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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Weybridge White on October 06, 2019, 08:09:17 PM

Title: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Weybridge White on October 06, 2019, 08:09:17 PM
Double page article in Saturday's Times on Cyrus Christie.  It makes rather sad reading especially when he says about Fulham fans - 'I know they don't like me - I get booed coming on as a sub - get booed in the warm up'.  I think we need to remember that these young men have feelings just like anyone else.  Those who quickly criticise Christie, Bettenelli, Stephen Sessegnon etc should maybe pause before they do so.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: ScalleysDad on October 06, 2019, 08:17:02 PM
 049:gif

Well said.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Milo on October 06, 2019, 08:17:22 PM
It's an odd one isn't it. I think it's just people look for scapegoats and he was a symbol of an ill fated Prem campaign.

Really think it's best he moves on to pastures new..
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Tabby on October 06, 2019, 08:21:29 PM
I think there is a difference between being critical and hostile. People were critical of Baird and Ream, the Christie situation is on a different level.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Riversider on October 06, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
Sooner he goes the better.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Milo on October 06, 2019, 08:26:48 PM
Quote from: Tabby on October 06, 2019, 08:21:29 PM
I think there is a difference between being critical and hostile. People were critical of Baird and Ream, the Christie situation is on a different level.

No idea why people actively boo him though.. weak target? No idea. Is it actually him they are booing or the manager.. because when it was at its worst was under Ranieri (who was, I think, the worst manager we've ever had.. in my lifetime).
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: YankeeJim on October 06, 2019, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Riversider on October 06, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
Sooner he goes the better.


Classy response.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sgt Fulham on October 06, 2019, 08:28:52 PM
I wish I had access to the full article. When he makes a general statement about the fans not liking him that does slightly annoy me. The small minority may boo him when he comes on but during warm ups, really?? Despite being a fairly clueless player and weak link I hear polite, if not rapturous applause when he is subbed on. As said above, I hope we part ways in January, for his sake and ours.

As for the racism stuff, he's absolutely right in that there is no place for it. But using how Sterling and Kane are treated and putting it down to race is way off the mark. Sterling used to be criticised for his behaviour and lack of composure on the world stage. He has developed under Pep and is now a great player and well loved. Kane is loved as a top goalscorer but also gets a lot of mockery and abuse about the way he looks and speaks. It's not always about race.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Fulham 442 on October 06, 2019, 08:31:42 PM
I don't think Christie has really had the chance to prove himself at Fulham.  Having said that from what I've seen of him he hasn't been good enough but I wouldn't never boo him and certainly can't fault his effort.  He always puts in a shift. So sorry but its just not a good fit for club or player.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Weybridge White on October 06, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
To be fair he does say that he gets a lot of abuse from SOME Fulham fans.  Not all.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: ScalleysDad on October 06, 2019, 08:41:19 PM
I suspect January is going to be busy. The likes of Christie and Kebano who are not featuring at all might be off and the likes of Kmac could get a loan deal and come back on the coaching staff, probably doing the 'don't mess with me' and 'let them know you are there' modules.
Christie comes across a decent fella and smart with it so I actually hope he stays. He could do a decent job at Motspur Park.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Barrett487 on October 06, 2019, 08:45:15 PM
Quote from: Milo on October 06, 2019, 08:17:22 PM
Really think it's best he moves on to pastures new..

Sadly i think you're right, however it's a sad state of affairs that a player who has put on a Fulham shirt should feel that way. He hasn't disgraced our team, this awful booing has arisen from some poor performances. We obviously saw something in him to buy him, he just hasn't performed for us.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: fulhamben on October 06, 2019, 09:01:17 PM
I can only remember the one time that there was booing when he came on, and that was down to the fact that we were losing and we decided to sub a right back for a right back, nothing to do with the fact it was Christie, but thebpoation he played in
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: bog on October 06, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Footballers are not robots. I recall Chris Baird used to get booed when he came on as a sub until Roy arrived. They are human beings, if off form it is not their fault. It has just not worked out for Christie here. I thought he looked good when he first arrived an thought him to be a replacement for Fredericks. But it did not work out.  I hope he finds a club where it does.


092.gif   
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Twig on October 06, 2019, 09:10:17 PM
Quote from: Riversider on October 06, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
Sooner he goes the better.

Are you for real?
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Twig on October 06, 2019, 09:12:21 PM
I simply do not understand so called fans who regularly boo a player.  What on earth do they think they are achieving? Some on here have now turned their insistent ire on Betts, it's cowardly and cheap.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Robbie on October 06, 2019, 09:14:27 PM
Never had a problem with CC.  But a two page spread in the Times?!
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 06, 2019, 09:17:51 PM
Complex issue for me.

No one should get booed by their own fans, especially at Fulham. And the football community in general needs to be mindful of mental health issues to which footballers are particularly susceptible given the pressure they're under.

On the other hand, the money these lads are on, in most cases they should be able to handle a bit of verbal abuse. They can always walk away and do a 'normal' job on £20k per year if they don't like it. Plenty have it worse than Christie, eg Crouch who got called "freeeaaaaak" every week and you never hear him moan about it.

In Christie's case he just strikes me as having a chip on his shoulder TBH. With articles like this and his twitter post about his sister, among other things, he seems to embrace the limelight and confrontation rather than shy away from it. Also to mention the booing he gets at FFC in an article largely about racism seems, intentionally or unintentionally, to conflate the two and that's bad form IMO. I agree with others that it's not worked out for him at Fulham and the best thing to do is probably just go. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Jem on October 06, 2019, 09:20:49 PM
The sadest thing is if that is how he feels the fans think of him why should he play for the shirt? It's a two way street.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: hovewhite on October 06, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
Some of the comments on this board to this topic says it all,this board used to be so much nicer.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Fernhurst on October 06, 2019, 09:46:31 PM
What a sad state of affairs, never ever booded  one of our own team.

Christie deserves a new home.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Fulham 442 on October 06, 2019, 09:47:20 PM
Definitely best for all parties that he moves on asap. Certainly not in SP's plans.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Southcoastffc on October 06, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
I read the whole article. It makes for troubling and depressing reading. Christie gives a lot of examples of meeting racism and bigotry. He also says that Parker doesn't appear to 'fancy him' and hasn't told him why or what's wrong. Christie comes across as an intelligent, admirable guy. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Fulham 442 on October 06, 2019, 09:56:21 PM
I read the whole article. It makes for troubling and depressing reading. Christie gives a lot of examples of meeting racism and bigotry. He also says that Parker doesn't appear to 'fancy him' and hasn't told him why or what's wrong. Christie comes across as an intelligent, admirable guy. 

I haven't read the article but I certainly don't think SP is not selecting him for any other reason than that he just doesn't rate him.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: 70sPimlico on October 06, 2019, 09:56:48 PM
Some football fans are a bit sad really. Our sad ones seem to be slightly unhinged, middle aged to elderly blokes who just seem to get unhealthily angry about certain things. We do have a genuinely good bunch of fans and these ones do tend to stand out a bit. They seem to be quite often alone.

I've said on here before that Christie strikes me as a player that needs to be appreciated. At Barnsley, when he was warming up and and came on, the unhinged minority got to him. I said it in a post after the game. When he came on he was a shell. You could just see it and his touch was just not there. He had no chance.

I will never be able to prove this, because it won't happen but I'm certain if he came on to cheering and we sung his name etc, I think we'd see a totally different player.

I'm a bit of a softie at times and dont like to see our players in this situation
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: ALG01 on October 06, 2019, 09:57:21 PM
The problem christie has in his first season he was not good enough, that became worse in the prem and he has not thought hard enough about how to improve because he has sufficient talent. He does give up and that is unforgiveable, he is selfish and wateful when attacking, he needs to look to himself.

Having said that we should never abuse our own players on matchday, or become personal unless it is measured as i think i have just been. When he came on it was the manager not him that was at issue... we needed a different option that time not a full back.

I do think he needs a fresh start.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Southcoastffc on October 06, 2019, 10:04:54 PM
Quote from: Fulham 442 on October 06, 2019, 09:56:21 PM
I read the whole article. It makes for troubling and depressing reading. Christie gives a lot of examples of meeting racism and bigotry. He also says that Parker doesn't appear to 'fancy him' and hasn't told him why or what's wrong. Christie comes across as an intelligent, admirable guy. 

I haven't read the article but I certainly don't think SP is not selecting him for any other reason than that he jiiust doesn't rate him.
I wasn't intending to criticize Parker, and certainly not implying there's any nefarious reason for CC not playing, just reiterating what Christie is reported as saying.  As others have said, all in all a sad situation.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Lighthouse on October 06, 2019, 11:40:10 PM
Quote from: 70sPimlico on October 06, 2019, 09:56:48 PM
Some football fans are a bit sad really. Our sad ones seem to be slightly unhinged, middle aged to elderly blokes who just seem to get unhealthily angry about certain things. We do have a genuinely good bunch of fans and these ones do tend to stand out a bit. They seem to be quite often alone.

I've said on here before that Christie strikes me as a player that needs to be appreciated. At Barnsley, when he was warming up and and came on, the unhinged minority got to him. I said it in a post after the game. When he came on he was a shell. You could just see it and his touch was just not there. He had no chance.

I will never be able to prove this, because it won't happen but I'm certain if he came on to cheering and we sung his name etc, I think we'd see a totally different player.

I'm a bit of a softie at times and dont like to see our players in this situation

I really don't think that the hate and bile thrown at our players by some fans can be narrowed down to a generational thing. Some younger fans can be intolerant and quick to shout and boo. As an old Fulham fan I will admit to tutting a poor performance and even swearing under my breath. But that is as far as it goes. I think, as we see on these pages occasionally. The love of the game has been lost to wanting quick success and any failure to perform or win is met with angry exchanges. In the old days there was plenty of abuse and racist chants. Now those chants have real hatred spat out with it. Not comfortable for any fan or generation to listen to.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: WolverineFFC on October 06, 2019, 11:47:55 PM
Quote from: Fulham 442 on October 06, 2019, 09:56:21 PM
I read the whole article. It makes for troubling and depressing reading. Christie gives a lot of examples of meeting racism and bigotry. He also says that Parker doesn't appear to 'fancy him' and hasn't told him why or what's wrong. Christie comes across as an intelligent, admirable guy. 

I haven't read the article but I certainly don't think SP is not selecting him for any other reason than that he just doesn't rate him.

I am confused how Cyrus can be confused about why SP doesn't fancy him. Fulham is a possession based passing squad. Passing does not seem to be a strength for Cyrus.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Spirit of 2000 on October 07, 2019, 12:15:40 AM
Christie needs to leave the club for the good of his own career. He is capable of being a reasonable squad player at this level but not a first team option for a promotion seeking outfit
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Mince n Tatties on October 07, 2019, 07:04:36 AM
Obviously something affecting his mind at moment, that is the reason he isn't on bench,not his ability.
I know a lot will disagree with me,but I still think if his mind is right he is our best option for RB.
He is a good championship player,something is going wrong somewhere with him.
Statto might be right about him seeking the limelight, he needs to concentrate on his game here,he does OK for Ireland.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sgt Fulham on October 07, 2019, 08:06:38 AM
Unprofessional to talk about Parker imo. If he wants an answer then go ask him. See how you can improve and work your way back on to the team. Don't sit there and sulk it out in an interview.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 07, 2019, 08:07:52 AM
I am so very pleased there are people on this thread who 'absolutely' know Cyrus Christie so very much better than I do.  I have heard GJ and his sidekick make comments about players and staff of Fulham based on their personal anecdotal moments, and, of course, we may enjoy these tales just as we enjoy sofa chats on TV.   We are all free to believe these things or not, given that 100% of them could be untrue.  Its part of the media game to confirm your own identity addiction by loving it or hating it (i.e. the same thing really) and making that grey spot in your brain light up for a moment.

However, the people I have attended football matches with have never done this; we see footballers and often wonder why they don't play the same way each week; why they slag off their team mates in game; why they may play the fool during a game (my first memory of such being Rodney Marsh in goal when deputising for an injured Macedo against Villa pre-substitute era); and so on.  Like most human beings I know and have known we are a strange bunch  of animals which tolerates things in ourselves that we don't tolerate in others, things we admire about others but would never wish to be part of our natures, and the many other confusing things we do and say.

Christie is a professional footballer paid a lot of money, a lot more than I will ever want or receive.  I have never abused him, and, in as far as I can tell, he has never abused me.  He's got a few things wrong on the football pitch and helped to ruin a few Saturday nights but I have never held that against him personally.  He has access to the press for whatever tickles his fancy.  It's behind a paywall and that is where it is going to stay because I am not going to waste good money to read his second hand words in a so called newspaper.  Get real Cyrus - if you have something to say to all of us, make sure all of us can hear you.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 09:29:51 AM
Having spent some time in recent years going to a lot of American sports in the US, I don't think anyone can say its a generational thing within football, it's a toxic cultural thing. No idea why football brings the worst out of people. Not everyone, but a the vitriol in the stands and in social media is a smear on the great game.

As for Christie, not much of a fan of his footballing ability at EPL/top 2 championship level but I'm a big fan of the guy off the pitch. Good attitude, does lots to promote the game positively, lots of charity work and visiting the kids etc. The guys a good egg regardless of perception of him as a footballer. Wish it worked out better for him.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Jim© on October 07, 2019, 09:59:26 AM
I find the witch hunt against Christie pretty "unfulham".
There's people (on this thread too) that seemingly really want the incident with his sister to be proved untrue only for the fact that he could be proved as a liar.

His mentioning of SP in the article is wholly unprofessional though, looks like he's burning all of his bridges.

Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: RaySmith on October 07, 2019, 10:03:06 AM
Football  only reflects  current social attitudes,but it  is a mass participation sport with a huge following from all sections of society, though it has long been superseded as the working-man's main source of entertainment, so i don't think you can blame the game for any abuse , etc  around it.

A South African friend of  mine said to me 'what's this with football, the racism?' then he went on to say he'd been to a non -League game, and how a black player 'was clapped by all of  sides of the ground when he went off.'
But this would be the norm  in  all teams today, I think. Every team has black players, and fans  don't discriminate against them, as they did years ago, when a minority would  chant racial even against there own players.

But the minority who do have racist views seem to use this  to abuse players from the opposition, and even their own players if they  blame them for the team not doing well, as some do in Christie's case - a sad example of how social media, with it's black and white attitudes - something is either  good or bad, no room for shades of grey, scapegoats and vilifies people for any  perceived weakness or failing.

Christie is a good player, and a sensitive, decent man, and I want to see him do well, but SP not playing him at the moment is just the one of the decisions a manager has to make.



Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM
I have never barracked Christie and I will now make sure I give him a good welcome next time he plays.
However it is difficult to understand how he can be the subject of a full spread in the Times unless it is a foolish attempt to play the racist card.
It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter, it is simply a Cottage weakness that crops up from time to time in that we have to have a scapegoat for our worst ills.

A few have been subjected to this treatment over the years and suffered much more than Christie, The worst case I can remember was Bill Dodgin, in the early fifties,a good centre half and son of the manager, his dad chose to play him out of position at right back where he struggled, our fans gave him hell. Dodgin soon left for Arsenal, where he did well, but later retuned to the Cottage, did a good job as centre half and then as manager.

Christie needs to take a leaf out of Dodgin's book and get his nose to the grindstone and show us all how wrong we are about him by performing well on the pitch. Believe me even our boo boys can easily be won over by two or three really good performances.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: jarv on October 07, 2019, 11:16:59 AM
Sad commentary. Since 1960 I have never booed any Fulham player and never understood why any supporter would. I recall Steve Earle not having much fondness for supporters due to some treatment he got. Other clubs have the same problem from time to time. Les Barrett got some too, when he was a nervous, still learning teenager. I remember standing next to a guy who yelled abuse at him the whole game. Supporters frustrations with their own lives coming out.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Andy S on October 07, 2019, 11:28:12 AM
It must be very difficult for players who are not regulars in the team. It is no good looking to blame others though. You have to say that we have a vacancy at right back and it is about proving to the manager that you are the one. You do this in training by giving everything you have and if it doesn't work out you move on.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.

I mean, he's reportedly suffered from racist abuse so regardless of whether the majority criticise him for his lack of footballing skills, there are definitely some who do as sad as that is.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Fulham 442 on October 07, 2019, 12:25:11 PM
I thought he said he'd suffered racist abuse playing for Ireland not when playing for us? I've certainly never heard any. As has been posted if hes not being selected,  even for the bench, then he should speak to SP, unless his head isn't right and he needs time out? I'm sure he's a decent bloke and I've heard he does a lot of charity work, which is great. However I don't think he's a good enough player, even at this level so probably best for all if he moves on in January.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 07, 2019, 12:36:06 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.

I mean, he's reportedly suffered from racist abuse so regardless of whether the majority criticise him for his lack of footballing skills, there are definitely some who do as sad as that is.

Where are these reports - or is it just in this article?

Can't someone copy paste the article

Would be interested to hear whether he's explicitly claiming to have been racially abused by Fulham fans
Also keen to read the Parker/selection comments in full
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 07, 2019, 12:36:06 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.

I mean, he's reportedly suffered from racist abuse so regardless of whether the majority criticise him for his lack of footballing skills, there are definitely some who do as sad as that is.

Where are these reports - or is it just in this article?

Can't someone copy paste the article

Would be interested to hear whether he's explicitly claiming to have been racially abused by Fulham fans
Also keen to read the Parker/selection comments in full

I recall him mentioning on his twitter that he had received some during EPL time. In the age of social media, I have absolutely no doubt that hes been on the receiving end of racist abuse.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Texas White on October 07, 2019, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: hovewhite on October 06, 2019, 09:31:26 PM
Some of the comments on this board to this topic says it all,this board used to be so much nicer.

It's the affect of online media.. keyboard jobs worth's go to the games and act brave. No player deserves to be heckled. Never going to improve team morale. Just stupid.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 07, 2019, 12:57:20 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 12:41:08 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 07, 2019, 12:36:06 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 12:11:20 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.

I mean, he's reportedly suffered from racist abuse so regardless of whether the majority criticise him for his lack of footballing skills, there are definitely some who do as sad as that is.

Where are these reports - or is it just in this article?

Can't someone copy paste the article

Would be interested to hear whether he's explicitly claiming to have been racially abused by Fulham fans
Also keen to read the Parker/selection comments in full

I recall him mentioning on his twitter that he had received some during EPL time. In the age of social media, I have absolutely no doubt that hes been on the receiving end of racist abuse.
Just gave his Twitter a scan going back to August 2018.
Found a screenshot he posted about "black Irish poepel" (sic) from an account which seems to have been deleted (olliee.brownn) and a tweet from someone who seems to be an Irish journalist/activist (Gemma O'Doherty) that also appears to have been deleted since. No indication at all that either is related to FFC.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Carborundum on October 07, 2019, 01:10:00 PM
Football has changed since I was a kid.  Back then professional teams had small squads, which worked because there was only one sub and injured players were given a needle and sent out to do even more damage to themselves.  Many are now in possession of new joints or are nearly crippled.  Money in the game means larger squads are possible, but still the basic rule that only eleven can take the pitch at any given time applies.

So fundamentally, we now have a position where every well financed team will have their Cyrus Christie's. They are well rewarded for their limited involvement.  Naturally they want to play, but someone has to miss out.  Most of us will have experienced the message every footballer gets at one stage or another, "Sorry, but we think someone else is better".  How it shapes our lives is a matter for us and our character.

One thing I'd say about Cyrus Christie.  There was one night he gave one of the finest full back displays I have seen at the Cottage or anywhere else.  Jaw droppingly good.  He was wearing a Middlesborough shirt.  So we signed him.  We haven't seen anything like that since.  I would have given a lot to have just once played as well as he did that night. 

Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: FFC1987 on October 07, 2019, 01:25:07 PM
He might of deleted it as well then, I don't know. I just recall seeing him discuss that he's been on the back end of abuse from some of our lot. it might not be true, but I'd find it hard to believe any footballer hasn't received abuse online to be honest.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: KeenCottager on October 07, 2019, 01:29:16 PM
'Racism makes you lose love of the game - a guy did a petition to have me lynched'


Growing up, Cyrus Christie saw friends stabbed in racist attacks and he still suffers sickening abuse. He tells Henry Winter why football simply must do more

Cyrus Christie, the Fulham and Ireland full back, will never forget the times visiting his beloved uncle, the famous middleweight boxer Errol Christie at St Christopher's hospice in south London, as cancer took its toll. Errol was an inspiration to him, a man who fought bravely in the ring but also outside, standing up to racism, helping to steer young Coventry lads away from the temptations of gangland culture. Christie hated seeing this great man and sportsman so diminished at only 53. "He had over 100 tumours," Christie recalls. "When I hugged him, I could feel them pushing out of his skin. One of them was the size of a tennis ball. My dad's not emotional at all, probably the toughest guy I've ever met, but he broke down. "We played Austria the day Errol died [June 11, 2017]. While I was asleep in the afternoon before the match, I thought someone phoned me, telling me Errol had died. I woke up, but nothing on my phone. We played the game and you know this whole thing of when Aaron Ramsey scores, someone famous dies, well one of the guys on the back of the bus after the game, says, 'F***ing hell, Aaron Ramsey's scored. Who's died?' My phone rang after he finished that sentence. It was my dad. 'Errol's died,' he said and put the phone down because he was crying." Christie shakes his head. "Errol's one of the nicest guys you would ever meet." He would be proud of his nephew. Christie is well known within the game as a deep thinker, and as a professional with a social conscience. He once contacted the ticket department of his former club, Coventry City, to cover the cost of a fan's season ticket, paid for medical equipment needed by the daughter of a member of staff at Derby County, where he once played, and helps out at Brixton Soup Kitchen in south London. He also works with his former Coventry team-mate and good friend, Callum Wilson, on schemes in the city to "get kids on the right track, so that they go on and have a successful life, so they don't feel they have to go into a gang culture". Just as Errol did. As he sits in the neat Putney offices of his agent, Arete, and reflects on his career to date, Christie talks of taking inspiration from Errol, and especially the boxer's mantra of "no retreat, no surrender". "The six brothers were the only black family in that area of Coventry at the time," Christie, 27, begins. "It was very racist. They would fight with their neighbours. They had a fight every day on the way back from school, even to school, with people they used to call 'the Nazis', 'the Boot boys', because they wore Doc Martens. "The secondary school I went to was bang in the middle of two — at the time — BNP areas. We were involved in a lot of race wars at school, grown men jumping in from outside to fight all the black and Asian lads. I remember the white lads charging through, going 'get the really black one'. A lad pulled out a machete from his blazer sleeve to get someone. They sprayed deodorant in a lad's eye to blind him so they could stab him. "There was a lad born in Africa, a child soldier, his mum and dad got shot in front of him, and he was always the target, but you couldn't mess with him. They'd try to lock him in food tech and have knives to fight him but he wouldn't back down. The Asians got it a lot, they had their turbans slapped off. Their whole family came down the school, ready for a fight. It was mental." The anger spilling out was not always race-related, and sometimes came from something as innocuous as a five-a-side game that Christie's team had won. "We were in the corner picking up our stuff and this guy from the other side pulled a glass bottle out of his bag. He waved the bottle at me, and said, 'I've not got an issue with you, but if you carry on, you're going to get it'. I don't know what the issue was. He came round the side of a friend of mine, and dragged the bottle from his eye socket down to his cheek, carved it all the way through. His cheek was open. "I was lucky. A lot of people in my family are religious. They believe God guides you. I do feel someone was watching over me. That night, a lot of people went out looking for him and I got a call from this one lad. I was staying at my nan's house, and she said, 'You're not allowed out, you've got your homework'. So I told him, 'I can't disrespect my nan and it's two buses [away]'. The same lad who rang me got stabbed that night, 15 times, got mistaken for someone else. A car pulled up, he went to run, hadn't had his trainers done up properly, tripped and they got him. Punctured his lung. He survived. "There was another incident when we were all in a field, and the police came on, everyone scattered, and a person I'd been with got stabbed 25 times. That could easily have been me. "Even now, I've got mates doing 25-27 years in prison, one was going to be a professional with Aston Villa." There was plenty of talent around, including Wilson, now of Bournemouth. "We had good people around us who knew we had the ability to be footballers and pushed me and Callum towards that," he says. Like Wilson, Christie is tough, hardened by his upbringing. "That's why I'm worried for the new generation because I don't think they know how to deal with it," he says. "That experience helped us to be tougher." Going on loan from Coventry to Nuneaton Town in 2011 was "a bad experience", he recalls. "One guy was really weird. The first thing he said to me was, 'Come on, let's see your black cock'. This was a grown man, a player. I didn't know how to react. Then he said something about my mum. I wanted to fight him. I was a bit more hot-headed back then." During a career that has taken him from Coventry to Derby County, Middlesbrough and now Fulham, he has endured racist abuse. "I hear it at matches," he says. "Not regularly. I've had 'You black bastard', the N-word and been called a 'black faggot' because I had a pair of multi-coloured boots on. I've never thought of walking away but it does make you fall out of love with the game." He emphasises that he is speaking generally of his experience within football, mindful that South Yorkshire police are investigating an incident when Fulham played away to Barnsley on August 3, when Christie's sister was allegedly struck and racially abused by a Fulham fan. Twitter has become the real toxic forum. "With social media, they can hide behind certain profiles," Christie says. When representing Ireland in 2017, Christie conceded an own goal to Denmark and was immediately targeted. He received death threats and pictures of a black man hanging from a tree. "A guy started a petition on social media to have me lynched. People were liking it, agreeing to it, wanted to sign up. People questioned my eligibility to play for Ireland. My mum is Lebanese and Irish, my dad is Jamaican, and they have German on their side. I embrace all my cultures. But I got, 'F*** off back to Jamaica'." Christie's Ireland team-mate, James McClean, stood up for him — "He said, no one's skin colour should be brought into it" — and the FAI investigated. "Everyone had the screenshots over what had been said," he says. "But when I sat down with the police, from previous experience, I knew nothing was ever going to happen. They couldn't grasp the concept of it all. I said to them, 'Have you ever been turned down for an ice cream because of the colour of your skin?' There was an ice-cream man who drove round our area in Coventry who wouldn't serve the black people. We just ended the meeting." Twitter, slightly more responsive now, were less than helpful. "They came back with 'freedom of speech'," Christie recalls with a sigh. He agrees with Marcus Rashford on the need for proper verification for those wanting to post on social media. "If people are signing up they have to put in their details," he says. "You can't hide from a passport. People have to identify themselves. Then we'll see how brave they are. "People in higher authority have to do more. Do the FA do enough? Do Kick it Out do enough? It's just a matter of time before a player takes it in to their own hands. "If the guy said it in front of me, and I punch him, I'd be in trouble. I'd love to know how many would come to my face and say it. I'd actually respect them a bit more, because they've showed they got some bollocks. "I'd never respect a coward. It's just a bunch of cowards now, online, knowing they can get away with it. I don't believe anyone is born racist. It's how they are brought up. If kids tweet me racial abuse on Twitter, I say, 'All right, it's a kid.' I've replied to a few, then they've apologised. "Kano, the rapper, summed it up perfectly on his new album with if they can spray n***** on LeBron James's wall then what does that mean for everyone else?" He is referring to the song Teardrops on the Hoodies All Summer album and the lyrics "But there aint no safe haven; if they can spray paint 'N*****' on LeBron James crib". "And he's one of the biggest athletes in the world, if not the biggest, and even he's getting it," Christie says. "Look at the amount of abuse Raheem Sterling has taken. Look at the way he was always portrayed in a different light to Harry Kane." Christie is pleased that Sterling is speaking up, speaking out, but he has a caveat. "It's taken a big name like Raheem Sterling, massive Premier League star, with such a big platform, to say something for something to happen," he says. "But there are people in the Championship, League One, League Two and Conference who've had racist abuse more than Raheem but nothing is said. Other people are scared to speak up because they know it could hamper their career. I know a couple of up-and-coming athletes who run for GB, who say they can't speak up on racism because it will affect their livelihood." Is Brexit exacerbating tensions? "Yes," Christie immediately replies. In a troubled world, too many people, particularly the young, are being let down by society, which is why Christie now works with Football Beyond Borders, the education and social inclusion charity, giving 20 children who are struggling at school a chance in the fashion industry through his clothing line, Section. "They have to design a whole outfit, we get the clothes made for them, then they put on a fashion show, and present in a Dragon's Den style," Christie explains. "I always put people ahead of me. I don't think twice about it, in the position I'm in and how I grew up. Even if we grew up poor and rough I knew there was someone in a worse position. "My mum works at a school with the disadvantaged kids. She'll do anything for them. I get a call saying can she take clothes from my wardrobe? She gives them to the kids who can't afford them. It keeps me humble. "I was always taught you have to work for everything. I was always trying to make money, I used to sell cans of Coke at school, I could get you a laptop at a cheap price. One point it was 50 per cent off Apple! I knew people! My whole family was brought up on the 'no retreat, no surrender', through Errol, through his boxing." Christie knows how precious life is, but also how delicate his profession can be, how injury stalks players. "I was next to George Thorne, a fantastic player, technically brilliant, when he broke his leg," Christie recalls of their game for Derby against Ipswich Town in May 2016. Thorne was in the act of shooting when challenged by Jonathan Douglas. "People didn't realise that it was the sound of his leg that broke that everyone could hear, people thought it was the crossbar. He was screaming." Christie leant over his stricken friend. "I said, 'Oh, come on Thorney, what's up? You're all right'. He was in pain, he grabbed my hand. I turned him and his ankle stayed in the same place. I was shouting to the physios, 'come on quickly'." Thorne was out for 16 months. "I was ten metres away [on the bench] when Seamus Coleman broke his leg," Christie says of the Ireland right back's injury when tackled by Wales's Neil Taylor in March 2017. "I remember the sound of that breaking. I had to come on, after seeing that, it's not nice at all." All these experiences put in perspective the exasperation that Christie feels at not being in Scott Parker's plans at Fulham. "I respect the manager's decision, and I've nothing bad against Scotty, the gaffer, a great guy," he says. "That's the frustrating thing, I'd rather someone be honest, if he said he didn't want me. He hasn't given me a reason. Steven Sessegnon has come in and done really well, great young player. He's got Denis [Odoi] in there, who's obviously a centre back. "It's all happened after the transfer window. He knows how professional I am, I train really hard. I'm up at 7am, in a gym on my own in Guildford with one trainer before I go to training, body stuff. "After training, I go off and do an extra footballing session, away from the club. I'm pushing myself to make myself better. "I get a lot of abuse off some Fulham fans. I know they don't like me. I wouldn't say it's everyone but I got booed coming on as a sub last year, got booed in a warm-up. "I want to show them what I'm capable of. It's tough not playing. At times, I do get down, but it's in adversity you see what true characters are like. "If you want somebody to go into a dogfight, I will be at the front. I've always had that hunger. "In my family, we were always taught you have to fight. Never back down. Errol's 'no retreat, no surrender'. That's what I live by." When I sat down with police after online abuse, I knew nothing would happen. They couldn't grasp the concept of it I remember the white lads charging through, going: 'Get the really black one.' A lad pulled out a machete from his blazer sleeve to get someone. They sprayed deodorant in a lad's eyes to blind him so that they could stab him
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.
In a earlier post I cited the case of Bill Dodgin, believe me what Christie is being subjected to is minute compared to what Dodgin suffered, Dodgin was white.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Matt10 on October 07, 2019, 03:57:50 PM
Quote from: KeenCottager on October 07, 2019, 01:29:16 PM
'Racism makes you lose love of the game - a guy did a petition to have me lynched'


Growing up, Cyrus Christie saw friends stabbed in racist attacks and he still suffers sickening abuse. He tells Henry Winter why football simply must do more


Thanks for posting the article. Really good read. A testament to his character and how he lives day to day. Always been a fan of Christie, and am glad it's further validated here.

Currently, our squad is a tough one to get into. Hope he can find a spot, but if not, hope he can be successful on the pitch in any other way.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Marcel_Gecov on October 07, 2019, 04:20:18 PM
Such a shame the formatting has gone from that article. A really hard read now.

He seems like a smart guy and if I'm a bottom half Champ club Id be all over his signature in the winter.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: The Rock on October 07, 2019, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: bog on October 06, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Footballers are not robots. I recall Chris Baird used to get booed when he came on as a sub until Roy arrived. They are human beings, if off form it is not their fault. It has just not worked out for Christie here. I thought he looked good when he first arrived an thought him to be a replacement for Fredericks. But it did not work out.  I hope he finds a club where it does.


092.gif   

I think with Baird he got even more stick initially because he was brought in by Sanchez who knew him from the NI side and everyone assumed knew how to use him. Roy was really good for him.

I just haven't rated Christie. I haven't slagged him either. We just need (and have needed) better. Can be said about many of our defenders over the past number of years as well at different points.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: WokingFFC on October 07, 2019, 05:09:17 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 07, 2019, 03:57:50 PM
Quote from: KeenCottager on October 07, 2019, 01:29:16 PM
'Racism makes you lose love of the game - a guy did a petition to have me lynched'


Growing up, Cyrus Christie saw friends stabbed in racist attacks and he still suffers sickening abuse. He tells Henry Winter why football simply must do more


Thanks for posting the article. Really good read. A testament to his character and how he lives day to day. Always been a fan of Christie, and am glad it's further validated here.

Currently, our squad is a tough one to get into. Hope he can find a spot, but if not, hope he can be successful on the pitch in any other way.

100% agree Matt 10, Cyrus appears to be a very decent guy, does loads for the community and is grounded. I would never boo a player if wearing a Fulham shirt, I only go to watch and support the team that is chosen to play
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Fulham 442 on October 07, 2019, 05:30:24 PM




I think with Baird he got even more stick initially because he was brought in by Sanchez who knew him from the NI side and everyone assumed knew how to use him. Roy was really good for him.

I just haven't rated Christie. I haven't slagged him either. We just need (and have needed) better. Can be said about many of our defenders over the past number of years as well at different points.

Yes i agree Baird got dog's abuse from our fans repeatedly in the early days. I remember being at Chelsea away and a section of our crowd booed when his name was read out on the team sheet. My son and I turned to each other both looking incredulous!
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 07, 2019, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.
In a earlier post I cited the case of Bill Dodgin, believe me what Christie is being subjected to is minute compared to what Dodgin suffered, Dodgin was white.
You may not accept it but its here. Don't think that racists for one minute have any logic. They will abuse one person and cheer another of the same colour within minutes. It's the words and actions they use that make them racist. If you haven't seen or heard it at Fulham then well done, but I have and it's around. Small as I say but I've been involved in questioning about witnessing it so don't say it isn't there, because it is. Quite frankly there are a few on here who skirt very close to being that. They may not see it, may not even think what they are writing is in their view racist, but the undertone is there.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: HV71 on October 07, 2019, 06:01:23 PM
Agree MJG - in any form racism is vile and simply has to be condemned. Some on here should Rethink their comments.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 07, 2019, 06:19:06 PM
Booing our own players is wrong. I cringed at the crowd's reaction when Ranieri made that sub (was it Christie on for Schurrle IIRC?) and again when Kamara got booed after missing that penalty. IIRC Martin also got booed after his 'strike action'.

Similarly racism is wrong and I fully accept most on here who've been going to games for many years will have heard something racist from a Fulham fan at some point. I have.

Nonetheless, I see no reason to conflate the two things. That is, unless someone is claiming they witnessed the booing of Christie and then the persons doing it turned to them and said "we dont care that he's playing poorly, we're just booing him cos he's black."

Also FWIW I retract my previous criticism of Christie for ostensibly conflating the two things. Having read the article it sounds like he treats them as separate issues and just happens to have been asked questions about both things in the interview
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sting of the North on October 07, 2019, 06:41:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 07, 2019, 06:19:06 PM
Booing our own players is wrong. I cringed at the crowd's reaction when Ranieri made that sub (was it Christie on for Schurrle IIRC?) and again when Kamara got booed after missing that penalty. IIRC Martin also got booed after his 'strike action'.

Similarly racism is wrong and I fully accept most on here who've been going to games for many years will have heard something racist from a Fulham fan at some point. I have.

Nonetheless, I see no reason to conflate the two things. That is, unless someone is claiming they witnessed the booing of Christie and then the persons doing it turned to them and said "we dont care that he's playing poorly, we're just booing him cos he's black."

Also FWIW I retract my previous criticism of Christie for ostensibly conflating the two things. Having read the article it sounds like he treats them as separate issues and just happens to have been asked questions about both things in the interview

The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive though. If someone thinks a player plays poorly and then uses racist language towards the player as a way of expressing the dislike, the underlying reason to abusing the player is first and foremost that he isn't playing well but that doesn't make the words less racist. Not saying that is the case here though.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 07, 2019, 06:48:37 PM
Thanks to KeenCottager for posting the article.  It is a bit tougher  to read without the paragraphs but it is worth getting through it if you can.  It is a very clear article about unmistakable racism and it is of value to understand where Cyrus Christie is and has been coming from.  I think, if anything, the article would have been better without the present issues Christie has at FFC regarding game time, since that should have absolutely nothing to do with racism.   

I was taught at a very young age that we must always hear and accept a victim's account of anything that involves some form of attack on them or abuse of them because it teaches us respect and gives us an ability to stop certain things from becoming ever worse by recognising the earliest signs of any unhealthy prejudice.   
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Peabody on October 07, 2019, 06:50:31 PM
Quote from: YankeeJim on October 06, 2019, 08:28:10 PM
Quote from: Riversider on October 06, 2019, 08:26:06 PM
Sooner he goes the better.


Classy response.

What do you expect from Riversider,, very rarely has a good word to say about Fulham.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:32:53 PM
Quote from: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Why be so damning? He's not getting much game time and that should be enough to satisfy your need for hate. If he leaves you'll have to find another player to boo !!
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:40:51 PM
Quote from: The Rock on October 07, 2019, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: bog on October 06, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Footballers are not robots. I recall Chris Baird used to get booed when he came on as a sub until Roy arrived. They are human beings, if off form it is not their fault. It has just not worked out for Christie here. I thought he looked good when he first arrived an thought him to be a replacement for Fredericks. But it did not work out.  I hope he finds a club where it does.


092.gif   

I think with Baird he got even more stick initially because he was brought in by Sanchez who knew him from the NI side and everyone assumed knew how to use him. Roy was really good for him.

I just haven't rated Christie. I haven't slagged him either. We just need (and have needed) better. Can be said about many of our defenders over the past number of years as well at different points.

Are you saying that Bairdy suffered racial abuse? I neither accept, or recall that
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 07, 2019, 09:37:00 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on October 07, 2019, 06:41:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 07, 2019, 06:19:06 PM
Booing our own players is wrong. I cringed at the crowd's reaction when Ranieri made that sub (was it Christie on for Schurrle IIRC?) and again when Kamara got booed after missing that penalty. IIRC Martin also got booed after his 'strike action'.

Similarly racism is wrong and I fully accept most on here who've been going to games for many years will have heard something racist from a Fulham fan at some point. I have.

Nonetheless, I see no reason to conflate the two things. That is, unless someone is claiming they witnessed the booing of Christie and then the persons doing it turned to them and said "we dont care that he's playing poorly, we're just booing him cos he's black."

Also FWIW I retract my previous criticism of Christie for ostensibly conflating the two things. Having read the article it sounds like he treats them as separate issues and just happens to have been asked questions about both things in the interview

The two things don't have to be mutually exclusive though. If someone thinks a player plays poorly and then uses racist language towards the player as a way of expressing the dislike, the underlying reason to abusing the player is first and foremost that he isn't playing well but that doesn't make the words less racist. Not saying that is the case here though.

True, but even such a small overlap as that hasn't been specifically alleged on this thread (so far) and in any case, it wouldn't IMO justify reframing the debate in the way some are seeking to. It would be a bit like a committee tasked with investigating the severity and root causes of the lateness of British trains finding out that a conductor once, when confronted with a complaint from a BAME commuter about the late arrival of a train, used a racist term towards her. Assuming that was an isolated incident, would it justify reframing the investigation as an investigation into racism on British trains, or even making racism a significant feature of their review? No, they'd accept that despite that incident, late trains have substantially nothing to do with racism.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Peabody on October 08, 2019, 08:19:03 AM
I seem to remember, that when Barry Hayles first joined us and didn't score for quite a few games, (his first goal was against Southampton in the 3rd round of the cup) he took quite a lot of abuse on the old offal. How short sighted was that? Jazz Richards was in the same boat. The abuse he got on here was totally unacceptable. Whatever these players ability, they are Fulham Players and as such, deserve our support.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: 70sPimlico on October 08, 2019, 09:28:02 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.

I think booing is a very strange thing for anyone to do. Unless you're at a pantomime.

But to aggresively boo another human being is just odd.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Dodgin on October 08, 2019, 09:46:43 AM
Just read the article, he is a decent man. The thought of booing one of our players is dreadful.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 08, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
I tend to agree with this.
I don't think I've ever said I have never booed anyone, I'm sure i have and i certainly have shouted a few swear words at players. More out of frustration than actual dislike. I can count on one hand the players over 40 plus years I have really hated and disliked with a passion.
There are 100's a probably didn't rate that's for sure and there is no player you could find something wrong with.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 08, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
I tend to agree with this.
I don't think I've ever said I have never booed anyone, I'm sure i have and i certainly have shouted a few swear words at players. More out of frustration than actual dislike. I can count on one hand the players over 40 plus years I have really hated and disliked with a passion.
There are 100's a probably didn't rate that's for sure and there is no player you could find something wrong with.

Mark Cooper - truly odious & totally useless.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Matt10 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:52 PM
To me, you're judged by how you treat others. Booing someone is pretty low, and whatever validations you need to convince yourself that it's okay, understand you may have deeper issues than supporting Fulham.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 08, 2019, 12:28:48 PM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 12:00:09 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 08, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on October 08, 2019, 07:58:38 AM
I think it's pathetic for fans to boo players. A players job is be "the best player at Fulham in his position" and "the best player he can be". If a player is the best player at Fulham in his position, but the worst player in the premier league in that position, then that is not his fault.
If you have paid a lot of your hard earned money for a seat to watch a game then I think you are entitled to express your feelings about what you  are seeing regardless of how it impacts on others, provided you stay within the bounds of the law of the land.  But you should dread the coming of the day booing is made unlawful.
I tend to agree with this.
I don't think I've ever said I have never booed anyone, I'm sure i have and i certainly have shouted a few swear words at players. More out of frustration than actual dislike. I can count on one hand the players over 40 plus years I have really hated and disliked with a passion.
There are 100's a probably didn't rate that's for sure and there is no player you could find something wrong with.

Mark Cooper - truly odious & totally useless.
Exhibit number 1
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: filham on October 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: charlieFFC on October 08, 2019, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:32:53 PM
Quote from: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Why be so damning? He's not getting much game time and that should be enough to satisfy your need for hate. If he leaves you'll have to find another player to boo !!

He doesn't want to be here. He is not at the level required to play here. Whilst I have sympathy for him at times and despise those who have racially abused this doesn't mean I have to want him to be in the starting 11 nor do I think he is right to feature week in week out about Fulham's manager or fans.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: filham on October 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.


Yup ... as above Mark Cooper, white and useless, Cyrus Christie black & useless - useless because of his colour, no. Kevin Hoddy, Jim Hicks - total garbage & white, Michael Mison & Trevor Lee ditto but black - colour irrelevant. Louis Saha, Rufus Brevett, Barry Hayles, Boa Morte, absolute legends .... ditto Edwin Van Der Sar, Chris Coleman, Gordon Davies & Simon Morgan. It shouldn't matter a jot the race or creed of any player - you should feel no less willing to praise them or criticise them either way.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 01:46:20 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:52 PM
To me, you're judged by how you treat others. Booing someone is pretty low, and whatever validations you need to convince yourself that it's okay, understand you may have deeper issues than supporting Fulham.
Booing was first observed in ancient Greece as a crowd/audience commentary on a theatrical performance that stank and was the opposite of a cheer; it was considered a civic duty to participate in making this judgement.  It is well observed throughout history as the opposite of applause, and was to be especially expected by stage performers who were being paid by their audience to appear.  I would guess that most people who are alive and kicking have personal issues of some kind and those that say they don't are either lying or in denial.  Whether those issues drive someone to boo or cheer is not a proven theory. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sting of the North on October 08, 2019, 01:47:20 PM
Quote from: charlieFFC on October 08, 2019, 01:44:26 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:32:53 PM
Quote from: charlieFFC on October 07, 2019, 09:41:23 AM
self-fulfilling prophecy though. He plays poorly every single game and every single game will pull stunts like this - moaning on whatever forum is available to him. The sooner he leaves the better for everyone involved.
Why be so damning? He's not getting much game time and that should be enough to satisfy your need for hate. If he leaves you'll have to find another player to boo !!

He doesn't want to be here. He is not at the level required to play here. Whilst I have sympathy for him at times and despise those who have racially abused this doesn't mean I have to want him to be in the starting 11 nor do I think he is right to feature week in week out about Fulham's manager or fans.

Is he doing that week in and week out. I must have missed that.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 01:51:22 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 01:46:20 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2019, 12:21:52 PM
To me, you're judged by how you treat others. Booing someone is pretty low, and whatever validations you need to convince yourself that it's okay, understand you may have deeper issues than supporting Fulham.
Booing was first observed in ancient Greece as a crowd/audience commentary on a theatrical performance that stank and was the opposite of a cheer; it was considered a civic duty to participate in making this judgement.  It is well observed throughout history as the opposite of applause, and was to be especially expected by stage performers who were being paid by their audience to appear.  I would guess that most people who are alive and kicking have personal issues of some kind and those that say they don't are either lying or in denial.  Whether those issues drive someone to boo or cheer is not a proven theory.


Yep - rotten tomatoes syndrome, chucked at performers to let them know their efforts are poor. I don't condone booing of players per se but certain individuals - my example being that of Mark Cooper probably justified it in some part at least. If I'm rubbish at work my boss won't applaud me & encourage - as is the case with most people who would receive a warning prior to the 'tin tac'
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Riversider on October 08, 2019, 02:33:30 PM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: filham on October 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.


Yup ... as above Mark Cooper, white and useless, Cyrus Christie black & useless - useless because of his colour, no. Kevin Hoddy, Jim Hicks - total garbage & white, Michael Mison & Trevor Lee ditto but black - colour irrelevant. Louis Saha, Rufus Brevett, Barry Hayles, Boa Morte, absolute legends .... ditto Edwin Van Der Sar, Chris Coleman, Gordon Davies & Simon Morgan. It shouldn't matter a jot the race or creed of any player - you should feel no less willing to praise them or criticise them either way.


Soo true, it's a shame that one or two are struggling to understand any of that, nobody on here, not one single person (be honest now) wants to see Cyrus Christie play at right back for the rest of the season,
That has absolutely far call to do with the colour of his skin, and everything to do with his lack of footballing ability, he's not exactly Paul Parker or Ryan Fredericks is he ?
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: RaySmith on October 08, 2019, 03:10:01 PM
I think pro sport is different from a 'normal' job - so much to do with confidence and motivation,  brutally competitive in a way that most  jobs aren't, and  performed before a paying public, - booing players, who are probably doing their best, only undermines them rather than spurs them on.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 08, 2019, 03:12:21 PM
Quote from: Riversider on October 08, 2019, 02:33:30 PM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on October 08, 2019, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: filham on October 08, 2019, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:38:40 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 02:50:13 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 07, 2019, 12:03:44 PM
Quote from: filham on October 07, 2019, 10:59:11 AM

It really needs to be made absolutely clear that there is not any element of racism in this matter,
But its not clear and there is an element i'm sorry to say. It may be small but you can't just sweep it away by saying there is not any.
No, I don't accept that. It is as clear as it can be. Think of the different players over the years that  have been picked on by our boo boys, hard to think of a black one. We absolutely worshiped the likes of Boa , Barry Hayles, Sess., Leroy Rossenior and Terry Angus ( Oh how we loved Terry), now the first black player to suffer from the boo boys
and it is an excuse to fly the racism flag.

But if they hadn't played well and got regular games that may not have been the case.
If they hadn't, played well and were getting regular games then that would have been the reason for the booing, nothing to do with the fact that they were black, They all played well and became our heroes because they played well, again nothing to do with the fact that they were black.

No way must we practice racism but we also have to be careful about inverse racism , that is using racism as the excuse for other common ills. The habit of occasionally picking on players having a poor spell at the Cottage is not racist, it is common to both black and white players.


Yup ... as above Mark Cooper, white and useless, Cyrus Christie black & useless - useless because of his colour, no. Kevin Hoddy, Jim Hicks - total garbage & white, Michael Mison & Trevor Lee ditto but black - colour irrelevant. Louis Saha, Rufus Brevett, Barry Hayles, Boa Morte, absolute legends .... ditto Edwin Van Der Sar, Chris Coleman, Gordon Davies & Simon Morgan. It shouldn't matter a jot the race or creed of any player - you should feel no less willing to praise them or criticise them either way.


Soo true, it's a shame that one or two are struggling to understand any of that, nobody on here, not one single person (be honest now) wants to see Cyrus Christie play at right back for the rest of the season,
That has absolutely far call to do with the colour of his skin, and everything to do with his lack of footballing ability, he's not exactly Paul Parker or Ryan Fredericks is he ?
No one has said that because he is black is the reason he is being criticised.
BUT what some are struggling to understand is that some comments (not necessarily here) both verbal and written mention his colour. That's is the element of any criticism that has no place.
There have been mentions in recent times on here that refer to a players colour an the reason why they may have underperformed, that is the type of thing I mentioned earlier in this topic.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 08, 2019, 04:04:21 PM
In a manner of speaking Cyrus has all the cards - aces and trumps - in his hand, as do all his team mates, to change things around and make himself indispensable as a certain starter.  He has to be better than the other players vying for his spot.  That was the same situation he faced when he first signed with FFC.  Fredericks lived up to his professional status and gave his all to secure promotion despite having a contract lined up on the other side of London.  Fredericks's performances never dropped off. 

Last season Cyrus had reasonable chances to shine in the PL and you can shine even in the worse team ever, although it is much harder to do so.  His performances were not what was required and he was not alone.  Others who had been first team regulars in our promotion run also suffered perhaps even more unfairly.  This season his target must be to be better than other right sided players in the formation that the coaches have a preference for.   He needs to catch the eye of his coaches and be aware that his team mates may likely up their game too.  This cannot be new to him after so many years in the game.  I do hope he can show something truly better than what we have seen so far because that is all anyone can ask of first team players - that they are worthy fixtures and fittings that cannot be cast aside.  If he pushes hard then SS and DO will have to get better too.  It's a win-win for FFC.   
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Logicalman on October 08, 2019, 05:51:06 PM
I read the article as published on here, and I cannot see where Cyrus actually directs any of his comments regarding racism directly at Fulham fans. The journo mentions the alleged abuse towards his sister, not Cyrus, he basically concentrates on his childhood, growing up, family values and the incident concerning when he played for Ireland.

He does, however, go into detail concerning his and others experiences and how he sees society's attitude towards racism, and he is correct in that (though I would take him to task on the quote 'Have you ever been turned down for an ice cream because of the colour of your skin?', because I have, not an ice-cream but at a Subway where the staff totally ignored me whilst other customers of a different skin colour were served immediately - even when I was the only one left I was ignored), but it does work both ways, perhaps not as prevalent but it happens.

I was not impressed when the article then touches on SP and why Cyrus isn't being picked regularly, as, given the tone of the preceding contents, there is a subtle inference that somehow all this is linked which I am unsure if that was Cyrus's intention.

Personally I have nothing against Cyrus, Sess, Odoi or Mitro any further than I have against Bryan, Ream or Arter, they are all players that wear the Fulham shirt and that earns my respect. Where my feelings towards the players differ, however, is when I feel either they are not good enough, or are not trying enough, for the club and fans, and I absolutely reserve my right to express those feelings in any fashion within the laws of the land. I have never booed a Fulham player, and doubt I ever would, and I do not condone those that do, be neither do I condemn them, I just feel it's not the way I wish to express myself.   
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: bigalffc on October 08, 2019, 06:20:52 PM
I hope Cyrus has a great career. He seems to be a decent chap, things just haven't worked for him with us. No booing folks, let him move on in peace.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: RaySmith on October 08, 2019, 06:43:14 PM
I think the  story of his sister being abused implies that there is an element of racism in some fans  abuse of Christie, though i don't think that the article implies that there is racism in Fulham management's attitude towards him - well, he's been dropped for another black player, with  yet another black player also ahead of him in  his position.

Fans are free to boo if they want, and to abuse players online, but I just think all this  is counter productive re a player's performance - it's more likely to make them play even worse imo. Especially booing and abuse during a game, though this is hardly a new thing.

But extreme abuse of your own players, even away from the actual game, and picking on every  fault,and ignoring the positive, does seem a sign of the present times, when vitriol and abuse has become  common in public debate, and everything is  either good or bad, black or white, one side or the other, and there's often an undercurrent of racism.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Twig on October 09, 2019, 07:57:04 AM
Quote from: Logicalman on October 08, 2019, 05:51:06 PM
I read the article as published on here, and I cannot see where Cyrus actually directs any of his comments regarding racism directly at Fulham fans. The journo mentions the alleged abuse towards his sister, not Cyrus, he basically concentrates on his childhood, growing up, family values and the incident concerning when he played for Ireland.

He does, however, go into detail concerning his and others experiences and how he sees society's attitude towards racism, and he is correct in that (though I would take him to task on the quote 'Have you ever been turned down for an ice cream because of the colour of your skin?', because I have, not an ice-cream but at a Subway where the staff totally ignored me whilst other customers of a different skin colour were served immediately - even when I was the only one left I was ignored), but it does work both ways, perhaps not as prevalent but it happens.

I was not impressed when the article then touches on SP and why Cyrus isn't being picked regularly, as, given the tone of the preceding contents, there is a subtle inference that somehow all this is linked which I am unsure if that was Cyrus's intention.

Personally I have nothing against Cyrus, Sess, Odoi or Mitro any further than I have against Bryan, Ream or Arter, they are all players that wear the Fulham shirt and that earns my respect. Where my feelings towards the players differ, however, is when I feel either they are not good enough, or are not trying enough, for the club and fans, and I absolutely reserve my right to express those feelings in any fashion within the laws of the land. I have never booed a Fulham player, and doubt I ever would, and I do not condone those that do, be neither do I condemn them, I just feel it's not the way I wish to express myself.   

This.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: charlieFFC on October 09, 2019, 09:47:41 AM
There is no difference between how fans react to Christie and someone like Senderos when he played here.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: jayffc on October 09, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested. Thats just not how it works.
If being rich was a barometer for your ability to maintain your mental health. The richest people in the world would be perfectly fine, never depressed and never giving a crap about what anyone else thinks....and yet, the evidence suggests this is far from the case. Plenty of very successful and rich people committing suicide and depressed all over the place. Life is about much more.

We are, at our essence, tribal/communal beings. Humans thrive on connection, there are issues there with belonging and being accepted (by the "pack") ...its a large reason Mitro stayed, rejected as not good enough at Newcastle he comes here, immediately feels he belongs, stays despite lucrative offers to move on even when playing at a lower level.


Suggesting someone who grew up loving the job they do and have largely only ever wanted to do. Should have to give it all up because some morons with anger issues that need attending to, scream and holla out how f***ing s*** he is every week and boo him at every opportunity is again, a sad state of looking at things to me. For me ,the more the convo is had around mental health, the more people may work out its not the best way to behave or indeed helpful for anyone.

Yes footballers need support to reaffirm that hey should not take too personally the things shouted from the stands, but theres only so much a human can take. Thats how humans function....ask and performer, they can read 100 reviews and the 1 that sticks with them is the overtly negative one sadly....its a very human thing.

Away from the ground Ive said I dont feel christie is right for this club. He hasnt played well enough to start and certainly its time to part ways for all of us. But I wish him as a man well doing the thing he loves. I hope he finds, somewhere ,a platform to perform and to be welcomed into the team with open arms. Perhaps in that circumstance he'll find some much better form again.


On a side note Crouch has spoken on his podcast about it being really tough sometimes hearing all those jokes from the stands. Especially for his parents sitting in the ground. He has a fun demeanour but you can tell its not always so breezy to shrug off abuse. Also that abuse was coming from opposing teams fans, thats a key difference mentally.

But anyway.
All the best to him, as I say, I hope he finds a happier place in life.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sting of the North on October 09, 2019, 12:49:07 PM
Very well said jayffc

Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 09, 2019, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: jayffc on October 09, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested.

Where did you read that just out of interest?
If it was on this thread i must have missed it.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.   
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 09, 2019, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.   

Hmmm, not sure I could agree with that TM. Potentially a very dangerous oversimplification IMO. 

FWIW I entirely agree with jayffc that even "wealthy" people like footballers are susceptible to mental health problems. Yes money makes your life easier but it can give rise to greater social pressure and expectations.

My issue with jayffc's post is just that he seemed to be manufacturing a disagreement with a comment that no one had made on this thread. I wondered if he was perhaps referring to my post on page 1, but if he was, then he didn't read that post properly. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: FFC1987 on October 09, 2019, 03:32:20 PM
Wouldn't a factor in the rich vs poor mental health debate be access and affordability of care as well though?
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sting of the North on October 09, 2019, 03:52:42 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 09, 2019, 03:32:20 PM
Wouldn't a factor in the rich vs poor mental health debate be access and affordability of care as well though?

Most definitely in my opinion. Ideally as many factors as possible is considered since it is rarely one single aspect that is the only determining factor behind something. Far too often over simplification leads a debate in the wrong direction or sidetracks it (not saying this is the case with Toshes post, haven't read the report referred to). Just look at debates about equal pay and how the "facts" are used in all matter of situations, with many just accepting it.

Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 09, 2019, 04:21:05 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 09, 2019, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: jayffc on October 09, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested.

Where did you read that just out of interest?
If it was on this thread i must have missed it.
maybe he means this from earlier..

"on the other hand, the money these lads are on, in most cases they should be able to handle a bit of verbal abuse." 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 09, 2019, 04:40:07 PM
Quote from: MJG on October 09, 2019, 04:21:05 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 09, 2019, 01:20:23 PM
Quote from: jayffc on October 09, 2019, 11:36:18 AM
Suggesting theres a certain amount of money that stops you from caring about something as fundamental to humans as vocal abuse, vitriolic rejection and other things that effect your mental health shows incredibly low level of understanding about how humans function, I'm genuinely saddened to read it suggested.

Where did you read that just out of interest?
If it was on this thread i must have missed it.
maybe he means this from earlier..

"on the other hand, the money these lads are on, in most cases they should be able to handle a bit of verbal abuse."

I strongly suspect he does. However that would mean he entirely overlooked the preceding sentence, "the football community in general needs to be mindful of mental health issues to which footballers are particularly susceptible", and the qualification "in most cases".
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 09, 2019, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.   

Hmmm, not sure I could agree with that TM. Potentially a very dangerous oversimplification IMO. 

FWIW I entirely agree with jayffc that even "wealthy" people like footballers are susceptible to mental health problems. Yes money makes your life easier but it can give rise to greater social pressure and expectations.

My issue with jayffc's post is just that he seemed to be manufacturing a disagreement with a comment that no one had made on this thread. I wondered if he was perhaps referring to my post on page 1, but if he was, then he didn't read that post properly. 
Matters not one jot whether you agree with it or not, those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings.  And, historically, it has always been true that psychiatric medicine has catered more and better for affluent members of society than those who would have been locked away in an asylum on the first signs of being a problem whether they were lunatics or not. 

Many, many books have been written on the subject (Freud and his early wealthy 'patients' is a good starting place).  My only desire to to present a balanced view of a very controversial subject which is badly misunderstood by the vast majority of us including many of those practising medicine for the NHS etc. and is not served by vitriol condemning vitriol IMHO.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: The Rock on October 09, 2019, 06:35:03 PM
Quote from: Barrett487 on October 07, 2019, 08:40:51 PM
Quote from: The Rock on October 07, 2019, 04:48:07 PM
Quote from: bog on October 06, 2019, 09:06:40 PM
Footballers are not robots. I recall Chris Baird used to get booed when he came on as a sub until Roy arrived. They are human beings, if off form it is not their fault. It has just not worked out for Christie here. I thought he looked good when he first arrived an thought him to be a replacement for Fredericks. But it did not work out.  I hope he finds a club where it does.


092.gif   

I think with Baird he got even more stick initially because he was brought in by Sanchez who knew him from the NI side and everyone assumed knew how to use him. Roy was really good for him.

I just haven't rated Christie. I haven't slagged him either. We just need (and have needed) better. Can be said about many of our defenders over the past number of years as well at different points.

Are you saying that Bairdy suffered racial abuse? I neither accept, or recall that

I was talking about the reaction PURELY to his football playing ability ONLY. Baird was booed for months on end before Roy set him straight. End of.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 09, 2019, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings

What is that reason then? Everyone has a narrative they want to push, whether it's Donald Trump or the Samaritans. When you have an increase in reports of mental health problems, one group will say it means people have become less robust, another group will say it means the world's become a tougher place to live, and another group will say it just means people are more likely to disclose mental health problems. They can't all be right.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 07:15:32 PM
Beautiful friendships are often based on the fact that the players complement each other with great economy and satisfaction, so that there is a maximum yield with a minimum effort from the games they play with each other.   (Eric Berne 1910-1970)

Berne was an American Psychiatrist who is said to be the Father of Transactional Analysis (i.e. I am okay, you are okay) and was given almost heretic status by his professional colleagues because he argued against many of the practices he saw them perform.  His book 'The Games People Play' is inspirational but please do not take my word for it, just read it.  Although simple in concept it's quite hard to put his advice into practice, as he explains within the text, but it makes you see everything very differently and will change your mind about what mental illness really is and means. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 09, 2019, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings

What is that reason then? Everyone has a narrative they want to push, whether it's Donald Trump or the Samaritans. When you have an increase in reports of mental health problems, one group will say it means people have become less robust, another group will say it means the world's become a tougher place to live, and another group will say it just means people are more likely to disclose mental health problems. They can't all be right.
But they can all be wrong.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Logicalman on October 09, 2019, 09:14:48 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 01:54:39 PM
Just in the interests of balance within this thread, this is what is said about suicides, mental health and incomes by the Samaritans. 

"Men in the lowest social class, living in the most deprived areas, are up to 10 times more at risk of suicide then those in the highest social class living in the most affluent areas." 

The report goes on to say that mental health experts know much less about the main sources of mental illness among lower income groups than they know of the sources of mental health issues in wealthier groups which are considerably better documented and more publicly discussed.

That is a very interesting quote, not the veracity of the quote itself, but the overall context.

Are they stating at the time of the incident that the demographic are true, or that such past demographics also play into the overall circumstances?  Any further indication of the publication/source please?
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: bobbo on October 09, 2019, 09:46:18 PM
It certainly gets to m to hear about that article. I can put my hand on my heart and say I've never in 61 years supporting ever booed any Fulham player or team. Maybe the opposition when I was younger .
Very sad for the lad he's not my favourite right back but I'm not about to criticise him.
He's better than I ever was .
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: The Rational Fan on October 09, 2019, 11:47:18 PM
Quote from: Statto on October 09, 2019, 07:11:08 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
those are the findings of the Samaritans who I would suggest have a pretty good reason to be precise in their findings

What is that reason then? Everyone has a narrative they want to push, whether it's Donald Trump or the Samaritans. When you have an increase in reports of mental health problems, one group will say it means people have become less robust, another group will say it means the world's become a tougher place to live, and another group will say it just means people are more likely to disclose mental health problems. They can't all be right.

They can all be right; I think all three are correct a) people have become less robust, b) the world has become more complex (ie tougher to understand) and c) people are more likely to disclose mental illiness.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Sting of the North on October 10, 2019, 12:37:36 AM
I agree with both Toshes and TRF. They can all be wrong or they can all be right, or somewhere in between. Only way it is impossible for them all to be right is if either one explicitly contradicts one or two of the others, or if we assume that there can only be one single answer.

For what it's worth, I also agree with Statto's point though, that more often than not (basically always) there is some kind of underlying agenda however well meaning that is. To be truly objective and cover all aspects of a problem is a really difficult task in most cases. When dealing with things as complex as mental illnesses I would argue that it is basically impossible. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 10, 2019, 08:32:31 AM
A Samaritans report was commissioned in 2016 which confirmed long held observations about the links between suicide and social deprivation, poverty, and the absence of support mechanisms. There are many of these reports to be read through media and many are available on the Samaritans websites. It was once said that Samaritans speak to the minority of suicidal people but the health service sees the majority, but the real figures are skewed by what I mentioned earlier - the more affluent you are the more likely it is you'll receive support if you seek it.  This is borne out by almost all the research. 

I think it is fanciful to believe mental illness is more prevalent now.  It has always been there and many people (like Dr Berne mentioned earlier) would say we are all ill because we choose to be ill and the saner people are the ones most likely to seek escape because the rest of us think they are mad.  The world is less free than is was in my childhood, more regimented, more dictated by money, but people are more 'abused' in unpleasant ways than they ever were in my youth.  I think we have regressed a long way in the last forty or so years and it is sad.  The reason?  Lack of depth of understanding because we communicate in superficial ways like I am doing here.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: RaySmith on October 10, 2019, 09:12:05 AM
I definitely agree that  the 'rise' in  mental-illness is because it's more acceptable to seek treatment for this, with a lot more  publicity - sympathetic publicity, rather than  seeing mental health problems as weakness. Now it seems you can hardly move for a celebrity  disclosing  a history of anxiety or depression, and speaking frankly about it in the media,which has many programmes  addressing this subject.
A lot different from when i was young.

But at the same time, we have had  ferocious cuts in NHS services, and local government facilities, like drop -in centres, and emergency care, which  have  greatly affected actual care for those  suffering from these, often seriously disabling, problems, even life threatening - with suicide rates  growing in some areas, and also  deaths through drug use.

I agree, and think it obvious, that the most socially disadvantaged are more likely to suffer from  mental ill health,and are also less likely to get suitable treatment, and also less likely to present to the doctor- if they can even get an appointment.
A lot of drug and alcohol addiction is people self medicating for mental health problems, especially working-class men, and black people have also long been  over represented in figures of those  being treated for  mental-illness. And i don't think it's rocket science to see the reasons.

Much has been made of men not wanting to go to the doctor when they have problems, but you never hear, that doctors have traditionally been much less sympathetic to men presenting with these problems, or that  the way people  treated for mental health problems  is, historically, rubbish ( I would use a far stronger term in conversation), and that the system has always been abusive towards such people, going right back to the  asylums of the 19th century.

But you only of hear middle-class accounts of  sympathetic treatment, but the reality is far different  for most people, especially if they come from  a disadvantaged background, and in the areas where they live there is a lot of pressure on the system, which is  struggling to cope.

But, of course , having money doesn't stop you getting disabling mental health problems, and i think there is a lot of pressure being a pro footballer, and  you're not even  able to talk about it - because  everyone thinks you're so lucky and privileged.

Though, at least if you are well off, you can pay for the best treatment, but I do think it's been traditionally hard for footballers to  seek, and obtain,  help for their problems, unlike cricketers , say - which i think is a lot to do with he social class background of those involved in  playing and running cricket, compared to football.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Logicalman on October 10, 2019, 01:28:29 PM
toshes mate & RaySmith great observations, and very true regarding the apparent 'rise' in mental illness, like most things, SM has allowed a greater reporting medium to become effective in understanding the scale of the issues nowadays, and, like crime reporting, has given the perception of a 'rise', whether it be true or not.
Interesting snippet from the BBC this morning regarding obesity in children, it was found that it is most prevalent in poorer areas. Though they do not provide specific breakdowns of this, the main story links obesity to nutrition and the greater access to 'unhealthy options', I would insert fast food and it's cheapness, as being the main cause. Given that, then it is not a far jump to say that obesity in adults is also an issue in self-worthiness/esteem, and that is also linked to suicides.  So, are we now producing a generation more susceptible to the risk of suicide?
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: We Are Premier League on October 10, 2019, 11:23:05 PM
A generation of softies
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 11, 2019, 09:30:53 AM
@logicalman

I think the overriding fault with social media is how the search algorithms are now designed to push particular 'agendas' which are influenced by corporate, commercial and political interests, and those interests are not healthy by any sense of the word.  Originally the internet had an array of capabilities which used key words in search expressions which allowed both expansion of the search expression as well as narrowing, meaning you could then understand more about what you were really looking for rather than less.

That ceases to happen in modern browsers meaning that large amounts of very useful information are buried deep in the so called 'dark web' where the main search engines refuse to go.  There are browsers and search engines that do go deeper but these have to use tunneling algorithms to connect to sites with these hidden treasures from a time when information wasn't priced.  Such browsers are frowned upon by Governmental security agencies and your machine will become a target of their interest if you install them.  That in itself tells you all you need to know as to why society has made such a mess of what was to be one of the greatest information sources of all time - the internet a true gatepost to freedom as it once was.

My own view is that human beings need support frameworks that involve person to person interface and since such interfaces involve time and money spent by someone they are eliminated at the very beginning of any trawl to fish out expenses that can be avoided.  We have created a very hostile environment for anyone who doesn't easily want to conform, hence more people become unhappy and can only find solace in those who feel the same way.  It confounds me as to why anthropogenic climate change is the only focus of revolution these days, since I believe that is one of the least likely catastrophes humankind faces in the immediate future.  We really need a revolution against so called liberal values.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Roberty on October 11, 2019, 10:45:28 AM
"I think the overriding fault with social media"

Social Media - is a disguise for what it consensual spying, with a view to their monetising whatever information you've provided

W C Fields quote - "never give a sucker and even break" perfectly describes their modus operandi and their stated endeavour of "providing a better experience for users" would be more truthful is they were open enough to say make more money out of them
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 11, 2019, 10:55:25 AM
I prefer to see a difference between 'Social media' and 'The Internet'  although I do agree when searching for something you are at times pushed towards approved sites as such.

But there is a difference and I think its improtant to not mix the two as such. Social media can be like shouting in teh street what you are doing at that moment, but then on other hand i'm reading a paper looking for something.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 11, 2019, 05:00:58 PM
Social media is probably a bit of a misnomer in the context of this thread.  If you buy something from a major online supplier it will trigger a marker to be placed against anything that can be linked to you and Google (etc) have the powerful software and data banks to achieve this.  It means everything links in to certain uses of social media - I have no idea how deep this goes and I doubt anyone else does either - and many other non-social media activity and that is what is really disturbing about it.

This link is to an interesting video by Alex Winter in which he talks about the Dark Web and gives you a glimpse of the tools you need to get there and what you should expect to find.  He also fondly talks about what I mentioned about the early days of the internet when it was hassle free and a great place to make friends (I have physically met dozens of people I first met during my earliest internet adventures and I can vouch for what Alex says about this.

The link is here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luvthTjC0OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luvthTjC0OI)
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: MJG on October 11, 2019, 05:26:20 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 11, 2019, 05:00:58 PM
Social media is probably a bit of a misnomer in the context of this thread.  If you buy something from a major online supplier it will trigger a marker to be placed against anything that can be linked to you and Google (etc) have the powerful software and data banks to achieve this.  It means everything links in to certain uses of social media - I have no idea how deep this goes and I doubt anyone else does either - and many other non-social media activity and that is what is really disturbing about it.

This link is to an interesting video by Alex Winter in which he talks about the Dark Web and gives you a glimpse of the tools you need to get there and what you should expect to find.  He also fondly talks about what I mentioned about the early days of the internet when it was hassle free and a great place to make friends (I have physically met dozens of people I first met during my earliest internet adventures and I can vouch for what Alex says about this.

The link is here :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luvthTjC0OI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luvthTjC0OI)
I understand what your saying, I use the dark Web as well as good old Google. It was a much more innocent time when Web first came out.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: mrmicawbers on October 11, 2019, 05:46:39 PM
I wouldn't wish to be a teenager today with all this social media as it is.It seems you are only worthy if you have hundreds of people as friends.don't do Facebook and the like.Obviously like to keep in touch on sites like this and am on a WhatsApp site with my Fulham friends and family called Fulhams Finest lol.I have to wonder if the rise in metal health issues has something to do with social media and the problems it causes.Seems to me like people can say what they like without getting a right hander.The keyboard carrier syndrome. Google on the other hand is a great tool and can be used to great effect. Mind you people I know think there phones have people listening in.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 11, 2019, 06:21:58 PM
Quote from: mrmicawbers on October 11, 2019, 05:46:39 PM
Mind you people I know think there phones have people listening in.
There is an interesting factual story about a guy whose voice was part of the original tests for Google's voice activated response software whereby his home voice activated device went out of control and sent all his personal information including all his mobile phone encrypted data, texts, emails, photos, etc to all those involved in his online social network.  It was put down to a 'response test project' that had been mistakenly left in the main publcly issued software which recognised who he was, what he was experimenting with, and where the data should be sent.  Listening in may not be required when voice recognition software can turn your conversations into words and leave them all neatly packaged and deposited in a data bank somewhere. 
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: jayffc on October 11, 2019, 10:19:01 PM
I believe the current understanding within the social sciences is that up until a certain amount of money (enough to be comfortable and not stress too much about bills or being thrown out your home usually) mental issues are indeed prevalent and more likely to occur. But that beyond that the levels of "happiness' and mental health actually don't appear to increase significantly the richer you get (outside of the theory that if you are that rich you have better access to care once diagnosed.)

The biggest factors here, other than the stress and threat of losing your home, not being able to provide for yourself or family, lack of sense of personal value to society. Is not just the poverty itself, but relative poverty. There is more likelihood of both higher crime rates and mental health issues, in places where people are very poor, living next to people who are very rich. This says a lot about perceived value.

But again. Wealth is only seemingly a dominating factor when discussing the very bottom of the spectrum. Up until that fairly low point where enough money is made to be comfortable, endless more riches don't appear to decrease mental health issues or indeed guard you against them.

However, The point here is not dealing just with day to day mental health issues we all face. It's specific in this case (to bring it back to Christie) to the lengthy exposure to a type of continuous verbal abuse that almost none of us will ever experience on that scale in the workplace. No matte how mean some of our bosses may be, few of us have clients turn up weekly in the office on masse, booing us, screaming that we are s*** and should f*** off out the company, then taking to social media to directly tell us how s*** we are when we get home. So ....I have a lot of sympathy for anyone going through that, which I think most reasonable people (and I include surely 99.9% of us here) feel that way,which is reassuring.

As an aside... I think alot of people talking about the old days are somewhat overlooking how huge a shift the internet has been. We don't live in the same times. The internet is still very new, and is a huge, huge shift. We have constant access to over stimulus, via mobile phones/tablets etc. We have constant comparisons to other peoples lives in the palms of our hands, all day, and notifications reminding us to plug in to that. This is huge in regards to the themes of relative poverty (both monetary and in regards to being envious of others perceived lifestyles)

We have much more access to live updates of atrocities all around the world. We actually live in some of the most peaceful and prosperous times EVER in history, and yet many of us perceive that the world is totally f***ed at the moment because we're more aware of the bad stuff going on in the world than ever before.

We are also more heavily into consumerism than ever, that's had a huge effect on mental health. The focus of sociery has shifted SO much since the birth of the internet.
We are much more aware of a sense of impending doom and armageddon with climate change. The potential extinction of everything for the kids we may bring into the world. That has a huge effect...Niahlism is a very real issue. We are watching before our eyes AI becoming more powerful and advanced, we are warned by leading figures, one day in the not too distant future, that they could take over humans. Many are already seeing jobs cut in favour of machines. It's not just some mamby pamby generation. We're in the middle of some seismic shifts right now for mankind.

It's not to say that mental health issues didn't exist, but life is infinitely less simple than say 50 years ago.


As for Statto's original post that I was indeed responding too. I did read it, and I didn't suggest that you weren't sympathetic in any way to mental health issues. But the previous sentence didn't erase the later suggestion that if you're getting paid well, "in most cases", you should be able to deal with it. Again, just fundamentally not how it works. But I don't think you'd actually stand by that either with hindsight so happy to move on. What you've said later seems more reasonable, and I imagine it was a passing comment, just one that is a very common point made by many people when talking about celebs or sport stars or indeed politicians...and as I say a point very wide of the mark.

we can agree to disagree that your previous point negates that statement entirely. For me it doesn't but what's written since shows a deeper understanding which leads me to surmise what I wrote above. If for you I'm wrong. I've no qualms there, I've no interest in going down a lengthy back and forth leading to nowhere about it today ha.

F This I'm going back to the halloween footballers thread. Hope every one is well and looking after eachother. Wether we disagree or not.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 11, 2019, 11:12:51 PM
Well it took 2 days but at least the thread has finally returned to relevance.

For the record, I absolutely stand my comment. If we're going to define mental health problems in any meaningful way (ie not just everyday mood swings, fears etc) then "most" (ie not all, but more than half of) players won't suffer those problems, and as I said, ought to be able to handle a bit of abuse. That's not to say they'll enjoy it - I don't enjoy getting out of bed at 7am every morning but my 5-figure salary just about justifies it. For 7 figures "most" people could (and most players do) handle booing.

Also for clarity, I stand by my comment that if they really don't like it, they can quit. Even if that's due to a mental health problem. Yes that's a bit tragic but physical and mental disabilities have some adverse implications - there's no getting away from that. If you're 5'6", well that's not a disability but you're probably not going to have a career in basketball. If you've vertigo, you should probably steer clear of window-cleaning. If you're sensitive to adverse feedback from crowds, you'd be well advised to avoid a career in popular spectator sports.

My only caveat is that we must continue to work harder to see that players' advisers recognise and diagnose these sorts of problems and advise, and make it viable for, players to change their careers and/or lifestyles before they end up in a bad place not knowing what's wrong with them or what to do about it.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: jayffc on October 12, 2019, 12:28:08 AM
I agree wit half of this... but I think my caveat is to push, very much for both... For a world where people understand and discuss that it helps other peoples mental health (and indeed their own) if they don't single out individuals they don't know personally , and direct all of their own anger at someone for kicking a ball about ...on the premise that' if they dont like it they should stop doing the thing they're good at , because, well, tough'. I think humanising celebrities and people in the limelight is useful as there's still some pre conceved notion that they should just accept and expect abuse...that they're people who should just lump it or stiff upper lip it, cos they chose to do something they've always loved doing, and are good at something, that happens to be deemed a desirable job by society ....and therefore for some reason they're deemed fair game for tearing down with full fury when it's not going as well. Same with the music, film and politics worlds.

I guess if I hadnt been in and been surrounded by people in that position seeing what they go through day to day. Maybe I wouldn't be able to empathise in the same way. I see those people and converse with them as normal people, called by their first names and know the human side of them. So I don't, and they don't, see themselves as a 7 figure human, they see themselves as just normal people who happened to have a talent and passion for something. 

ah well. funny old world, opinions ay.


And also it's one thing doing it at a football match with tensions running high (bad enough though) but to then go home and continue to abuse people online is just outrageous. That's where my focus is, ASWELL AS vouching for support for those who have to deal with sort of childish nonsense. I don't know if Internet anonymity has added to peoples sense of entitlement to this sort of behaviour but , while we're at it, I would suggest there should probably be some support given to people who think it socially acceptable to do this sort of thing to find out what they're actually so deeply angry about.

I don't think anyone should have to give up their chosen career path because some t***s think it's ok to abuse them at the very sight of them. Yes, most footballers get some level of Micky taking, and that's one thing ..."banter".... but not all get the vitriol and ugliness that some have put up with. Point is it's not "just a bit of booing" we're talking about, it's relentless negativity everytime he does the most minor thing wrong now, ranging from booing to outright abuse, last match he played a guy next to me shouted out "why don't you and your family f*** off" or words to that effect (I posted the more accurate quote at the time) ....again im not fan of him as a footballer for us by the way, but this isn't just a bit of booing. Especially IF the alleged attack is what he believes happened. we're now talking about a guy who believes his sister was hit because one fan was so vocal in his disgust of Christie it cause a physical altercation involving his family.

Now I know you've alluded that you're not convinced by the incident....but IF that's what his own sister told him what happened, and he believes thats the case. That's not just a bit of booing to him , he's dealing with some whole extra s*** that no one should have to just put up with because they earn more money. I repeat, it doesnt work like that. Money is money, these guys are just human.


anyway, again, I see your arguments, I understand your point of view, I don't disagree with large chunks of it but I see real importance in addressing both sides of the problem personally.

Enough from me, night
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Statto on October 12, 2019, 09:13:38 AM
@jayffc, again, where has anyone said online abuse, attacking someone's sister, or the general "tearing down" of public figures is OK? If you want to make a separate point about those things, fine, but please don't do it in reply to my posts in a manner that suggests I've condoned those things. With all due respect, you've written three essays on this thread and I agree with 98% of it, but that 98% isn't contradicting anything I have (or that anyone has, as far as I can tell) said.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Woolly Mammoth on October 12, 2019, 09:19:44 AM
My wife, my mistress, her sister, the lady next door and my girlfriend all boo me when I wake up, do you feel that is fair ?
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 12, 2019, 12:10:09 PM
@jayffc
Thank you for some very thoughtful recent responses, much of which I consider very relevant to perceived differences between past and present.  I use the word perceived because all of us have to live in the here and now or we are already lost to sanity.     

On the internet it was originally conceived as a pure information, learning and communication device with particular use to anyone researching for their own project or wishing to identify people with similar interest.  Even Microsoft's Bill Gates failed to see how it could ever be turned into what he wanted - a locked in product that would both stretch and limit your progress, entertainment, intelligence, interests, et cetara, et cetera - which would make money for his personal enterprise.  That, believe it or not, protected the internet as it was from what it would become the moment someone saw pounds or dollar signs looming large in their eyes.  For a long time the internet survived because it inconveniently took over your landline telephone unless you could afford a second line.  Two things conspired to change all that, the mobile phone, and the realisation that our progression to ever faster and more powerful chips would hit the buffers of the wavelength of light which dictated the process of making chips powerful and small enough without catching fire and exploding.  We hit the boundary of etching things smaller a long time ago, but there was always a time lag before the next generation power chips emerged.  The mobile phone would keep the silicon industry going for at least several decades since it was the process of using existing technology to make everything small enough to fit into a handheld device.  Hence the industry had to turn us away from large PC's to smaller PC's, and what better way to do it than smaller but powerful laptops and smaller but powerful phones?  The need to make money drove the change and we, gullible, human being sucked it up because we don't like to be cut off from our peers. 

It is not being isolated that drives all our fears and our fears drive our phobias be they based on religion, culture, ethnic derivation, creed, social identity, self esteem, and so on.  Integration improves the chances of you being happier or at least less inclined to be very unhappy.  But the mobile phone detaches us through the falsehood that you are in real contact when every bone in our body is saying you need physical contact not superficial contact and hearing a voice and seeing a face on a screen is not physical at all - it is illusion that the brain has to make sense of, and that requires a lot of mental energy we do not really have any understanding of.   We know a fag paper width about our brains and we haven't really made serious progress on how our brains work in a long time.  There are some ethnics, minorities or not, who manage their live perfectly normally because they refuse to live in fear and instead strive to remain free to be whoever they are, and if others choose another path then more fools them.  And that is the key as Eric Berne suggests - play games by all means but understand and be careful that when you play a negative game there is likely to be a rule you will encounter that does not lead you to a relatively happy outcome, and it may, in fact, effectively end your life as you know it if you are not very careful.   The people to be with are those who play a truly positive game each and every time even when faced with negativity.

   
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: Southcoastffc on October 12, 2019, 02:35:00 PM
Getting back to the OP, this is an extract from a Bristol Press item about Joe Bryan which again illustrates that being a well-paid professional footballer does not mean that life is a bowl of cherries.

"There's a lot of people out there who are suffering and the more we come out and speak about it the less alone they'll feel, and from personal experience it helps," said Bryan, who made 230 appearances [for Bristol City] after making his debut in 2012.

Bryan left his hometown club in the summer of 2018, where he had been since he was a schoolboy, to move to west London and try his luck in the Premier League with Fulham.

The 26-year-old admits that being away from the familiarity of Bristol and his close-knit unit of family and friends left him feeling isolated, affecting his overall health and performances on the field.

"I just felt alone. I'd moved away from my family and my partner at the time," said Bryan in a Fulham promotional video.

"It was a massive change in my personal life and everything went downhill and I got injured. I wasn't playing very well and we were bottom of the league.

"I then split up with my now ex-girlfriend and I just felt alone and didn't really know what to do."

That was then his new club got involved and helped encourage him to talk about his problems.

"Luckily one of the physios pulled me and said 'you're not the same. We feel that there's something wrong in your life. Do you want to talk to the doctor?', he added.

"They put me in touch with the counsellor. I saw him a few times and that sorted me out."

Bryan had posted on Instagram in August regarding his battle, stating then: "If you're struggling, there's no weakness in speaking to a professional and finding help."

The message is that anyone can be suffering and help is out there for everyone, no matter who you are.








Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 13, 2019, 10:10:30 AM
With respect I am not sure the last line of the Joe Bryan story (and the comment made by the poster) is borne out by the what precedes it.  Help found him by virtue of concerns with his employee status - '[JB] have changed; you are not the same' - which is not going to be true of many a struggling person without anyone around them who is the least bit concerned.  I think this is the danger of simplistic cherry picking.
Title: Re: Cyrus Christie - The Times
Post by: toshes mate on October 14, 2019, 09:30:35 AM
This https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50039787 (https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50039787) gives you an idea of Gareth Southgate's view of due diligence and the vague proposition that it may be enough to know everything you should know about an asset of yours.  We are so well covered by the concern of others, aren't we just!