On offer @ 6/1. That seems rather generous, particularly after they tanked Bristol City this afternoon?
Lose to Luton and Parker has to go.
Difficult to see a win here, another home 2-2
Big pressure game this....win, and build some consistency or lose and have a think about rebuilding.
Just waiting for Parker to say they are a difficult team to play against and we will be treating them with a lot of respect,
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
However lets be honest, things really have not been going the way we expected, there must be pressure mounting on the players and Parker.
It has come as no surprise to me, there are no easy games, every match is a different challenge and thwart with, danger, potholes banana skins and road crashes. No team will lie down, as a lot of people who thought was a walk in the park are coming to realise. We are not the best team or best squad in the Division. The League Table never lies. We may end up not being one of the best six teams in the top six, unless every player is prepared to bust a gut, sweat blood in conjunction with a gut full of fire in their belly, and play within the framework of the team.
Otherwise we will end up being also rans, and that will be a shame as we are not punching our weight for one reason or another.
We fail to win, I will probably be on the Parker out train.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on October 20, 2019, 10:56:39 PM
We fail to win, I will probably be on the Parker out train.
There is no point appointing a new manager with a game in 4 days, unless the next manager is already with the squad like Stuart Gray. But frankly, the assistant manager also failed to persuade the manager to use the right tactics against Stoke, so Stuart Gray is no better option than Scott Parker.
Quote from: filham on October 20, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
I'd love to know how people pick random scores out of the air for a "we should win this by" statement of non fact.
I think we're amongst the most entitled fans in the country, which is strange given our history.
Quote from: Jim© on October 21, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: filham on October 20, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
I'd love to know how people pick random scores out of the air for a "we should win this by" statement of non fact.
I think we're amongst the most entitled fans in the country, which is strange given our history.
I'll entertain this line of argument. It's not a matter of 'entitlement', it's a matter of expectation. The expectation for this team is top 2. That's not an entitlement that we should finish top 2, that's the expectation and objective. When people, like myself, see the fixture list, you generally put them into 3 brackets, top 6, mid table, bottom 6 (or variants of that number), if you wish to be a top team, it's usually prudent to beat the bottom 6, pick up more wins than draws/losses (and the home win if possible) against mid table and draw/lose to top 6 based on home/away leg. So when you see Stoke, Forest, Barnsley, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Charlton, sometimes you 'expect' better because you have to roll with the probability that points from the generally in form top 6 teams is unlikely. We've encountered some of these already, form teams punching above where you'd think they would be and have come up short so in the long term, you have to wonder where the points will be coming from to make up the gaps in the pursuit for top 2.
I guess the next part you'd like to point at is, why is the expectation top 2. Well, simply put, with the biggest wage bill, most expensive squad in terms of market value and a lot of players who walk into most teams in this division, its a no brainer that this team should be not only top 2 but challenging for winning the league. You may call that entitlement still, but if the objective is this from the chairmen based on investment, I don't think its unreasonable for the fans to think so too.
Opposition need to be respected, sure. But this squad shouldn't be worried by some of the fixtures we've already failed in and they shouldn't be beaten or points taken away from, by the likes of Luton with all due respect to them. I don't think one player from them gets into this team so thats what I'm basing it on.
Somebody insinuated at the start of the season that no Barnsley player would get in the Fulham team. Well we all know what happened there. It's not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man. As we all witnessed last season, when our team capitulated time and again. This season we have managed to win only 5 out of 12 matches. Possibly what happens in the next 12 matches may define our season, injuries permitting.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Jim© on October 21, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: filham on October 20, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
I'd love to know how people pick random scores out of the air for a "we should win this by" statement of non fact.
I think we're amongst the most entitled fans in the country, which is strange given our history.
I'll entertain this line of argument. It's not a matter of 'entitlement', it's a matter of expectation. The expectation for this team is top 2. That's not an entitlement that we should finish top 2, that's the expectation and objective. When people, like myself, see the fixture list, you generally put them into 3 brackets, top 6, mid table, bottom 6 (or variants of that number), if you wish to be a top team, it's usually prudent to beat the bottom 6, pick up more wins than draws/losses (and the home win if possible) against mid table and draw/lose to top 6 based on home/away leg. So when you see Stoke, Forest, Barnsley, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Charlton, sometimes you 'expect' better because you have to roll with the probability that points from the generally in form top 6 teams is unlikely. We've encountered some of these already, form teams punching above where you'd think they would be and have come up short so in the long term, you have to wonder where the points will be coming from to make up the gaps in the pursuit for top 2.
I guess the next part you'd like to point at is, why is the expectation top 2. Well, simply put, with the biggest wage bill, most expensive squad in terms of market value and a lot of players who walk into most teams in this division, its a no brainer that this team should be not only top 2 but challenging for winning the league. You may call that entitlement still, but if the objective is this from the chairmen based on investment, I don't think its unreasonable for the fans to think so too.
Opposition need to be respected, sure. But this squad shouldn't be worried by some of the fixtures we've already failed in and they shouldn't be beaten or points taken away from, by the likes of Luton with all due respect to them. I don't think one player from them gets into this team so thats what I'm basing it on.
But it's all down to 11 v 11 on the day - and whoever we play in this division will be a TEAM of 11 quality, very fit, well organised players , highly motivated to beat us.
Quote from: RaySmith on October 21, 2019, 10:22:10 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Jim© on October 21, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: filham on October 20, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
I'd love to know how people pick random scores out of the air for a "we should win this by" statement of non fact.
I think we're amongst the most entitled fans in the country, which is strange given our history.
I'll entertain this line of argument. It's not a matter of 'entitlement', it's a matter of expectation. The expectation for this team is top 2. That's not an entitlement that we should finish top 2, that's the expectation and objective. When people, like myself, see the fixture list, you generally put them into 3 brackets, top 6, mid table, bottom 6 (or variants of that number), if you wish to be a top team, it's usually prudent to beat the bottom 6, pick up more wins than draws/losses (and the home win if possible) against mid table and draw/lose to top 6 based on home/away leg. So when you see Stoke, Forest, Barnsley, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Charlton, sometimes you 'expect' better because you have to roll with the probability that points from the generally in form top 6 teams is unlikely. We've encountered some of these already, form teams punching above where you'd think they would be and have come up short so in the long term, you have to wonder where the points will be coming from to make up the gaps in the pursuit for top 2.
I guess the next part you'd like to point at is, why is the expectation top 2. Well, simply put, with the biggest wage bill, most expensive squad in terms of market value and a lot of players who walk into most teams in this division, its a no brainer that this team should be not only top 2 but challenging for winning the league. You may call that entitlement still, but if the objective is this from the chairmen based on investment, I don't think its unreasonable for the fans to think so too.
Opposition need to be respected, sure. But this squad shouldn't be worried by some of the fixtures we've already failed in and they shouldn't be beaten or points taken away from, by the likes of Luton with all due respect to them. I don't think one player from them gets into this team so thats what I'm basing it on.
But it's all down to 11 v 11 on the day - and whoever we play in this division will be a TEAM of 11 quality, very fit, well organised players , highly motivated to beat us.
Precisely
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on October 21, 2019, 10:25:47 AM
Quote from: RaySmith on October 21, 2019, 10:22:10 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Jim© on October 21, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: filham on October 20, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
I'd love to know how people pick random scores out of the air for a "we should win this by" statement of non fact.
I think we're amongst the most entitled fans in the country, which is strange given our history.
I'll entertain this line of argument. It's not a matter of 'entitlement', it's a matter of expectation. The expectation for this team is top 2. That's not an entitlement that we should finish top 2, that's the expectation and objective. When people, like myself, see the fixture list, you generally put them into 3 brackets, top 6, mid table, bottom 6 (or variants of that number), if you wish to be a top team, it's usually prudent to beat the bottom 6, pick up more wins than draws/losses (and the home win if possible) against mid table and draw/lose to top 6 based on home/away leg. So when you see Stoke, Forest, Barnsley, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Charlton, sometimes you 'expect' better because you have to roll with the probability that points from the generally in form top 6 teams is unlikely. We've encountered some of these already, form teams punching above where you'd think they would be and have come up short so in the long term, you have to wonder where the points will be coming from to make up the gaps in the pursuit for top 2.
I guess the next part you'd like to point at is, why is the expectation top 2. Well, simply put, with the biggest wage bill, most expensive squad in terms of market value and a lot of players who walk into most teams in this division, its a no brainer that this team should be not only top 2 but challenging for winning the league. You may call that entitlement still, but if the objective is this from the chairmen based on investment, I don't think its unreasonable for the fans to think so too.
Opposition need to be respected, sure. But this squad shouldn't be worried by some of the fixtures we've already failed in and they shouldn't be beaten or points taken away from, by the likes of Luton with all due respect to them. I don't think one player from them gets into this team so thats what I'm basing it on.
But it's all down to 11 v 11 on the day - and whoever we play in this division will be a TEAM of 11 quality, very fit, well organised players , highly motivated to beat us.
Precisely
I don't disagree but we have enough quality in depth in this squad to overcome gritty teams. Or maybe i'm wrong, and we don't and this team isn't as good as I thought.
That doesn't negate the point of why we expect a top 2 finish and its an underachievement if we don't. We have gritty players, we have some of the most gifted technical midfielders, pacey, tricky wingers and a striker who scores goals at all levels hes played. Its a tough league and I agree, we aren't out of the races yet in our objective, but I don't think its unfair to criticise bad results we've had already this season.
Expectation and objective are two entirely different things. Our expectations as fans are, I'd suggest, in need of a reset. A relegated team is on a downward trend and the first thing a coach does is try to reverse that; start winning, improve the atmosphere, release the deadwood. It's a readjustment that is very rarely instantaneous and one that I feel we're doing pretty well at. Cardiff and Huddersfield less so.
The objective is of course promotion and with this squad it is of course possible. I'm yet, perhaps bar Sheff Weds, see a team that looks better than us. Out of the games we've played, that's a very good sign.
I'd argue that we should have more points thus far and be nearer to the top, I don't think many teams will feel like they've been unlucky against us.
So, if the objective was top 2, and the expectation was top 2, why would you reset that now unless you're confirming we're definitely going to underachieve this season?
For all the 'top teams when they go down struggle', teams that keep the EPL quality players tend to go back up. Newcastle, a perfect example. Looking at the teams that have struggled after going down over the years, seem to lose a lot or a few key players which have major repercussions. We haven't done that and we've added some real class players. We should be aiming for top 2, anything else is an underachievement. Simple as that.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 10:42:51 AM
So, if the objective was top 2, and the expectation was top 2, why would you reset that now unless you're confirming we're definitely going to underachieve this season?
For all the 'top teams when they go down struggle', teams that keep the EPL quality players tend to go back up. Newcastle, a perfect example. Looking at the teams that have struggled after going down over the years, seem to lose a lot or a few key players which have major repercussions. We haven't done that and we've added some real class players. We should be aiming for top 2, anything else is an underachievement. Simple as that.
Who said expectation was top 2? Mine was top 6 and I'd be annoyed if we didn't get that.
Stoke kept a very expensive team and they didn't exactly set the division on fire last season. Sunderland? Swansea? Hull? The division is littered with teams that "just" went down, so please don't try and make it that it's dead easy to go straight back up. Infact I think data shows it's easier to come up from Div 1 with a lesser squad (but good momentum) and finish higher than a relegated Prem team (with an expensively assembled squad).
The general theme in all those examples, including Stoke, was that key players left though so they aren't like for like examples whereas Newcastle was. Going straight back up isn't easy, but top 2 is still the expectation. Maybe not for you, but based on general atmopshere of this forum and many FFC fans I speak to, it was top 2.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 11:19:23 AM
The general theme in all those examples, including Stoke, was that key players left though so they aren't like for like examples whereas Newcastle was. Going straight back up isn't easy, but top 2 is still the expectation. Maybe not for you, but based on general atmopshere of this forum and many FFC fans I speak to, it was top 2.
Sorry, but Newcastle example is incorrect. Sissoko, Townsend and Wijnaldum left for £60 million odd, Janmaat, Cisse and Cabella going for another £30m. Incomings? Hanley, Ciaran Clark, Gayle, Sels, Yedlin for approx £35m.
You could argue, with Sess, Seri, Anguissa, Rico, Chambers, Babel/Schurrle we had to find 1/2 a team to compete this season? So many forget how "new" this team is and Parker got panned for saying it at the weekend.
Quote from: Jim© on October 21, 2019, 11:46:58 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 11:19:23 AM
The general theme in all those examples, including Stoke, was that key players left though so they aren't like for like examples whereas Newcastle was. Going straight back up isn't easy, but top 2 is still the expectation. Maybe not for you, but based on general atmopshere of this forum and many FFC fans I speak to, it was top 2.
Sorry, but Newcastle example is incorrect. Sissoko, Townsend and Wijnaldum left for £60 million odd, Janmaat, Cisse and Cabella going for another £30m. Incomings? Hanley, Ciaran Clark, Gayle, Sels, Yedlin for approx £35m.
You could argue, with Sess, Seri, Anguissa, Rico, Chambers, Babel/Schurrle we had to find 1/2 a team to compete this season? So many forget how "new" this team is and Parker got panned for saying it at the weekend.
Oh come on, the team and squad Newcastle still had was one of, if not the best squads I've seen the championship. There squad the season they went down, was much betters than ours too so the players gone already had replacements in the squad. Parker got panned on here because it was mainly misquoted.
If you can't see the likeness between us and Newcastle, and especially it being unlike the other teams mentioned, I don't know what to tell you. Respectfully, agree to disagree.
I'm not 100% that it was but will agree to disagree!
If I choose collect from ticket office for the Luton game when booking online, will I be able to pick these up at say 7.30pm on Wednesday just before ko?
Well I have read and digested all of the above and still say we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win at the Cottage against Luton.
I will add that if we are not expecting a 3-0 win we have no reason to even think of promotion.
I'll take a scrappy 1 nil win to be honest at this point. Wins a win. No points for looking good.
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 04:15:00 PM
I'll take a scrappy 1 nil win to be honest at this point. Wins a win. No points for looking good.
I am down right now as I see any promotion hopes fast disappearing, we need a win and a performance to give us top six credibility.
We'll bounce back...5-0..Mitro hat-trick.
It's all on the night, no more no less.
A win and a good performance is all I'm hoping for. Not too much to ask is it ? We need a confidence boost to take some momentum to Middlesborough on Saturday.
Without looking it up, can anyone recall the last time we played the Hatters at home, I can't?
I recall an awful night losing 0-4 at home I think, probably in the 70s.
And if we win, i'll be right on here celebrating. But if we lose/draw, i'll be complaining. Just a heads up for consistency.
For every Luton at home we lose we must make up for by a win at Leeds away for example, if we want promotion. Let's make it easy for ourselves.
Quote from: SP on October 21, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
Without looking it up, can anyone recall the last time we played the Hatters at home, I can't?
I recall an awful night losing 0-4 at home I think, probably in the 70s.
can't remember the home game but really vivid on the away game on our way up about 97/98. The Horse terrorising them. 4-0 or 4-1. Got in a ruckus outside. Some angry fat Hatter throwing crazy windmill punches at us. Pretty sure he regrets that
Quote from: filham on October 21, 2019, 07:26:55 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 04:15:00 PM
I'll take a scrappy 1 nil win to be honest at this point. Wins a win. No points for looking good.
I am down right now as I see any promotion hopes fast disappearing, we need a win and a performance to give us top six credibility.
A win works for me, no matter how we get it! Not feeling very positive after Saturday though....
Quote from: 70sPimlico on October 21, 2019, 09:10:31 PM
Quote from: SP on October 21, 2019, 08:28:09 PM
Without looking it up, can anyone recall the last time we played the Hatters at home, I can't?
I recall an awful night losing 0-4 at home I think, probably in the 70s.
can't remember the home game but really vivid on the away game on our way up about 97/98. The Horse terrorising them. 4-0 or 4-1. Got in a ruckus outside. Some angry fat Hatter throwing crazy windmill punches at us. Pretty sure he regrets that
Always kicked off at Luton for some reason. I recall Moods scoring a few on one memorable occasion, right in front of the travelling FFC fans.
I remember cycling to Luton for a critical game late in our 1949 promotion race, winning and then spending an old penny to buy the classified Evening News at Marble Arch on the way home to read the match report and see us in the promotion spot. Those were the days.
One thing is for sure, we'll have no less than 70% possession. It's the other 30% that might be a concern for some as we refuse to sign enough able and proper defenders year after year.
Quote from: filham on October 21, 2019, 09:53:30 PM
I remember cycling to Luton for a critical game late in our 1949 promotion race, winning and then spending an old penny to buy the classified Evening News at Marble Arch on the way home to read the match report and see us in the promotion spot. Those were the days.
Brilliant, how times have changed. They should make a movie about this trip!
Quote from: FFC1987 on October 21, 2019, 09:53:14 AM
Quote from: Jim© on October 21, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
Quote from: filham on October 20, 2019, 10:23:40 PM
With our squad and playing at the Cottage we should be looking for at least a 3-0 win.
I'd love to know how people pick random scores out of the air for a "we should win this by" statement of non fact.
I think we're amongst the most entitled fans in the country, which is strange given our history.
I'll entertain this line of argument. It's not a matter of 'entitlement', it's a matter of expectation. The expectation for this team is top 2. That's not an entitlement that we should finish top 2, that's the expectation and objective. When people, like myself, see the fixture list, you generally put them into 3 brackets, top 6, mid table, bottom 6 (or variants of that number), if you wish to be a top team, it's usually prudent to beat the bottom 6, pick up more wins than draws/losses (and the home win if possible) against mid table and draw/lose to top 6 based on home/away leg. So when you see Stoke, Forest, Barnsley, Cardiff, Sheffield Wednesday and Charlton, sometimes you 'expect' better because you have to roll with the probability that points from the generally in form top 6 teams is unlikely. We've encountered some of these already, form teams punching above where you'd think they would be and have come up short so in the long term, you have to wonder where the points will be coming from to make up the gaps in the pursuit for top 2.
I guess the next part you'd like to point at is, why is the expectation top 2. Well, simply put, with the biggest wage bill, most expensive squad in terms of market value and a lot of players who walk into most teams in this division, its a no brainer that this team should be not only top 2 but challenging for winning the league. You may call that entitlement still, but if the objective is this from the chairmen based on investment, I don't think its unreasonable for the fans to think so too.
Opposition need to be respected, sure. But this squad shouldn't be worried by some of the fixtures we've already failed in and they shouldn't be beaten or points taken away from, by the likes of Luton with all due respect to them. I don't think one player from them gets into this team so thats what I'm basing it on.
0001.jpeg
:plus one:
Excellent summary and discussion of 'expectation' v 'entitlement'.
After reading this thread, I do agree with many here that consider the Luton game as 'critical' in terms of direction this team is headed AND Parkers future with it. If we see a poor outing, I doubt Parker is sacked right away, with games coming upon us quickly. But, I could see the pink slip maybe a couple weeks down the road giving ownership a chance to consider the next coach.
I really hope it doesn't come to that, but with the squad we have, and the talent and money associated with it, FFC should be doing much much better, I think most here would agree.
