Hi everyone! I haven't posted anything in a while because I've been overwhelmed at work and just couldn't find time to post here which is a bummer. Today I watched a Portuguese league match between Sporting and Belenenses which ended 2-0 and our former player Vietto was immense. Not only did he score both goals (first goal was really nice too), but his overall performance was great. He was everywhere on the pitch and had a lot of nice dribbles. Imo he always seemed to have a lot of potential and after watching this game I kind of regret how easily we got rid of him. I also think that he would suit Jokanovic's football the best and that Ranieri was part of the problem (P. S. I don't remember why he didn't feature much with Parker as our head coach).
That's it for my first post back here, I hope I'll find more time to post here in the future!
P. S. Fabri played just one game this season and conceded three goals, while Seri, as mentioned on this board is having a terrible season in Turkey.
There's a name I never thought I'd hear again. Vietto that is, not you!
I too rated vietto more than he got credit for. Think he was a useful player and had more to offer us than we saw.
With regards to players like Fabri and Seri struggling out on loan, i ask myself are they doing everything they possibly can to impress us as their parent club or any other club in terms of potential suitors?
Those two are going on to have a second struggling season in Seris situation and a second season sitting on a bench bar 3 games across 16 months..
I'd be desperate for game time there or elsewhere to put myself in consideration or in the shop window, as both players have undoubted talent but they're wasting the supposed prime in their careers
All of the transfers bought in the last two week of the summer of 2018 could still go on to have promising careers including Rico, TFM, Chambers, Mawson, Bryan, Anguissa, Viejo and Mitro.
The players we bought earlier in the summer of 2018 have been fair more questioned including Fabri, MLM, Seri and Schullre; all with more experience but surprisingly seem past their best.
The jury is out for me with regards to Vietto, did not really see enough of him to make a sound judgement. What I did see was him getting knocked off the ball easy, needs to improve his upper body strength for our League, plenty of room for improvement but I wouldn't write him off, certain better than both Fonte and Jozabed who couldn't tackle a boiled egg between them, and neither of those two got their shorts dirty ever.
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
The Wolves team was made up of players like this, as was the Norwich side last years, as was the Watford side before that - Brentford constantly recruit foreign players based off a stats based model and they are always there or there abouts. Forest doing well this year as well..
Championship experience is imo a myth, good footballers are good footballers - yes the Championship is more physical than some European leagues but surely the amount of success foreign footballers have had in this league shows you champ experience isn't a necessity
Sorry, but you have to perform for your club.... it doesn't matter retrospectively if you perform elsewhere.
Good luck to him, but while he was a walk-on for us i suspect his mind was on playing elsewhere.
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
I agree, Fulham especially have had too many failures for comfort, and in doing so have lost money over it. Although our crack recruitment unit also have to take responsibility registering so much deadwood from abroad, and many of them milky characters who are mentally weak and won't make an effort to settle.
There are plenty of players in the Football League to surf through that are a far less risk, and better characters.
He failed for us, albeit he showed signs of talent. Some players just aren't suited to the Premier League.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 13, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
I agree, Fulham especially have had too many failures for comfort, and in doing so have lost money over it. Although our crack recruitment unit also have to take responsibility registering so much deadwood from abroad, and many of them milky characters who are mentally weak and won't make an effort to settle.
There are plenty of players in the Football League to surf through that are a far less risk, and better characters.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 13, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
I agree, Fulham especially have had too many failures for comfort, and in doing so have lost money over it. Although our crack recruitment unit also have to take responsibility registering so much deadwood from abroad, and many of them milky characters who are mentally weak and won't make an effort to settle.
There are plenty of players in the Football League to surf through that are a far less risk, and better characters.
Totally agree character and personality doen't register on stats.
I have heard that we now do stats on lower leagues, if true thank God.
We have missed out on so many bargains that other clubs have picked up in the recent past, only to pay big bucks for lesser effective players.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on November 13, 2019, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 13, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
I agree, Fulham especially have had too many failures for comfort, and in doing so have lost money over it. Although our crack recruitment unit also have to take responsibility registering so much deadwood from abroad, and many of them milky characters who are mentally weak and won't make an effort to settle.
There are plenty of players in the Football League to surf through that are a far less risk, and better characters.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 13, 2019, 01:16:49 PM
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
I agree, Fulham especially have had too many failures for comfort, and in doing so have lost money over it. Although our crack recruitment unit also have to take responsibility registering so much deadwood from abroad, and many of them milky characters who are mentally weak and won't make an effort to settle.
There are plenty of players in the Football League to surf through that are a far less risk, and better characters.
Totally agree character and personality doen't register on stats.
I have heard that we now do stats on lower leagues, if true thank God.
We have missed out on so many bargains that other clubs have picked up in the recent past, only to pay big bucks for lesser effective players.
Spot on J D
Quote from: @jolslover on November 12, 2019, 07:25:46 PM
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
The Wolves team was made up of players like this, as was the Norwich side last years, as was the Watford side before that - Brentford constantly recruit foreign players based off a stats based model and they are always there or there abouts. Forest doing well this year as well..
Championship experience is imo a myth, good footballers are good footballers - yes the Championship is more physical than some European leagues but surely the amount of success foreign footballers have had in this league shows you champ experience isn't a necessity
Top Championship proven players (like Britt Assombalonga for £15m) are insanely expensive and not value for money, we can afford them this season only but Brentford cannot. If you cannot afford top championship players, better to buy top foreign players than average championship players.
Quote from: @jolslover on November 12, 2019, 07:25:46 PM
Quote from: filham on November 12, 2019, 06:40:07 PM
No, sorry I think we have now realised that we need Championship proven material. Classy looking players with good Stats. from foreign leagues are not going to cut the mustard in the Championship without a lot of adaptation.
The Wolves team was made up of players like this, as was the Norwich side last years, as was the Watford side before that - Brentford constantly recruit foreign players based off a stats based model and they are always there or there abouts. Forest doing well this year as well..
Championship experience is imo a myth, good footballers are good footballers - yes the Championship is more physical than some European leagues but surely the amount of success foreign footballers have had in this league shows you champ experience isn't a necessity
Its stone age thinking I agree.
Experience in a league is what people say, when what they really should say or consider is more so suitability to play within a league ie do they as a player have the required ability and attributes, physical, mental and technical to make it.
I thought Vietto had the technique, but lacked heavily in the other two areas.
Also, it's worth considering when people say experience in the league, it's possibly because they want instant success and if a player has done it before, then often you're going to do well (or at least should!) buying in proven players (if you can afford to). A lot of fans don't trust those in charge to go and find new players to the league that will do well, or at least not in the way Brentford etc do.
Ultimately it's about reducing certain risks IMO
If you bring in a player from a foreign league there's always a risk that they won't adapt to the pace of the English league, the climate, homesickness, the language barrier, the food, the general culture here etc. Say for the sake of argument that risk is 50%, ie, half of those players will fail for some reason
If you bring in a player who's already had two or three good seasons in the PL/Championship that risk is substantially zero
So yes it's fine to gamble on a few foreign imports but lots of them are going to fail, no matter how good they are
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
Ultimately it's about reducing certain risks IMO
If you bring in a player from a foreign league there's always a risk that they won't adapt to the pace of the English league, the climate, homesickness, the language barrier, the food, the general culture here etc. Say for the sake of argument that risk is 50%, ie, half of those players will fail for some reason
If you bring in a player who's already had two or three good seasons in the PL/Championship that risk is substantially zero
So yes it's fine to gamble on a few foreign imports but lots of them are going to fail, no matter how good they are
My feelings entirely, it's risk assessment and dam common sense which you will not find on a computer. But I am sure the snowflake brigade will be fretting whilst donning their tin hats and putting on their mittens and complaining about how hard done by these soft centred over payed players who don't give a monkeys are returned from whence they came because they are unsuitable.
It's all about balance. I wouldn't say it's zero risk to sign players who have been there and done it, as they'll typically be older (sometimes a good thing too) and in a new team and it doesn't always click. They cost more too. A blend of players who have shown their success in a league before, mixed with shrewd signings who will fit and bobs your uncle. Some have successfully done this - we'll see if we managed it this season. More than ever before under TK we've gone for the experienced players over imports.
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
If you bring in a player who's already had two or three good seasons in the PL/Championship that risk is substantially zero
We have done that and players have tanked and thats only in the last 4 - 5 years as well.
You almost have to break this argument down into signings from Home and Abroad and then did they do good or bad.
Also as already mentioned a lot of overseas players who come in are possibly cheaper anyway. Maybe 3 over seas players on 10-15K a week with the hope one works is a better gamble than 40K on one player from the championship or PL
Quote from: MJG on November 14, 2019, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
If you bring in a player who's already had two or three good seasons in the PL/Championship that risk is substantially zero
We have done that and players have tanked and thats only in the last 4 - 5 years as well.
You almost have to break this argument down into signings from Home and Abroad and then did they do good or bad.
Also as already mentioned a lot of overseas players who come in are possibly cheaper anyway. Maybe 3 over seas players on 10-15K a week with the hope one works is a better gamble than 40K on one player from the championship or PL
But did they fail for the reasons I mentioned, eg, not liking the English weather?
No, they failed for other reasons, whether that's not suiting our tactics, depression... whatever
I'm not saying domestic transfers are risk free (this is addressed to Dr Quinzel, who also misunderstood my post) just that with foreign signings, there are additional risks (those I mentioned) that you don't get with domestic signings, making foreign signings inherently riskier overall.
I agree they're cheaper but that's the obvious quid pro quo of them being riskier. I also agree with Dr Quinzel that ultimately "It's all about balance"
I watched Benfica v Beleneses about 3 years ago and our ex unfit, overweight, missing £11m Greek, Mr Mitroglou was playing for Benfica and got a hat trick. If I said Beleneses were League 1 standard, that may be unfair to a lot of League 1 clubs (and they were at home) so Vietto looking good in the Portuguese league against a team that isnt Benfica or Porto, isn't saying much. As has been said, he had some nice touches during his time with us and almost looked like a good player but in a team that struggled anyway, he was always up against it. A bit like Bryan Ruiz who went to Sporting, it will probably suit him.
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: MJG on November 14, 2019, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
If you bring in a player who's already had two or three good seasons in the PL/Championship that risk is substantially zero
We have done that and players have tanked and thats only in the last 4 - 5 years as well.
You almost have to break this argument down into signings from Home and Abroad and then did they do good or bad.
Also as already mentioned a lot of overseas players who come in are possibly cheaper anyway. Maybe 3 over seas players on 10-15K a week with the hope one works is a better gamble than 40K on one player from the championship or PL
But did they fail for the reasons I mentioned, eg, not liking the English weather?
No, they failed for other reasons, whether that's not suiting our tactics, depression... whatever
I'm not saying domestic transfers are risk free (this is addressed to Dr Quinzel, who also misunderstood my post) just that with foreign signings, there are additional risks (those I mentioned) that you don't get with domestic signings, making foreign signings inherently riskier overall.
I agree they're cheaper but that's the obvious quid pro quo of them being riskier. I also agree with Dr Quinzel that ultimately "It's all about balance"
All signings are a gamble. Players who think are wrong for us turn out great and others who you think are heading for greatness bomb big time. Look at a few years ago when we signed a whole gang of players over a season and a half who all had the 'british' background so many favour here. vast mnajorty are still leaving a smell behind havinh left long ago.
You can hopefully mitigate the risks by going for known players with known backgrounds (known by who is the question) but even that has drawbacks.
Stearman for me is a prime example. Loved at Wolves, Captain of his side, fans didnt want to see him go. Bloody dreadful for us. Goes away and gets back in the PL...whats that all about?
Im sure he fits 100% the kind of player almost everyone would want, but he stiffed.
Quote from: MJG on November 14, 2019, 02:51:09 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 01:21:43 PM
Quote from: MJG on November 14, 2019, 01:08:16 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 14, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
If you bring in a player who's already had two or three good seasons in the PL/Championship that risk is substantially zero
We have done that and players have tanked and thats only in the last 4 - 5 years as well.
You almost have to break this argument down into signings from Home and Abroad and then did they do good or bad.
Also as already mentioned a lot of overseas players who come in are possibly cheaper anyway. Maybe 3 over seas players on 10-15K a week with the hope one works is a better gamble than 40K on one player from the championship or PL
But did they fail for the reasons I mentioned, eg, not liking the English weather?
No, they failed for other reasons, whether that's not suiting our tactics, depression... whatever
I'm not saying domestic transfers are risk free (this is addressed to Dr Quinzel, who also misunderstood my post) just that with foreign signings, there are additional risks (those I mentioned) that you don't get with domestic signings, making foreign signings inherently riskier overall.
I agree they're cheaper but that's the obvious quid pro quo of them being riskier. I also agree with Dr Quinzel that ultimately "It's all about balance"
All signings are a gamble. Players who think are wrong for us turn out great and others who you think are heading for greatness bomb big time. Look at a few years ago when we signed a whole gang of players over a season and a half who all had the 'british' background so many favour here. vast mnajorty are still leaving a smell behind havinh left long ago.
You can hopefully mitigate the risks by going for known players with known backgrounds (known by who is the question) but even that has drawbacks.
Stearman for me is a prime example. Loved at Wolves, Captain of his side, fans didnt want to see him go. Bloody dreadful for us. Goes away and gets back in the PL...whats that all about?
Im sure he fits 100% the kind of player almost everyone would want, but he stiffed.
Talking of which, I was watching MOTD the other week and this marauding full back was playing for Brighton and looked great after playing a lovely ball up the line for the winger to set up the winner in the last minute. Turns out it was Dan Burn....had to check what I'd been drinking! He did ok for us....but Premier league full back....it questions everything I know about football :doh:
Quote from: Barrett487 on November 12, 2019, 08:56:11 PM
Sorry, but you have to perform for your club.... it doesn't matter retrospectively if you perform elsewhere.
Good luck to him, but while he was a walk-on for us i suspect his mind was on playing elsewhere.
This! I really don't care about past history and rep nor post history successes. All that matters is what he did for FFC. Quite frankly, mostly unimpressive, to say the least......
