"The last time we got promoted, we were struggling by Christmas but then we went on a little bit of a run. If we get a run going, we'll be around it."
A little bit of a run? Bit more than that I fancy.
Quote from: MikeW on November 20, 2019, 05:21:41 PM
"The last time we got promoted, we were struggling by Christmas but then we went on a little bit of a run. If we get a run going, we'll be around it."
A little bit of a run? Bit more than that I fancy.
Haha...yeah, hoping for a FFC all time best unbeaten run to magically appear during this campaign is a bit of a stretch.
Will continue hoping though....fingers crossed.....
Don't like that at all. Basically justifies further poor results over the next couple of weeks on the basis that we could (but realistically we won't) experience another post-Christmas miracle.
He should be coming out and saying the team is underachieving and they need to step it up, starting this Friday.
I increasingly get the impression Parker casts himself as the players' best mate, which is fine for getting 70% effort from them but if you want 100% you probably need to be their worst nightmare at times.
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Don't like that at all. Basically justifies further poor results over the next couple of weeks on the basis that we could (but realistically we won't) experience another post-Christmas miracle.
He should be coming out and saying the team is underachieving and they need to step it up, starting this Friday.
I increasingly get the impression Parker casts himself as the players' best mate, which is fine for getting 70% effort from them but if you want 100% you probably need to be their worst nightmare at times.
Yep,
when viewing training photos everyone seems to be having a laugh, not what's needed, more discipline is needed.
Quote from: Enfield on November 20, 2019, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Don't like that at all. Basically justifies further poor results over the next couple of weeks on the basis that we could (but realistically we won't) experience another post-Christmas miracle.
He should be coming out and saying the team is underachieving and they need to step it up, starting this Friday.
I increasingly get the impression Parker casts himself as the players' best mate, which is fine for getting 70% effort from them but if you want 100% you probably need to be their worst nightmare at times.
Yep,
when viewing training photos everyone seems to be having a laugh, not what's needed, more discipline is needed.
I assume you are joking, but on the off chance that the comment was serious, this one is really out there in my opinion. Personally I would definitely not draw any sort of conclusions at all about anything ever from a select few photos of a training session. But to each their own I guess, and this would be far from the first time on here that conclusions are made from nothing (or next to it).
Now, whether Parker has instilled the sufficient discipline and mentality in the squad may be debatable. Unfortunately, at this point in time it is very difficult to assess in my opinion. Neither some comments at a press conference, nor a few players laughing in training photos paints much of a picture really.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 20, 2019, 07:40:29 PM
Neither some comments at a press conference, nor a few players laughing in training photos paints much of a picture really.
My view is derived from a broad range of quotes and actions both by and about Parker over the last year and even before. But thank you for assuming it's based on a single quote or some photos. May I reciprocate with a similarly wild and insulting assumption, and assume your comments are based on how Parker ties his tie. That being the case, I must say with all due respect, I think it absurd to make judgments about someone's management skills based on how they tie a tie.
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 08:11:11 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 20, 2019, 07:40:29 PM
I assume you are joking, but on the off chance that the comment was serious, this one is really out there in my opinion. Personally I would definitely not draw any sort of conclusions at all about anything ever from a select few photos of a training session. But to each their own I guess, and this would be far from the first time on here that conclusions are made from nothing (or next to it).
Now, whether Parker has instilled the sufficient discipline and mentality in the squad may be debatable. Unfortunately, at this point in time it is very difficult to assess in my opinion. Neither some comments at a press conference, nor a few players laughing in training photos paints much of a picture really.
My view is derived from a broad range of quotes and actions both by and about Parker over the last year and even before. But thank you for assuming it's based on a single quote or some photos. May I reciprocate with a similarly wild and insulting assumption, and assume your comments are based on how Parker ties his tie. That being the case, I must say with all due respect, I think it absurd to make judgments about someone's management skills based on how they tie a tie.
Thank you for clarifying, although you misread me.
My first comment was against the training photo comment (which I did find ridiculous, hence why I quoted it), not against your comment (which I didn't find ridiculous, and which just happened to tag along because the previous poster quoted you). After that, I stated that in my opinion it is difficult to assess (SPs level of friendliness with the players). I didn't state that others have to find it difficult. I also did not state that I believed that your comment was based solely on the comment in the press conference.
I hope that clears it up. Sorry if I unintentionally insulted you.
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Don't like that at all. Basically justifies further poor results over the next couple of weeks on the basis that we could (but realistically we won't) experience another post-Christmas miracle.
He should be coming out and saying the team is underachieving and they need to step it up, starting this Friday.
I increasingly get the impression Parker casts himself as the players' best mate, which is fine for getting 70% effort from them but if you want 100% you probably need to be their worst nightmare at times.
Well said!!
"A little bit of a run" has to be the managerial understatement of the season. It was a run that Parker is never going to achieve.
To stand a chance of a top six finish he has to get his players performing better starting on Friday not waiting for a miracle of a post Christmas run. Make no mistake to date his players have underachieved and really he should be honest with us and come out and say just that.
Quote from: Enfield on November 20, 2019, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Don't like that at all. Basically justifies further poor results over the next couple of weeks on the basis that we could (but realistically we won't) experience another post-Christmas miracle.
He should be coming out and saying the team is underachieving and they need to step it up, starting this Friday.
I increasingly get the impression Parker casts himself as the players' best mate, which is fine for getting 70% effort from them but if you want 100% you probably need to be their worst nightmare at times.
Yep,
when viewing training photos everyone seems to be having a laugh, not what's needed, more discipline is needed.
Not sure 'training photos' mean anything. Almost certainly taken by a staff photographer before the players start any serious traning session. I would be more worried if they looked pissed off before training started!
Blimey. Im worrying more now if we're thinking of post christmas runs as a way to salvage the season....we should be making it right before xmas and build from a strong position......Starting to even dislike Parkers attitude when he says stuff like this.
Quote from: copthornemike on November 20, 2019, 10:20:12 PM
Quote from: Enfield on November 20, 2019, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Don't like that at all. Basically justifies further poor results over the next couple of weeks on the basis that we could (but realistically we won't) experience another post-Christmas miracle.
He should be coming out and saying the team is underachieving and they need to step it up, starting this Friday.
I increasingly get the impression Parker casts himself as the players' best mate, which is fine for getting 70% effort from them but if you want 100% you probably need to be their worst nightmare at times.
Yep,
when viewing training photos everyone seems to be having a laugh, not what's needed, more discipline is needed.
Not sure 'training photos' mean anything. Almost certainly taken by a staff photographer before the players start any serious traning session. I would be more worried if they looked pissed off before training started!
I'm sure Enfield can defend himself but just because he gives training photos as an example, that doesn't seem to me to imply that's all his opinion his based on.
For me, to elaborate on my post above, I've got the sense ever since Parker took over that he has a great relationship with the players. After all, he was one of them not that long ago, and the kind who did things like (reportedly) covering the fine Magath levied on Hyndman for some reason. Then he comes back as coach, putting his arms around Anguissa etc, and all the players consistently say in interviews how much they like him. There's very little, if any, criticism of the players in his post-match interviews, and no anger, except of course when he angrily defended Arter after his sending off. But all the while he's been this warm and friendly to the players, their performances have generally alternated between absolute sh1te (last season) and lukewarm (this season) just as they did back when he was captain. So IMO there's a body of evidence to support this view that he's all carrot and no stick, and of course you can add the smiley training photos to that even if they don't count for much on their own.
I think it's a shame if players aren't going to feel able to smile in training photos because some might construe it as not taking their job seriously.
In the old days - i mean the 60's, when i began supporting Fulham, and used to go and watch them training sometimes, as well as hanging around outside the Cottage for autographs after every home game, i think you could say that the, mostly not that well paid under the wage capping that existed - until Haynes broke it and became the first £100 a week player, players didn't take it it too seriously. Compared to today anyway.
Well, that Fulham team certainly seemed to underachieve, with the all talent it contained - Haynes, Cohen, Leggat, Macedo Mullery, Robson, Langley, Clarke, Marsh, Macdonald etc., though we were probably lacking in certain positions, with top internationals alongside some fairly ordinary, though viewed with great affection by fans, players - in hindsight.
We were mostly struggling against relegation for the 60's, until finally going down. The club also sold top players, and very talented up and coming young players, at crucial times, and replaced them with players of lesser standard.
But that was then, and was a part of Fulham's charm, the friendly, cosy ground near the River, where things weren't taken too seriously. But things are different today. And i would be very surprised if the Fulham players, manager and staff, didn't have a completely professional attitude towards their job, a job in which you can gain great benefits and lifestyle, but where you are constantly on the line, and have to perform, or else you're out.
Whether Scott is very, or too, friendly towards the players, is something i have no way of knowing, because who knows what he is like behind the scenes, where i strongly suspect he is more critical on occasion than he seems in public.
Isn't that was players respect - don't slag them off publically, which can cause rifts and poor morale, do it behind closed doors.
That's my personal take on it anyway.
The nuance of a language and the problems it doth cause. A misplaced breath in some tongues can be the difference between a compliment and an insult and a date for a duel. But here we have understatement used to demonstrate the greatness of something that went before much as I could imagine the players who were around at the time referring to it. And whilst we are entitled to doubt Parker's ability until he proves otherwise there is absolutely no reason for anybody to say he can't do it ever. Runs like that achieved by Jokanovic and even longer can come along at any time. You just have to start it going. So far our unbeaten run is one game and so let's see if we can make it two wins out of two just to settle into a nice pattern for the future e.g. four wins in four, etc.
And, as RaySmith says, you really don't need to air your dirty linen in public.
Stopped listening to press conferences pre-game a long time ago. Too many quotes such as this raise eyebrows and frustrate me, so I just let myself judge them on the pitch.
Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2019, 10:50:23 PM
So IMO there's a body of evidence to support this view that he's all carrot and no stick, and of course you can add the smiley training photos to that even if they don't count for much on their own.
Bloody hell, I hope I don't ever get sent down on your paltry body of evidence. They're in fact just snippets that you've chosen to interpret in that manner.
You see paying Hyndman's fine as odd it would seem, I see it as a senior professional stepping forward and protecting a young player.
I thought Anguissa showed a marked improvement after the exact incident that you mention, as most fans did!
Protecting Arter- isn't that what 99% of managers would do?
I would also question your "lukewarm" appraisal of the season thus far. I read somewhere that after 12 games it was our best start to a season for 19 years!!! There's been some poor performances no doubt (Barnsley, Hull and Stoke) but there's been some sensational ones too (Millwall, Reading and I'd even say 70 mins against West Brom we were excellent), rest just OK (Luton, Boro, Huddersfield etc).
I think Scott's doing pretty well. I never read too much into press conferences and prefer to see what players make of their "boss". It was easy to see what players thought of Ranieri/Magath even Symons at times compared to how they are with SP.
The 19 years thing is a bit of misnomer when you consider how many of those were in the Premier League, where we wouldn't expect to be top 6.
But slightly off topic, so apologise.
Quote from: Jim© on November 21, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
Bloody hell, I hope I don't ever get sent down on your paltry body of evidence. They're in fact just snippets that you've chosen to interpret in that manner.
You see paying Hyndman's fine as odd it would seem, I see it as a senior professional stepping forward and protecting a young player.
I thought Anguissa showed a marked improvement after the exact incident that you mention, as most fans did!
Protecting Arter- isn't that what 99% of managers would do?
No I do not expect 99% of managers to invariably defend players and never criticise them publicly. All the top managers, including Hogson and Jokanovic, regularly call out mistakes and poor performance publicly. Parker doesn't, and there's no evidence he does it privately either.
And for the record I never said the Hyndman incident was "odd" or disputed that there was "a marked improvement" after the Anguissa incident. I think you're missing my point with all due respect. I've no issue with a bit of 'carrot' if it's balanced against a bit of 'stick'. Parker is all carrot and no stick.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 21, 2019, 11:25:30 AM
The 19 years thing is a bit of misnomer when you consider how many of those were in the Premier League, where we wouldn't expect to be top 6.
But slightly off topic, so apologise.
Not off topic.
I believe we only finished in the top six in 2 out of those 19 seasons, and even then it was only 6th and 3rd. Unless our objective this year is just to avoid relegation to League One, they're not a useful benchmark.
Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2019, 02:05:20 PM
No I do not expect 99% of managers to invariably defend players and never criticise them publicly. All the top managers, including Hogson and Jokanovic, regularly call out mistakes and poor performance publicly. Parker doesn't, and there's no evidence he does it privately either.
And for the record I never said the Hyndman incident was "odd" or disputed that there was "a marked improvement" after the Anguissa incident. I think you're missing my point with all due respect. I've no issue with a bit of 'carrot' if it's balanced against a bit of 'stick'. Parker is all carrot and no stick.
Fair enough, but the point I was making (badly) was that privately we don't know how Parker is and what he says/does with the players ("no evidence he does is privately" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it?). Personally, after watching him play and make the very very best out of meagre ability, I'd think that he'd not accept anything other than 100% from his team.
Me personally ,,I would like to make the playoffs and not win promotion, I prefer the championship..
Quote from: Jim© on November 21, 2019, 02:22:10 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2019, 02:05:20 PM
No I do not expect 99% of managers to invariably defend players and never criticise them publicly. All the top managers, including Hogson and Jokanovic, regularly call out mistakes and poor performance publicly. Parker doesn't, and there's no evidence he does it privately either.
And for the record I never said the Hyndman incident was "odd" or disputed that there was "a marked improvement" after the Anguissa incident. I think you're missing my point with all due respect. I've no issue with a bit of 'carrot' if it's balanced against a bit of 'stick'. Parker is all carrot and no stick.
Fair enough, but the point I was making (badly) was that privately we don't know how Parker is and what he says/does with the players ("no evidence he does is privately" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it?). Personally, after watching him play and make the very very best out of meagre ability, I'd think that he'd not accept anything other than 100% from his team.
No it is not in any way an "oxymoron" to speak of evidence of something done privately.
If I guy in a balaclava runs out of a bank holding a sack of cash and a gun, chased by a security guard and two police officers, that's "evidence" that "privately" he just robbed the bank. You do not need to have seen the actually robbery to infer what happened.
Similarly, if our team was performing to the best of the players' inherent ability, that would be "evidence" that Parker is doing a good job with his coaching and man management "privately" at Motspur Park.
The fact the team are only at about 70% effort at the moment is "evidence" that "privately" Parker is not doing a great job.
Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2019, 02:30:51 PM
No it is not in any way an "oxymoron" to speak of evidence of something done privately.
If I guy in a balaclava runs out of a bank holding a sack of cash and a gun, chased by a security guard and two police officers, that's "evidence" that "privately" he just robbed the bank. You do not need to have seen the actually robbery to infer what happened.
Similarly, if our team was performing to the best of the players' inherent ability, that would be "evidence" that Parker is doing a good job with his coaching and man management "privately" at Motspur Park.
The fact the team are only at about 70% effort at the moment is "evidence" that "privately" Parker is not doing a great job.
I agree with you that it is not an oxymoron to refer to what you believe is going on behind closed doors and draw a conclusion based on the "evidence" (the performance by the team). But if we agree that the team is under performing to some degree (like up to a completely arbitrary 70 % of the expected level), those alleged sub par performances by the team can depend on so many factors so that it is in my opinion very difficult to nail down the actual cause(s).
If we exclude the possibility that the players are not just good enough (because past evidence suggest strongly that they should be sufficient to challenge for the title), then does the sub par performances depend on SP? Maybe completely, but at least certainly to a degree since it is his job to make the team perform. In any case it is SP's problem, because he is the obvious one taking the blame should the Khans share the belief that the team is under performing. Therefore SP is the one that has to find a solution. But that is probably beside the point.
So even if we agree that the team is under performing (which is reasonable in my view, btw), and if we also agree that it is at least to a large degree because of SP (which is also reasonable in my view) we then have to determine what it is that he does wrong (or fails to do at all perhaps). Let's for the sake of argument even agree that it would be a problem
if SP was much carrot and little stick. Even if we would agree on all of that, this is where I am not at all keen to draw conclusions from what is still in my view extremely limited evidence at best. We don't know what is said or done at training or after or before games behind closed doors. I don't find the fact that SP does not want to criticize players publicly as any sort of evidence for him not being able to criticize them privately. The performance of the team is certainly no evidence in this regard, unless we conclude that the only possible reason for a team to under perform is that the coach is too much carrot and too little stick. I don't believe that it's the only possible reason.
As a side note, I think it honors SP that he does not criticize players publicly. I understand that people may have different views here, but in my book you keep a united front and sort out potential issues internally. That's why I also wasn't impressed when Ream openly complained about some of the new guys last season. In my book that is trying to deflect blame and it is the opposite of taking responsibility.
Quote from: ex-Pat on November 21, 2019, 02:26:19 PM
Me personally ,,I would like to make the playoffs and not win promotion, I prefer the championship..
Why?
Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2019, 02:30:51 PM
The fact the team are only at about 70% effort at the moment is "evidence" that "privately" Parker is not doing a great job.
Sorry, but I can't agree with much or any of this.
Your comparison of a bank robbery and SP dealing with playing issues behind closed doors doesn't add anything.
Your "fact" that the team are only putting in 70% effort is not a fact at all, purely your view. Even top end fitness technology struggles to work out 70% effort, so how one fan can by eye is impressive or fantasy. Therefore the supposed 70% just cannot in any way be used as evidence- or that privately he's not getting things right with the team.
What I'll agree on is that there's probably more to come from this team. However I'd suggest it's much more to do with coaching tweaks than anything untoward with the manager!!!
Quote from: Jim© on November 21, 2019, 04:29:47 PM
it's much more to do with coaching tweaks than anything untoward with the manager
now THAT is an oxymoron
Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2019, 05:01:45 PM
Quote from: Jim© on November 21, 2019, 04:29:47 PM
it's much more to do with coaching tweaks than anything untoward with the manager
now THAT is an oxymoron
There's been loads, some have worked some haven't. If a coach, even that was top of the league had stopped tweaking his team/tactics, then no point in coaching them anymore surely?
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 21, 2019, 04:05:57 PM
So even if we agree that the team is under performing (which is reasonable in my view, btw), and if we also agree that it is at least to a large degree because of SP (which is also reasonable in my view) we then have to determine what it is that he does wrong (or fails to do at all perhaps). Let's for the sake of argument even agree that it would be a problem if SP was much carrot and little stick. Even if we would agree on all of that, this is where I am not at all keen to draw conclusions from what is still in my view extremely limited evidence at best. We don't know what is said or done at training or after or before games behind closed doors. I don't find the fact that SP does not want to criticize players publicly as any sort of evidence for him not being able to criticize them privately. The performance of the team is certainly no evidence in this regard, unless we conclude that the only possible reason for a team to under perform is that the coach is too much carrot and too little stick. I don't believe that it's the only possible reason.
Fine. A well-reasoned post which I agree with. But the nature of a football forum is such that we can speculate "what it is that he does wrong". I don't claim my theory is anything more than that - a theory, largely speculative - but with some foundation in the factual observations I mentioned further up the thread.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 21, 2019, 04:05:57 PM
As a side note, I think it honors SP that he does not criticize players publicly. I understand that people may have different views here, but in my book you keep a united front and sort out potential issues internally. That's why I also wasn't impressed when Ream openly complained about some of the new guys last season. In my book that is trying to deflect blame and it is the opposite of taking responsibility.
I can see where you're coming from but suspect you'd struggle to name a great manager who hasn't publicly criticised his players.
***
On this subject I would also quote our very own Mark Schwarzer, talking about Roy Hodgson a few years ago (I know he isn't necessarily talking about public criticism):
"He can be an angry little man at times, but that's what you need to be. It's well documented that Sir Alex Ferguson has got a very mean streak, as do other managers who are successful. I don't know any manager who's successful who hasn't got that angry streak, or that ruthless streak. Our manager is no different."
Quote from: ex-Pat on November 21, 2019, 02:26:19 PM
Me personally ,,I would like to make the playoffs and not win promotion, I prefer the championship..
Booo :031:
Far too complicated for me to follow all this analysis and opinion, mine is simple we are underforming because we are overrated! We could be good, maybe very good but so far this season we aren´t for whatever reason??
Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2019, 05:12:46 PM
Fine. A well-reasoned post which I agree with. But the nature of a football forum is such that we can speculate "what it is that he does wrong". I don't claim my theory is anything more than that - a theory, largely speculative - but with some foundation in the factual observations I mentioned further up the thread.
I agree, and did not in any way mean to infer that you claimed your speculation to be anything more than that. Neither did I try to belittle your arguments, or claim that you are wrong. Speculation is very welcome in my book, especially when it is based on some sort of logical thinking. My post was meant to offer my opinion on the conclusion of the speculation (not the merits of it as such), based on my personal observations (or lack thereof). It is quite good that we're not all agreeing or seeing things the same way all the time, because if we did the forum would be very uninteresting.
Quote from: davew on November 21, 2019, 07:36:49 PM
Far too complicated for me to follow all this analysis and opinion, mine is simple we are underforming because we are overrated! We could be good, maybe very good but so far this season we aren´t for whatever reason??
If we are overrated, then maybe we are not underperforming? Or was that maybe your point (that we are underperforming in relation to unrealistic expectations)?
There are plenty of public incidents or events inaccurately speculated upon or reported via media or apparent witnesses to them etc., to make me certain none of us has a cat in hell's chance of being certain of the 'truth' of some situations whatever we take evidence to mean. This uncertainty also covers more public implied criticism of players e.g. early substitutions for non-injury related reasons even when a manager explicitly criticises someone since we may not know the background behind this apparent rift. We all see things differently and our brains are wired differently and for someone to say their brain is wired better than all the rest is a mighty dangerous game. The football we watch meantime may show little improvement after lots of hard work, and marked improvement simply because something clicks for no reason other than a coincidence in time and wavelengths. The art form is knowing which is which and like most art it is often a matter of taste, masterpiece or no masterpiece.
Parker does things his way and he is, like all of us, still learning. Whether he is doing okay or not may be something to do with taste.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 21, 2019, 09:32:24 PM
Quote from: davew on November 21, 2019, 07:36:49 PM
Far too complicated for me to follow all this analysis and opinion, mine is simple we are underforming because we are overrated! We could be good, maybe very good but so far this season we aren´t for whatever reason??
If we are overrated, then maybe we are not underperforming? Or was that maybe your point (that we are underperforming in relation to unrealistic expectations)?
Exactly!
