We were winning 1-0 and completely had all the play and impetus when Slav takes off our strike force and replaces with defensive type players hoping to keep them out by it.
Well it absolutely didn't work.They were struggling for possession after we scored, because we were totally in the acendencey .
I'm a massive fan of slavisa but I really think he got the late substitutions so wrong, and it was proved to be so.
I agree with SJ replacing Piazon with Kebano & we certainly looked better with his energy. I can also agree with Norwood coming on with a fresh pair of legs in midfield. However, bringing on Christie for Kebano made no sense to me. Brentford´s goal came about with a lack of understanding between Fredericks & Christie. Both were out of position as they didn´t seem to know where they were supposed to be.
Fredericks had run his socks off & Christie should have been a straight swap.
I agree with both posts.
Stew was out on his feet - he was completely spent ( Slav did the right thing and brought on Norwood ) I was delighted to see Kebano replace Piazon but the guy did look completely gone when he came off. Christie looked to me like a good substitution - he is quick , strong and also good in the air. It just didn't work out - he should have taken the ball into the corner but elected to attack the goal. I'm not going to hang him out to dry for trying to be positive
Subs looked like the right decision at the time
In Joka I trust
To be fair to Christie he has had no game time and looks unfit.
Slav needs to work the subs extra hard over the next few weeks .... bring them up to match-like fitness.
Kebano looked good the whole time he was on. He was defending from the front perfectly and unless he was injured then taking him off was reckless and the reason we dropped the points.
I think the substitutions caused us to concede the goal however it might have come without them as well. In the end iT is the players fault. But the players got us here in the first place
Quote from: Luka on April 14, 2018, 10:22:37 PM
Kebano looked good the whole time he was on. He was defending from the front perfectly and unless he was injured then taking him off was reckless and the reason we dropped the points.
+10000000000
👏👏👏👏👏
I wouldn't get too worked up about the last minute equaliser. If we don't make automatic promotion, it won't be down to that goal. 53 points from the last 21 games, that's incredible form . It was the 29 points from the first 22 games that has done for us.
The decision to take Kabano off felt a mistake at the time. It proved to be and was the reason we conceded late. But after 21 games unbeaten I am not blaming the squad for looking tired or the Coach. But that one sub remains a mystery to me unless Neeskens was knackered because of flu type virus or something.
What we do have to be careful of is not entering the play offs with a tired side. Time for changes or do we gamble and keep a tired side together. My feeling is we bring in a few changes. We have a squad so lets use it from the beginning. But subbing a sub felt a mistake at the time.
Quote from: Lighthouse on April 14, 2018, 10:58:12 PM
The decision to take Kabano off felt a mistake at the time. It proved to be and was the reason we conceded late. But after 21 games unbeaten I am not blaming the squad for looking tired or the Coach. But that one sub remains a mystery to me unless Neeskens was knackered because of flu type virus or something.
What we do have to be careful of is not entering the play offs with a tired side. Time for changes or do we gamble and keep a tired side together. My feeling is we bring in a few changes. We have a squad so lets use it from the beginning. But subbing a sub felt a mistake at the time.
It was a terrible decision by Jokanovic, he's obviously got a problem with Kebano judging by how many times he's been used this season, and today certainly won't help the relationship.
We are in the driving seat, let's anticipate who will finish where and arrange our results so we face the team we think we are most likely to beat in the first of the play offs! I mentioned these tactics before and with only 3 games left why wouldn't we?
I think it's very easy to blame SJ, but I think it's incorrect. Christie brought on to be an outlet but also a defensive presence. He's got the size and pace, so both options were in favor. He has also proven to be a great passer, including setting up Mitro in the past. We could have had another goal or two if we had done better in our counters, but we didn't. We didn't kill the game off, and came back to bite us. We sat too deep for too long, and it cost us. I agree with Statto in saying that we held them off for a good amount of time - but we just got out of our gameplan of defending a high line, and we paid the price. Slav was asking for us to push up, but the pressure got to us - and the rest is in the books.
Many of you are blaming SJ for pulling Kebano. But from where we were sitting it seemed very likely that Kebano had taken a bad knock. If it was a tactical switch then it was wtong but if it was enforced then it is more understandable.
Quote from: Matt10 on April 14, 2018, 11:08:28 PM
I think it's very easy to blame SJ, but I think it's incorrect. Christie brought on to be an outlet but also a defensive presence. He's got the size and pace, so both options were in favor. He has also proven to be a great passer, including setting up Mitro in the past. We could have had another goal or two if we had done better in our counters, but we didn't. We didn't kill the game off, and came back to bite us. We sat too deep for too long, and it cost us. I agree with Statto in saying that we held them off for a good amount of time - but we just got out of our gameplan of defending a high line, and we paid the price. Slav was asking for us to push up, but the pressure got to us - and the rest is in the books.
You contradict yourself there a couple of times !
You are saying that you agree with Kebano being taken off then say that Jokanovic was asking us to push up, so why then take Kebano off ?
You say we could have done better on the counter but surely that's a strength of Kebano, so again why take him off ?
Not trying to have a dig at you, I just don't understand the treatment of Neeskens today.
Quote from: Riversider on April 14, 2018, 11:19:39 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on April 14, 2018, 11:08:28 PM
I think it's very easy to blame SJ, but I think it's incorrect. Christie brought on to be an outlet but also a defensive presence. He's got the size and pace, so both options were in favor. He has also proven to be a great passer, including setting up Mitro in the past. We could have had another goal or two if we had done better in our counters, but we didn't. We didn't kill the game off, and came back to bite us. We sat too deep for too long, and it cost us. I agree with Statto in saying that we held them off for a good amount of time - but we just got out of our gameplan of defending a high line, and we paid the price. Slav was asking for us to push up, but the pressure got to us - and the rest is in the books.
You contradict yourself there a couple of times !
You are saying that you agree with Kebano being taken off then say that Jokanovic was asking us to push up, so why then take Kebano off ?
You say we could have done better on the counter but surely that's a strength of Kebano, so again why take him off ?
Not trying to have a dig at you, I just don't understand the treatment of Neeskens today.
I'm not against Neeskens in any way, I'm just explaining why I believe the decision is not as impactful as people are making it out to be. I think Neeskens played well, and missed a couple opportunities - but who didn't?
What I'm saying is that the substitution made sense from a personnel standpoint because Christie has proven he can get up in the attack, can send a good ball in, has pace, and also by nature has great defending capabilities. He ticks all the same boxes, and adds another one with defensive capabilities - not to mention broader frame. The goal wasn't his fault at all, the only thing I would put on him is that when he got up the pitch in the 4 v 3 scenario he take it to the corner flag, instead we had players tripping over one-another and he couldn't find the right pass. Neeskens had the same issues as well.
Christie has not had any real playing time, so how can any opinions be formed of what he can or cannot do in our team Matt10? If we had players the right hand side to match the guys we have on the left, well if only!!
Quote from: davew on April 14, 2018, 11:33:54 PM
Christie has not had any real playing time, so how can any opinions be formed of what he can or cannot do in our team Matt10? If we had players the right hand side to match the guys we have on the left, well if only!!
Really, Dave? 116 minutes and he hasn't any real playing time? 97% passing rate, with an assist (and another technically). We were all rating him a month or so ago, weren't we? How soon we forget. Is this how it is, just blame whoever replaces someone we prefer? It's like those who were blaming Fonte for the pass to Odoi against QPR.
I'm not sticking up, I'm provided facts and validating the choices our coach made. As always, anyone who wears the Fulham shirt gets equal amount of evaluation on their performance on the pitch.
It's like those who were blaming Fonte for the pass to Odoi against QPR.
Err . Given his track record and love of our Portuguese player .....that probably was Davew aka Groundhog Day
Great post. Questionable tactics. It was all fine until the 94th minute, and it wasn't time to tinker.
It is law of averages though. So many teams waste good chances. We should have drawn with Wednesday, but they blew it. We've been fortunate because other teams aren't clinical enough.
We were average today I thought, but I was surprised, Brentford has a tidy little outfit.
Quote from: Matt10 on April 14, 2018, 11:40:55 PM
Quote from: davew on April 14, 2018, 11:33:54 PM
Christie has not had any real playing time, so how can any opinions be formed of what he can or cannot do in our team Matt10? If we had players the right hand side to match the guys we have on the left, well if only!!
Really, Dave? 116 minutes and he hasn't any real playing time? 97% passing rate, with an assist (and another technically). We were all rating him a month or so ago, weren't we? How soon we forget. Is this how it is, just blame whoever replaces someone we prefer? It's like those who were blaming Fonte for the pass to Odoi against QPR.
I'm not sticking up, I'm provided facts and validating the choices our coach made. As always, anyone who wears the Fulham shirt gets equal amount of evaluation on their performance on the pitch.
Quote from: Matt10 on April 14, 2018, 11:40:55 PM
Hang on Matt, 116 minutes, are you referring to the amount of time Christie has played for us? If so then please reread my post, which suggests he hasn't had much playing time! The guy hasn't done a lot wrong in my book, I would have brought him on after 15 minutes as Fred's was having a nightmare! So much over reaction tonight, at the end of the day we weren't good enough to beat a good Brentford side whose manager and staff had done their homework!
Quote from: davew on April 14, 2018, 11:33:54 PM
Christie has not had any real playing time, so how can any opinions be formed of what he can or cannot do in our team Matt10? If we had players the right hand side to match the guys we have on the left, well if only!!
Really, Dave? 116 minutes and he hasn't any real playing time? 97% passing rate, with an assist (and another technically). We were all rating him a month or so ago, weren't we? How soon we forget. Is this how it is, just blame whoever replaces someone we prefer? It's like those who were blaming Fonte for the pass to Odoi against QPR.
I'm not sticking up, I'm provided facts and validating the choices our coach made. As always, anyone who wears the Fulham shirt gets equal amount of evaluation on their performance on the pitch.
Matt I am a bit confused???? I think you must have misunderstood my post, I would have picked Kebano in preference to any of our right attack players
Joka has always said he doesn't blame players for making mistakes
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on April 15, 2018, 12:05:55 AM
Joka has always said he doesn't blame players for making mistakes
He leaves it for us forum members to do that, he knows we are the real experts!
Quote from: davew on April 15, 2018, 12:11:49 AM
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on April 15, 2018, 12:05:55 AM
Joka has always said he doesn't blame players for making mistakes
He leaves it for us forum members to do that, he knows we are the real experts!
How true.
Quote from: Statto on April 15, 2018, 01:33:28 AM
Quote from: Riversider on April 14, 2018, 11:04:55 PM
he's obviously got a problem with Kebano judging by how many times he's been used this season, and today certainly won't help the relationship.
Er, yes of course mate, thats all very obvious ...
...
Nurse! Nuuurse!
Well I do wonder why Kebano doesn't get more game time and, in Ayite's absence, an opportunity to start. This is not a criticism of Piazon, but given the way we set up and our playing style I do think we look better balanced with Kebano.
Let's just stop blaming people shall we?
Let's stop it
Quote from: TerryR on April 15, 2018, 12:49:49 PM
Let's just stop blaming people shall we?
Let's stop it
Well if we idolise players and coaches and people spent huge amounts of money and time. Then it is only natural that in discussing matches people will put the blame on mistakes or players or coaches. Problem is we have very little room to be too critical after 21 matches unbeaten. Whatever happens. Our problems came before Christmas. But the blame game in all walks of life is a very natural thing to do. In the same way we over praise people for what amounts to a bit of luck.
I blame myself all the time.
Quote from: bobbo on April 14, 2018, 10:05:34 PM
We were winning 1-0 and completely had all the play and impetus when Slav takes off our strike force and replaces with defensive type players hoping to keep them out by it.
Well it absolutely didn't work.They were struggling for possession after we scored, because we were totally in the acendencey .
I'm a massive fan of slavisa but I really think he got the late substitutions so wrong, and it was proved to be so.
Well we all have the benefit of hindsight, he made the decision because he thought it was right at the time.
Er..........hang on this is a discussion forum
We can say what we like
SJ and FFC have been absolutely brilliant since this run started and everyone has rightly praised the team and manager on this site
However, using my right of free speech......and the benefit of being there, I though the substitutions totally disrupted the shape and flow of the team in the last 10 minutes......as did the tactics of not having enough forwards to use as an outlet...therefore we just invited pressure - similar to the last minute give aways last season
In addition, I thought the Cardiff last minute win must have affected the players' mood as they looked very flat in the first half
Quote from: Baszab on April 15, 2018, 04:33:45 PM
Er..........hang on this is a discussion forum
We can say what we like
SJ and FFC have been absolutely brilliant since this run started and everyone has rightly praised the team and manager on this site
However, using my right of free speech......and the benefit of being there, I though the substitutions totally disrupted the shape and flow of the team in the last 10 minutes......as did the tactics of not having enough forwards to use as an outlet...therefore we just invited pressure - similar to the last minute give aways last season
In addition, I thought the Cardiff last minute win must have affected the players' mood as they looked very flat in the first half
Agree with everything that you've just said, there isn't a manager or player on planet Earth that doesn't make mistakes, and even though it pains some on here to admit it, Jokanovic made a mistake yesterday in taking Kebano off, we were crying out for an injection of pace with 30 minutes to go as the game was obviously going to get stretched a scenario that suits Neeskens perfectly, to take him off was foolhardy bordering on madness.
Quote from: Riversider on April 15, 2018, 05:45:32 PM
Agree with everything that you've just said, there isn't a manager or player on planet Earth that doesn't make mistakes, and even though it pains some on here to admit it, Jokanovic made a mistake yesterday in taking Kebano off, we were crying out for an injection of pace with 30 minutes to go as the game was obviously going to get stretched a scenario that suits Neeskens perfectly, to take him off was foolhardy bordering on madness.
So Kebano wasn't injured then for sure?
That's what a couple of people that were at the game said. I couldn't tell from watching the stream.
Some of us thought he looked pretty rough when he came off - but if it doesn't suit your point of view or argument then he was as fit as a fiddle and Joka has lost his marbles.
I think I need to 'fess up 🙈
It's my fault we lost. I was the guy in the white shirt in the Riverside Stand that walked the ball back to the Brentford defender when they had a throw-in by the dugouts. Within a minute of that they'd equalised.
If only I'd held on to the ball for another 30 seconds. Schoolboy error 😬
Quote from: Hatch007 on April 15, 2018, 09:08:46 PM
I think I need to 'fess up 🙈
It's my fault we lost. I was the guy in the white shirt in the Riverside Stand that walked the ball back to the Brentford defender when they had a throw-in by the dugouts. Within a minute of that they'd equalised.
If only I'd held on to the ball for another 30 seconds. Schoolboy error 😬
Disgraceful you should be banned from this forum!!
This thread is focussing on the wrong thing. It was not the subs that caused the problem yesterday but the lack of urgency from the start. The lack of on pitch leadership, the lack of drive from our Captain, great player that he can be, it's a time of the season to be strong and I fear we lack a bit of something Cardiff like to go with our undoubted talent and great footballing style. There were worrying signs, the Millwall game will answer some of my fears and hopefully make these comments look very silly.
Quote from: FulhamStu on April 15, 2018, 10:19:18 PM
This thread is focussing on the wrong thing. It was not the subs that caused the problem yesterday but the lack of urgency from the start. The lack of on pitch leadership, the lack of drive from our Captain, great player that he can be, it's a time of the season to be strong and I fear we lack a bit of something Cardiff like to go with our undoubted talent and great footballing style. There were worrying signs, the Millwall game will answer some of my fears and hopefully make these comments look very silly.
TC has never been an inspirational leader, 1 of our best players certainly and without doubt, does he address the huddle pre kick off, NO! We can open up another 20 (or more threads) on why we didn't win on Saturday, but it won't change the result!! We are focussing on the wrong thing, we should be keeping fingers crossed that Cardiff collapse in their remaining games and we pull ourselves together to make a final challenge! I will say it again FFC have exceeded everybodies expectations in the last 4 months!
If Cardiff don't collapse, I think I will.
Cant understand how people can slag the team or coach off after this game. Each to his own ,free speach ,discussion forum and all that .....doesnt make it less bewildering when people are quick to judge and criticise the coach who is in the middle of the best run in the history of the club and we are playing the sort of football that none of us could have dreamt of 2 years ago.
Had we won 1-0 and christie had headed away the ball that fredricks should been on the end on everyone would be saying what a great substitution it was. No-ones perfect but for god sake get behind the team instead of bputting the boot in at the first opportunity !!!!
I don't see the point in replaying the past. That fact is that SJ has been our manager for these 21 unbeaten games, and our rise from 18th to 3rd in the table.
But he is bound to make some errors, if you can call what may have been the wrong subs, an error. He is the manager - and takes ultimate responsibility for what the 11 players on the field do, but obviously isn't infallible - no one is.
But let's not dwell on the past, which we can't do anything about, and focus on the future. COYW!!!!
I bet SJ would love to manage in hindsight, man's only perfect sense.
Taking Kebano off was a funny decision but then Jocanovic's substitutions are often difficult to explain.
Just hope Kebano is fit for Friday for there is little doubt we need him in that wide right spot.
I think we do need Kebanos pace , tenacity and aggression. I think Joka thought that as well on Saturday that is why he brought him on relatively early in the second half. He was brought off though for a reason - not a whim (I don't think Joka does whims). Now from where I was - he looked shot - I may be wrong. If he wasn't in good shape then Joja was probably seething that he may have professed to be fit in his desire to want to play but wasn't. Again pure speculation on my part. It may have been that he was given specific instructions and wasn't delivering them ( I don't know ) or it may have been that he just saw we were being overrun and wanted to put a bigger lad on to help with defending set pieces ( again I don't know) . There must though have been something as I just don't see Joka waisting a substitution when quite a lot of the team were looking so leggy.
I come back to the fact that he looked rough - and hope that if so he recovers quickly
Quote from: RaySmith on April 16, 2018, 06:19:33 AM
I don't see the point in replaying the past. That fact is that SJ has been our manager for these 21 unbeaten games, and our rise from 18th to 3rd in the table.
But he is bound to make some errors, if you can call what may have been the wrong subs, an error. He is the manager - and takes ultimate responsibility for what the 11 players on the field do, but obviously isn't infallible - no one is.
But let's not dwell on the past, which we can't do anything about, and focus on the future. COYW!!!!
Agree 👍