Forget what the media and the rest of the rabid Scouser fan base tells you... (along with the clueless American media)...
Is Liverpool pound for pound better than Fulham on the pitch?
Stop looking at history... look at the current situation...
1 by 1, here we go...
Owners... New owner who like the last is American (which they hated) and while he wishes to be successful also understands that you can't just toss money out the window... or MAF who allows his operations group to do their job, attracts quality managers ever since the Sanchez fiasco and will spend smart money... has taken Fulham from the depths of the football league to a mainstay in the Prem under his watch...
Advantage: Fulham for the time being...
Managers: A manager who was previously sacked at Reading for poor results and now comes from Swansea after riding Roberto Martinez's coattails really ... now wants to try and play a certain style which apparently omits a striker that the club (idiotically) paid 35 million quid for... or a man that has successfully in most people's eyes, manged the likes of Spurs, Ajax, Hamburg including League cup wins and a Europa League semi-final... both currently wish to play attractive possession yet attacking minded football...
Advantage: Fulham
Goalkeepers: Reina, Doni or Schwarzer, Stockdale
Advantage: Tie, both are solid and have solid back-ups...
Defense: Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, Enrique, Coates, Carragher, Martin Kelly... or Hangeland, Riise, Hughes, Senderos, Kelly, Baird, Riether
Advantage: only slightly for Liverpool because of depth... Hangeland is still the best CB on either squad and Riise towards the end of the season last year was far better than Johnson... Skrtel and Agger are injury prone so who knows how long that will last...
Midfield: Leiva, Adam, Gerrard, Cole, Henderson, Downing or Dempsey, Duff, Dembele, Diarra, Ruiz, Sidwell, Etuhu
Advantage: Tie.... a tie you say? Honestly if Danny Murphy were still in the Fulham squad... it would be Fulham... forget the names and look at the production... No goals from Downing, Gerrard always injured (though he was excellent in the Euros), Joe Cole is all tricks no substance (or rare substance), Adam has never fit in because Blackpool was built around him... Leiva also hit or miss each week due to injuries and inconsistency. Dempsey and Dembele would both start in that midfield... Ruiz may later... Diarra if healthy can almost fill Murphy's shoes... We hardly see Sidwell but know he can certainly do a job... certainly as well as Henderson... then we have Duff who seems ageless at times... Bellamy sometimes plays more of a midfield role but I have included him in the forwards, much the way I have Dempsey in our midfield..
Strikers: Aquilani, Suarez, Carroll, Bellamy or Rodallega and Petric...
Advantage: Liverpool... Suarez is class when he is allowed to play and not causing issues for his clubs reputation (what little they have)... Carroll is a talented boy but looks like he won't even fit in, Aquilani is back but is he worth anything? Bellamy is a personal favorite of mine... total twit sometimes but busts it like no other on the field and has electric pace... Hugo and Petric are going to surprise some people this season with how good they are... Petric is a class finisher much the way Nevland was... Rodallega has special talent that will only get better with better talent around him..
Young Players: Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Robinson, Eccleston or Frei, Briggs, Kačaniklić, Kasami, Mesca, Trotta (maybe even Dalla Valla)
Advantage; Fulham.... Suso may yet be a player for them but Frei, Briggs and Kaca are going to be a much bigger part of Fulham this year than most of Liverpool's youth whom I suspect will be blooded in Europa league games and will likely crash out quickly... the best former Liverpool youth IMHO now plays for Fulham...
So going over this... are they really better? Other than the big name... not really... maybe they have more ambition? Perhaps, but in the here and now... Fulham are on even footing for me...
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
+1.
This thread, no offensive, is very deluded.
I would say Liverpool too BUT last season Fulham (imo) was a far better team than Liverpool.
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
to be fair he's talking about the current position on the pitch only, ignoring fanbase, history, wealth etc (although i dunno why owners are included in that). in that respect i don't think they're ever-so-much better than us, especially if you take stevie g out of the equation (which we should bc he's always injured). nonetheless i do still think they're a better team on the pitch and obviously they smash us in every respect off of it
:022:
typical Fulham downers who have drank the media kool-aide over and over...
Lads... it is okay to be positive and proud about your club, we are not in the 3rd divison any longer... we did beat the Reds both times last season... They ain't that great....
Quote from: Terry Angus on July 31, 2012, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
to be fair he's talking about the current position on the pitch only, ignoring fanbase, history, wealth etc (although i dunno why owners are included in that). in that respect i don't think they're ever-so-much better than us, especially if you take stevie g out of the equation (which we should bc he's always injured). nonetheless i do still think they're a better team on the pitch and obviously they smash us in every respect off of it
current owners and management have a very direct correlation to the on-field product... fan-base and history do not...
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:05:50 PM
Quote from: Terry Angus on July 31, 2012, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
to be fair he's talking about the current position on the pitch only, ignoring fanbase, history, wealth etc (although i dunno why owners are included in that). in that respect i don't think they're ever-so-much better than us, especially if you take stevie g out of the equation (which we should bc he's always injured). nonetheless i do still think they're a better team on the pitch and obviously they smash us in every respect off of it
current owners and management have a very direct correlation to the on-field product... fan-base and history do not...
some random american businessman watching the game on tv 3,000 miles away has more effect on what happens on the pitch than 45,000 of the most vocal fans in the world cheering them on only a few feet away?
Quote from: Terry Angus on July 31, 2012, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
to be fair he's talking about the current position on the pitch only, ignoring fanbase, history, wealth etc
yeah, I know.
I love Lucas Leiva.
Quote from: Terry Angus on July 31, 2012, 10:11:12 PM
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:05:50 PM
Quote from: Terry Angus on July 31, 2012, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 09:57:28 PM
Liverpool by a countrymile, hands down.
to be fair he's talking about the current position on the pitch only, ignoring fanbase, history, wealth etc (although i dunno why owners are included in that). in that respect i don't think they're ever-so-much better than us, especially if you take stevie g out of the equation (which we should bc he's always injured). nonetheless i do still think they're a better team on the pitch and obviously they smash us in every respect off of it
current owners and management have a very direct correlation to the on-field product... fan-base and history do not...
some random american businessman watching the game on tv 3,000 miles away has more effect on what happens on the pitch than 45,000 of the most vocal fans in the world cheering them on only a few feet away?
On field talent has far more to do with it... owners are the ones that are willing to buy said talent...
Manure and Man City win away from home all the time... even against teams with rabid support (see Newcastle)... playing at home can help but being urged on can only account for so much... I would be willing to say that Fulham's squad plays just as hard for the fans at Craven Cottage as the Liverpool players do for the Kop... talent and team chemistry in the end is the deciding factor a majority of the time..
Quote from: Matt Inglis on July 31, 2012, 10:19:38 PM
I love Lucas Leiva.
Coming back from a cruciate injury though...
On a more serious note. You should have included a section of which team have more of a reputation for being ****s and which club endorses in more ****ish behavior. We'd win that one. (In the sense that we're not ****s.)
I'd take Liverpool's goalkeeper, defence and attack over ours in a heartbeat. I'd take Aquilani (who is a central midfielder) and Lucas too as a central midfield. Have Bellamy, Dembele and Ruiz as attacking players then have Suarez up front.
So to make that clear, from Fulham I'd only have Dembele, Ruiz and also Hangeland.
I love pre-season optimism, it's cute.
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:22:34 PM
Quote from: Matt Inglis on July 31, 2012, 10:19:38 PM
I love Lucas Leiva.
Coming back from a cruciate injury though...
True, all my mates who support the reds were seriously gutted when that happened. Yet the season before he was one of their most liable players and most of their fans wanted him gone. Fickle tickles.
Quote from: Matt Inglis on July 31, 2012, 10:24:38 PM
True, all my mates who support the reds were seriously gutted when that happened. Yet the season before he was one of their most liable players and most of their fans wanted him gone. Fickle tickles.
No different to fans from any club then.
Quote from: Mr_Moon on July 31, 2012, 10:26:28 PM
Quote from: Matt Inglis on July 31, 2012, 10:24:38 PM
True, all my mates who support the reds were seriously gutted when that happened. Yet the season before he was one of their most liable players and most of their fans wanted him gone. Fickle tickles.
No different to fans from any club then.
I agree most fans are fickle but not quite to the extent of the apparent turnaround of Leiva's fortunes.
(http://)
Quote from: Mr_Moon on July 31, 2012, 10:23:55 PM
I'd take Liverpool's goalkeeper, defence and attack over ours in a heartbeat. I'd take Aquilani (who is a central midfielder) and Lucas too as a central midfield. Have Bellamy, Dembele and Ruiz as attacking players then have Suarez up front.
So to make that clear, from Fulham I'd only have Dembele, Ruiz and also Hangeland.
I love pre-season optimism, it's cute.
He has mostly played as a central attacking MF or second striker for Liverpool when he actually played...
Interesting that Clint Dempsey does not fit in there... what flavor, cherry? Perhaps good old fashioned Grape?
(http://brokensidewalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/kool-aid-man.jpg)
Quote from: Matt Inglis on July 31, 2012, 10:28:59 PM
I agree most fans are fickle but not quite to the extent of the apparent turnaround of Leiva's fortunes.
They are. It just doesn't get as much coverage.
Quote from: Mr_Moon on July 31, 2012, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: Matt Inglis on July 31, 2012, 10:28:59 PM
I agree most fans are fickle but not quite to the extent of the apparent turnaround of Leiva's fortunes.
They are. It just doesn't get as much coverage.
To be fair you are probably right. I'd probably have to read other fan forums to even justify what I said but then, it's late and I felt like making a sweeping statement. Anything to bash Liverpool, how sad.
Whatever way you dress it up..take the blinkers off and Liverpool are a bigger club than us FACT. Historically they are one of the two biggest clubs in the country.
I could argue against Villa..Everton..that type of team..maybe Newcastle as well, but come on and put yourself in the boots of a player at our club. A club who pay your wages but your not a supporter of. Liverpool are a draw.
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:29:51 PM
He has mostly played as a central attacking MF or second striker for Liverpool when he actually played...
Interesting that Clint Dempsey does not fit in there... what flavor, cherry? Perhaps good old fashioned Grape?
Considering you classed him as a striker, that says it all. You're also using some absurd logic that even if he did play as a second striker -which he didn't- then despite last playing for Liverpool under Hodgson (two managers ago), he'd still function in that role. He wouldn't and he won't.
As has already been said, this thread is delusional.
I'm not so sure if Brede is better than Skrtel and Agger ...
Quote from: MJG on July 31, 2012, 10:40:03 PM
Whatever way you dress it up..take the blinkers off and Liverpool are a bigger club than us FACT. Historically they are one of the two biggest clubs in the country.
I could argue against Villa..Everton..that type of team..maybe Newcastle as well, but come on and put yourself in the boots of a player at our club. A club who pay your wages but your not a supporter of. Liverpool are a draw.
Sorry but living in Liverpool is not a draw... the grass was greener for Konch and Woy...look where it got them...
BIG CLUB.... seriously who cares?
The Yankees are a massive club... yet the Tampa Bay Devil Rays have become almost a mainstay in the AL east race here in America... all with limited public image of history... limited budget and very little television coverage... they did it by convincing great but far from flashy players that they have a chance to be a part of something... something special....
They did what I think Fulham can do...
Quote from: EJL on July 31, 2012, 10:42:49 PM
I'm not so sure if Brede is better than Skrtel and Agger ...
He is... you only hear their names more because of where they play..
Quote from: Mr_Moon on July 31, 2012, 10:41:06 PM
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:29:51 PM
He has mostly played as a central attacking MF or second striker for Liverpool when he actually played...
Interesting that Clint Dempsey does not fit in there... what flavor, cherry? Perhaps good old fashioned Grape?
Considering you classed him as a striker, that says it all. You're also using some absurd logic that even if he did play as a second striker -which he didn't- then despite last playing for Liverpool under Hodgson (two managers ago), he'd still function in that role. He wouldn't and he won't.
As has already been said, this thread is delusional.
Fine.. he is a midfielder.... Guess what... HE SUCKS... if he was so great he would not have been loaned out twice...
Its got nothing to do with living in Liverpool and I doubt very much any Pool players live in the city boundarys.
I would love us to be able to compete at a top six level year in year out. At the moment its still a get 40PTS and see what happens type club.
The difference between 7/8/9 and 14/15/16 in the lge is a few pts here or there, its all about margins.
Liverpool for all their problems have consistently been a top club with no worries about relegation or even bottom half.
This has nothing to do with belittling the club I love and have supported for 35 years, its about understanding where we are currently.
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:52:40 PM
Fine.. he is a midfielder.... Guess what... HE SUCKS... if he was so great he would not have been loaned out twice...
Must really suck playing for Juventus and Milan.
fp.gif
Quote from: MJG on July 31, 2012, 10:53:07 PM
Its got nothing to do with living in Liverpool and I doubt very much any Pool players live in the city boundarys.
I would love us to be able to compete at a top six level year in year out. At the moment its still a get 40PTS and see what happens type club.
The difference between 7/8/9 and 14/15/16 in the lge is a few pts here or there, its all about margins.
Liverpool for all their problems have consistently been a top club with no worries about relegation or even bottom half.
This has nothing to do with belittling the club I love and have supported for 35 years, its about understanding where we are currently.
CURRENTLY... such a funny little word isn't it...
Currently... our squads are not that different when comparing quality... I was only posting about this upcoming season... not what future ambition they may have as opposed to us...
Our current squad would be in absolutely no danger of being relegated this season and you know it...
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
Where would you place Brede in the grand scheme of DCs in this era? Is he just a shade under the top players or is he nearly as good, but without the name people "know".
Could play for any team and start IMO.
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:55:57 PM
our squads are not that different when comparing quality...
Reality check anyone?
I like optimism, but we should stay calm. Their squad is better, and the club itself is miles ahead of us in every aspect.
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
And why can't Brede be? Who says... besides the media that shoves bigger name club players down your throat?
he captains his country (and likely Fulham this season), he has scored the exact same amount of goals for his club, he heads what has been one of the best back 4s in the league (outside of all the ridiculous money squads) for the past 4 years...
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:58:31 PM
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:55:57 PM
our squads are not that different when comparing quality...
Reality check anyone?
I like optimism, but we should stay calm. Their squad is better, and the club itself is miles ahead of us in every aspect.
Agreed. They edge us in both starting 11 and bench players. Not as much as they should be, mind you...but we have to be realistic about our expectations. We're still a club that has to fight well to be in the top half of the table.
Quote from: Patterson on July 31, 2012, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
Where would you place Brede in the grand scheme of DCs in this era? Is he just a shade under the top players or is he nearly as good, but without the name people "know".
Could play for any team and start IMO.
I don't know. I think there are several better CBs out there. We can be lucky to have him, he's a fantastic player and has found his level. Players like Kompany, Lescott, Vidic, Agger are clearly ahead of him though.
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:58:57 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
And why can't Brede be? Who says... besides the media that shoves bigger name club players down your throat?
he captains his country (and likely Fulham this season), he has scored the exact same amount of goals for his club, he heads what has been one of the best back 4s in the league (outside of all the ridiculous money squads) for the past 4 years...
Brede's 10/11 season was very good, his last season was ok. I just don't think he's THAT good really. And it's not about the media thing now. He's just not AS GOOD AS the players I named IMHO.
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 11:00:20 PM
Quote from: Patterson on July 31, 2012, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
Where would you place Brede in the grand scheme of DCs in this era? Is he just a shade under the top players or is he nearly as good, but without the name people "know".
Could play for any team and start IMO.
I don't know. I think there are several better CBs out there. We can be lucky to have him, he's a fantastic player and has found his level. Players like Kompany, Lescott, Vidic, Agger are clearly ahead of him though.
I have not seen anything from Kompany, Agger or Lescott that shows me they are better than Brede... Vidic is... but I also said ridiculous money teams... for which all but Agger are a part of...
Liverpool is not Manure or Man City... they won't ever be..
Agger is injury prone and not nearly as good as you are making him out to be...
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:58:31 PM
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 10:55:57 PM
our squads are not that different when comparing quality...
Reality check anyone?
I like optimism, but we should stay calm. Their squad is better, and the club itself is miles ahead of us in every aspect.
i'll pull you up on that one and say I think the youth setup we have and are still building is good if not better. They are still recovering from Rafa's muck up of the youth policy.
Before Brede came... Fulham were concedeing 58-60 goals on average... after... about 45 (34 one season!! :001: )....
Sorry but there is a direct correlation...
PL seaon total goals against...
Pre Brede
60, 58, 60, 60
Post Brede,
34, 46, 43, 51....
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 11:03:40 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 11:00:20 PM
Quote from: Patterson on July 31, 2012, 10:58:11 PM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
Where would you place Brede in the grand scheme of DCs in this era? Is he just a shade under the top players or is he nearly as good, but without the name people "know".
Could play for any team and start IMO.
I don't know. I think there are several better CBs out there. We can be lucky to have him, he's a fantastic player and has found his level. Players like Kompany, Lescott, Vidic, Agger are clearly ahead of him though.
I have not seen anything from Kompany, Agger or Lescott that shows me they are better than Brede... Vidic is... but I also said ridiculous money teams... for which all but Agger are a part of...
Liverpool is not Manure or Man City... they won't ever be..
Agger is injury prone and not nearly as good as you are making him out to be...
Oh COME ON! Kompany is a FANTASTIC defender! Agger and Lescott are better than Hangeland too.
QuoteQuoteI don't know. I think there are several better CBs out there. We can be lucky to have him, he's a fantastic player and has found his level. Players like Kompany, Lescott, Vidic, Agger are clearly ahead of him though.
I have not seen anything from Kompany, Agger or Lescott that shows me they are better than Brede... Vidic is... but I also said ridiculous money teams... for which all but Agger are a part of...
Liverpool is not Manure or Man City... they won't ever be..
Agger is injury prone and not nearly as good as you are making him out to be...
Now I know your taking the piss, Kompany over Brede is as easy as call anyone could make. He's a tank.
Lescott has just had a blinding season, so much so I ate every bloody hat in my house.
I made the same point about Liverpool a little time ago. I didn't think Roy would do well there. Thought they were on the way down from the once high top 4 teams. I think they got lucky in the cups. Simply don't see Agger and Skirtel as amongst the World's best. However I am no expert on the matter. But then clearly footballers are not either. I wouldn't touch Liverpool with a barge poll if I was a player whatever the dosh. Rodgers will struggle with them.
Again... not talking about Man City players here... only AGGER...
PL season total goals against... the facts are there..
Pre Brede
60, 58, 60, 60
Post Brede,
34, 46, 43, 51....
What happened to the Do not feed the troll smiley?
Pre Hodgson...post Hodgson
Its not all down to one player..it was a system, it was Hughes(the player), its was Konchesky and Pants and it was partly Brede and ffs maybe even Etuhu.
Quote from: MJG on July 31, 2012, 11:15:19 PM
Pre Hodgson...post Hodgson
Its not all down to one player..it was a system, it was Hughes(the player), its was Konchesky and Pants and it was partly Brede and ffs maybe even Etuhu.
SCHWARZER!
Whilst the initial comparison is rather amusing, I feel the need to stand up for Hangeland.
He is definitely top 4 quality especially if he has a pacy covering defender next to him. His positioning is excellent and he is great on the ball and building attacks.
Kompany and Vidic are a class above, yes, but Hangeland is definitely on the next level down.
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 11:18:34 PM
Quote from: MJG on July 31, 2012, 11:15:19 PM
Pre Hodgson...post Hodgson
Its not all down to one player..it was a system, it was Hughes(the player), its was Konchesky and Pants and it was partly Brede and ffs maybe even Etuhu.
SCHWARZER!
goes without saying ;)
Quote from: Mr_Moon on July 31, 2012, 11:14:46 PM
What happened to the Do not feed the troll smiley?
I ate it.
Quote from: MJG on July 31, 2012, 11:07:51 PM
QuoteQuoteI don't know. I think there are several better CBs out there. We can be lucky to have him, he's a fantastic player and has found his level. Players like Kompany, Lescott, Vidic, Agger are clearly ahead of him though.
I have not seen anything from Kompany, Agger or Lescott that shows me they are better than Brede... Vidic is... but I also said ridiculous money teams... for which all but Agger are a part of...
Liverpool is not Manure or Man City... they won't ever be..
Agger is injury prone and not nearly as good as you are making him out to be...
Now I know your taking the piss, Kompany over Brede is as easy as call anyone could make. He's a tank.
Vince is possibly the best in the world. If he isn't yet, it's not far off.
Gents and ladies, lets refrain from calling other posters delusional and suggesting they are a troll......whether you agree with the premise or not. Lets keep things respectful.
Quote from: RidgeRider on July 31, 2012, 11:52:47 PM
Gents and ladies, lets refrain from calling other posters delusional and suggesting they are a troll......whether you agree with the premise or not. Lets keep things respectful.
Especially for a poster that has been posting on Fulham boards for over 5 years now...
and not building post counts with little... on word posts in every thread... when I say something.. I say something I have been thinking...
Quality not quantity isn't really the case here your Highness.
Quote from: Mr_Moon on August 01, 2012, 01:05:27 AM
Quality not quantity isn't really the case here your Highness.
Oh yes Highness that is correct... I am not the one bowing down to supposed better and bigger clubs because others tell me I should... I don't accept my place or the clubs place...
sometimes it takes some bollocks...
I'd say a higher league finish and two cup finals is better than us.
Quote from: Mr_Moon on August 01, 2012, 01:52:32 AM
I'd say a higher league finish and two cup finals is better than us.
Goal difference... and we beat them both times...
Also, not saying it is right but who in the Prem actually cares about the FA and League Cup anymore unless you actually make it to the semis and can smell a chance at European place...
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThB4_FZ9Y9DjdN52TL3nHZjJsq02QhVL9xd11_98OlIeIyGIphSLz3jfw7Zw)
Just because we beat a side a couple of times in a season does not make us suddenly a better team than them.
You can't ignore history, because a lot of Liverpool's history also gives them far superior potential than us.
Yes, we have a chance of beating them on the pitch, but I disagree that we are on a season long par with them, or in terms of current potential. You only have to look at the bookies odds for the coming season to demonstrate that (and they are not always far wrong).
I have always stood up for me team and would gladly argue our position with any like minded QPR fan for example, but sorry not Liverpool just yet.
Quote from: mccscratch on August 01, 2012, 03:28:52 AM
Goal difference... and we beat them both times...
Also, not saying it is right but who in the Prem actually cares about the FA and League Cup anymore unless you actually make it to the semis and can smell a chance at European place...
Does winning the League Cup and smelling (tasting?) European football count?
Here's the two first team squads, make your own mind up
(http://i50.tinypic.com/ie2jpg.jpg)
I don't really understand this argument? who has a better playing squad?
It's quite clear that Liverpool have a better squad than us and yes we did beat them at the Cottage but we're capable of beating most teams at Craven Cottage regardless of whether they have a better squad than us. The Anfield victory was good but we did face quite a weak Liverpool team as they had the cup final at the weekend.
To put it simply just get our h2h record vs Liverpool and league table finishes vs Liverpool during our time in the prem and you will establish who is better.
I don't think you should accuse people of 'drinking a media koolaide' when accepting that Liverpool are in a better position than us at the moment and more likely to achieve success. It is fairly reasonable analysis.
Most you have completely clouded the argument which was set forth on the original post... in a way it has sort of proven my theory...
all of you just assume that they are better than us on the pitch.... I asked you to throw out history and ignore the flashy names that are shoved down your throat by the media who cover them 5-10 times more than us... but you can't do it... and instead call me delusional because I think outside of the striker position... our squad is just as capable as theirs...
You brought up Agger and Skrtel... oh what golden god footballers they are.... actually they are no better than Brede and I would certainly take Brede for the money...
You brought up Lucas... he is bloody brilliant, I would have him any day... actually he is recovering from cruciate injury and I doubt he will be anywhere near as good this season....
You brought up Reina.... he is world class.... well guess what so is Schwarzer
I just think we at Fulham have so many supporters with a giant inferiority complex.... except when it comes to Hull, QPR, Brentford and the like....
Those days of the club are over.... we are not relegation fodder anymore... we are an established top 10 side, we have one of the most talented teams that club has had...certainly in the Premier League era
We are on the way up... they are on the way down.... obviously their history and ambition will be different but in the here and now.... I feel we are nearly just as strong and for a half or even a quarter of the money...
Quote from: mccscratch on August 01, 2012, 01:46:43 PM
Most you have completely clouded the argument which was set forth on the original post... in a way it has sort of proven my theory...
all of you just assume that they are better than us on the pitch.... I asked you to throw out history and ignore the flashy names that are shoved down your throat by the media who cover them 5-10 times more than us... but you can't do it... and instead call me delusional because I think outside of the striker position... our squad is just as capable as theirs...
You brought up Agger and Skrtel... oh what golden god footballers they are.... actually they are no better than Brede and I would certainly take Brede for the money...
You brought up Lucas... he is bloody brilliant, I would have him any day... actually he is recovering from cruciate injury and I doubt he will be anywhere near as good this season....
You brought up Reina.... he is world class.... well guess what so is Schwarzer
I just think we at Fulham have so many supporters with a giant inferiority complex.... except when it comes to Hull, QPR, Brentford and the like....
Those days of the club are over.... we are not relegation fodder anymore... we are an established top 10 side, we have one of the most talented teams that club has had...certainly in the Premier League era
We are on the way up... they are on the way down.... obviously their history and ambition will be different but in the here and now.... I feel we are nearly just as strong and for a half or even a quarter of the money...
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mccscratch I bet £10 (or $15) that Liverpool finish higher than Fulham next season. On?
Quote from: ImperialWhite on August 01, 2012, 02:11:23 PM
mccscratch I bet £10 (or $15) that Liverpool finish higher than Fulham next season. On?
why bet you when I am getting better odds with the bookies...
Also to whomever said... just look at the books and see who is favored....Bookies are not always judging who is better overall when they put up pre-season place and win total futures... they are setting a number where they think the public will bet evenly on both sides... Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and City will always have inflated numbers compared with other teams because they are everyone's "favorite" clubs in the UK and abroad... bandwagon fans normally pick on of those 5 to support...
And Manager-know who I would rate-no disrespect to the Reading reject-he's got the almost impossible job n wish him well as long as they finish well below us-which IS possible...will dream on...In Jol I trust..
...Liverpool have finished... above us... for virtually every season in their history... including... every... season... since we were most recently... promoted... finished in two cup finals last... season... won a trophy... fill Anfield... greater capacity to pay wages... on par last season... but was still a bad season for them... good for us....
...
Liverpool 11/12 - bad season the manager is sacked and the team is ridiculed.
Fulham 11/12 - great season after a difficult start Jol is praised for his work.
BOTH finished on 52 points. What does that say?
It says that Liverpool FC had a poorer than average season and can be expected to do better, and that Fulham had a decent season, about par. I.e. that Liverpool's par is higher than Fulham's par. Because they have better players. And can afford to buy better players.
Quote from: mccscratch on August 01, 2012, 02:16:10 PM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on August 01, 2012, 02:11:23 PM
mccscratch I bet £10 (or $15) that Liverpool finish higher than Fulham next season. On?
Also to whomever said... just look at the books and see who is favored....Bookies are not always judging who is better overall when they put up pre-season place and win total futures... they are setting a number where they think the public will bet evenly on both sides... Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and City will always have inflated numbers compared with other teams because they are everyone's "favorite" clubs in the UK and abroad... bandwagon fans normally pick on of those 5 to support...
True but irrelevant.
The better side still gets shorter odds. Punters aren't that biased.
Quote from: ImperialWhite on August 01, 2012, 02:35:34 PM
...Liverpool have finished... above us... for virtually every season in their history... including... every... season... since we were most recently... promoted... finished in two cup finals last... season... won a trophy... fill Anfield... greater capacity to pay wages... on par last season... but was still a bad season for them... good for us....
...
Liverpool 11/12 - bad season the manager is sacked and the team is ridiculed.
Fulham 11/12 - great season after a difficult start Jol is praised for his work.
BOTH finished on 52 points. What does that say?
It says that Liverpool FC had a poorer than average season and can be expected to do better, and that Fulham had a decent season, about par. I.e. that Liverpool's par is higher than Fulham's par. Because they have better players. And can afford to buy better players.
Quote from: mccscratch on August 01, 2012, 02:16:10 PM
Quote from: ImperialWhite on August 01, 2012, 02:11:23 PM
mccscratch I bet £10 (or $15) that Liverpool finish higher than Fulham next season. On?
Also to whomever said... just look at the books and see who is favored....Bookies are not always judging who is better overall when they put up pre-season place and win total futures... they are setting a number where they think the public will bet evenly on both sides... Man United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool and City will always have inflated numbers compared with other teams because they are everyone's "favorite" clubs in the UK and abroad... bandwagon fans normally pick on of those 5 to support...
True but irrelevant.
The better side still gets shorter odds. Punters aren't that biased.
Considering I work in the sports betting business... I can tell you that true non-biased punters only make up about 1/4 of the betting public... hence the reason the books inflate prices on more popular teams as they know they can and have to raise the numbers a bit higher...
So say we expect Chelsea to end on 70... they would put them at almost 80 because they know at 70 pts they would get a ton more action on them to achieve more than 70 and thus put themselves at risk if they did it... (as it turns out they are listed at 78, did not know that actually, I say well under that)
If Liverpool had had Rodgers or Hodgson last season, they'd have finished well up the table. You can use any yardstick you like, but the results are the same.
1. Liverpool are a bigger club than we are.
2. Liverpool is 1000 times more likely to get into the Champions League within the next 3 seasons than we are.
McS, I love my club, but just because I think Fulham is the greatest sporting franchise in the world doesn't mean that I think we can accomplish more than any sporting franchise in the world. I HATE the Yankees and the RedSox, but I have to admit that they are much more likely to succeed each season than the Orioles and the Astros, the two teams I follow.
Quote from: HatterDon on August 01, 2012, 03:21:17 PM
If Liverpool had had Rodgers or Hodgson last season, they'd have finished well up the table. You can use any yardstick you like, but the results are the same.
1. Liverpool are a bigger club than we are.
2. Liverpool is 1000 times more likely to get into the Champions League within the next 3 seasons than we are.
McS, I love my club, but just because I think Fulham is the greatest sporting franchise in the world doesn't mean that I think we can accomplish more than any sporting franchise in the world. I HATE the Yankees and the RedSox, but I have to admit that they are much more likely to succeed each season than the Orioles and the Astros, the two teams I follow.
First off, congrats to your O's for being only 1.5 games back in the wild card race. I used the D Rays example earlier. They have become almost a mainstay in the AL East race each year despite being much smaller than the Yanks. Fulham can be that. Maybe not every year because of our size and ambition but I think we are almost as good as Liverpool are THIS season.
That we are even comparing the two clubs says alot about how far we have come.
They have not done much business, as yet, in the market (and Dempsey not a world beater).Believe we have a better manager in Jol-but wouldn't put much more than a fiver on us finishing higher.Interesting discussion though-and a very interesting season to come-the top few apart-bottom half will be very very interesting-and we will prob be amongst that lot....
Quote from: west kowloon white on August 01, 2012, 03:43:25 PM
That we are even comparing the two clubs says alot about how far we have come.
They have not done much business, as yet, in the market (and Dempsey not a world beater).Believe we have a better manager in Jol-but wouldn't put much more than a fiver on us finishing higher.Interesting discussion though-and a very interesting season to come-the top few apart-bottom half will be very very interesting-and we will prob be amongst that lot....
agreed.
people are being a little unfair on the original poster who was talking about our respective current players only--not which of us is the bigger club. personally, if i had to pick a best xi from our combined squads, i'd probably have dembele, ruiz, dempsey, hangeland and maybe schwarzer and riise in there, making it about 4-6 fulham and 5-7 liverpool, which isn't a huge difference
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
and Brede isn't?...
Quote from: FulhamFan2 on August 02, 2012, 01:03:48 AM
Quote from: Mr Fulham on July 31, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Sorry, but no way Brede is better than Agger. Agger is up there with the world's best.
and Brede isn't?...
Nope. I think he isn't. Don't get me wrong, I love Brede, he's great, but to say he's one of the world's best CBs is quite ridiculous IMHO.
-------------------schwarzer/reina
--johnson--------agger-------hangeland---jose enrique/riise
--------------lucas-------------dembele
----ruiz---------------gerrard-------------dempsey
------------------suarez
liv: 5-7 players
ful: 4-6 players
fact
Looking through some rose colored glasses if you think Ruiz has a spot in the starting 11 based on what he's done so far at Fulham...
Dempsey, Dembele, think Hangeland has a slight edge over Skrtel but not Agger, Riise if he plays like he did in the second half. GK is a dead heat for me.
4.5/11 max. I appreciate the OP's point of view though, love these kinds of debates over some pints.
Quote from: MrCheviot on August 02, 2012, 04:34:24 AM
Looking through some rose colored glasses if you think Ruiz has a spot in the starting 11 based on what he's done so far at Fulham...
Dempsey, Dembele, think Hangeland has a slight edge over Skrtel but not Agger, Riise if he plays like he did in the second half. GK is a dead heat for me.
4.5/11 max. I appreciate the OP's point of view though, love these kinds of debates over some pints.
This is pretty much who I'd go with. Everyone prior has touched on the history so no need to cover that again but I'm interested to see how Rodgers fares this season. I rate him as a manager as he likes to coach the players to an improved standard by installing a great team ethic based around high pressure pressing and retaining the ball. It may take a while for the team to fully take his tactics on board so I wonder how long the rabid Liverpool fans give him if results and performances don't start well?
Joe Allen will be an excellent acquisition and it looks pretty clear that Carroll isn't wanted and they'll use the money saved on salary to finally make an offer for Clint.
There is still a gap between our squads but nowhere near where it used to be and if we can continue to deal well in the market, it's not inconceviable that we could overtake them, just unlikely.
Quote from: mccscratch on July 31, 2012, 09:47:17 PM
Forget what the media and the rest of the rabid Scouser fan base tells you... (along with the clueless American media)...
Is Liverpool pound for pound better than Fulham on the pitch?
Stop looking at history... look at the current situation...
1 by 1, here we go...
Owners... New owner who like the last is American (which they hated) and while he wishes to be successful also understands that you can't just toss money out the window... or MAF who allows his operations group to do their job, attracts quality managers ever since the Sanchez fiasco and will spend smart money... has taken Fulham from the depths of the football league to a mainstay in the Prem under his watch...
Advantage: Fulham for the time being...
Managers: A manager who was previously sacked at Reading for poor results and now comes from Swansea after riding Roberto Martinez's coattails really ... now wants to try and play a certain style which apparently omits a striker that the club (idiotically) paid 35 million quid for... or a man that has successfully in most people's eyes, manged the likes of Spurs, Ajax, Hamburg including League cup wins and a Europa League semi-final... both currently wish to play attractive possession yet attacking minded football...
Advantage: Fulham
Goalkeepers: Reina, Doni or Schwarzer, Stockdale
Advantage: Tie, both are solid and have solid back-ups...
Defense: Skrtel, Agger, Johnson, Enrique, Coates, Carragher, Martin Kelly... or Hangeland, Riise, Hughes, Senderos, Kelly, Baird, Riether
Advantage: only slightly for Liverpool because of depth... Hangeland is still the best CB on either squad and Riise towards the end of the season last year was far better than Johnson... Skrtel and Agger are injury prone so who knows how long that will last...
Midfield: Leiva, Adam, Gerrard, Cole, Henderson, Downing or Dempsey, Duff, Dembele, Diarra, Ruiz, Sidwell, Etuhu
Advantage: Tie.... a tie you say? Honestly if Danny Murphy were still in the Fulham squad... it would be Fulham... forget the names and look at the production... No goals from Downing, Gerrard always injured (though he was excellent in the Euros), Joe Cole is all tricks no substance (or rare substance), Adam has never fit in because Blackpool was built around him... Leiva also hit or miss each week due to injuries and inconsistency. Dempsey and Dembele would both start in that midfield... Ruiz may later... Diarra if healthy can almost fill Murphy's shoes... We hardly see Sidwell but know he can certainly do a job... certainly as well as Henderson... then we have Duff who seems ageless at times... Bellamy sometimes plays more of a midfield role but I have included him in the forwards, much the way I have Dempsey in our midfield..
Strikers: Aquilani, Suarez, Carroll, Bellamy or Rodallega and Petric...
Advantage: Liverpool... Suarez is class when he is allowed to play and not causing issues for his clubs reputation (what little they have)... Carroll is a talented boy but looks like he won't even fit in, Aquilani is back but is he worth anything? Bellamy is a personal favorite of mine... total twit sometimes but busts it like no other on the field and has electric pace... Hugo and Petric are going to surprise some people this season with how good they are... Petric is a class finisher much the way Nevland was... Rodallega has special talent that will only get better with better talent around him..
Young Players: Shelvey, Suso, Sterling, Robinson, Eccleston or Frei, Briggs, Kačaniklić, Kasami, Mesca, Trotta (maybe even Dalla Valla)
Advantage; Fulham.... Suso may yet be a player for them but Frei, Briggs and Kaca are going to be a much bigger part of Fulham this year than most of Liverpool's youth whom I suspect will be blooded in Europa league games and will likely crash out quickly... the best former Liverpool youth IMHO now plays for Fulham...
So going over this... are they really better? Other than the big name... not really... maybe they have more ambition? Perhaps, but in the here and now... Fulham are on even footing for me...
cheers for bringing this back up. now that dempsey is definitely leaving us and liverpool have signed assaidi, borini and allen, i'd like to retract my previous suggestion that their best starting xi isn't that much better than ours. with the new players they've much much much more quality than us on the pitch, just as they're better than us in every respect off it.
Quote from: Terry Angus on August 18, 2012, 04:52:08 PM
cheers for bringing this back up. now that dempsey is definitely leaving us and liverpool have signed assaidi, borini and allen, i'd like to retract my previous suggestion that their best starting xi isn't that much better than ours. with the new players they've much much much more quality than us on the pitch, just as they're better than us in every respect off it.
Clueless...you are, keep sucking the media teet
Terry - are you being ironic? Or Realistic?
Nogood "confused I am" Boyo
