to the second as we were on the top in the first half. We can't know if we would have been on the top with Berge and Lukic or not. In the second half, we created more with Berge-Lukic than we did with Berge-Iwobi(again, because Iwobi is more progressive than both Berge and Lukic, we probably wouldn't have created as much as we did in the first half if we started with Berge-Lukic), but I can't see how anyone could make an argument that we didn't improve significantly with Berge-Lukic in that match (compared to the start of second half). To me it showed that that partnership still has it's place in certain scenarios and that it can definitely still work.
Newcastle game I completely disagree with. We had a terrible start of the game,but we grew in to the game and completely dominated until the equaliser. After we equalised we dropped off(which actually coincided with Lukic leaving the pitch and us breaking up the Berge-Lukic partnership). The xG with Berge-Lukic on the pitch was 1.59-1.53, which is excellent for a game away to Newcastle, imo.
To further add to the Newcastle game point, xG in the Newcastle game with the Berge-Lukic partnership 1.59-1.53 in favour of Newcastle. xG without the Berge-Lukic partnership 0.55-0.00 in favour of Newcastle. I'm sorry but, frankly, I think it's quite ridiculous to say that the Berge-Lukic partnership didn't work against Newcastle. Particularly in the second half, where the xG with the two of them together was 0.65-1.20 in our favour. Games like Newcastle are exactly the type of games Berge-Lukic partnership should start in, even if we get a more progressive option for the 8 role.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 04, 2025, 11:43:26 AMTo further add to the Newcastle game point, xG in the Newcastle game with the Berge-Lukic partnership 1.59-1.53 in favour of Newcastle. xG without the Berge-Lukic partnership 0.55-0.00 in favour of Newcastle. I'm sorry but, frankly, I think it's quite ridiculous to say that the Berge-Lukic partnership didn't work against Newcastle. Particularly in the second half, where the xG with the two of them together was 0.65-1.20 in our favour. Games like Newcastle are exactly the type of games Berge-Lukic partnership should start in, even if we get a more progressive option for the 8 role.
Newcastles was 2.05 so not sure what you're looking up. I appreciate you're on one this morning Serb, but my justification for suggesting the Lukic/Berge setup wasn't overly effective was conclusive in that, we lost the game against a Newcastle side missing Tonali. Looking past xG, we had worse stats in almost every category offensively with less successful tackles as a % so even some of our defensive stats were skewed. So you might find this analysis ridiculous, and you're welcome to it. I equally, after the last few games also find it ridiculous and boring that it's even a discussion.
So much so that we both agree we desperately need an 8. Making the entire conversation mute anyway. Talk about losing sight whilst fighting in the trenches here.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 12:00:50 PMNewcastles was 2.05 so not sure what you're looking up. I appreciate you're on one this morning Serb, but my justification for suggesting the Lukic/Berge setup wasn't overly effective was conclusive in that, we lost the game against a Newcastle side missing Tonali. Looking past xG, we had worse stats in almost every category offensively with less successful tackles as a % so even some of our defensive stats were skewed. So you might find this analysis ridiculous, and you're welcome to it. I equally, after the last few games also find it ridiculous and boring that it's even a discussion.
So much so that we both agree we desperately need an 8. Making the entire conversation mute anyway. Talk about losing sight whilst fighting in the trenches here.
No it wasn't. It was 2.14 in the whole game, but Lukic came off in the 85th minute and we condeded 0.55 xG during that time, while creating 0.00 xG. You could also look at the exact same fixture last season, we won 1-2 with the Berge-Lukic partnership and a 0.75-1.56 xG in our favour. That partnership quite simply works well against Newcastle because they can match Newcastle's physicality.
And again, lots of those offensive stats from Newcastle literally came in the shirt period without the Berge-Lukic partnership. E.g. Number of shots before the Lukic substitution 13-12 in favour of Newcastle. 5-0 after Lukic was subbed off.
Quote from: SerbianLad on December 04, 2025, 12:10:30 PMQuote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 12:00:50 PMNewcastles was 2.05 so not sure what you're looking up. I appreciate you're on one this morning Serb, but my justification for suggesting the Lukic/Berge setup wasn't overly effective was conclusive in that, we lost the game against a Newcastle side missing Tonali. Looking past xG, we had worse stats in almost every category offensively with less successful tackles as a % so even some of our defensive stats were skewed. So you might find this analysis ridiculous, and you're welcome to it. I equally, after the last few games also find it ridiculous and boring that it's even a discussion.
So much so that we both agree we desperately need an 8. Making the entire conversation mute anyway. Talk about losing sight whilst fighting in the trenches here.
No it wasn't. It was 2.14 in the whole game, but Lukic came off in the 85th minute and we condeded 0.55 xG during that time, while creating 0.00 xG. You could also look at the exact same fixture last season, we won 1-2 with the Berge-Lukic partnership and a 0.75-1.56 xG in our favour. That partnership quite simply works well against Newcastle because they can match Newcastle's physicality.
And again, lots of those offensive stats from Newcastle literally came in the shirt period without the Berge-Lukic partnership. E.g. Number of shots before the Lukic substitution 13-12 in favour of Newcastle. 5-0 after Lukic was subbed off.
If helpful, I'm using the BBC reports which are quite reliable so not sure what reference you're using.
Not that it can ever happen, but I'd wager with a new 8, or Iwobi, or King, in the 8 with Berge, or Lukic in the 6, for an entire season, you'd get more points out of those combinations, than you would out of Berge/Lukic. Do you disagree?
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 12:15:04 PMIf helpful, I'm using the BBC reports which are quite reliable so not sure what reference you're using.
Not that it can ever happen, but I'd wager with a new 8, or Iwobi, or King, in the 8 with Berge, or Lukic in the 6, for an entire season, you'd get more points out of those combinations, than you would out of Berge/Lukic. Do you disagree?
I looked at fotmob, sofascore and the official PL app. They all say 2.14. But again, we conceded 5 shots, or 0.55 xG in the few minutes without Lukic on the pitch. So the stats that I put out are absolutely true.
As for the second point, I agree if it's a new number 8 (although, as I said, I'd still prefer Lukic and Berge together in certain games rather than Lukic or Berge).
Iwobi, I'm not convinced yet. The sample size isn't big enough. The only game where I thought it really worked well was the Sunderland game. Wolves game I didn't think it really worked despite the final result. Spurs game, it worked in the first half, looked terrible in the second. Man City game, we created a lot, but that was partially due to Chukwuese having a stormer (although Iwobi in the middle did help too), but on the other hand, the goal we conceded was partially because of Iwobi in the middle. Neither him nor Berge tracked back well enough for their 4th goal. Haven't seen the game back, but from memory they ran through our midfield a few more times (maybe the Gvardiol chance, not sure). Of course he was paired with Berge in all those games, but I don't think pairing him with Lukic will solve the issues Iwobi has in the middle (Lukic is more dynamic but less physically dominant, so we'd probably have similar problems).
King, definitely not. Nowhere near ready for the 8 role physically. I think that will be his best position in the future, but right now, I'd be worried if we started him there.
In short, new 8 definitely, Iwobi maybe and King definitely not, with the slight caveat that I'd still play them together in certain games even of we get a new 8 or if Iwobi proves that he can definitely play there well.
Of course, unless we get an 8 that turns out to be cr*p :slap:
Fair response. Some I agree with, some I don't.
I think of the analysis needs to also focus on, if we don't play Iwobi, in the 8, he goes out wide.....and I don't really like him there despite him having good stats there....But I want him in the side, hence why I prefer him in the 8 with King/ESR in front, with a mixture of Kevin/Chuku/Wilson out wide.
We acknowledge we agree, there's an element of usefulness to the Berge/Lukic pivot, but also the need for a new 8.
Quote from: FFC1987 on December 04, 2025, 12:44:00 PMFair response. Some I agree with, some I don't.
I think of the analysis needs to also focus on, if we don't play Iwobi, in the 8, he goes out wide.....and I don't really like him there despite him having good stats there....But I want him in the side, hence why I prefer him in the 8 with King/ESR in front, with a mixture of Kevin/Chuku/Wilson out wide.
We acknowledge we agree, there's an element of usefulness to the Berge/Lukic pivot, but also the need for a new 8.
We really should have got an 8 in the summer. It's shocking we didn't, especially as we let AP go. AP didn't always shine in that role, but even he had some good performances there and even that would have been better than having as few options as we have now.
Quote from: cmg on December 04, 2025, 12:35:26 AMSome mention was made a day or so ago, by Windy City and others, of our seeming reluctance to have a shot at goal. Interesting to see yesterday's results of some rather more speculative shooting efforts by several players.
Very welcome to see, and hope we see more of same throughout rest of campaign. All it took was a late sub, a youngster, to show the club how to score goals. Take the shot!
You can't score unless you shoot! Well done Chukwueze!! (And Iwobi too, haha)