Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Yep, but Swarcz to start next season.
and not finish it
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on May 09, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Yep, but Swarcz to start next season.
and not finish it
Quote from: Sheepskin Junior on May 09, 2011, 09:47:59 PM
and not finish itQuote from: FatFreddysCat on May 09, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Yep, but Swarcz to start next season.
and not finish it
I feel that we've gotta introduce stockdale...hes quality!
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:51:20 PM
Quote from: Sheepskin Junior on May 09, 2011, 09:47:59 PM
and not finish itQuote from: FatFreddysCat on May 09, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Yep, but Swarcz to start next season.
and not finish it
I feel that we've gotta introduce stockdale...hes quality!
I agree! Mark is getting long in the tooth and it is starting to show.
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:51:20 PM
Quote from: Sheepskin Junior on May 09, 2011, 09:47:59 PM
and not finish itQuote from: FatFreddysCat on May 09, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Yep, but Swarcz to start next season.
and not finish it
I feel that we've gotta introduce stockdale...hes quality!
He's good but needs to watch his eating habits.
Schwarz isnt as mobile as he used to be. All players can have bad days like that. Just how you recover.
I was hoping we'd let Stockdale close it out once we were safe. Clearly, today's performance was an aberration for Mark, but hopefully it puts the idea of resting him for the final two into Hughes's mind.
I noted earlier in the season how bad Schwarz distribution is. He clears the ball but rarely finds a Fulham player so the pressure just comes back at you. MH should play Stockdale for the final two games and then have a long think over close season
When a keeper makes a mistake, it's usually costly, when a forward misses a chance, it's never as bad, mark has been superb for us and is still one of the best keepers about, bit harsh to get onhis back just cause of one game, shame on you
Sorry? When I said Swart was nowhere near the Keeper he has been and should be rested. The effing abuse I received. Swart has been cruising for the season. Should never have come back after injury and made to feel he was the number one. When Stockdale was in such fine form.
On saying all that. If you liked him and supported him before tonight, then one game shouldn't change anything.
I think Schwarzer is still the better keeper. Had a very good safe at about ~85mins.
Not too sure about Stockdale. Had a horrific match v Wigan and some very good outings. But he's overweight. He needs to change his nutrition to press for #1. I think Schwarzer will be our #1 next season.
Mar-rk Schwarzer Mar-rk Schwarzer, are you T Warner in disguise? Are you T Warner in disguise?
Is this a football forum?
Get real. He's one of the best keepers in the world. If your boss sacked you after a bad day at the office, that was compounded by a horrid day at the office by your mexican and northern irish co-workers, you'd probably sue.
It's not one bad game though is it?
This season:
* Poor distribution
* Poor command of his area
* Poor collecting aerial balls
* Too slow to close down one on ones
* Seems to try save with his feet a lot
Lets be fair, he's not exactly young anymore so it's understandable he isn't what he is. But it's time for a change. Since he came back from the Asia Cup, he knows he doesn't have to play well to get in the side.
For me it IS just one bad game but it truly was a shocker.
Arguably, unless he's to be written off, he MUST play the next game.
he's never been adept aerially, where Hangers and Hughes usually mask this. Every keeper is going to have a nightmare of this stature once a season and his seemed to come last night, better that than when we were right in the thick of things. Would like to see Stockers in the Arsenal game but Schwarzer will carry on as number 1. Although how great would it be to have the Europa League next season to really give Stockers some exposure
What hysteria, this was one game, it did not reflect what has been a fairly good season, get a grip of yourselves. Last night none of our defenders covered themselves in glory, it is a long time since I have seen Brede play so badly, ot Aaron come to that. It is quite simple, Liverpool were the better team. Instead all this clamour of putting the blame on MS (who did have a bad game) and saying oh his too old, is the same true of Edwin? but he has had at least one bad game this season.
To write off Mark after one game is short sighted and unfair. I don't like the tendency for some people to jump to drastic conclusions after one failure. He will, and should, not get dropped.
Schwarzer should go, along with Dembele, Dempsey, Hangeland, Hughes, Sally, Baird, Murphy, Sidwell, Davies, Eidhur and Mark Hughes.
Next season we will field a team with the revolutionary 1-1-1 formation, otherwise known as the 'untouchables'
Stockdale
Gera
Zamora
G-E-R-A
Bring back Harry Bayles!
The Hammersmith End was braying for a reappearance from him last night!
The highlights are on the Offal and are worth watching again. However badly our defence played and were pulled all over the place, all five goals were stoppable by the keeper bar the last one. Even then Swart made a half hearted effort. Some of the goals were just his mistakes. So while I am all for not destroying any player over one game. Swarts total lack of mobility has been a problem for some time. It really is time people saw that.
Quote from: Lighthouse on May 10, 2011, 11:45:36 AM
The highlights are on the Offal and are worth watching again. However badly our defence played and were pulled all over the place, all five goals were stoppable by the keeper bar the last one. Even then Swart made a half hearted effort. Some of the goals were just his mistakes. So while I am all for not destroying any player over one game. Swarts total lack of mobility has been a problem for some time. It really is time people saw that.
Last night apart I really haven't seen that but if true you would expect our goalkeeping coach to have noticed.
It's a big decision whether to replace Schwarzer with Stockdale who gets better in many peoples' eyes the more he doesn't play. What is true is that he hasn't let us down but we simply don't know how good he is.
Quote from: Lighthouse on May 10, 2011, 11:45:36 AM
The highlights are on the Offal and are worth watching again. However badly our defence played and were pulled all over the place, all five goals were stoppable by the keeper bar the last one. Even then Swart made a half hearted effort. Some of the goals were just his mistakes. So while I am all for not destroying any player over one game. Swarts total lack of mobility has been a problem for some time. It really is time people saw that.
Wow. Just watched them.
He had an absolute howler. Their first three goals were completely preventable. The lack of defence did not really help either.
He should never have come straight back in after the Asia cup, stockdale was on form, his kicking always finds a Fulham player, what happened to play for the shirt?
Quote from: AlFayedsChequebook on May 10, 2011, 12:02:50 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on May 10, 2011, 11:45:36 AM
The highlights are on the Offal and are worth watching again. However badly our defence played and were pulled all over the place, all five goals were stoppable by the keeper bar the last one. Even then Swart made a half hearted effort. Some of the goals were just his mistakes. So while I am all for not destroying any player over one game. Swarts total lack of mobility has been a problem for some time. It really is time people saw that.
Wow. Just watched them.
He had an absolute howler. Their first three goals were completely preventable. The lack of defence did not really help either.
I really agree with you. Stockers has had a few good games, but he IS largely untested.
He played a blinder against Liverpool and was only beaten by pantsil!
Quote from: Lighthouse on May 10, 2011, 11:45:36 AM
The highlights are on the Offal and are worth watching again. However badly our defence played and were pulled all over the place, all five goals were stoppable by the keeper bar the last one. Even then Swart made a half hearted effort. Some of the goals were just his mistakes. So while I am all for not destroying any player over one game. Swarts total lack of mobility has been a problem for some time. It really is time people saw that.
Wrong. The first goal was Chris Bairds problem. Granted MS could have jumped at it with his hands outstretched but the man of incredible experience adjudicated that the feet was the best option and went with it. Aaron Hughes then gets in his way for the rebound.
On the second goal, Chris Baird didn't mark the player, nor the ball. I dont know if he lost his head in the floodlights, but even after he let it fall perfectly to his man, he then got in the way of, not the ball or Maxi, no, but schwarzers line of vision.
The third goal SHOULD have been stopped by Schwarzer. However watch Salcido get caught in no mans land between the player with the ball, and the man he SHOULD be marking, Kuyt.
The Maxi thunderbolt was similar to the Simon Davies goal against WBA at home this year. It moved in the air, and that is what happens when you hit a ball on the air-hole. Its slightly heavier than the rest of the ball, and if you hit it there, you can actually make the ball move without spin (Roberto Carlos used to do it from dead balls). In the WBA game we hailed Simon for his amazing power in the shot, nothing the keeper could do about it, we said. In this game, its Schwarzers fault. How about the player who got burnt by Rodriguez? I think it was Sidwell, he let him hop and skip past him for a shot.
The last goal was from the most talented man to wear a Liverpool shirt and it would have beaten any keeper.
Now, I ask you this. When a goalkeeper is under so much fire, and his defence isnt adequately DEFENDING the goal, do you expect him to do all the work for you? Mark already has done that for us, only 12 months ago against Hamburg and Wolfsburg, pretty much patching up our solid defence.
Apart from the 3rd goal, any keeper could have let those other ones in. I dont think Stockdale has the mobility to smother the 1st, I dont think he has the confidence to claim the second.
If our second keeper was some Ghanain wonderkid, you would all be about letting him progress naturally. It is because Stockdale is English and you are all determined to have him be our great white hope, something to be proud of.
The five goals last night were not MS' fault. It was, simply, poor selection. Salcido is a GREAT left back, when we play sides who arent a threat down the wing (Suarez, Kuyt etc) It means he can go forward and let Brede drift outward, Sidwell drops into the hole in the middle between the two CBs who have pushed toward the sideline to allow Salcido to get forward. Last night, he needed to be a DEFENSIVE left back, and as we saw against Man City, he just cant do that.
Chris Baird is also, as we seem to find out repeatedly, NOT a Right Back.
With John Pantsil playing well, and probably PK back in the side at LB, we dont concede as many.
Also with Zamora on the field from the start we would assert more dominance rather than looking like lame ducks.
Sorry to say, mr Mark Hughes is to blame. But ill let him experiment at this stage of the season with team selection. Why shouldnt he?
The worst type of people blame the keeper for the goals conceded. The fact is, the other side had to beat 10 other players to get to him.
Howler for goal three, left stranded for 1,2,4 and 5.
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 05:38:09 AM
Is this a football forum?
Get real. He's one of the best keepers in the world. If your boss sacked you after a bad day at the office, that was compounded by a horrid day at the office by your mexican and northern irish co-workers, you'd probably sue.
michael, even you must admit that Mark's skills have eroded since last season. Given that admission, the reality is that those skills aren't going to be enhanced with age. The torch has passed. Exit Tha Big Aussie, Enter Young Mr. Stockdale [pursued by a bear]
Quote from: HatterDon on May 10, 2011, 01:08:42 PM
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 05:38:09 AM
Is this a football forum?
Get real. He's one of the best keepers in the world. If your boss sacked you after a bad day at the office, that was compounded by a horrid day at the office by your mexican and northern irish co-workers, you'd probably sue.
michael, even you must admit that Mark's skills have eroded since last season. Given that admission, the reality is that those skills aren't going to be enhanced with age. The torch has passed. Exit Tha Big Aussie, Enter Young Mr. Stockdale [pursued by a bear]
I dont think his skills have eroded, I think we dont have the defence we had in recent seasons. Mark owns his box like no other, and continues to make many fine saves when our wide backs decide to turn up and play. Hangeland was a mile off the pace yesterday and has had a few shockers this year, no word on dropping him for Senderos or Halliche.
there's definitely something to this. Under Mourinho Petr Cech was almost unbeatable because every shot opponents took was heavily contested. Ben Foster had this at B'ham last year. This year our defenders are getting much more drawn out because our midfielders aren't automatically shielding, and so we're seeing better shots and harder work for Schwarzer to do.
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on May 10, 2011, 01:08:42 PM
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 05:38:09 AM
Is this a football forum?
Get real. He's one of the best keepers in the world. If your boss sacked you after a bad day at the office, that was compounded by a horrid day at the office by your mexican and northern irish co-workers, you'd probably sue.
michael, even you must admit that Mark's skills have eroded since last season. Given that admission, the reality is that those skills aren't going to be enhanced with age. The torch has passed. Exit Tha Big Aussie, Enter Young Mr. Stockdale [pursued by a bear]
I dont think his skills have eroded, I think we dont have the defence we had in recent seasons. Mark owns his box like no other, and continues to make many fine saves when our wide backs decide to turn up and play. Hangeland was a mile off the pace yesterday and has had a few shockers this year, no word on dropping him for Senderos or Halliche.
I think it is a combination of both.
Schwarzer has struggled at times, but the defence has been less good (but only to a certain extent, we still do not concede many).
Still, it can't be everyone's fault but Schwarzer.
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 01:15:10 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on May 10, 2011, 01:08:42 PM
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 05:38:09 AM
Is this a football forum?
Get real. He's one of the best keepers in the world. If your boss sacked you after a bad day at the office, that was compounded by a horrid day at the office by your mexican and northern irish co-workers, you'd probably sue.
michael, even you must admit that Mark's skills have eroded since last season. Given that admission, the reality is that those skills aren't going to be enhanced with age. The torch has passed. Exit Tha Big Aussie, Enter Young Mr. Stockdale [pursued by a bear]
I dont think his skills have eroded, I think we dont have the defence we had in recent seasons. Mark owns his box like no other, and continues to make many fine saves when our wide backs decide to turn up and play. Hangeland was a mile off the pace yesterday and has had a few shockers this year, no word on dropping him for Senderos or Halliche.
To be fair Mr Michael,
if Hughes sat Schwarz down for the last two games to give Stockdale a bit of a run out again there would be most likely little complaining. If Hughes sat Hangeland it would be the same as putting him in the shopping window and we would (quite rightfully) have a 10-page thread in less than a day.
Having said that, I would not be surprised if Hughes sold Hangers this summer to raise money. I would be totally devastated and shocked, but NOT surprised. Fulham is a selling club after all.
Michael that really is a load of nationalistic crap , great white hope, what colour is Mark! Stockdale was playing really well,he deserved to keep the shirt and should not have dropped to the bench after the Asia cup, his kicks go to Fulham players, something MS seems not able to do now and he is SLOW
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 02:02:48 PM
Michael that really is a load of nationalistic crap , great white hope, what colour is Mark! Stockdale was playing really well,he deserved to keep the shirt and should not have dropped to the bench after the Asia cup, his kicks go to Fulham players, something MS seems not able to do now and he is SLOW
Great white hope is a saying, my friend. You have the affinity for Stockdale that I have for Mark because Stockdale is English.
It is of my belief and understanding that we would concede just as many, if not more, goals with Stockdale between the sticks. We're not the same defensive side as we were before, and as we were at the beginning of the year when we were still pretty much Roys side. Don't get me wrong, I foresee big things for Stockdale and I think he will be an absolutely brilliant keeper and I hope he wins many caps for England and saves many shots for Fulham.
i just fail to see how putting a different person between the sticks would have changed yesterdays result/amount of goals conceded, and I dont believe any of you are correct in saying the reason we conceded five was because of Schwarzer. The reason we conceded five is because our wing backs are crap, Hangeland was poor and our midfield was dominated. Probably having no Bobby allowed them to be a bit more careless and push up on us too.
FULHAM got beaten yesterday, not Mark Schwarzer. A debate on whether he should step down or not, and if he does I will be happy enough to see Stockdale come in, should not come as a result of people jumping up and down and blaming him on yesterdays performance. If you base your decisions on that, then Baird should be gone, Salcido should be back in Mexico, Murph should be on the bench etc etc. WE played bad yesterday, don't use scapegoats, we're better than that.
That mate is bow locks, I support the best keeper for Fulham my team, and his nationality does not come into it, Keller American, Niemi, Finnish, all irrelevant,they were the best we had at the time, Schwarz deserves to be dropped and Stockdale in, he was guilty of poor keeping , poor kicking and yes one good save.Once the defence senses that he is having a mare their confidence falls.
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:39:15 PM
That mate is bow locks, I support the best keeper for Fulham my team, and his nationality does not come into it, Keller American, Niemi, Finnish, all irrelevant,they were the best we had at the time, Schwarz deserves to be dropped and Stockdale in, he was guilty of poor keeping , poor kicking and yes one good save.Once the defence senses that he is having a mare their confidence falls.
Each to their own, I personally think he was left stranded by a substandard 10 men in front of him.
Schwartzer is being challenged more directly and under more nervy circumstances, ala yesterday, because the defense is not as compact as it was. I agree with Rich, AFC and others.
I hate to sound like a broken record but this lovely attacking football and the high defensive line was the reason for our loss yesterday, that and Liverpool were up for the match. Against a less athletic and skillful opponent (70% of the league) it is very effective but we won't take points from top 4 sides like we did under Hodgson unless Hughes adjusts and in the wake of not adjusting he leaves us open to Schwartzer looking very ordinary. The first three goals were under very nervy circumstances, the third one was on Mark though but at that point the whole team was nervous and panicking.
Schwartzer should not be taken out because of his game performance but if MH plans to use Stockdale next year this would be a good time to test him further.
Quote from: michaelread on May 10, 2011, 03:40:48 PM
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:39:15 PM
That mate is bow locks, I support the best keeper for Fulham my team, and his nationality does not come into it, Keller American, Niemi, Finnish, all irrelevant,they were the best we had at the time, Schwarz deserves to be dropped and Stockdale in, he was guilty of poor keeping , poor kicking and yes one good save.Once the defence senses that he is having a mare their confidence falls.
Each to their own, I personally think he was left stranded by a substandard 10 men in front of him.
What the one through the legs or the one he let between him and the post? face it mate he was poor, his kicking has been getting worse as well, at one time every ball to Bobby's head, now we are lucky if it goes to a white shirt.
Before we go down the line of saying Stockdale is untried and Swart a better keeper. I will point out simply that the goals last night could have been saved by an in form Swart. Now that isn't saying the moves that led to the shots shouldn't have been stopped long before. But Swart was slow to react and flappy.
Now the real discussion is how far has Swart been protected by our very good defence up until now? Stockdale may not be the answer. Yes he gets better the less we play him but let us remember the Swart of two seasons ago compared to now. Is he as good or that much worse.
One game doesn't change anything except to reinforce our weakness. Not the worst culprit maybe but 4 out of the five goals were iffy keeping. Who knows if we could have done any better with anybody else? But that doesn't mask the fact that the keeping was poor.
he was poor but if you play the game ten more times he wouldn't be poor ten more times. It was just one of those days. To draw conclusions on it is incorrect, surely, when we have several dozen games suggesting he's very, very good?
,Yes he gets better the less we play him can you explain that one Mr Beamer?
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:57:00 PM
,Yes he gets better the less we play him can you explain that one Mr Beamer?
I thought that was a classic bit of Lighthouse irony there Raver !
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:57:00 PM
,Yes he gets better the less we play him can you explain that one Mr Beamer?
I'm assuming he means that the less we play Stockdale the easier it is to hold a "grass is greener" mentality.
Look, simply, I disagree that Stockdale is the better option for keeper at this moment. I think Schwarzer has a few good years left, but Id rather see him have next year at Fulham and then move on to a backup/coaching role.
Oh, and the point about finding Bobbys head every time, Bobby got to those balls. You dont ping a ball from keeper to a standing player. Thats stupid. So stupid. You put it in a certain area and the players come to the ball, not the other way round. What you think he kicks it and the few seconds the ball is in the air everyone stands still hoping it will hit them on the feet? Really..
Quote from: RidgeRider on May 10, 2011, 03:42:29 PM
Schwartzer is being challenged more directly and under more nervy circumstances, ala yesterday, because the defense is not as compact as it was. I agree with Rich, AFC and others.
I hate to sound like a broken record but this lovely attacking football and the high defensive line was the reason for our loss yesterday, that and Liverpool were up for the match. Against a less athletic and skillful opponent (70% of the league) it is very effective but we won't take points from top 4 sides like we did under Hodgson unless Hughes adjusts and in the wake of not adjusting he leaves us open to Schwartzer looking very ordinary. The first three goals were under very nervy circumstances, the third one was on Mark though but at that point the whole team was nervous and panicking.
Schwartzer should not be taken out because of his game performance but if MH plans to use Stockdale next year this would be a good time to test him further.
This pretty much sums it up for me. The only reason Mark should be dropped is if Sparky wants to make him number 2 next year. He hasn't played poorly, we are tenth and have a positive for and against.
From reading the various posts, and everyone is making good points from both sides of the argument, I would just like to add a couple of points that addresses some of the comments.
Firstly, from what I have seen of the pair, Marks skill level is WAY above that of stockers, and so for Marks skill level to drop does not necessarily mean that Stckers' level is equal or above. Juts because a keeper has a howler doesn't mean that he is over the hill, past it, or anything else, it simple means he had a howler. Look at Edwin, Gomez, Almunia, all have had bad days at the office (Gomez more than most in the Prem), but they are top of the table clubs first choice keepers and remain so.
When we talk of stoppable and unstoppable shots (notwithstanding the one big howler last night), you could claim that just about every shot is stoppable by someone, given the right defence, the right positioning, etc. Lets get real, no keeper is THAT good on his own. The defence last night was worse than something you scrape off your shoe, it was terrible, and gave Mark almost no cover whatsoever in the first 45 minutes. Against a team like Wolves, Blackpool or Blackburn, we might have got away with it - just, but with players like Kuyt and Suarez, there is little room for maneuver, we were outclassed and outplayed, and even if we still had Edwin between the sticks I doubt we would have come away with less than a 4-2.
For those that believe Stockers would have kept the 5 goals out last night, I personally believe you are fooling yourselves, but that is purely a personal opinion relating to last night only - so I guess I pinned my colours up.
Quote from: Logicalman on May 10, 2011, 04:08:38 PM
From reading the various posts, and everyone is making good points from both sides of the argument, I would just like to add a couple of points that addresses some of the comments.
Firstly, from what I have seen of the pair, Marks skill level is WAY above that of stockers, and so for Marks skill level to drop does not necessarily mean that Stckers' level is equal or above. Juts because a keeper has a howler doesn't mean that he is over the hill, past it, or anything else, it simple means he had a howler. Look at Edwin, Gomez, Almunia, all have had bad days at the office (Gomez more than most in the Prem), but they are top of the table clubs first choice keepers and remain so.
When we talk of stoppable and unstoppable shots (notwithstanding the one big howler last night), you could claim that just about every shot is stoppable by someone, given the right defence, the right positioning, etc. Lets get real, no keeper is THAT good on his own. The defence last night was worse than something you scrape off your shoe, it was terrible, and gave Mark almost no cover whatsoever in the first 45 minutes. Against a team like Wolves, Blackpool or Blackburn, we might have got away with it - just, but with players like Kuyt and Suarez, there is little room for maneuver, we were outclassed and outplayed, and even if we still had Edwin between the sticks I doubt we would have come away with less than a 4-2.
For those that believe Stockers would have kept the 5 goals out last night, I personally believe you are fooling yourselves, but that is purely a personal opinion relating to last night only - so I guess I pinned my colours up.
Once again you live up to your posting moniker LM. Schwarzer (I am a big fan) had a shocker last night but as several others have suggested, so did several others in front of him. Hangeland had his worst game in ages and looked almost disinterested on a couple of occasions as he ambled back from a Fulham corner. Hughesie was erratic by his standards and Bairdinho was lucky to stay on after letting his frustration get the better of him. I'd still be tempted to give Stocky a run out but only to keep him keen as opposed to dropping The Schwarz for one very average performance.
I am one of those who question Marks kicking ability but last night, if you watched carefully, Pepe Reina's goal kicks were not that accurate either. Now are we suggesting that Reina is not that good a keeper either. My point is that it would be remarkable for a keeper to find one of their own players everytime with a long goal kick.
Within 20 feet would help, reina's best kick was after our first goal :011:, to sum up give Stockdalr a game, Hughes has the perfect chance now to rest schwarz , we don't want to lose Stockdale and let's face it, in his shoes would you not expect to be picked for the next game, pantsil had a poor game, dropped, Gera the same, why not schwartz?
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 04:25:36 PM
Within 20 feet would help, reina's best kick was after our first goal :011:, to sum up give Stockdalr a game, Hughes has the perfect chance now to rest schwarz , we don't want to lose Stockdale and let's face it, in his shoes would you not expect to be picked for the next game, pantsil had a poor game, dropped, Gera the same, why not schwartz?
If we dropped all the poor players from yesterday we wouldn't have a back 5! :011:
What do you mean, in saying bring back Tony Macedo, Mr Gilroy??? :005: :005: :005: :005: :005:
Simple fact is we had a really bad night at the opera last night, and we all have them. What we need to do now is forget it and look forward to tanking Birmingham, because you can be sure that every player out there will be giving 110% to put this defeat behind them.
Think people are being a little unfair for Schwarzer, wouldn't mind seeing Stockdale start last two games though.
Quote from: RidgeRider on May 10, 2011, 03:42:29 PM
Schwartzer is being challenged more directly and under more nervy circumstances, ala yesterday, because the defense is not as compact as it was. I agree with Rich, AFC and others.
I hate to sound like a broken record but this lovely attacking football and the high defensive line was the reason for our loss yesterday, that and Liverpool were up for the match. Against a less athletic and skillful opponent (70% of the league) it is very effective but we won't take points from top 4 sides like we did under Hodgson unless Hughes adjusts and in the wake of not adjusting he leaves us open to Schwartzer looking very ordinary. The first three goals were under very nervy circumstances, the third one was on Mark though but at that point the whole team was nervous and panicking.
Schwartzer should not be taken out because of his game performance but if MH plans to use Stockdale next year this would be a good time to test him further.
Yes, he was under pressure; yest it was an off day for everyone.
However, even in matches we are dominating, even after holding the ball unchallenged for 5 seconds, Schwarzer still manages to kick the ball to an opponent consistently. He wasn't doing this last season. Either he's purposely trying to blunt our attacks and damage our rhythm, or HIS DISTRIBUTION SKILLS HAVE ERODED.
Nationality Smashionality. I love Mark, but he's not been the keeper this season that he was the previous two, and who his back four is has little to do with his inability to deliver an unpressured kick to a player in White.
Quote from: Logicalman on May 10, 2011, 04:08:38 PM
From reading the various posts, and everyone is making good points from both sides of the argument, I would just like to add a couple of points that addresses some of the comments.
Firstly, from what I have seen of the pair, Marks skill level is WAY above that of stockers, and so for Marks skill level to drop does not necessarily mean that Stckers' level is equal or above. Juts because a keeper has a howler doesn't mean that he is over the hill, past it, or anything else, it simple means he had a howler. Look at Edwin, Gomez, Almunia, all have had bad days at the office (Gomez more than most in the Prem), but they are top of the table clubs first choice keepers and remain so.
When we talk of stoppable and unstoppable shots (notwithstanding the one big howler last night), you could claim that just about every shot is stoppable by someone, given the right defence, the right positioning, etc. Lets get real, no keeper is THAT good on his own. The defence last night was worse than something you scrape off your shoe, it was terrible, and gave Mark almost no cover whatsoever in the first 45 minutes. Against a team like Wolves, Blackpool or Blackburn, we might have got away with it - just, but with players like Kuyt and Suarez, there is little room for maneuver, we were outclassed and outplayed, and even if we still had Edwin between the sticks I doubt we would have come away with less than a 4-2.
For those that believe Stockers would have kept the 5 goals out last night, I personally believe you are fooling yourselves, but that is purely a personal opinion relating to last night only - so I guess I pinned my colours up.
I have watched Stockdale play for the reserves something you cannot do and he has developed into a very good keeper, Schwarz wanted away and quite honestly has not been the same since.Remember against the same team Stockdale was only beaten by Pantsil so it is not just lowly opposition he excells against, give schwarz a rest he needs it.
Quote from: epsomraver on May 11, 2011, 10:19:39 AM
I have watched Stockdale play for the reserves something you cannot do and he has developed into a very good keeper, Schwarz wanted away and quite honestly has not been the same since.Remember against the same team Stockdale was only beaten by Pantsil so it is not just lowly opposition he excells against, give schwarz a rest he needs it.
"Remember against the same team" - Really? er, Liverpool had 6 (six) changes in their starting line-up between the two games. Dagliesh had been in charge for 5 games and the poo were coming out of a disastrous first half of the season having 1 win in the 4 previous, compared to this week, when they were coming off 3 wins in 4 (and the 1 they didn't win was an away draw to Arsenal). Torres lead the attack the first time, Suarez this time (neither of these two played together for the poo).
If that's the 'same team' then you and I differ on what the word 'same' means.
The inference was that Stockdale was only good against " lowly opposition," the games he played including away to poo showed that was not the case, the line up was irrelevent
Quote from: epsomraver on May 11, 2011, 12:14:39 PM
The inference was that Stockdale was only good against " lowly opposition," the games he played including away to poo showed that was not the case, the line up was irrelevent
"the line up was irrelevent"? You mentioned Liverpool by name, the game itself and how well Stockers did between the sticks against "the same team". Now the line up is irrelevant?
There was no inference that Stockers was only good against " lowly opposition " in fact I never used that term or even inferred it in the quoted reply you gave.
If you're going to give a comparison between two games as an example, at least make sure the two games are actually comparable - and patronising somebody because you can get to the reserve games is not even in the park.
Stockers is a good keeper, nobody will deny that, but the attack on Mark that this thread started due to his poor showing in this weeks game and demanding he be replaced by Stockers - because apparently he is better - falls somewhere short of validity imo. Stockers is not fully tested against top class opposition, whereas Mark has been. Perhaps a run in the team for Stockers will to both good, but to demand he be replaced outright seems a little too knee-jerk to a game that nobody in a white shirt would wish to admit playing in.
watch the europa video , you will see even in those games Schwarz was to blame for some goals, but there you go I think Stockdale should have a start and Hughes has the reason to change things,they say play for the shirt, Stockdale plays really well yet soon as schwarz comes off the plane from the Asia cup he is straight back in, that was where it went wrong and schwarz has not been the same since.
For me the argument of starting Stockdale over Schwarz the last two games is more of "give Stockdale a chance so he can see there is a future for him at Fulham". He didn't do much wrong when the Big Aussie was out, and even though I still think the Aussie is the better keeper right now, but I hate to lose Stockdale for the future. He is already getting a bit grumpy.
I say we give him the last two run outs in the Prem, start talking contract extension, but perhaps start Schwarz next season and make a complete switch come Christmas time. If we make Europe, there should be plenty of starts around for both of them anyways
Quote from: finnster01 on May 11, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
For me the argument of starting Stockdale over Schwarz the last two games is more of "give Stockdale a chance so he can see there is a future for him at Fulham". He didn't do much wrong when the Big Aussie was out, and even though I still think the Aussie is the better keeper right now, but I hate to lose Stockdale for the future. He is already getting a bit grumpy.
I say we give him the last two run outs in the Prem, start talking contract extension, but perhaps start Schwarz next season and make a complete switch come Christmas time. If we make Europe, there should be plenty of starts around for both of them anyways
I agree.
I've recently met a gentleman named Adam Arthur, who played for York City some years ago before a change in management sent him packing for the U.S., college scholarship, and the USL (like our League 1/2, I think). Anyway, he played with Stockdale at the youth level, and still keeps in contact with him, describing him as 'a good friend'. Hearing from Adam how both he and Stockdale were let go from clubs early on (as an adolescent, mind you) having been told, essentially, that they were rubbish and had no future in football, impressed on me, as a fan, how flippantly I tend to think of players' careers, as well as the drive, passion, and self-belief someone would have to possess to press on in the face of repeatedly being told you couldn't make it, especially at that age.
Maybe that's the story of every footballer, I don't really know, but hearing the personal side of it makes it difficult for me not to root for giving Stockdale a start or two, even if it's just to keep his confidence up. It appeared to me he handled himself really well during Schwarz' absence, and he must wonder what he's got to do to get a run out.
My $.02
Quote from: finnster01 on May 11, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
For me the argument of starting Stockdale over Schwarz the last two games is more of "give Stockdale a chance so he can see there is a future for him at Fulham". He didn't do much wrong when the Big Aussie was out, and even though I still think the Aussie is the better keeper right now, but I hate to lose Stockdale for the future. He is already getting a bit grumpy.
I say we give him the last two run outs in the Prem, start talking contract extension, but perhaps start Schwarz next season and make a complete switch come Christmas time. If we make Europe, there should be plenty of starts around for both of them anyways
cannot argue with that.
Stockdale needs to be patient - which in fairness to him he has been so far.
If he leaves us to get regular first team football then it will be for a Championship side or at best a newly promoted team.
If he leaves us for a "bigger" club he will get even less time on the pitch.
Schwarzer had a real mare on Monday but it would take an amazing keeper to recover from going two goals down in 7 minutes - his confidence/concentration was shot for the rest of the match and with your own fans booing you it's hardly going to improve.
Stockdale will be rewarded for his patience if he stays with us for another year or two. I can't see Schwarzer playing any more than that.
What annoys me is that we are so quick to find a scapegoat the minute we have a bad result.
Quote from: Jimpav on May 11, 2011, 04:15:31 PM
...with your own fans booing you it's hardly going to improve.
I didn't hear boos until half time, and they were few and far between, quickly silenced, and aimed at the team in general. On the whole the crowd stayed positive and supportive, especially when we showed some fight in the second half.
Booing where I was sitting and a fair few people walking out when the 3rd and 4th goals went in.
There are two things I will never do at a Fulham game. 1. Boo my team. 2. Leave early due to a bad performance.
Quote from: Jimpav on May 11, 2011, 06:42:05 PM
Booing where I was sitting and a fair few people walking out when the 3rd and 4th goals went in.
OK, I should qualify that:
On the whole the crowd
who stayed stayed positive and supportive, especially when we showed some fight in the second half.
As for leaving early, I can understand it if you've got a train to catch, or your house is on fire, or if the team has given up trying, but that wasn't the case Monday. I stayed till the bitter end, and applauded too, and so did quite a few others.
Quote from: The Bronsons on May 11, 2011, 07:44:58 PM
Quote from: Jimpav on May 11, 2011, 06:42:05 PM
Booing where I was sitting and a fair few people walking out when the 3rd and 4th goals went in.
OK, I should qualify that:
On the whole the crowd who stayed stayed positive and supportive, especially when we showed some fight in the second half.
As for leaving early, I can understand it if you've got a train to catch, or your house is on fire, or if the team has given up trying, but that wasn't the case Monday. I stayed till the bitter end, and applauded too, and so did quite a few others.
That was my impression too - and I was looking out for booing and couldn't hear any. There were a few people who left after goals 3 and 4 were conceded though, but not many.
Shows how far we've come I guess - since there were loads of boos and "Hughes out!" cries after mere draws in the winter.
That's fair enough chaps. As you say IW there has been worse booing for less and it could have been worse.
I think it would have been pretty churlish to boo or walk out though given we won 0-3 away the following week to the grand away audience of 500!
Quote from: finnster01 on May 11, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
For me the argument of starting Stockdale over Schwarz the last two games is more of "give Stockdale a chance so he can see there is a future for him at Fulham". He didn't do much wrong when the Big Aussie was out, and even though I still think the Aussie is the better keeper right now, but I hate to lose Stockdale for the future. He is already getting a bit grumpy.
I say we give him the last two run outs in the Prem, start talking contract extension, but perhaps start Schwarz next season and make a complete switch come Christmas time. If we make Europe, there should be plenty of starts around for both of them anyways
I agree. I also would like milord to consider that many of us who are in favor of Young Mr. Stockdale getting the #1 shirt next season have expressed the opinion that he should have been given more consideration over Schwarzer LONG before the Liverpool game. Many of us have been commenting on his hesitation early in the season and, in pretty much every match since the end of the Asian Cup, his appalling distribution. Now we know that the court is much too wise to be swayed by the argument that Schwarzer's detractors are overreacting to one match.
thanks milud.
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on May 09, 2011, 10:00:07 PM
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:51:20 PM
Quote from: Sheepskin Junior on May 09, 2011, 09:47:59 PM
and not finish itQuote from: FatFreddysCat on May 09, 2011, 09:44:00 PM
Quote from: zzamora on May 09, 2011, 09:35:17 PM
Hes been horrific get him out! :red:
stockdale for last 2!
Yep, but Swarcz to start next season.
and not finish it
I feel that we've gotta introduce stockdale...hes quality!
He's good but needs to watch his eating habits.
Schwarzer is only a couple of centimeters taller than Stockers and heavier so I don't think he's actually overweight.
Stockers is beginning to look dangerously like Neville Southall so something is wrong with those "listed" stats
Quote from: epsomraver on May 10, 2011, 03:39:15 PM
That mate is bow locks, I support the best keeper for Fulham my team, and his nationality does not come into it, Keller American, Niemi, Finnish, all irrelevant,they were the best we had at the time, Schwarz deserves to be dropped and Stockdale in, he was guilty of poor keeping , poor kicking and yes one good save.Once the defence senses that he is having a mare their confidence falls.
Van Der Sar, Dutch
Quote from: finnster01 on May 14, 2011, 03:42:27 PM
Stockers is beginning to look dangerously like Neville Southall so something is wrong with those "listed" stats
FIFA 11 really isn't reliable :011: Well they have got Dempsey listed as 6'8
