Everyone knew what the problem was before a ball was kicked. Even the club did and we bought in 5 defenders and an upgrade to the goalkeeper. The problem was, only one of the defenders made us better and he has been mostly injured.
Where I have sympathy for people who dig out Tony Khan, is we really did not need to spend £50 million on midfield, we needed to spend £50 million on defence.
We did not need a World Cup winning striker, we need a World Cup winning centre half.
The joke is that even though we put all that money into midfield, our current prime tactic is to play 5 at the back and 3 up front. You really could not make it up.
It's just not joined up thinking anywhere. We have a clear process for recruitment, I am frankly ok with that and think Tony Khan gets wrongly abused in this respect. Where I would be far more critical is in our apparent lack of strategy regarding team building. Going from one type of coach to another one with entirely different methods. A set of players with the potential ability to play procession football now trying to play a direct style. What will happen next ? Where is the continuity within the club. We hired Magath to utilise the youth, that went well !! Kit came in to calm the madness but was never a good enough coach or manager. Slav did a great job in the championship but the way he set out to deliver in the Premier League was naive at best.
We are lacking direction and leadership. Tony has loads of passion and I like him but the best signing we could make is to bring in a good director of football, someone who really knows the game. Rigg was the right idea, he was just not good enough. I would try and get Alardyce not as head coach but as director of football. He knows what is required in the championship and how to survive in the Premier League. This season is almost done, we need to plan for them future and then put that plan into practice. I would then hire a top young coach to work with the players, pick the team and use big Sam as a sounding board and have Big Sam working with Tony and the scouts on players we really need. Bring the best youngsters into the first team squad but recruit the best players to get us out of the championship next season. Leaders, strong players in defence. Quick players up front and try and keep enough of our quality midfielders to dominate as we did under Slav.
There, that was not so difficult was it !
The thing is, Tony Khan, as head of recruitment, both designed the current system, and remains in control of it. So he has to take the blame if that system is, as you say, "not joined up" etc. I've zero sympathy for him.
I was told by some on here years ago that the rationale for taking recruitment decisions out of the manager's hands is it allows you to replace the manager without having to replace the team. Well it clearly doesn't work like that, because as you say, the manager still chooses the tactics and the players need to suit the tactics.
For me, firstly Tony Khan must, absolutely MUST, step down from his role and stop involving himself in the running of the club. If he wants to attend one board meeting as an observer every month, fine, but his knowledge, experience and track record at FFC just don't justify any greater involvement than that.
Then I agree a proper DoF should be brought in to fill that vacuum. But I'd still reconfigure the system to give the manager more control than he has in the current system. Not total control, just more. If the club was being properly run, the ptoential player turnover implications wouldn't be a problem because managers would be staying with the club for 3-5 yr terms rather than changing every 6-12 months.
Quote from: Statto on January 13, 2019, 04:32:39 PM
The thing is, Tony Khan, as head of recruitment, both designed the current system, and remains in control of it. And he's designed it, and continues to run it, in a way that gives him huge influence. So he only has himself to blame IMO. I've zero sympathy for him.
I was told by some on here years ago that the rationale for taking recruitment decisions out of the manager's hands is it allows you to replace the manager without having to replace the team. Well it clearly doesn't work like that, because as you say, the manager still chooses the tactics and the players need to suit the tactics.
For me, firstly Tony Khan must, absolutely MUST, step down from his role and stop involving himself in the running of the club. If he wants to attend one board meeting as an observer every month, fine, but his knowledge, experience and track record at FFC just don't justify any greater involvement than that.
Then I agree a proper DoF should be brought in to fill that vacuum. But I'd still reconfigure the system to give the manager more control than he has in the current system. Not total control, just more. If the club was being properly run, the ptoential player turnover implications wouldn't be a problem because managers would be staying with the club for 3-5 yr terms rather than changing every 6-12 months.
Ok that's fine but with anyone as you I am sure know the only way to gain experience is by doing the job, at this moment we do not know if he has grasped the issues surrounding recruitment, I gues we will find out soon.
Quote from: alfie on January 13, 2019, 04:37:22 PM
Ok that's fine but with anyone as you I am sure know the only way to gain experience is by doing the job, at this moment we do not know if he has grasped the issues surrounding recruitment, I gues we will find out soon.
If he wants to gain experience then he goes and does that by being personal assistant to one of the junior scouts at Carshalton Athletic for a few years. Maybe then he gets promoted to junior scout himself, then maybe a position at a bigger club like Accrington Stanley. Maybe 30 years and another 10 jobs later he will, if he shows he can do the job well, work his way to a DoF role at a PL club.
There were lessons to be learned at FFC in 2016, 2017, 2018 and he's not learning them sorry.
I want the club to do everything possible to stay in the Prem -there are still a number of games left this season, still potential points to play for, and , I'm sure, twists and turns in the relegaton battle to come.
Besides, I think the fast changing nature of football, with few contracts seen out for their duration, means it's hard to plan for the future in such a way.
Well, ensuring our Prem survival, is the best possible thing we can do for the club's future fortunes.
Quote from: RaySmith on January 13, 2019, 04:50:03 PM
I want the club to do everything possible to stay in the Prem -there are still a number of games left this season, still potential points to play for, and , I'm sure, twists and turns in the relegaton battle to come.
Besides, I think the fast changing nature of football, with few contracts seen out for their duration, means it's hard to plan for the future in such a way.
Well, ensuring our Prem survival, is the best possible thing we can do for the club's future fortunes.
The trouble is if you go for that full on you could take many years to recover. Better surely to make the club strong, a good solid squad very capable of a quick return would surely not be the end of the world.
Fulham Stu, you say we have not got the players for direct football, take another look at our goal at Burnley yesterday, a good example of direct football leading to a great goal by Shurrle.
Encouraging wouldn't you say.
Quote from: Statto on January 13, 2019, 04:32:39 PM
The thing is, Tony Khan, as head of recruitment, both designed the current system, and remains in control of it. So he has to take the blame if that system is, as you say, "not joined up" etc. I've zero sympathy for him.
I was told by some on here years ago that the rationale for taking recruitment decisions out of the manager's hands is it allows you to replace the manager without having to replace the team. Well it clearly doesn't work like that, because as you say, the manager still chooses the tactics and the players need to suit the tactics.
For me, firstly Tony Khan must, absolutely MUST, step down from his role and stop involving himself in the running of the club. If he wants to attend one board meeting as an observer every month, fine, but his knowledge, experience and track record at FFC just don't justify any greater involvement than that.
Then I agree a proper DoF should be brought in to fill that vacuum. But I'd still reconfigure the system to give the manager more control than he has in the current system. Not total control, just more. If the club was being properly run, the ptoential player turnover implications wouldn't be a problem because managers would be staying with the club for 3-5 yr terms rather than changing every 6-12 months.
Spot on 101%
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
Everyone knew what the problem was before a ball was kicked. Even the club did and we bought in 5 defenders and an upgrade to the goalkeeper. The problem was, only one of the defenders made us better and he has been mostly injured.
Where I have sympathy for people who dig out Tony Khan, is we really did not need to spend £50 million on midfield, we needed to spend £50 million on defence.
We did not need a World Cup winning striker, we need a World Cup winning centre half.
The joke is that even though we put all that money into midfield, our current prime tactic is to play 5 at the back and 3 up front. You really could not make it up.
It's just not joined up thinking anywhere. We have a clear process for recruitment, I am frankly ok with that and think Tony Khan gets wrongly abused in this respect. Where I would be far more critical is in our apparent lack of strategy regarding team building. Going from one type of coach to another one with entirely different methods. A set of players with the potential ability to play procession football now trying to play a direct style. What will happen next ? Where is the continuity within the club. We hired Magath to utilise the youth, that went well !! Kit came in to calm the madness but was never a good enough coach or manager. Slav did a great job in the championship but the way he set out to deliver in the Premier League was naive at best.
We are lacking direction and leadership. Tony has loads of passion and I like him but the best signing we could make is to bring in a good director of football, someone who really knows the game. Rigg was the right idea, he was just not good enough. I would try and get Alardyce not as head coach but as director of football. He knows what is required in the championship and how to survive in the Premier League. This season is almost done, we need to plan for them future and then put that plan into practice. I would then hire a top young coach to work with the players, pick the team and use big Sam as a sounding board and have Big Sam working with Tony and the scouts on players we really need. Bring the best youngsters into the first team squad but recruit the best players to get us out of the championship next season. Leaders, strong players in defence. Quick players up front and try and keep enough of our quality midfielders to dominate as we did under Slav.
There, that was not so difficult was it !
082.gif :plus one: everything
except your appoint of Big Sam. Pick anyone else to be DOF.
Other than that your post was spot on.
Quote from: Statto on January 13, 2019, 04:41:51 PM
Quote from: alfie on January 13, 2019, 04:37:22 PM
Ok that's fine but with anyone as you I am sure know the only way to gain experience is by doing the job, at this moment we do not know if he has grasped the issues surrounding recruitment, I gues we will find out soon.
If he wants to gain experience then he goes and does that by being personal assistant to one of the junior scouts at Carshalton Athletic for a few years. Maybe then he gets promoted to junior scout himself, then maybe a position at a bigger club like Accrington Stanley. Maybe 30 years and another 10 jobs later he will, if he shows he can do the job well, work his way to a DoF role at a PL club.
There were lessons to be learned at FFC in 2016, 2017, 2018 and he's not learning them sorry.
Exactly he should start at the bottom and learn from his superiors, before he can fill the post he is currently in, not qualified in any shape or form, and is only in the job because of his father, and will continue to undermine the club, until he is replaced by a more qualified and experienced football person.
Quote from: filham on January 13, 2019, 06:31:19 PM
Fulham Stu, you say we have not got the players for direct football, take another look at our goal at Burnley yesterday, a good example of direct football leading to a great goal by Shurrle.
Encouraging wouldn't you say.
Good spot, I guess what I am saying is our major spending was on midfield which becomes far less important if you are going more direct. So back to my OP, that £50M spent on Seri and Frank would have been far more effectively spent on a top top central defender and a right back.
Regarding the continual slating of Tony Khan...last May he was a star, 90% of our fans were delighted at the summer recruitment. I am saying, now we can see he made mistakes and he should have a football man next to him. His Dad has the money...fact, more likely to let his son spend it than me. That's all good in my book. Tony is a decent, very enthusiastic, loves Fulham. Nothing wrong with that. All this make him work his way up is fairy tale stuff.... it's not a fair world. Do you think the Queen would be rich or speak posh if she grew up on a tough council estate in the North West.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: filham on January 13, 2019, 06:31:19 PM
Fulham Stu, you say we have not got the players for direct football, take another look at our goal at Burnley yesterday, a good example of direct football leading to a great goal by Shurrle.
Encouraging wouldn't you say.
Good spot, I guess what I am saying is our major spending was on midfield which becomes far less important if you are going more direct. So back to my OP, that £50M spent on Seri and Frank would have been far more effectively spent on a top top central defender and a right back.
Regarding the continual slating of Tony Khan...last May he was a star, 90% of our fans were delighted at the summer recruitment. I am saying, now we can see he made mistakes and he should have a football man next to him. His Dad has the money...fact, more likely to let his son spend it than me. That's all good in my book. Tony is a decent, very enthusiastic, loves Fulham. Nothing wrong with that. All this make him work his way up is fairy tale stuff.... it's not a fair world. Do you think the Queen would be rich or speak posh if she grew up on a tough council estate in the North West.
I don't know where you get 90% of fans were pleased and thought he was a star.
More like the other way round, a noisy 10% who would jump off a cliff like Lemmings.
I haven't met one single Fulham Supporter who was not in doubt of most of his ill judged signings, and fairly sceptical, as it was well known already that TK did not know the difference between a football and a snowball, and it has all contributed to Fulhams demise.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
The joke is that even though we put all that money into midfield, our current prime tactic is to play 5 at the back and 3 up front. You really could not make it up.
The reason we have to play 5 at the back is because our central midfielders (and fullbacks) are terrible by Prem standards. Seri and Anguissa being anywhere from well below expectation to basically useless has murdered everything else we've tried to do this season, although more or less failing to improve any spot in the back four from a Championship team hasn't helped either.
It's frustrating, because this is what sent us down in 2014, too. The Sidwell-Murphy pairing was the worst in the league. We tried to fix it this time, and it went completely pear-shaped, leaving us in the same position, hemorrhaging stupid goals every week.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 13, 2019, 07:46:28 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: filham on January 13, 2019, 06:31:19 PM
Fulham Stu, you say we have not got the players for direct football, take another look at our goal at Burnley yesterday, a good example of direct football leading to a great goal by Shurrle.
Encouraging wouldn't you say.
Good spot, I guess what I am saying is our major spending was on midfield which becomes far less important if you are going more direct. So back to my OP, that £50M spent on Seri and Frank would have been far more effectively spent on a top top central defender and a right back.
Regarding the continual slating of Tony Khan...last May he was a star, 90% of our fans were delighted at the summer recruitment. I am saying, now we can see he made mistakes and he should have a football man next to him. His Dad has the money...fact, more likely to let his son spend it than me. That's all good in my book. Tony is a decent, very enthusiastic, loves Fulham. Nothing wrong with that. All this make him work his way up is fairy tale stuff.... it's not a fair world. Do you think the Queen would be rich or speak posh if she grew up on a tough council estate in the North West.
I don't know where you get 90% of fans were pleased and thought he was a star.
More like the other way round, a noisy 10% who would jump off a cliff like Lemmings.
I haven't met one single Fulham Supporter who was not in doubt of most of his ill judged signings, and fairly sceptical, as it was well known already that TK did not know the difference between a football and a snowball, and it has all contributed to Fulhams demise.
Wolly, I like a load of your stuff, but frankly, maybe the fans you met did say this..but..everything, or 90% of everything I read was very positive. On FOF, in the media and most fans I spoke too.
People were saying stuff like, they think we will finish in the top 10.. etc etc etc.
Have I lost the plot or does your memory let you down ? Blimey mate.
Quote from: Denver Fulham on January 13, 2019, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
The joke is that even though we put all that money into midfield, our current prime tactic is to play 5 at the back and 3 up front. You really could not make it up.
The reason we have to play 5 at the back is because our central midfielders (and fullbacks) are terrible by Prem standards. Seri and Anguissa being anywhere from well below expectation to basically useless has murdered everything else we've tried to do this season, although more or less failing to improve any spot in the back four from a Championship team hasn't helped either.
It's frustrating, because this is what sent us down in 2014, too. The Sidwell-Murphy pairing was the worst in the league. We tried to fix it this time, and it went completely pear-shaped, leaving us in the same position, hemorrhaging stupid goals every week.
Denver Fulham...Seri is not useless. Are you saying Ranieri is a totally inept, useless, has no idea what he is doing manager ? Because he picks the useless Seri above Cairney etc etc. Some of the stuff being posted at the moment is flipping stupid. I get it we are all frustrated, I get it that Seri is not as good as we had hoped, I get it that Anguissa has been massively dissapointing so far. But that's football, I still think Anguissa can be a good player, I do worry about the attitude of over paid footballers..not being hungry enough, not sweating blood for the cause. This is why maybe League football is better than Premiership, because they are not quite so over indulged. I repeat, playing 5 at the back, yes because our defence is crap, and 3 forwards is giving the midfield 2 too much to do. We should at the minimum be only playing 2 up top and have 3 in midfield. And no, I would not play Seri and Cairney together, well certainly not at the start of the game.
We need to raid teams with a few quality players that would love to play for Fulham instead of their current club. Let's raid Huddersfield in the winter transfer window, their season is over. They have played Fulham, Cardiff and Burnley twice getting six points; and now they have to play the other sixteen team again that they only got five points against in the first round.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 11:27:39 PM
Quote from: Denver Fulham on January 13, 2019, 09:18:18 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 03:58:12 PM
The joke is that even though we put all that money into midfield, our current prime tactic is to play 5 at the back and 3 up front. You really could not make it up.
The reason we have to play 5 at the back is because our central midfielders (and fullbacks) are terrible by Prem standards. Seri and Anguissa being anywhere from well below expectation to basically useless has murdered everything else we've tried to do this season, although more or less failing to improve any spot in the back four from a Championship team hasn't helped either.
It's frustrating, because this is what sent us down in 2014, too. The Sidwell-Murphy pairing was the worst in the league. We tried to fix it this time, and it went completely pear-shaped, leaving us in the same position, hemorrhaging stupid goals every week.
Denver Fulham...Seri is not useless. Are you saying Ranieri is a totally inept, useless, has no idea what he is doing manager ? Because he picks the useless Seri above Cairney etc etc. Some of the stuff being posted at the moment is flipping stupid. I get it we are all frustrated, I get it that Seri is not as good as we had hoped, I get it that Anguissa has been massively dissapointing so far. But that's football, I still think Anguissa can be a good player, I do worry about the attitude of over paid footballers..not being hungry enough, not sweating blood for the cause. This is why maybe League football is better than Premiership, because they are not quite so over indulged. I repeat, playing 5 at the back, yes because our defence is crap, and 3 forwards is giving the midfield 2 too much to do. We should at the minimum be only playing 2 up top and have 3 in midfield. And no, I would not play Seri and Cairney together, well certainly not at the start of the game.
I never said that. I suggested that Anguissa has been basically useless (and Seri has played below expectation). Seri was probably our best player on Saturday.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 11:17:08 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 13, 2019, 07:46:28 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 13, 2019, 07:04:41 PM
Quote from: filham on January 13, 2019, 06:31:19 PM
Fulham Stu, you say we have not got the players for direct football, take another look at our goal at Burnley yesterday, a good example of direct football leading to a great goal by Shurrle.
Encouraging wouldn't you say.
Good spot, I guess what I am saying is our major spending was on midfield which becomes far less important if you are going more direct. So back to my OP, that £50M spent on Seri and Frank would have been far more effectively spent on a top top central defender and a right back.
Regarding the continual slating of Tony Khan...last May he was a star, 90% of our fans were delighted at the summer recruitment. I am saying, now we can see he made mistakes and he should have a football man next to him. His Dad has the money...fact, more likely to let his son spend it than me. That's all good in my book. Tony is a decent, very enthusiastic, loves Fulham. Nothing wrong with that. All this make him work his way up is fairy tale stuff.... it's not a fair world. Do you think the Queen would be rich or speak posh if she grew up on a tough council estate in the North West.
I don't know where you get 90% of fans were pleased and thought he was a star.
More like the other way round, a noisy 10% who would jump off a cliff like Lemmings.
I haven't met one single Fulham Supporter who was not in doubt of most of his ill judged signings, and fairly sceptical, as it was well known already that TK did not know the difference between a football and a snowball, and it has all contributed to Fulhams demise.
Wolly, I like a load of your stuff, but frankly, maybe the fans you met did say this..but..everything, or 90% of everything I read was very positive. On FOF, in the media and most fans I spoke too.
People were saying stuff like, they think we will finish in the top 10.. etc etc etc.
Have I lost the plot or does your memory let you down ? Blimey mate.
I found it hard as did my colleagues and associates, to comprehend how some people were getting all excited by some of the players brought in last Summers who we spent over inflated prices on, as well as the ill judged loans, it was always going to end in tears.
But I lived in hope that things would turn out better, but knowing in my gut that it was poor recruitment by a poor recruitment team.
After gathering all the evidence and research, I can categorically state that you may have lost the plot, but that often can happen when people try and defend the indefensible, which I can understand, it's like the last throw of the dice. But we are all on the same side, so i can sympathise, it's not easy supporting Fulham as we have all gathered.
May I ask you to address me as Woolly, or even Mr Mammoth, or some even call me God, if none of those float your boat, then Sir will have to do.
But I prefer Woolly if it's ok with you. 🍺🐘
The spending was on the midfield, not because we were more direct, but because we played Slav football, at the time. The majority on here, social media and even tv pundits, said that we needed to get PL quality and PL experienced players because our promotion side was far from it.
So, let's dig into who was available. Looking at the summer signings by the PL, see if there are any of the players on the "OUT" we could have picked up. The pickings are slim.
https://www.premierleague.com/news/667700
They become even slimmer knowing full well that we are a newly promoted side, newly promoted coach, a set system of a unit midfield 3 that had an unbeaten streak of 23 in the league below.
From the OUT list, here are the ones that could have possibly worked. Only those who are Premier League experienced mind you:
1. Harry Arter >> Bournemouth > Cardiff on loan
2. Benik Afobe >> Bournemouth > Wolves perm
3. Davy Klaassen >> Everton > Werder Bremen perm
4. Kevin Mirallas >> Everton > Fiorentina loan
5. Jon Flanagan >> Liverpool > released, at Rangers perm
6. Danny Ings >> Liverpool > Southampton perm
7. Dwight Gayle >> Newcastle > West Brom loan
8. Kouyate >> West Ham > Crystal Palace perm
From that list, and competing with the likes of Cardiff, Southampton, West Brom and Crystal Palace:
1. Harry Arter >> Bournemouth > Cardiff on loan
2. Danny Ings >> Liverpool > Southampton perm
3. Dwight Gayle >> Newcastle > West Brom loan
4. Kouyate >> West Ham > Crystal Palace perm
Now, we want midfielders because the perception is that Seri and Anguissa are useless:
1. Harry Arter >> Bournemouth > Cardiff on loan
2. Kouyate >> West Ham > Crystal Palace perm
Was our recruiting team in for them? Just Arter from what I can find. Kouyate was signed at the start of August.
1. Harry Arter >> https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2018/07/27/do-report-fulham-ready-to-sign-bournemouth-midfielder-harry-arte/
------------------
So what do we do now? How slim is that list now? We keep talking about how we want premier league experienced players. Just because we know what we do now, does not do anymore to invalidate the fact that the crop to choose was slim, and regardless we had to go outside that filter. Multiple teams on that list made mistakes in their signings going outside of the filter of PL experienced. Ours just sticks out more because of where we are on the table and people can't seem to comprehend that there is no such thing as time machines.
It's time to move on into the present and the future.
Absolutely brillant analysis "Matt10", showing that proper midfielders (rather than athetic box-to box defenders) with EPL experience are so so expensive. It seems like "Route One Football's major advantage" is that you don't need to spend much money on expensive midfielders cause you hoof it over them anyway, which allows a team to spend on backs and forwards instead.
TK is not the problem (FFP Rules limit his budget), the problem is Slav Football requires very expensive all round high quality EPL players. Big Sam requires cheap morons that can do one (or two) thing really really well; goalkeeper / centre backs that stop attacks scoring and send the ball down field; midfielders that are incredible box to box athetes (that dreamed as a child of have the ball skills of Calton Palmer but failed) and forwards that shoot wherever they get the ball cause they never learnt to pass.
David Brooks? Sheff Utd to Bournemouth for 11 million in July. Would have been exactly what we needed if our scouting & recruitment team were fit for purpose.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on January 14, 2019, 10:50:31 AM
David Brooks? Sheff Utd to Bournemouth for 11 million in July. Would have been exactly what we needed if our scouting & recruitment team were fit for purpose.
David Brooks has played twice as sub against Fulham for a totally of 80 mins, so Jokaovic would have watched a few games he played and recruitment team also. We don't know why he was rejected, but if Jokavoic and scouts all thought David Brooks was better than Anguissa, i doubt Tony Khan would have spent $30 million on Anguissa instead of $11 million on David Brooks.
Bournmouth signed David Brooks 1st July before Fulham had resigned Tom Cairney and Ryan Sessegnon. Signing an attacking midfielder / winger before resigning top players may have turned out very badly. Fulham focused on resigning top players first.
As much as it pains me to say it, 'what Fulham need to do now' is to accept any bids for Mitro, Cairney, Sess and anyone else of any real value to prepare the club financially for next years season in the Championship. Prices will plummet at the end of the year.
Keep hold of those who may have been surplus to requirements in the Premiership (McDonald, Johansen and so on) as we will need them to form a base for next year (don't want a whole new squad alongside the, inevitable, new manager).
It's starting to look more and more like we really should have kept hold of Slavisa.... Surely now there can be no more doubters? We'd be ready to challenge for promotion next year for sure. Now? Who knows! A complete lottery as we don't know who we'll have as manager, what squad, or even what footballing philosophy. In short; a total and utter mess.
Your post is all conjecture - how do you know that Slavisa would have stayed as manager?
The best thing the club can do is go for it - survival in the Prem. Planning for a future in the Championship now is mad - so we should sell our best players and buy rubbish ones?
Quote from: RaySmith on January 14, 2019, 11:44:06 AM
Your post is all conjecture - how do you know that Slavisa would have stayed as manager?
The best thing the club can do is go for it - survival in the Prem. Planning for a future in the Championship now is mad - so we should sell our best players and buy rubbish ones?
And completely jeopardise the clubs future? Putting ourselves in very real danger of complete financial meltdown, transfer embargos and, who knows, maybe a second relegation (it very nearly happened last time, if you remember?).
Go for it? Premier League Survival? It's gone, finished, we are relegated in all but maths. There is simply no chance now. If the club (and you eternal optimists) were serious about doing that, they should have done this last week before the Burnley game..
Sorry to be harsh but it's true.
The Slavisa stuff is conjecture I concede, but I can imagine had satisfactory contracts been put forward and being in it for the long term/having a project regardless of relegation, why not? Worked well enough for Burnley...
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 14, 2019, 11:39:00 AM
As much as it pains me to say it, 'what Fulham need to do now' is to accept any bids for Mitro, Cairney, Sess and anyone else of any real value to prepare the club financially for next years season in the Championship. Prices will plummet at the end of the year.
Really?
Maybe if no one has noticed that we're 19th and crap, they'll make generous offers for those players this month.
But i think it more likely that other clubs have noticed and think, like most on this board, that we're already as good as relegated, and won't offer any more now than they will in May/June. So we may as well just wait. Makes no difference.
Quote from: Statto on January 14, 2019, 12:57:22 PM
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 14, 2019, 11:39:00 AM
As much as it pains me to say it, 'what Fulham need to do now' is to accept any bids for Mitro, Cairney, Sess and anyone else of any real value to prepare the club financially for next years season in the Championship. Prices will plummet at the end of the year.
Really?
Maybe if no one has noticed that we're 19th and crap, they'll make generous offers for those players this month.
But i think it more likely that other clubs have noticed and think, like most on this board, that we're already as good as relegated, and won't offer any more now than they will in May/June. So we may as well just wait. Makes no difference.
Must admit to there being no real point trying to bundle players out the door in the next 2 weeks, the window in the summer is a far longer one and the difference in valuation of Mitrovic, Sessegnon, Cairney, Seri etc won't be dramatically different.
However I do think that "ByThe River" has it bang on with regards to "going for it" - in the sense of spending out big money now in a panic to save ourselves. Chances are it would be too little too late. yes as I've said elsewhere I can see possible Babel on loan, Drinkwater on loan (if we can finally rid ourselves of TFM) and Cahill on a short term free transfer - the ramifications to FFP could be very detrimental to us otherwise. I'm also certain that the Khan's realise this and these will be the only sort of deals we see. Last time we JUST failed FFP by a whisker we were given a transfer embargo. If we fail it for a 2nd time, but much more heavily then an embargo is a gimme - and fines/even points deductions aren't out of the question. So yes - lets try to paper the cracks and hope the experienced centre back effect is more dramatic than we could have ever hoped. However if it goes the way it seems likely to we will need to sell our most valuable assets and the big wage earners in the summer just so we sit comfortably with FFP and have given ourselves a reasonable championship transfer budget to try and build on. It's also why it would be folly to sell Stef Jo and KMac as they alomng with Betts, Odoi, Bryan, Ream, maybe Mawson & Kamara and a few others will form the basis of our starting point next season. We DO need that platform - as the alternative is the Magath nightmare that almost saw us drop straight through to the 3rd tier. This is pragmatism & realism as opposed to defeatism IMO. A spend whatever it takes to try and stay in this division at the stage we're currently in could prove disasterous long term for the club - at least the way I've suggested we get to go again in a far healthier position than last time we dropped from the premiership.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on January 14, 2019, 01:13:29 PM
However I do think that "ByThe River" has it bang on with regards to "going for it" - in the sense of spending out big money now in a panic to save ourselves. Chances are it would be too little too late. yes as I've said elsewhere I can see possible Babel on loan, Drinkwater on loan (if we can finally rid ourselves of TFM) and Cahill on a short term free transfer - the ramifications to FFP could be very detrimental to us otherwise. I'm also certain that the Khan's realise this and these will be the only sort of deals we see. Last time we JUST failed FFP by a whisker we were given a transfer embargo. If we fail it for a 2nd time, but much more heavily then an embargo is a gimme - and fines/even points deductions aren't out of the question.
Again I think this is a moot point because I don't see top quality PL players joining a club in our position on long contracts. i reckon our choices are either, decent PL players who are prepared to join us on loan and maybe extend if we stay up, or Championship players. Irrespective of whether we decide to 'go for it'.
Also disagree that being sanctioned 'more heavily than an embargo' is a 'gimme' if we breach FFP. Other clubs have breached it more than once. Breaching it twice in 5 yrs, in both cases immediately after being a relegated, isn't particularly egregious. And the benchmark for big sanctions is QPR who not only abused the rules, but then disputed the sanction for 6 yrs, before eventually getting a 1-window embargo and a fine that was largely payable by the owners rather than the club itself. no chance of anyone getting a points deduction anytime soon.
We can agree to disagree over FFP - and time will tell if we don't get our house in order. However the alluded to PL players coming in on loans just isn't possible as we have no available slots. Unless TFM slings his hook of course and that gives us just 1 loan spot from other premiership sides. Our options aren't great & I really don't think the Khans will start chucking money at it as things stand.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on January 14, 2019, 01:32:11 PM
We can agree to disagree over FFP - and time will tell if we don't get our house in order. However the alluded to PL players coming in on loans just isn't possible as we have no available slots. Unless TFM slings his hook of course and that gives us just 1 loan spot from other premiership sides. Our options aren't great & I really don't think the Khans will start chucking money at it as things stand.
Well hopefully we can get shot of TFM as you say. Then there's the possibility of loaning ex-PL players now playing abroad, as we did with Schurrle and are now apparently looking to do with Babel.
Then with the likes of Cahill, i presume we'll try to persuade him to agree a mutual termination with chelsea and sign a new 6 month contract with us, rather than structure it as a loan, if that gets us around the rules (although i will admit, i don't know for sure if that's how it works)
[/quote]
Quote from: Statto on January 14, 2019, 12:57:22 PM
Really?
Maybe if no one has noticed that we're 19th and crap, they'll make generous offers for those players this month.
But i think it more likely that other clubs have noticed and think, like most on this board, that we're already as good as relegated, and won't offer any more now than they will in May/June. So we may as well just wait. Makes no difference.
I take your point and do think we won't get over the odds (ie. the kind of figures thrown around last season for Sess, for example) but I do think we'd get more now than in May. Both because relegation (and the related fire sale/struggle to make ends meet) is not yet confirmed and due to the usual overpricing in the January window, clubs getting someone in before their rivals also start bidding (again I'm thinking of Sessegnon, if Liverpool, Spurs, Utd are all still interested. Which is by no means certain after this season... But its worth a slight premium for one of those clubs to secure him before the end of the season).
I should point out (for fear of being labelled negative), I don't want anyone to go. I don't want us to be relegated. It is simple pragmatism as Spirit Of 2000 points out. To do what some are hoping for (going for it) is crazy and nonsensical. The equivalent of walking to bookies at lunch and putting your house on the number 4 in the 2.10 at Chepstow.
I'll still be following Fulham in whatever league we're in, so lets make sure there's still a Fulham to follow.
Fulham was last in EPL on Christmas Day, which is often called the "Curse of Christmas" because 23 of 26 teams that were last on Christmas Day have been relegated. Out of the 3 that stayed up only two stayed up the following year; out of the 23 that went down six bounced back up to EPL the next season (that is 27%).
So determine the best strategy for being in the Premier League in the season 2020-21, it is worth considering that only two teams have struggled on to avoid relegation and survived the next season, where as six teams have dropped and bounced up immediately.
On average about 27% (22/79) of the all teams that get relegated come back up the next year, which is far higher than the 11.5% that survive the curse and only 66% of those that survive the curse stay up the next season anyway.
Fulham need 34 points to stay up, which if we lose out two games before transfer window closes is "2 points a game against each of the team outside the top six". If we drop to the Championship, we need about 2 points per game to get automatically promotion.
If a team has extra money and the curse, it is better spent on players that will be part of the fight to win the Championship. We should buy and sell players in the winter transfer window with the thought that next season we will be trying to win the Championship. I really think, we need a few reinforcements even for winning the Championship, such as a top Championship Right Back and under 28 yo Centre Backs.
There has been little comment about the way Fulham are run as a football team.
My point is that Tony Khan as the supreme is fine with me, he has access to the money, he has enthusiasm for the club and wants what is best for the club. What he does not have is any background football knowledge. Everything we have done in recent seasons apart from appointing Slav, is short term. Building the side is never done quickly enough so we end up with the first half of the season being difficult.
What I am suggesting is that we have a football man alongside Tony. They then create a strategy that is long term. We recruite to that strategy and appoint a coach to build the team on the training pitch. We sort of did that with Slav but the difference was his role in the recruitment was probably not strong enough.
If we did that now, in order to build for next season, I am pretty sure we would be able to have a Championship winning team in place, and coached for the first game next season. If we carry on with putting all our eggs in the survival basket I fear we will only make things worse. If we want to retain Ranieri as the coach, fine..but he needs to commit to it now. We should look at the players many who are on long term contracts and agree..1. Can we afford them, 2.. Are they willing to drop a division next year, hopefully for one year only. 3.. recruit new players, starting now, where we need them to be ready for next seasons promotion party.
Yes, we should still play every game this season with the hope that a miracle can be achieved, but be honest with ourselves, this is a very long shot. Incentivise the player such that they will give everything to achieve the miracle but don't carry passengers if we can avoid it.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 14, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
There has been little comment about the way Fulham are run as a football team.
My point is that Tony Khan as the supreme is fine with me, he has access to the money, he has enthusiasm for the club and wants what is best for the club. What he does not have is any background football knowledge. Everything we have done in recent seasons apart from appointing Slav, is short term. Building the side is never done quickly enough so we end up with the first half of the season being difficult.
What I am suggesting is that we have a football man alongside Tony. They then create a strategy that is long term. We recruite to that strategy and appoint a coach to build the team on the training pitch. We sort of did that with Slav but the difference was his role in the recruitment was probably not strong enough.
If we did that now, in order to build for next season, I am pretty sure we would be able to have a Championship winning team in place, and coached for the first game next season. If we carry on with putting all our eggs in the survival basket I fear we will only make things worse. If we want to retain Ranieri as the coach, fine..but he needs to commit to it now. We should look at the players many who are on long term contracts and agree..1. Can we afford them, 2.. Are they willing to drop a division next year, hopefully for one year only. 3.. recruit new players, starting now, where we need them to be ready for next seasons promotion party.
Yes, we should still play every game this season with the hope that a miracle can be achieved, but be honest with ourselves, this is a very long shot. Incentivise the player such that they will give everything to achieve the miracle but don't carry passengers if we can avoid it.
Cracking post. Agree with pretty much all of it.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 14, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
Tony Khan as the supreme is fine with me, he has access to the money, he has enthusiasm for the club and wants what is best for the club. What he does not have is any background football knowledge.... What I am suggesting is that we have a football man alongside Tony.
So under your model, what is Tony still in charge of when the new man comes in.
Obviously we already have Mackintosh, Casper et al running the business side. On the football side we'll have scouts, a coach and your new "football man". What are you proposing to leave Tony Khan in charge of?
I new little about our new summer signings, apart from Mitrovic of course, but the media suggested we had purchased top drawer players in Anguissa, Seri, Shurrle and Mawson, at the prices mentioned I thought they had to be right.
If Fulham were relegated at the end of the season and Ranieri leaves for whatever reason (money, lack of prestige, failure,...) would you give David Wagner another go in the Championship??
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on January 14, 2019, 06:44:17 PM
If Fulham were relegated at the end of the season and Ranieri leaves for whatever reason (money, lack of prestige, failure,...) would you give David Wagner another go in the Championship??
Yes
Quote from: MJG on January 14, 2019, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on January 14, 2019, 06:44:17 PM
If Fulham were relegated at the end of the season and Ranieri leaves for whatever reason (money, lack of prestige, failure,...) would you give David Wagner another go in the Championship??
Yes
I wanted him for Fulham some time ago. Seems a very honest, up front man. Seems to want a relationship with a club rather than having one eye on the door for the next opportunity. Also, seems like someone who could do just as well as Hughton has with Brighton, if given reasonable and consistent funding to build.
I liked his honesty about the situation with Huddersfield at the beginning of the season. Never laid blame at anyone's feet but, was blunt about what kind of "miracle" it would take to continue surviving with their budget.
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 14, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
There has been little comment about the way Fulham are run as a football team.
My point is that Tony Khan as the supreme is fine with me, he has access to the money, he has enthusiasm for the club and wants what is best for the club. What he does not have is any background football knowledge. Everything we have done in recent seasons apart from appointing Slav, is short term. Building the side is never done quickly enough so we end up with the first half of the season being difficult.
What I am suggesting is that we have a football man alongside Tony. They then create a strategy that is long term. We recruite to that strategy and appoint a coach to build the team on the training pitch. We sort of did that with Slav but the difference was his role in the recruitment was probably not strong enough.
If we did that now, in order to build for next season, I am pretty sure we would be able to have a Championship winning team in place, and coached for the first game next season. If we carry on with putting all our eggs in the survival basket I fear we will only make things worse. If we want to retain Ranieri as the coach, fine..but he needs to commit to it now. We should look at the players many who are on long term contracts and agree..1. Can we afford them, 2.. Are they willing to drop a division next year, hopefully for one year only. 3.. recruit new players, starting now, where we need them to be ready for next seasons promotion party.
Yes, we should still play every game this season with the hope that a miracle can be achieved, but be honest with ourselves, this is a very long shot. Incentivise the player such that they will give everything to achieve the miracle but don't carry passengers if we can avoid it.
A great post and very similar to one I made the other day. The Khans are not bad owners per se, but Tony needs his role diluting. If last season was 'proof' to them that it works and should be backed wholesale, hopefully this season will serve to convince them otherwise.
A long term plan is absolutely vital (and why Slavisa should still be here). Next season we really will be buggered if, as I suspect, we are looking to bring in a new manager and half a new squad. There has to be some continuity to achieve success.
Quote from: Statto on January 14, 2019, 05:47:28 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 14, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
Tony Khan as the supreme is fine with me, he has access to the money, he has enthusiasm for the club and wants what is best for the club. What he does not have is any background football knowledge.... What I am suggesting is that we have a football man alongside Tony.
So under your model, what is Tony still in charge of when the new man comes in.
Obviously we already have Mackintosh, Casper et al running the business side. On the football side we'll have scouts, a coach and your new "football man". What are you proposing to leave Tony Khan in charge of?
Hilda the tea Lady.
Quote from: Statto on January 14, 2019, 05:47:28 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on January 14, 2019, 05:35:38 PM
Tony Khan as the supreme is fine with me, he has access to the money, he has enthusiasm for the club and wants what is best for the club. What he does not have is any background football knowledge.... What I am suggesting is that we have a football man alongside Tony.
So under your model, what is Tony still in charge of when the new man comes in.
Obviously we already have Mackintosh, Casper et al running the business side. On the football side we'll have scouts, a coach and your new "football man". What are you proposing to leave Tony Khan in charge of?
Tony can be in charge of Stats and could even become Chairman with his Dad as the owner.
Yes I would take Wagner as head coach but still appoint a Big Sam type as football director. Continual sniping at Tony Khan get us nowhere. He wants what is best for the club and I agree is not qualified to lead recruitment unless he has very good men leading him in the right direction.
Shahid Khan has, is and will be making massive investments in FFC. Many fans of other clubs would bite your hands off to have similar backing. They just need to get the structure right. Get a really positive effective strategy in place and plan for the future.
We have had people in charge of Fulham, like say Jimmy Hill who loved the club but nowadays, and even then without big money supporting you, it's extremely difficult to compete. Why do you think the top 6 are the top 6 ? It's because they are the most wealthy. As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.
What do Fulham need to do now?
Beat Spurs on Sunday would be a good way to kick start a recovery.
My basic point is that I share the view TK must step down a level at Fulham or go elsewhere in English football to gain experience in how recruitment can be made to work well.
But I say that with one big proviso and that is the simple matter of a wholesale review of the whole recruitment team personnel and performance including the scouts, their networks and networking habits, the administrators tasked with negotiating and contract work, their networks and networking habits, and the data analysts and their networks and networking habits. I'd also like a wholesale review of communication and meetings with coaches about new recruits and how they are fairing or have faired against recruitment criteria either as good measure, bad measure or totally inappropriate measure. This material would be good in making adjustments for future potential recruits. And finally a look at coaches and coaching and whether or not we could do better than the current regime. Of course all that would be best handled by a wise old(er) professional football sage.
Since I believe the Club needs better leadership and direction under a charismatic and respected senior member of staff this again points toward a sage like figure to set the tone and agenda and be a focal point for communications.
To suggest TK is not the problem is to deny his responsibility for squandering a lot of money on players who have produced such a dreadful season so far under two completely differing manager styles. It isn't going to get better unless FFC have the will to sort it out and that is Khan Snr's responsibility.
Quote from: filham on January 15, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
What do Fulham need to do now?
Beat Spurs on Sunday would be a good way to kick start a recovery.
I certainly hope they will beat Spurs and it is a game we can win. But even a win or draw should not distract anybody from the problems that lurk behind the scenes at FFC. We know the Club is ailing and a good doctor is needed urgently.
