I've said this in the past, and I maintain it now. Slavisa Jokanovic is, in a very bad way, reminding me of Martin Jol.
I never liked Martin Jol. I hated some of the tactics, I hated the way he fell out with some of the players, his transfer strategy of ageing plodders, and therefore when results started to go downhill I wanted him out quicker than most (I think he should have gone 6 months earlier than he eventually did). But for just under two years I accepted he was getting results and that therefore for the time being I would have to put up with it.
Unfortunately, Slav now finds himself in a similar appraisal in my books. I am not a fan of his tactics and I think he's being carried by the team. First, when we go forwards we move into 3 centre backs with McDonald dropping in, the two full backs pressing forward, and then the other 5 outfielders are in no shape or structure whatsoever. Additionally, the defensive line is ridiculously high for our centre backs. To have 21 of the 22 players in the opposition half is a statement of intent, but it's incredibly vulnerable to counter-attacks, especially with Tomas Kalas and Tim Ream at the back, neither of whom are blessed with pace. Tim Ream being outpaced by Orlando Sa a few years ago under Kit sticks in my mind like glue. Like Jol, Slav is unwilling to adapt this to the opposition - to play such a high line against pacey attackers Eriksen and Kane against Spurs last year was a disastrous decision. But it seems to be getting results.
I also feel very strongly that the passing is very backwards and sideways. It reminds me of that scene from The IT Crowd where Moss and the postman are discussing football: the thing about Fulham is they always try and walk it in. How many times in the last two years have we heard a cacophony of booing from the Hammy End with unnecessary backward passes, especially when a goal behind? The Soton match in the FA Cup 10 days ago really epitomised this: we had 58.5% possession, attempted 160 more passes, yet only mustered 7 shots to their 13 (only 1 of which of ours was on target). Our passing accuracy in the league this year is 83%, but we've also played the fewest long balls (1,564) and the most amount of short passes (12,499) this season. There's no risk attached to our passing. It's backwards and sideways rubbish. But it seems to be getting results.
The defending is increasingly haphazard too. Bettinelli, Fredericks and Ream (and Madl until last night) were all around in the 2015-16 defensive horror show. It can't be the case that Kalas and Odoi are making all the difference, especially with the form Kalas is in (i.e. lack of it). We have made fewer interceptions per game than any other side in the division this season. We allow more play in our own third than any other side bar Nottingham Forest and Sunderland. We're very content to allow the opposition to stroke the ball around on the edge of the box. We are also poor in the air, winning fewer aerial duels than any other side in the division. Millwall, the leaders in this statistic, have won more than double the amount of aerials per game (32.7) than us (14.9): I never thought we'd miss Dan Burn, but on this statistic, we clearly are. But for now, it seems to be getting results.
The way that Jokanovic has also Magathed players out and buried them under his patio is also a disgrace. I have no idea what Michael Madl said to Jokanovic, but for him and Djalo to be frozen out to the extent that they have been left the defence incredibly thin in terms of depth. This has also had the knock-on effect of forcing Denis Odoi into centre half and for Sessegnon to be at full back, clearly not his best position - made worse by Kalas being out of form, because now he too is being phased out. We need centre halves. And if this means we have to bite the bullet and recall Djalo (now that Madl has gone), so be it. But for now, it seems to be getting results.
Other points of contention: I'm glad we've ended the Johansen at #9 experiment, because I didn't get it at all. We only seem to have one plan (although we did once use a 4-4-2 for about 5 minutes this season and I thought it looked fairly OK). I will also never forgive him for selling LVC or Adeniran, nor for writing the likes of Grimmer and Burn off at such a young age, nowhere near the peak of their careers.
But it seems to be getting results, so for now I'm resigned to the fact he is our manager. Of course I want us to win. But if things go wrong, don't say I didn't warn you.
Edit: I appreciate the timing of this post is quite weird, but I felt I need to get this off my chest. I also agree with Kevin Pietersen that when you're winning you shouldn't pretend issues don't exist.
Some of your pionts I agree with the exclusion of players also the raants to the press,the players I think still respond to him,as we get results.
Think it's wait and see time and to keep supporting the team.
You want my honest and humble opinion? Okay, you are a WUM.
I agree with quite a lot especially freezing out madl and djalo they've both given a good account of themselves when they've had the rare chances of getting on the pitch. But my opinion of jok hasn't changed since last season , nothing in this world runs perfectly, consistently. Overtime he's proved to be a decent manager. Please remember the constraints he's been under , not being able to choose the new signings. I don't and haven't wanted him to go despite our poor form earlier in the season.
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 07:32:16 AM
But if things go wrong, don't say I didn't warn you.
And when things goes right, what kind of warning would you prefer?
What's sparked this post? You rarely post anything and we are on a decent run of form.
Is it just to have something in place that when we do lose say three on the trot you can post this again?
Don't get me wrong it has a lot of good aspects in it which I could agree and argue with. Its the timing of it I don't get.
Unless like Toshes Mate says you're a WUM?
Ok in my ignorance what does "WUM" mean
Quote from: MJG on January 17, 2018, 07:55:59 AM
What's sparked this post? You rarely post anything and we are on a decent run of form.
Is it just to have something in place that when we do lose say three on the trot you can post this again?
Don't get me wrong it has a lot of good aspects in it which I could agree and argue with. Its the timing of it I don't get.
Unless like Toshes Mate says you're a WUM?
I don't post here very often. It's something I'm attempting to rectify!
I just felt I needed to get this off my chest, and doing it now, rather than in times of losing, serves as a reality check and isn't dismissed as an over-reaction to a loss.
Also, I haven't seen us win this season in person, not even on television, and that has annoyed me slightly, for watching the games back as I do isn't the same.
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: MJG on January 17, 2018, 07:55:59 AM
What's sparked this post? You rarely post anything and we are on a decent run of form.
Is it just to have something in place that when we do lose say three on the trot you can post this again?
Don't get me wrong it has a lot of good aspects in it which I could agree and argue with. Its the timing of it I don't get.
Unless like Toshes Mate says you're a WUM?
Ho3 many games have
I don't post here very often. It's something I'm attempting to rectify!
I just felt I needed to get this off my chest, and doing it now, rather than in times of losing, serves as a reality check and isn't dismissed as an over-reaction to a loss.
Also, I haven't seen us win this season in person, not even on television, and that has annoyed me slightly, for watching the games back as I do isn't the same.
How many games have you gone to?
Quote from: bobbo on January 17, 2018, 08:03:05 AM
Ok in my ignorance what does "WUM" mean
Wind up merchant.
Reading the post I found a collection of the most negative comments made about SJ over the two years he has been here, many of which are nothing to do with his role at Fulham, and none are factually supportable. The one piece of evidence that is most damning is that SJ has been successful both as player, manager and coach.
Quote from: toshes mate on January 17, 2018, 07:50:45 AM
You want my honest and humble opinion? Okay, you are a WUM.
:plus one:
Martin Jol's transfer policy was not to recruit 'ageing plodders', he wasn't given the money and every interview he gave he was saying the club should invest in younger players. His team were playing well until his best players were sold and replaced by donkeys.
Personally I think Joka will do the business if he is given the players he needs.
Mr Brawn it is easy to pick holes in managers and tactics. The players that do not play are supposedly not good enough. I have no reason to say they are. One or two good games does not do it for me. Of the players that have left us very few are doing the business else where.finally who out there is going to do a better job? If it ain't broke don't fix it
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: MJG on January 17, 2018, 07:55:59 AM
What's sparked this post? You rarely post anything and we are on a decent run of form.
Is it just to have something in place that when we do lose say three on the trot you can post this again?
Don't get me wrong it has a lot of good aspects in it which I could agree and argue with. Its the timing of it I don't get.
Unless like Toshes Mate says you're a WUM?
I don't post here very often. It's something I'm attempting to rectify!
I just felt I needed to get this off my chest, and doing it now, rather than in times of losing, serves as a reality check and isn't dismissed as an over-reaction to a loss.
Also, I haven't seen us win this season in person, not even on television, and that has annoyed me slightly, for watching the games back as I do isn't the same.
Perhaps you should subscribe to Fulham TV, plenty of recent games you can watch that we have won!! I hate to think what you would have written a couple of months ago when we weren't winning? I do agree with some of your observations though!!
Quote from: davew on January 17, 2018, 08:50:00 AM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: MJG on January 17, 2018, 07:55:59 AM
What's sparked this post? You rarely post anything and we are on a decent run of form.
Is it just to have something in place that when we do lose say three on the trot you can post this again?
Don't get me wrong it has a lot of good aspects in it which I could agree and argue with. Its the timing of it I don't get.
Unless like Toshes Mate says you're a WUM?
I don't post here very often. It's something I'm attempting to rectify!
I just felt I needed to get this off my chest, and doing it now, rather than in times of losing, serves as a reality check and isn't dismissed as an over-reaction to a loss.
Also, I haven't seen us win this season in person, not even on television, and that has annoyed me slightly, for watching the games back as I do isn't the same.
Perhaps you should subscribe to Fulham TV, plenty of recent games you can watch that we have won!! I hate to think what you would have written a couple of months ago when we weren't winning? I do agree with some of your observations though!!
Read what I wrote again. I do subscribe. I listen live and watch all 90 minutes every game, win, lose, or draw. It's just not the same as watching the game live, either in person or on TV.
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 08:52:10 AM
Quote from: davew on January 17, 2018, 08:50:00 AM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 08:11:03 AM
Quote from: MJG on January 17, 2018, 07:55:59 AM
What's sparked this post? You rarely post anything and we are on a decent run of form.
Is it just to have something in place that when we do lose say three on the trot you can post this again?
Don't get me wrong it has a lot of good aspects in it which I could agree and argue with. Its the timing of it I don't get.
Unless like Toshes Mate says you're a WUM?
I don't post here very often. It's something I'm attempting to rectify!
I just felt I needed to get this off my chest, and doing it now, rather than in times of losing, serves as a reality check and isn't dismissed as an over-reaction to a loss.
Also, I haven't seen us win this season in person, not even on television, and that has annoyed me slightly, for watching the games back as I do isn't the same.
Perhaps you should subscribe to Fulham TV, plenty of recent games you can watch that we have won!! I hate to think what you would have written a couple of months ago when we weren't winning? I do agree with some of your observations though!!
Read what I wrote again. I do subscribe. I listen live and watch all 90 minutes every game, win, lose, or draw. It's just not the same as watching the game live, either in person or on TV.
I'm confused by your point then? Maybe you should forewarn the club that you'll be attending so they increase their performance further in your honour.
Also, I haven't seen us win this season in person, not even on television, and that has annoyed me slightly, for watching the games back as I do isn't the same.
[/quote]
So you haven't seen seven of our last ten league games I dought you even support Fulham
Quote from: Ged on January 17, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
So you haven't seen seven of our last ten league games I dought you even support Fulham
Oh, OK, so because I don't live in London (and am only in London for Christmas hence the FA Cup game I went to), and can't afford a season ticket and the travel costs associated with it, I can't be a fan any more? Maybe I should go and support Brighton, because I live there now? That's a ridiculous argument as well you know. I've supported us since I was 7 years old in the days of Cookie. I'm not about to change now.
Edit: let me take the opportunity to clear it up, then. Unfortunately, because of these reasons, I've only seen 3 games in person, and we also have not won a televised game this year (all of which I have seen live).
Quote from: toshes mate on January 17, 2018, 07:50:45 AM
You want my honest and humble opinion? Okay, you are a WUM.
Naughty, but that made me chuckle!
Definitely a WUM - because he posted it when we are doing well.
This is one of those posts where you think "where did that come from?" I agree with parts, disagree with other parts but that's the point of the board. But yes, the timing is a bit odd given we are doing alright at present.
It does though highlight the Madl / Djalo situation again. I'd love to know what Madl said to the Coach to be so comprehensively dismissed from the pack.
And Djalo is all too clearly one that he didn't want. I recall we paid good money for him when he is clearly well short of the standard required which speaks volumes about those selecting and scouting new purchases. Surely there are players in the U23 set up worthy of being blooded on the first team bench with a view to getting experience? I remember Smalling coming on to play 20 minutes beside Hangerland for his debut. Great experience for the lad which I'm positive can be repeated.
Onwards and upwards!
Thoughtful OP, highlights some of our key defensive characteristics. Doesn't lead me to similar conclusions on all the points and not just because we have won four of the last five in the league.
I like KMac dropping in to a back 3, mostly because he's very good at it. I like fullbacks bombing forwards because it creates overloads and excitement. I like the high line because when we play too far back we are horrible. I accept that Spurs showed us up, but put that down to them being a lot better than us in every position. Tom Cairney's good, but he's no Christian Erickson.
For me the really key feature of our defending is how we deliberately split the centrebacks. Fairly unusual in this league.
The Championship is very evenly matched and so tactics can become a game of rock-paper-scissors. The flaws identified can certainly be beaten. But it isn't easy and we win more than we lose. We make mistakes and concede goals. That's football.
There's a couple of things I thoroughly agree with. Letting LVC leave was not our managers best decision. Watching live provides different insight to watching on a screen.
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
I blame the smoking ban.
The smoking ban has caused the demise of pubs.
In the old days, you would have found the grumpy old gits in the corner of pubs, on their own trying to grab the attention of anyone passing by for a piss or at the bar, with their constant negative take on everything. (The government is crap, the opposition is crap, nhs is crap, fags are too expensive, TV is poo, footballers are paid too much money, Fulham are crap, the chairman is crap)
Now all the pubs are closed, these grumpy sods have all come on here
Quote from: BedsFFC on January 17, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
I blame the smoking ban.
The smoking ban has caused the demise of pubs.
In the old days, you would have found the grumpy old gits in the corner of pubs, on their own trying to grab the attention of anyone passing by for a piss or at the bar, with their constant negative take on everything. (The government is crap, the opposition is crap, nhs is crap, fags are too expensive, TV is poo, footballers are paid too much money, Fulham are crap, the chairman is crap)
Now all the pubs are closed, these grumpy sods have all come on here
:005:
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 09:09:56 AM
Quote from: Ged on January 17, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
So you haven't seen seven of our last ten league games I dought you even support Fulham
Oh, OK, so because I don't live in London (and am only in London for Christmas hence the FA Cup game I went to), and can't afford a season ticket and the travel costs associated with it, I can't be a fan any more? Maybe I should go and support Brighton, because I live there now? That's a ridiculous argument as well you know. I've supported us since I was 7 years old in the days of Cookie. I'm not about to change now.
Edit: let me take the opportunity to clear it up, then. Unfortunately, because of these reasons, I've only seen 3 games in person, and we also have not won a televised game this year (all of which I have seen live).
Have you or have you not seen us win? You say you subscribe to Fulham TV, I get that you can't attend in person but surely you have seen us win on TV?
I disagree vehemently with your post which I find ridiculous in the extreme. Our style of play is, at its best, scintillating and never pedestrian. We play it on the ground, no hoofball and try to think about what we are doing.
Joka strikes me as a man who is passionate about his responsibilities at Fuham, hence his outbursts, unlike Jol. And I can excuse those outbursts because he clearly wants the best for our team.
Excluding players? well why not if he feels he has better options? that's his job and it seems to me that a play off place last year and a similar trajectory this year suggests he knows his job very well indeed.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
I think I know what you are saying..... but I'm not sure
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 09:09:56 AM
Quote from: Ged on January 17, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
So you haven't seen seven of our last ten league games I dought you even support Fulham
Oh, OK, so because I don't live in London (and am only in London for Christmas hence the FA Cup game I went to), and can't afford a season ticket and the travel costs associated with it, I can't be a fan any more? Maybe I should go and support Brighton, because I live there now? That's a ridiculous argument as well you know. I've supported us since I was 7 years old in the days of Cookie. I'm not about to change now.
Edit: let me take the opportunity to clear it up, then. Unfortunately, because of these reasons, I've only seen 3 games in person, and we also have not won a televised game this year (all of which I have seen live).
I wasn't questioning whether you can be classed as a fan or not, I am a fan and I haven't watched Fulham at the Cottage for many years! I am wondering how many televised games we have won this season, 1 of our stat's boys on here will provide that information. I didn't realise you were a Fulham TV subscriber, well that's good as you will have seen a lot of our recent wins, some not very pretty but wins are wins!
Quote from: Twig on January 17, 2018, 10:12:00 AM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 09:09:56 AM
Quote from: Ged on January 17, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
So you haven't seen seven of our last ten league games I dought you even support Fulham
Oh, OK, so because I don't live in London (and am only in London for Christmas hence the FA Cup game I went to), and can't afford a season ticket and the travel costs associated with it, I can't be a fan any more? Maybe I should go and support Brighton, because I live there now? That's a ridiculous argument as well you know. I've supported us since I was 7 years old in the days of Cookie. I'm not about to change now.
Edit: let me take the opportunity to clear it up, then. Unfortunately, because of these reasons, I've only seen 3 games in person, and we also have not won a televised game this year (all of which I have seen live).
Have you or have you not seen us win? You say you subscribe to Fulham TV, I get that you can't attend in person but surely you have seen us win on TV?
I disagree vehemently with your post which I find ridiculous in the extreme. Our style of play is, at its best, scintillating and never pedestrian. We play it on the ground, no hoofball and try to think about what we are doing.
Joka strikes me as a man who is passionate about his responsibilities at Fuham, hence his outbursts, unlike Jol. And I can excuse those outbursts because he clearly wants the best for our team.
Excluding players? well why not if he feels he has better options? that's his job and it seems to me that a play off place last year and a similar trajectory this year suggests he knows his job very well indeed.
Well said totally agree, the players that he has let go, are they really better than what we have got in our starting 11 or even back up!
Football now days is not about compassion just because the crowd like certain players, it's about balancing the books in our case to create a better squad!
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
There is actually a term for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect . Basically, one's level of knowledge is related to confidence. With a little bit of knowledge, confidence is high. As one learns more about a subject, even though knowledge is increasing, confidence drops. Essentially you learn more about what you don't know over time.
You see this all the time in physical activities - for example - with a little experience really think they are the dog's knob, when they frankly haven't a clue what they are doing and don't know what they don't know.
Also skills required for many jobs - the more experienced one is, the less confident they are that they know all the answers as they have a better wider understanding.
I can't believe I just posted about the Dunning-Kruger effect in a football forum.
Quote from: Carborundum on January 17, 2018, 10:00:19 AM
Watching live provides different insight to watching on a screen.
It certainly does, watching a game live (which would be every bodies preference) only provides you with a split second analysis whereas TV/Fulham TV allows the viewer with a better opportunity to analyse what really went on. Sadly gone are the days when I am able to watch the lads at the Cottage, but thankful I can listen to GJ every week and watch Fulham TV as well as matches televised on Sky and BT Sports.
Quote from: BedsFFC on January 17, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
I blame the smoking ban.
The smoking ban has caused the demise of pubs.
In the old days, you would have found the grumpy old gits in the corner of pubs, on their own trying to grab the attention of anyone passing by for a piss or at the bar, with their constant negative take on everything. (The government is crap, the opposition is crap, nhs is crap, fags are too expensive, TV is poo, footballers are paid too much money, Fulham are crap, the chairman is crap)
Now all the pubs are closed, these grumpy sods have all come on here
(LOL), I still smoke in the local pub car park though.
Quote from: davew on January 17, 2018, 10:38:29 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on January 17, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
I blame the smoking ban.
The smoking ban has caused the demise of pubs.
In the old days, you would have found the grumpy old gits in the corner of pubs, on their own trying to grab the attention of anyone passing by for a piss or at the bar, with their constant negative take on everything. (The government is crap, the opposition is crap, nhs is crap, fags are too expensive, TV is poo, footballers are paid too much money, Fulham are crap, the chairman is crap)
Now all the pubs are closed, these grumpy sods have all come on here
(LOL), I still smoke in the local pub car park though.
I did truly LOL. Good one
Quote from: bobbo on January 17, 2018, 08:03:05 AM
Ok in my ignorance what does "WUM" mean
It's a shortened version of Will U Marry me
@Brawn
A little more comprehension about your OP has now got the little grey matter I have left a glimpse into your malaise. You are UK based and, therefore, must rely upon Sky (or BBC for FA Cup) to show you live coverage of Fulham's games something they have no reputation for fair coverage of even going back to PL days. Villa are their favourite selection for coverage in the EFL (and also pretty high in PL days) by a country mile. FFCTV does give you highlights and ninety minute playback afterwards but you yearn for the live experience. By my reckoning the journey from Brighton Station to Putney Bridge Station is about seventy minutes long (Brighton-Clapham Junction-Wimbledon-Putney Bridge). A travel card to cover the whole journey would cost about £20. Add the cost of your seat. Really want to enjoy Craven Cottage and Fulham football at its best then save up your money and have a good day out in London too. If FFC win then you get a bonus, and if you don't you can always repeat until they do.
Quote from: BedsFFC on January 17, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
I blame the smoking ban.
The smoking ban has caused the demise of pubs.
In the old days, you would have found the grumpy old gits in the corner of pubs, on their own trying to grab the attention of anyone passing by for a piss or at the bar, with their constant negative take on everything. (The government is crap, the opposition is crap, nhs is crap, fags are too expensive, TV is poo, footballers are paid too much money, Fulham are crap, the chairman is crap)
Now all the pubs are closed, these grumpy sods have all come on here
We have to go somewhere!!
Quote from: Slaphead in Qatar on January 17, 2018, 10:26:20 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
I think I know what you are saying..... but I'm not sure
I was trying to be a bit cryptic (if that's the right word) LOL!
This guy has obviously put some time into his post so to give him the benefit of the doubt I say he's barking up the wrong tree!
We all know the squad has been thin on quality for some time and the Head Coach has developed a strategy to cover the weakness's and maximise the strengths, its not perfect but I see a plan.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 11:08:07 AM
Quote from: Slaphead in Qatar on January 17, 2018, 10:26:20 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
I think I know what you are saying..... but I'm not sure
I was trying to be a bit cryptic (if that's the right word) LOL!
This guy has obviously put some time into his post so to give him the benefit of the doubt I say he's barking up the wrong tree!
We all know the squad has been thin on quality for some time and the Head Coach has developed a strategy to cover the weakness's and maximise the strengths, its not perfect but I see a plan.
I think Slav is very good - hope he sticks around
I believe Jok has had his hands tied with the recruitment, and therefore some players are not his choice, and he has been undermined by this recruitment policy the club has which clearly does not work, and occasionally his frustration boils over and he relays it in the odd interview, but then who wouldn't be, no wonder he doesn't feel like smiling.
He was probably made aware of how they operate, but nevertheless he may have not realised what a Control freak Kline was, and the lack of experience of the Chairman's son, and the amateurish way they operate culminating in an overal penny pinching recruitment washout in the transfer windows, which is made even more frustrating as we probably have much better prospects in our Academy who could step up, as opposed to recruiting dead wood and rejects from places far away, that has never made any sense to me.
On the other side of the coin is the fact that on occasions his team selections in the past have not met the full approval of many on here, and I can understand that, as sometimes his game management. Not forgetting his limited command of the English language, which may or may not effect team talks before and at half time.
But all that is small fry if we consider the wider picture. The Football we are watching is being admired in most camps.
Yes of course we need a CB a LB and a Striker asap, and I would like to see more of gritty and physical edge to our game and system of play, as this Division can be a graveyard for teams with a soft underbelly. But our football can be sublime, coupled with the little unbeaten run we have started and only a point behind the play offs makes me feel he must be doing something right.
Yes he may be a little stubborn, but nobodies perfect, and let's face it, put yourself in his place having to work with these amateurs, where is their support behind the scenes for our Manager, ARE THEY LISTENING TO HIM, or are they so busy with that daft game with crash helmets, that Fulham FC are just an after thought.
It's plainly obvious that we need three outfield positions strengthing properly big time. If that fails to happen by the end of this month, then we know who to blame if the wheels come off, and it isn't Jok.
At the end of the day, the grass is not always greener on the other side, and who is out there available who you could guarantee is better than Jok, assuming they would want to come and work under this regime anyway. Yes Kline has been removed, but there were others that should have followed him.
Quote from: Slaphead in Qatar on January 17, 2018, 11:27:12 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 11:08:07 AM
Quote from: Slaphead in Qatar on January 17, 2018, 10:26:20 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
I think I know what you are saying..... but I'm not sure
I was trying to be a bit cryptic (if that's the right word) LOL!
This guy has obviously put some time into his post so to give him the benefit of the doubt I say he's barking up the wrong tree!
We all know the squad has been thin on quality for some time and the Head Coach has developed a strategy to cover the weakness's and maximise the strengths, its not perfect but I see a plan.
I think Slav is very good - hope he sticks around
Agree. The question was what do we think of him now? Well, with the benefit of seeing his teams play the past couple of seasons my opinion is higher than when he came in - I was optimistic then, based on his reputation, and have now seen Fulham playing the best football (on occasions) since the Tigana days. Simple as that but I suspect the question went deeper. He clearly has difficulties over recruitment and is perhaps a bit bloody-minded over not playing certain players whom he did not personally select. On the other hand, his reputation depends on results so I can understand why he takes the stand he's reported to. As Slaphead said, he seems to be skilled in plugging the gaps.
,
Quote from: flyingfish on January 17, 2018, 10:36:39 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
There is actually a term for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect . Basically, one's level of knowledge is related to confidence. With a little bit of knowledge, confidence is high. As one learns more about a subject, even though knowledge is increasing, confidence drops. Essentially you learn more about what you don't know over time.
You see this all the time in physical activities - for example - with a little experience really think they are the dog's knob, when they frankly haven't a clue what they are doing and don't know what they don't know.
Also skills required for many jobs - the more experienced one is, the less confident they are that they know all the answers as they have a better wider understanding.
I can't believe I just posted about the Dunning-Kruger effect in a football forum.
I was talking to a couple of mates the other day and one used the DK effect to explain something, while no academic myself I found it an interesting subject.
In the case of this OP my view is he's putting forward his argument confidently but its based on his incorrect assessment !
I don't know enough about DK to say this is a classic case (possibly not) but thought some of the phrases my mate used where appropriate.
Quote from: toshes mate on January 17, 2018, 11:03:23 AMBy my reckoning the journey from Brighton Station to Putney Bridge Station is about seventy minutes long (Brighton-Clapham Junction-Wimbledon-Putney Bridge). A travel card to cover the whole journey would cost about £20. Add the cost of your seat. Really want to enjoy Craven Cottage and Fulham football at its best then save up your money and have a good day out in London too. If FFC win then you get a bonus, and if you don't you can always repeat until they do.
I prefer Brighton-Victoria-Hammersmith. Not all trains stop at Clapham Junction. Additionally think how much that costs for the entire season, and I'd rather spend that money (and I suspect this won't wash well) on cricket. In fact, I do: my season ticket for Surrey is a fraction of what it would cost for Fulham. I think that's a different issue altogether. I can't do Saturday as I've got prior committments. And after that, I'm moving back to Brighton.
Whilst I can't remember exactly how many games I've been to per season, I was making about 10-15 before moving to Brighton.
Jokanovic is coach and his style is possession football. Lots of opposition managers seem to have been able to counter this style this season, and has left us with slow build up of possession leading to facing packed defences who we can't break down and there is no end product for the amount of possession. Our defence is still vulnerable to counter attacks.
Of the 8 defenders in the squad Jokanovic has only really used 5 in the 4 positions leaving Soares, Madl & Djalo out of the squad.
Of the 8 midfielders in the squad he has only played really 5 leaving out Cisse, Mollo & Graham.
He's tried to use various players as forwards, none out of the present 5 would you class as a main striker more attacking midfield.
Was that the requirement of Jokanovic.
Except for Sessegnon he really hasn't taken a gamble on bringing through the younger players who's form has been better than the players brought in during the summer.
Also during the time Jokanovic has been coach we have lost a lot of good younger players (whether this is his fault I don't know) who could potentially have been far better than the players brought in, but he hasn't used them often in this or previous seasons.
I think there is a difference in the situation of Jol & Jokanovic.
Jokanovic is a Head Coach and only has a say in the type of player he wants and what position, I don't think there are many if any players he has brought to the club through his reputation or contacts.
On the other hand Jol was the manager, he had some say in which players were brought into the club. It's documented by Berbatov that he came to Fulham because of Jol. There are others (some good some bad) who we got because of Jol's reputation and contacts. One we didn't get was Gignac who said he really wanted to sign for Jol, (the signing fell through because Marseilles didn't get his replacement in on dead line day) Gignac even had his agent searching for a replacement.
Well anyone posting anti Jocanovic thoughts right now is up against it. For some reason Jocanovic realised a lot of support on this board immediately he replaced Kit and most of the fans stood by him through times when results and performances were poor and no better than Kit's.
For most of the time he has been with us I have been sitting on the fence waiting for good results to take us into a promotion challenge . Of course in the second half of last season I just had to come down into Jocanovic's side as the football and results were magnificent. However, this season with some poor performances, questionable tactics and selections I have been back up on the fence.
It looks as if we may have turned a corner and there is hope of another top six placing so I am holding off any judgement on Jocanovic until the end of the season.
Cannot accept any comparison between Jol and Jocanovic, they are so different.
Jocanovic has been with us two years now, it would be interesting to see his points per game record compared to Jol, Kit and Roy.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 12:05:40 PM
Quote from: flyingfish on January 17, 2018, 10:36:39 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on January 17, 2018, 10:03:02 AM
Its not in our human nature to imagine we are wrong but boy, this poster thinks he knows something, although he knows nothing!
I've learnt enough about Football to know I don't know it all, while this guy knows just enough to think he knows what he's talking about!
There is actually a term for this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect . Basically, one's level of knowledge is related to confidence. With a little bit of knowledge, confidence is high. As one learns more about a subject, even though knowledge is increasing, confidence drops. Essentially you learn more about what you don't know over time.
You see this all the time in physical activities - for example - with a little experience really think they are the dog's knob, when they frankly haven't a clue what they are doing and don't know what they don't know.
Also skills required for many jobs - the more experienced one is, the less confident they are that they know all the answers as they have a better wider understanding.
I can't believe I just posted about the Dunning-Kruger effect in a football forum.
I was talking to a couple of mates the other day and one used the DK effect to explain something, while no academic myself I found it an interesting subject.
In the case of this OP my view is he's putting forward his argument confidently but its based on his incorrect assessment !
I don't know enough about DK to say this is a classic case (possibly not) but thought some of the phrases my mate used where appropriate.
Ah ha! What you are experiencing here is the Baader-Meinhof effect!
Quote from: filham on January 17, 2018, 12:13:22 PMJo[k]anovic has been with us two years now, it would be interesting to see his points per game record compared to Jol, Kit and Roy.
Ask and you shall get!
Including cup competitions and play-off games:
S Jokanovic: P108 W45 D30 L33 - PPG 1.53
K Symons: P64 W22 D17 L25 - PPG 1.30
M Jol: P113 W38 D28 L47 - PPG 1.26
R Hodgson: P128 W50 D32 L46 - PPG 1.42
I believe Slav is being carried by the players. Let's not forget he did worse than Kit with Kit's players in 2015-16.
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: filham on January 17, 2018, 12:13:22 PMJo[k]anovic has been with us two years now, it would be interesting to see his points per game record compared to Jol, Kit and Roy.
Ask and you shall get!
Including cup competitions and play-off games:
S Jokanovic: P108 W45 D30 L33 - PPG 1.53
K Symons: P64 W22 D17 L25 - PPG 1.30
M Jol: P113 W38 D28 L47 - PPG 1.26
R Hodgson: P128 W50 D32 L46 - PPG 1.42
I believe Slav is being carried by the players. Let's not forget he did worse than Kit with Kit's players in 2015-16.
Interesting. I'd expect Fulham to achieve a higher PPG in "Div 2" than "Div 1" , given the club's resources compared to others in that division so RH comes out of this very well, along with SJ.
It would be interesting to know Tigana's stats, if you have them, Mr. Brawn!
J Tigana: P145 W67 D37 L41 - PPG 1.64
I have taken out cup (and playoff games) and here are the league only figures
Hodgson P95 - 121Pts 1.27
Hughes P38 - 49 Pts 1.28
Jol P89 - 105 Pts 1.17
Symons P55 - 71 Pts 1.29
Joka P95 - 146 Pts 1.53
First of all our Coach has been very successful for half a season at Fulham. He took the team with the aid of the stats supported transfer policy to the play offs. But the problems we had during the season and have had since haven't changed. Lack of firepower since the loss of Dembele and Ross and very average defenders and keeper. His tactics HAVE changed but we are always vulnerable to the same type of opposition and type of long ball and pass and crosses. My thoughts on Slav haven't changed. I think he has improved the tactics and has done well but is massively overrated by many.
Jol on the other hand was overrated from day one. He was overrated at Spuds and at Fulham, he never made me confident in his ability.
Quote from: MJG on January 17, 2018, 12:43:48 PM
I have taken out cup (and playoff games) and here are the league only figures
Hodgson P95 - 121Pts 1.27
Hughes P38 - 49 Pts 1.28
Jol P89 - 105 Pts 1.17
Symons P55 - 71 Pts 1.29
Joka P95 - 146 Pts 1.53
That agrees with "gut feel" and RH's figure is affected by state of the team at the time he came in, Hughes inherited better. I expect Tigana would still top the list though.
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 17, 2018, 01:02:38 PM
First of all our Coach has been very successful for half a season at Fulham. He took the team with the aid of the stats supported transfer policy to the play offs. But the problems we had during the season and have had since haven't changed. Lack of firepower since the loss of Dembele and Ross and very average defenders and keeper. His tactics HAVE changed but we are always vulnerable to the same type of opposition and type of long ball and pass and crosses. My thoughts on Slav haven't changed. I think he has improved the tactics and has done well but is massively overrated by many.
Jol on the other hand was overrated from day one. He was overrated at Spuds and at Fulham, he never made me confident in his ability.
He wasn't the same without Hughton.
This is a laughable post. Slav has done a great job under difficult circumstances. I've not always agreed with some of his selections and exclusions but the fact is we're still in the run for play offs, which is what we were aiming for.
Jokanovic plays a very risky form of football. The flying wingback/fullbacks leave horrendous gaps at the back and put tremendous pressure on our centre backs. As a result, our centre backs either appear to be saviours or lightweights. They need speed, positional sense, excellent recovery abilities and then because we like to play out from the back, also be good in possession. We have been very lucky in maintaining a healthy Kalas/Ream partnership, as over the long-term Odoi/Djalo/Madl would have been found out. I would love a new central defender to improve what we have, but actually believe that we have to stick with our favoured two for the remainder of the season as they know the system and have adapted to it quickest. This is, however, the key to our team set-up working.
The next thing that has to happen, is that we have to scare the opposition. We have to encourage the opposition to play defensive minded football, as our fullbacks are defensively weaker than we would hope. This allows our fullbacks to play further up the field and be on the front foot.
Overall, when our system works and when teams allow us to play our game, we are likely to win and potentially comfortably. However, the risks from good counterattacking teams are evident. Overall I like the fact that Jokanovic likes us to be attack-minded and I am willing to accept that it won't always work and when that happens I am happy enough not to demand Jokanovic's head. Imagine Tony Pullis with this team and thank our lucky stars.
I have been supporting for 65 years and he is on the list of managers who I feel content with. There have been many who I have not been! One thing is that we now win a lot of away games and we never used to.
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Quote from: F(f)CUK on January 17, 2018, 01:11:04 PM
Jokanovic plays a very risky form of football.
Strangely enough I think the style SJ plays is intended to be low risk football. High risk is low possession leading to high percentage yield from fewer chances. SJ's strategy, at its best, yields high possession and high chance of outscoring opponents. The key is always converting possession to chances you score from in either form. Therefore the higher the possession the more chances and the more goals scored. We have yet to see it at its best simply because inappropriate choices about recruitment and sale have made life more awkward for our coach than it needed to be. It defies belief that he is unable to exercise a power of veto over both sales and incoming transfers that at least says you cannot sell without sensibly replacing first. He has no such power of veto either way.
I think this is going to just turn into a tactical debate. Counter-attack versus high possession. At the end of the day, it's all about how he's using each player in the positions to their full potential.
As long as he never puts Johansen in the false-9 again, we should be okay :) .
Quote from: Stefan The Viking (The Moose) on January 17, 2018, 01:05:29 PM
This is a laughable post. Slav has done a great job under difficult circumstances. I've not always agreed with some of his selections and exclusions but the fact is we're still in the run for play offs, which is what we were aiming for.
No , this is a good post and covers the most important aspect of Fulham's prospects this season, that is Jocanovic. He is interesting and very different to our previous managers.
The stats given above show that he could be on the verge of producing a great team and have now made me feel more confident about him. If we can get the three players he needs in this window then another top six finish is possible.
Quote from: filham on January 17, 2018, 02:09:17 PM
The stats given above show that he could be on the verge of producing a great team and have now made me feel more confident about him. If we can get the three players he needs in this window then another top six finish is possible.
Mmm, you need stats to help you? You haven't been at the kline cakes have you? :-)
It's all about stats of course, one particular stat-ie league table finishing places.
Last year Slav got us into the top 6, when it didn't seem that likely until almost halfway through the season, and this year he's overseen an upturn in our performances and results, adversely affected earlier in the season by injuries and new players finding it hard to adapt, which once again sees us with a chance of getting into the top six.
If we get into the top 6 again that will surely be seen as great achievement, let alone if we actually go up, but let's see how this season pans out, and then judge our manager.
A couple of things:
1) "There's no risk attached to our passing. It's backwards and sideways rubbish. But it seems to be getting results." Well, that in itself suggests it's not always "sideways or rubbish." And there have been some excellent games, away to Cardiff being the best example.
2) "The defending is increasingly haphazard too." Er, 8 goals conceded in the last 8 games, increasingly haphazard? I think not.
Sorry, but I thought a lot of this post is simply misinformed at best, plain wrong in other regards. This may well be because you haven't seen enough of us this year. We have had a problem in the final third, I think that's true, and consequently our possession does not always lead to the number of goals we would hope for, but I am not sure that Joka is totally responsible for that - I don't know the extent to which signings have or haven't been made at his behest.
Quote from: bog on January 17, 2018, 01:20:24 PM
I have been supporting for 65 years and he is on the list of managers who I feel content with. There have been many who I have not been! One thing is that we now win a lot of away games and we never used to.
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+ 1
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM
A couple of things:
1) "There's no risk attached to our passing. It's backwards and sideways rubbish. But it seems to be getting results." Well, that in itself suggests it's not always "sideways or rubbish." And there have been some excellent games, away to Cardiff being the best example.
The whole point of my post is that results aren't everything for me, much like Martin Jol.
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM2) "The defending is increasingly haphazard too." Er, 8 goals conceded in the last 8 games, increasingly haphazard? I think not.
This is exactly the same argument I used to defend Dan Burn for two years. Statistically, we conceded fewer goals per 90 minutes when he played vs when he didn't. The problem with this is that now, older and wiser, I realise that it's perhaps more the entries into the box and shots conceded that are more important. Defending is not the same as goalkeeping: one could concede 100 shots in a match and keep a clean sheet with Bettinelli saving all of them, but that doesn't make the defence good.
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PMSorry, but I thought a lot of this post is simply misinformed at best, plain wrong in other regards. This may well be because you haven't seen enough of us this year. We have had a problem in the final third, I think that's true, and consequently our possession does not always lead to the number of goals we would hope for, but I am not sure that Joka is totally responsible for that - I don't know the extent to which signings have or haven't been made at his behest.
But as a head coach, isn't it Jokanovic's responsibility to get the best out of the players and instruct them what to do? The argument you're presenting is the current bunch of attackers are incapable of entering the box and shooting. Perhaps it's a moot point, but I think the "walk it in" mentality is coming from Slav, not from the players.
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 04:24:44 PM
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM
A couple of things:
1) "There's no risk attached to our passing. It's backwards and sideways rubbish. But it seems to be getting results." Well, that in itself suggests it's not always "sideways or rubbish." And there have been some excellent games, away to Cardiff being the best example.
The whole point of my post is that results aren't everything for me, much like Martin Jol.
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PM2) "The defending is increasingly haphazard too." Er, 8 goals conceded in the last 8 games, increasingly haphazard? I think not.
This is exactly the same argument I used to defend Dan Burn for two years. Statistically, we conceded fewer goals per 90 minutes when he played vs when he didn't. The problem with this is that now, older and wiser, I realise that it's perhaps more the entries into the box and shots conceded that are more important. Defending is not the same as goalkeeping: one could concede 100 shots in a match and keep a clean sheet with Bettinelli saving all of them, but that doesn't make the defence good.
Quote from: Whitesideup on January 17, 2018, 03:22:33 PMSorry, but I thought a lot of this post is simply misinformed at best, plain wrong in other regards. This may well be because you haven't seen enough of us this year. We have had a problem in the final third, I think that's true, and consequently our possession does not always lead to the number of goals we would hope for, but I am not sure that Joka is totally responsible for that - I don't know the extent to which signings have or haven't been made at his behest.
But as a head coach, isn't it Jokanovic's responsibility to get the best out of the players and instruct them what to do? The argument you're presenting is the current bunch of attackers are incapable of entering the box and shooting. Perhaps it's a moot point, but I think the "walk it in" mentality is coming from Slav, not from the players.
At the bottom line results are everything -
Q-Where is the team/manager who only gets bad results, however nice the football they play?
A- Relegated, manager sacked.
Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 12:25:29 PM
I believe Slav is being carried by the players. Let's not forget he did worse than Kit with Kit's players in 2015-16.
Ok so firstly, Bettinelli, Ream, Fredericks, Cairney... you though all these players looked as good under Symons as they do now, did you?
Yes, no, yes, yes. If anything, I think Betts looked better than he does now.
Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PMSecondly, every manager should get a window and a chance to bring in new players. Hodgson had that and he built a good team. Symons had 2 windows and we were still crap. Jokanovic is comparable to Hodgson. Do we complain that Hodgson was "carried" by his own players, Hangeland and Zamora?
Firstly, I wouldn't call 12th place at the time of Kit's sacking crap.
Secondly, of course not. Hodgson and Kit did well with players that weren't theirs - Roy gave us the great escape with Sanchez's squad, and Kit took us out of that omnishambolic start with Magath's players.
Kit Symons's affection for Fulham shone through and is clearly still alive and worthy of mention whenever we talk about him. My measure is that since leaving Fulham he has held assistant roles under Chris Coleman, and clearly, in my opinion, that is his level. He is an exceptional assistant. My one criticism of him is that he couldn't, at Fulham, get to the next stage of ambition - success on the field and off it. I suspect Fulham would have been mid-table forever. At least under SJ you get the overwhelming sense that his belief in success is real and tangible no matter how you deal the cards to him. He is a hard working professional who awkwardly balances a life in England with his family in Spain. He has a plan and he is confident it'll work; only time and obstructions beyond his control will beat or defeat him. He knows what is required of him and has the will of his coaching staff to produce. I can only imagine what he would do with a first rate upper echelon behind him all the way.
Weirdly, the team who play "backwards and sideways rubbish" were the divisions top scorers last season and 4th highest this season...
Don't think I'll be waving my "JOKA OUT" placard too furiously just yet thanks.
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 04:42:25 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PM
Quote from: Brawn on January 17, 2018, 12:25:29 PM
I believe Slav is being carried by the players. Let's not forget he did worse than Kit with Kit's players in 2015-16.
Ok so firstly, Bettinelli, Ream, Fredericks, Cairney... you though all these players looked as good under Symons as they do now, did you?
Yes, no, yes, yes. If anything, I think Betts looked better than he does now.
Quote from: Statto on January 17, 2018, 04:20:42 PMSecondly, every manager should get a window and a chance to bring in new players. Hodgson had that and he built a good team. Symons had 2 windows and we were still crap. Jokanovic is comparable to Hodgson. Do we complain that Hodgson was "carried" by his own players, Hangeland and Zamora?
Firstly, I wouldn't call 12th place at the time of Kit's sacking crap.
Secondly, of course not. Hodgson and Kit did well with players that weren't theirs - Roy gave us the great escape with Sanchez's squad, and Kit took us out of that omnishambolic start with Magath's players.
Seem to be reaching for reasons to dislike the man from reading the thread. fair enough if you're simply not a fan of his style and persona, I can understand that.
But to go as far as making the statements above... Bettinelli was very young and raw when Symons was in charge, Ream looked poor, Fredericks was a headless chicken going forward and his defending is now much improved and Cairney has played BY FAR his best football under Slav. And on Kit, he did great considering where we were when he took over, but it became clear that he'd hit a ceiling!
One has to wonder whether Brawn would rate Slav higher if he was British and named Sam rather than Slav?
Thank you to toshes mate.----- bobbo
What do I really think of Slav ? Simple -an excellent coach who not only gets results but is also able to turn average players into decent, can unlike many other trainers coach an amazing brand of attacking football, and is not scared of playing with his best team even it means upsetting people.Add to that his abillity to convince our best players to stay at the club, as well as his willingness to both try and play very young talented players and what do you have ? Simply put ,one of the best coaches we have ever had, where IMO only Tiganas side played the sort of football that can compare with what we saw from the team last season.
He has one fault and that is that he doesnt seem to suffer fools gladly. So If i was you Brawn I wouldnt be sending him a copy of your summary any time soon !!
Quote from: colinwhite on January 17, 2018, 08:17:18 PM
What do I really think of Slav ? Simple -an excellent coach who not only gets results but is also able to turn average players into decent, can unlike many other trainers coach an amazing brand of attacking football, and is not scared of playing with his best team even it means upsetting people.Add to that his abillity to convince our best players to stay at the club, as well as his willingness to both try and play very young talented playersand what do you have ? Simply put ,one of the best coaches we have ever had, where IMO only Tiganas side played the sort of football that we saw last season.
He has one fault and that he doesnt seem to suffer fools gladly. So If i was you Brawn I wouldnt be sending him a copy of your summary any time soon Brawn !!
This. Good post.
We've arguably had a worse team this year and in the next couple of games could be in a far better position than we were in last year, despite A) having loads of injuries B) losing as mentioned key players and C) only really starting to get results since November...
For me the style we play in, the fact players enjoy playing for us - sin new contracts and come back for second loans is largely due to the fact we have slavisa here..
My only frustration is that I don't think the club are supporting him properly in the transfer window and the clubs general approach to transfers (with statisticians etc) leaves a lot to be desired. Slav clearly believes he knows what he needs, the type of player he'd work well with and how to move us up a gear.. and seeing as khan's got money but is just using it poorly it's frustrating.
Quote from: davew on January 17, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
Quote from: bog on January 17, 2018, 01:20:24 PM
I have been supporting for 65 years and he is on the list of managers who I feel content with. There have been many who I have not been! One thing is that we now win a lot of away games and we never used to.
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+ 1
+1 up there with Jean Tigana and Roy Hodgson in that regard and results in my time as a fan.. few have compared more favourably
Thank you Brawn. Your totally daft post sparked a great and reasoned response. I think the Barmy Army may have a couple of vacancies .. I suggest you apply. Whatever we think of the post, it certainly wasn't boring!
Also, for perspective slavisa has a 41% win ratio, which is similar to that of David moyes at Everton... which at the time was consistently top 7 in the premiership at the time. If he gets supported financially for players and replicates his former for the premiership noone here would complain.
I wonder how that stats stacks up against fulham managers full stop.
I think all in all, so far Jok is a pretty good egg.
We are all entitled to our opinion but in my opinion SJ is our best manager since Tigana, we play fast attractive football, we are just outside the play off positions and stringing together a series of good results.
Clubs are queueing up for a number of our players and I firmly believe no one wants to play us with the style of football we play. Should we be so stupid as to get rid of him he will not be out of work for long.
The silliest thread on here for a while.
All Brawn and no brain.
Quote from: The Old Count on January 18, 2018, 10:39:48 AM
The silliest thread on here for a while.
All Brawn and no brain.
Succinctly put.
Why a silly thread? It has highlighted the fact that some think he is an amazing manager and the best since Tigana. While others differ in varying degrees. I think it has been interesting. Shows how, with no evidence at all, we either make heroes of very average performers or villains out of very average performers. Fascinating.
I do like the statement that "Slav is being carried by the players". Isn't that what should happen?
To a large extent Managers are only as good as the players they have under them.
He clearly is not being supported by the club in obtaining the players he thinks he needs, hence the reason why if we don't make the promised land this year, he will go, and the club will be shooting itself in the foot if that happened.
One of the few concerns I have is that I am not sure Jok can attract players the way some managers can, and I am not talking about financial inducements.
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 18, 2018, 12:09:50 PM
Why a silly thread? It has highlighted the fact that some think he is an amazing manager and the best since Tigana. While others differ in varying degrees. I think it has been interesting. Shows how, with no evidence at all, we either make heroes of very average performers or villains out of very average performers. Fascinating.
Agree with you. This has been a brilliant thread, not least because brawn is such a good sport, with some patient responses to the unfurling discourse whilst choosing not to dignify other aspects. If a newcomer wanted to get a good idea what this board is like, perhaps this would be the ideal thread to gauge how things are.
All I know is that difference of view and difference in many other respects is a fact of life. How one reacts to difference defines a person like practically nothing else.
Quote from: Carborundum on January 18, 2018, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 18, 2018, 12:09:50 PM
Why a silly thread? It has highlighted the fact that some think he is an amazing manager and the best since Tigana. While others differ in varying degrees. I think it has been interesting. Shows how, with no evidence at all, we either make heroes of very average performers or villains out of very average performers. Fascinating.
Agree with you. This has been a brilliant thread, not least because brawn is such a good sport, with some patient responses to the unfurling discourse whilst choosing not to dignify other aspects. If a newcomer wanted to get a good idea what this board is like, perhaps this would be the ideal thread to gauge how things are.
All I know is that difference of view and difference in many other respects is a fact of life. How one reacts to difference defines a person like practically nothing else.
You have taken the words right out of my mouth.
Quote from: Southcoastffc on January 18, 2018, 12:48:25 PM
I do like the statement that "Slav is being carried by the players". Isn't that what should happen?
Only when we win a trophy!
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 18, 2018, 12:09:50 PM
Why a silly thread? It has highlighted the fact that some think he is an amazing manager and the best since Tigana. While others differ in varying degrees. I think it has been interesting. Shows how, with no evidence at all, we either make heroes of very average performers or villains out of very average performers. Fascinating.
What! The manager that got us to the playoffs despite being hampered in his choices of players, who could have walked but chose to stay, who has started to get us on a run that may lead to promotion despite still being hampered by transfer policy, who has more to do with Sess and Cairney staying here than is credited, who has had us playing the best in years.
What does Brawn suggest - we sack him? Rowett and Birmingham spring to mind. That's why I think it's silly.
Yes Slav is not a perfect manager but not many are. I for one would rather he stays.
Actually Brawn The old un has a point. You makes lots of criticism but what are you actually getting off your chest? You surely arent suggesting that Jokanovic should be sacked ?
We all get frustrated but that tends to go away when we start playing some great football ,go on a fantastic run and even start grinding out smash and grabs! So what was the point of your post ? Just curious.
Initial thoughts = Burn and Grimmer both no where near good enough for a top 6 champ club, Why would they sign new deals just to be loaned out again ? Also Kalas and Ream are two of the fastest CBs in the league. Selling Adeniran was probably not his decision and LVC was no where near our first team squad so probably wanted to leave.
I'm a big Slavisa fan.
Lastly agree with this post about Jol from Gloucester White -- Martin Jol's transfer policy was not to recruit 'ageing plodders', he wasn't given the money and every interview he gave he was saying the club should invest in younger players. His team were playing well until his best players were sold and replaced by donkeys.
How is this still a thing
Jokanovic will get rid of some more players, he didn't want to have, this January window.
Jokanovic won't get any addition to his squad this January window. Maybe another winger?!
Jokanovic will get us promoted.
Jokanovic will be master of efficiency!
COYW!
Right, let me reply to a few points as I've not had the time over the last couple of days:
Quote from: Carborundum on January 18, 2018, 01:34:11 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on January 18, 2018, 12:09:50 PM
Why a silly thread? It has highlighted the fact that some think he is an amazing manager and the best since Tigana. While others differ in varying degrees. I think it has been interesting. Shows how, with no evidence at all, we either make heroes of very average performers or villains out of very average performers. Fascinating.
Agree with you. This has been a brilliant thread, not least because brawn is such a good sport, with some patient responses to the unfurling discourse whilst choosing not to dignify other aspects. If a newcomer wanted to get a good idea what this board is like, perhaps this would be the ideal thread to gauge how things are.
All I know is that difference of view and difference in many other respects is a fact of life. How one reacts to difference defines a person like practically nothing else.
I particularly agree with the last sentence here. If we all agreed on everything there wouldn't be much point of a forum!
Quote from: @jolslover on January 18, 2018, 08:36:21 PM
Initial thoughts = Burn and Grimmer both no where near good enough for a top 6 champ club, Why would they sign new deals just to be loaned out again ? Also Kalas and Ream are two of the fastest CBs in the league. Selling Adeniran was probably not his decision and LVC was no where near our first team squad so probably wanted to leave.
I'm a big Slavisa fan.
Lastly agree with this post about Jol from Gloucester White -- Martin Jol's transfer policy was not to recruit 'ageing plodders', he wasn't given the money and every interview he gave he was saying the club should invest in younger players. His team were playing well until his best players were sold and replaced by donkeys.
To repeat what I said earlier, the fact that we've had/got players such as Sessegnon and Roberts - played who are playing at such a great standard at such a young age - has led people to forget that players like Burn and Grimmer weren't exactly old. A defender peaks in their career in their late 20s, I would say, possibly even their early 30s, and Burn is (still) some years off that yet. I would have kept Burn if he wanted to stay; a loan move out to a Championship or L1 club if need be (remember he did win promotion from L1 with Yeovil and might do it again with Wigan), but such is our lack of depth at the present moment at centre back, we're starting to miss him. The mere fact that Dan Burn's performances was such a topic of contention for a player who was only 23 years old at the time of his departure shows, I think, that he has promise, because some of us (and indeed, Rene and Kit) could see it. With regard to Grimmer, I can't think of any glaring errors. He was definitely better than Zverotic despite being 19. I think he's another lost opportunity. I felt Burn's performances in 2015-16 were well above Tim Ream's, so it's good to see Ream having come on so strongly recently.
To that extent, Sean Kavanagh needs another 2 or 3 years before we decide what to do with him. If he can't be a second-choice player by the age of 25, then, yes, let go of him.
I don't think Slavisa should be sacked right now. I've accepted that. Like Martin Jol, I just don't like him for the reasons I stated in the OP. A failure to finish in the top 6, however, and I think it would be time to let him go; he'd have had a good innings after all.
Anything else?
In General I like and want to keep him.Having said that his stubbornness in not giving certain players a chance doesdo him any favours.
Quote from: Brawn on January 20, 2018, 05:47:12 AM
I don't think Slavisa should be sacked right now. I've accepted that. Like Martin Jol, I just don't like him for the reasons I stated in the OP. A failure to finish in the top 6, however, and I think it would be time to let him go; he'd have had a good innings after all.
Anything else?
Just a couple of things.
Are you saying you'd be happy for Slavisa to stay if we finish in a playoff spot but fail to win promotion? (I would be happy for him to stay in this situation)
Is it hard watching Fulham win with a Head Coach in place whom you don't like? Does it take away some of the pleasure of Fulham winning?
Quote from: EastEndWhite on January 20, 2018, 10:32:48 AM
Quote from: Brawn on January 20, 2018, 05:47:12 AM
I don't think Slavisa should be sacked right now. I've accepted that. Like Martin Jol, I just don't like him for the reasons I stated in the OP. A failure to finish in the top 6, however, and I think it would be time to let him go; he'd have had a good innings after all.
Anything else?
Just a couple of things.
Are you saying you'd be happy for Slavisa to stay if we finish in a playoff spot but fail to win promotion? (I would be happy for him to stay in this situation)
Is it hard watching Fulham win with a Head Coach in place whom you don't like? Does it take away some of the pleasure of Fulham winning?
I'm not "happy" for Slav to stay at all, I'm merely resigned to the fact he is here, and so I'm basically putting up with it for now. If we don't make the playoffs, then I will call for his head.
No, it's not "hard" to see us win. I never want to see us lose, even if I despise the manager. I've had to watch some appalling performances under Sanchez, Jol, Magath, and now Slav (all of whom I basically hated from game 1). To paraphrase Thatcher, I make up my mind about managers and players within about 10 seconds, and very rarely do I change it. I've had three Fulham players who I've hated and then grown to like, but it took forever: Chris Baird (only really liked him in his final days with the club); Zoltan Gera (couldn't stand the bloke until the Europa semi); Tim Ream (although I'm still not completely sold on him).
How can you dislike people you've presumably never even met.
All I care about is performance on the pitch, or the team's performance in the case of a manager.
Slavisa will be judged on results, like all managers, not on whether or not he smiled much.
Quote from: RaySmith on January 20, 2018, 11:13:49 AM
How can you dislike people you've presumably never even met.
All I care about is performance on the pitch, or the team's performance in the case of a manager.
Slavisa will be judged on results, like all managers, not on whether or not he smiled much.
+ 1
I didn't say I dislike Slav as a person. I dislike Slav as a manager.
Quote from: Brawn on January 20, 2018, 11:22:49 AM
I didn't say I dislike Slav as a person. I dislike Slav as a manager.
SJ 'manages' people just as we all do even when we are not titular 'managers', if you can understand my clumsy use of words.
You opened up an interesting thread but, even when offered chances, you haven't, in my humble opinion, chosen to 'open up' and explain your reasoning. Indeed, in using the Thatcher 'paraphrase' you seem to be trying to commend yourself with having good judgement and yet 'psychologically' all humans make rapid intuitive and largely subliminal pictures of others available to themselves on meeting any one for the first time. The information you picture in your head depends a great deal on 'your own state of mind at that instant of time' for its accuracy, imagery and usefulness. Women tend to be much better with this than men (note the word 'tend').
I don't know if you ever met Thatcher but. if you had, what do you suspect you may have thought of her? No response required just a thought.
I have enjoyed this thread and so thank you for starting it.
I thought that his handling of the Chris Martin situation last season would've endeared him to even fans like you Brawn?
great head coach ,not perfect perhaps but one of the best we have ever had.
Another spell like the last six matches and he will be assuming Greek God status.
I've said it before, the style of football he has been cultivating can be scintillating, the most enjoyable to watch since the Tigana days. It can be a bit cerebral and lacking in blood and thunder but none the worse for that. Of course it doesn't always come off, and yes we had a slow start to the season (for several reasons), but I totally buy into what SJ is trying to do and that is why I cannot fathom the OP.
Quote from: Brawn on January 20, 2018, 05:47:12 AM
To that extent, Sean Kavanagh needs another 2 or 3 years before we decide what to do with him. If he can't be a second-choice player by the age of 25, then, yes, let go of him.
Blimey, if the Club retained every player coming through our Academy to the age of 25 before deciding whether they're good enough, we'd end up with a squad of more than a hundred players and a wage bill to bankrupt even our owner!
