No superstars, hard working, great team spirit, quick incisive attacking side, hard to break down. 5th in January, no way are they going down. Tony Khan should learn a thing or two from them. Wage bill a fraction of ours. Championship promotion winning sides will rarely rock up in the premier and outplay sides, they need to fight, be organised and earn the privilege to play. No way will signing short term mercenaries and playing ticky tacka negative possession football going to work.
Easy to say with hindsight. Agree, they are doing well. The manager is probably the key with Shef Utd. He's worked wonders with some average players.
Tici-tacka possession football can work, as long as we score two goals per game and conceeded only one. If Fulham is going to play a style that only scores every 35 minutes of possession then we need to be holding on to the ball fir 70 minutes per game, which occurred against Milwalll and probably only Milwall.
If you going to pass a couple of metres like Mawson has been doing then an 87% pass completion rate that is much too low for tifo-taca to work and 87% definitely to low be passing the ball out from the goal area with Luton doing a high press (Hoddle and Guilt can do it Mawson cannot). We either need to be getting our backs pass completion rates above 95% or maintain the current completion rate with 5m of extra forward distance or kick the ball 50m to Mitro with 50% success like Hull would do.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on January 10, 2020, 11:09:57 PM
No superstars, hard working, great team spirit...
I think the same is true of Norwich, but they're propping up the table. In other words, such a strategy won't necessarily be enough; if it were, we wouldn't all be so surprised at how well Sheffield United are doing.
Even now, I wonder how much harder it will be for the Blades to steer themselves clear of relegation next season.
Where will they finish?
Next season will be the test, as said.
Good luck to them, though, a fine example for smaller clubs, like Fulham, though I groan when i see their success used as stick to knock Fulham with. Remember that we managed 13 years i the Prem, finishing as high as ninth one year. Now we again are fortunate to have a wealthy owner backing us, but now there is FFP to contend with.
Times have changed. Also Norwich are an attacking footballing side compared to Sheffield United. United show that to succeed you need a dedicated and hard working bunch with good team spirit. Signing Seri, Schurrle and co was a mistake and we are unlikely to go up and start playing teams off the pitch. More grit and work required than our current model.
I think Sheff United is a lesson to Fulham on how to handle the premier league. We made a right mess of it last season.
Quote from: RaySmith on January 11, 2020, 04:58:51 AM
Where will they finish?
Next season will be the test, as said.
Good luck to them, though, a fine example for smaller clubs, like Fulham, though I groan when i see their success used as stick to knock Fulham with. Remember that we managed 13 years i the Prem, finishing as high as ninth one year. Now we again are fortunate to have a wealthy owner backing us, but now there is FFP to contend with.
We have also finished 7th to qualify for Europa league right after the great escape and 8th under Mark Hughes.
They could still go down. We beat them comfortably in both games last time around and they have more or less the same team. Of course fight and work earns you the right to play but you need quality too,to able to play.
Quote from: colinwhite on January 11, 2020, 08:20:53 AM
They could still go down. We beat them comfortably in both games last time around and they have more or less the same team. Of course fight and work earns you the right to play but you need quality too,to able to play.
They need 10 points from last 16 games
Took a long time to build ...
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
We were terrible when we went up, but it isn't as easy as just saying 'do what Sheff have done'.
They are currently doing something that I can't remember any newly promoted team doing in my lifetime. Been a long time since Cloughie could do this.
Imagine having a manager who was tactically astute, coached well, tailored a formation to suit his players, and inspired them to play far above their abilities as individuals....
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
Exactly right about the damned stats etc, as somebody else said, the club made a right mess of our season in the Premier League last year, I hope they can learn from the way teams like Sheffield United operate and look at their philosophies regarding the recruitment of players, but then again unlike us they probably have a qualified D of F.
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
I cannot find any, probably because proper D of F and recruitment staff go and watch targets at away matches to find out the character and mentality of players when in a hostile away environment when things do not go their way and are under the cosh, to see how they react. Do they shrink and hide under a blade of grass like like many Fulhams recruits have done in the recent past. Or do they stand up to the challenge and roll their sleeves up, take responsibility and show some bolox.
I know it's been done to death on here but the VAR decision at that match last night must rank as VAR at its very worst. I'm no West Ham fan but they were robbed by that decision . Diabolicle.
Quote from: Ordar on January 11, 2020, 10:25:13 AM
Imagine having a manager who was tactically astute, coached well, tailored a formation to suit his players, and inspired them to play far above their abilities as individuals....
Hodgson managed to guide a squad that was essentially the same as the one that was going down to a similar position as Sheffield U and an EL final. It is amazing how many people underestimate the contributions of a good manager here.
Quote from: Tabby on January 11, 2020, 12:58:40 PM
Quote from: Ordar on January 11, 2020, 10:25:13 AM
Imagine having a manager who was tactically astute, coached well, tailored a formation to suit his players, and inspired them to play far above their abilities as individuals....
Hodgson managed to guide a squad that was essentially the same as the one that was going down to a similar position as Sheffield U and an EL final. It is amazing how many people underestimate the contributions of a good manager here.
It made me think of Hodgson too. Possibly Coleman in some ways - I think he did marvelously with us with what was a merry band of men, with the exception of three or four real talents. Although Coleman seemed less about the tactics and more about man management.
Quote from: Tabby on January 11, 2020, 12:58:40 PM
Quote from: Ordar on January 11, 2020, 10:25:13 AM
Imagine having a manager who was tactically astute, coached well, tailored a formation to suit his players, and inspired them to play far above their abilities as individuals....
Hodgson managed to guide a squad that was essentially the same as the one that was going down to a similar position as Sheffield U and an EL final. It is amazing how many people underestimate the contributions of a good manager here.
:plus one: 0001.jpeg
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 11, 2020, 12:13:32 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
I cannot find any, probably because proper D of F and recruitment staff go and watch targets at away matches to find out the character and mentality of players when in a hostile away environment when things do not go their way and are under the cosh, to see how they react. Do they shrink and hide under a blade of grass like like many Fulhams recruits have done in the recent past. Or do they stand up to the challenge and roll their sleeves up, take responsibility and show some bolox.
Bang on the money. Stats mean nothing if the player has no drive, determination and passion about them. We sign players like Seri, Schurrle and countless others who have none.
My eyes are on London rivals Millwall and Brentford both could be above us and in the top six at 5pm.
Bet no one predicted that at the beginning of the season.
Quote from: filham on January 11, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
My eyes are on London rivals Millwall and Brentford both could be above us and in the top six at 5pm.
Bet no one predicted that at the beginning of the season.
Exactly the technically inferior Millwall that we outclassed could go above us and Brentford on a fraction of the transfer and wage budget currently sit 4 points above us. Shows what a poor job Tony Khan and Parker are doing given our resources.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on January 11, 2020, 02:43:35 PM
Quote from: filham on January 11, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
My eyes are on London rivals Millwall and Brentford both could be above us and in the top six at 5pm.
Bet no one predicted that at the beginning of the season.
Exactly the technically inferior Millwall that we outclassed could go above us and Brentford on a fraction of the transfer and wage budget currently sit 4 points above us. Shows what a poor job Tony Khan and Parker are doing given our resources.
Precisely
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 11, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
Exactly right about the damned stats etc, as somebody else said, the club made a right mess of our season in the Premier League last year, I hope they can learn from the way teams like Sheffield United operate and look at their philosophies regarding the recruitment of players, but then again unlike us they probably have a qualified D of F.
Statistics show passion or at least they show how many balls you chase down, which is often how fans measure passion as well.
Sheffield United whoscored statistics this season for individual performance are AMAZING even compared to Liverpool's. While Liverpool statistics normally show 5 great player performances, 4 solid performances and 2 poor performances. Sheffield United has 11 solid players performances every game. Every player in the team is turning out marginally better statistically performance than Calum Chambers gave us last season and 11 players playing better than Calum Chambers last season every game should get you 5th.
Even with Rico, Chambers, Babel and Mitro with good statistics, Fulham 2018/19 is still the 2nd worst whoscored player statistics in the history of the premier league. The statistics show that given how badly the individual players played we should have done much worse. And, if it wasn't for Rico, Chambers, and Mitro we would have easily had the worst statistics of any team in recorded premier league history (i.e. a decade of whoscored stats).
Statistics full explain Sheffield United performance this season and our poor player statistics full explain Fulham's performance last season. We should be using more statistics in our recruitment like Brentford and Sheffield United do, not less. Seri's statistics were good, but were not good enough to justify his price tag.
The question with statistics is a) why when recruiting players like Knockaert and Reid have great statistics, passion and great to watch performances at one club, but doesn't have any where near as good statistics at Fulham; or b) why players with average statistics at one club (like Salah, De Bynrne, Mitro and most of the Sheffield United Players) join another club to produce great statistics. Very few clubs not just Fulham seem to not be very good at recruiting with most clubs getting it wrong 60% of the time.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 12, 2020, 01:06:10 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 11, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
Exactly right about the damned stats etc, as somebody else said, the club made a right mess of our season in the Premier League last year, I hope they can learn from the way teams like Sheffield United operate and look at their philosophies regarding the recruitment of players, but then again unlike us they probably have a qualified D of F.
Statistics show passion or at least they show how many balls you chase down, which is often how fans measure passion as well.
Sheffield United whoscored statistics this season for individual performance are AMAZING even compared to Liverpool's. While Liverpool statistics normally show 5 great player performances, 4 solid performances and 2 poor performances. Sheffield United has 11 solid players performances every game. Every player is turning out the kind of statistically performance that Calum Chambers gave us last season and XI Calum Chambers gets you 5th.
Even with Rico, Chambers, Babel and Mitro with good statistics, Fulham 2018/19 is still the 2nd worst whoscored player statistics in the history of the premier league. The statistics show that given how badly the individual players played we should have done much worse. And, if it wasn't for Rico, Chambers, and Mitro we would have esay had the worst statistics of any team in the premier league.
Statistics full explain Sheffield United performance this season and poor player statistics full explain Fulham's performance last season.
The question with statistics is a) why when recruiting players like Knockaert and Reid have great statistics, passion and great to watch performances at one club, but doesn't have any where near as good statistics at Fulham; or b) why players with average statistics at one club (like Salah, De Bynrne, Mitro and most of the Sheffield United Players) join another club to produce great statistics.
I feel you have unfortunately been influenced by stats as though it is one of the Ten Commandments.
You don't need stats to measure passion, work rate, commitment, appetite, loyalty, honesty, tenacity, desire, heart beat, communication, social skills and command of the English language. It's not the man in the fight, it's the fight in the man.
Hence the reason why so many players signed on the strength of stats have failed miserably and arrived through the entrance at MP and left by the exit door without literally blinking an eyelid, too many errors of judgement which have been financial burdens. A profusion of players have come and gone due to this policy. If the club is going to use stats as a addition to their recruitment policy, at least use them properly as other clubs have used them far more successfully than TK and his recruitment unit whose record is mediocre at best, which is where the problem lies. So if anyone should take the responsibility of this issue it's them.
I.E ... of late we've signed very few Simon Morgans, Brian McBride's, Brede Hangelands, Danny Murphy's, Clint Dempseys, Rufus Brevetts, Chris Coleman's, Lee Clarks and the like.THESE are the type of players we need.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on January 12, 2020, 01:06:10 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on January 11, 2020, 12:07:42 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
Exactly right about the damned stats etc, as somebody else said, the club made a right mess of our season in the Premier League last year, I hope they can learn from the way teams like Sheffield United operate and look at their philosophies regarding the recruitment of players, but then again unlike us they probably have a qualified D of F.
Statistics show passion or at least they show how many balls you chase down, which is often how fans measure passion as well.
Sheffield United whoscored statistics this season for individual performance are AMAZING even compared to Liverpool's. While Liverpool statistics normally show 5 great player performances, 4 solid performances and 2 poor performances. Sheffield United has 11 solid players performances every game. Every player in the team is turning out marginally better statistically performance than Calum Chambers gave us last season and 11 players playing better than Calum Chambers last season every game should get you 5th.
Even with Rico, Chambers, Babel and Mitro with good statistics, Fulham 2018/19 is still the 2nd worst whoscored player statistics in the history of the premier league. The statistics show that given how badly the individual players played we should have done much worse. And, if it wasn't for Rico, Chambers, and Mitro we would have easily had the worst statistics of any team in recorded premier league history (i.e. a decade of whoscored stats).
Statistics full explain Sheffield United performance this season and our poor player statistics full explain Fulham's performance last season. We should be using more statistics in our recruitment like Brentford and Sheffield United do, not less. Seri's statistics were good, but were not good enough to justify his price tag.
The question with statistics is a) why when recruiting players like Knockaert and Reid have great statistics, passion and great to watch performances at one club, but doesn't have any where near as good statistics at Fulham; or b) why players with average statistics at one club (like Salah, De Bynrne, Mitro and most of the Sheffield United Players) join another club to produce great statistics. Very few clubs not just Fulham seem to not be very good at recruiting with most clubs getting it wrong 60% of the time.
It shows how many variables come into play in making a successful team.
Sometimes there's just a magic ingredient which you can't define, and which can't be computerised.
You sometimes get a group of players who just perform well together, although they may not always be the greatest players.
Combined with manager and coaching staff who know how to get the best of the players available, then you can have a recipe for success, that just buying players top of the stats list and throwing them together won't.
Reading sporting literature and bios, one thing is a mantra - no-one is successful without hard work and dedication, and this is at least equal, or even superior, to natural ability.
Players with great natural ability, but no work ethic or desire and willingness to work a t least as hard as everyone else, won't get anywhere. Whereas a player with little natural ability can attain success by dint of desire and sheer hard work.
No team will get anywhere without these attributes, usually overseen , even instilled, by manager and coaching staff.
The consistently successful clubs all have this.
I refer again to a Peter Crouch podcast - where he speaks of being at Liverpool and Gerrard would fire passes at him in training, and you had to be able to control the ball and lay it off quickly or else - you'd be out, no matter how much the club has paid for you. Crouch said that all the top clubs have these types of players - leaders on and off the pitch, and a work ethic and high standards instilled right through the club. This gains success.
A player who has the right attitude - who will work selflessly for the team can be invaluable to a team's success, and most teams have these types of unsung heroes, whereas a player who with great skill, but doesn't want to work for the team, or hides if things aren't going well, can be more of a liability.
I think Scott Parker was the type of player who always led by example - witness when he was the sole experienced player in Magath's team of youngsters, and always grafted and gave his all in his playing career, and i'm sure he tries to instil these values at Fulham.
Im glad Im not watching Sheffield united every week . They could still get relegated by the way.
amazing
Quote from: colinwhite on January 12, 2020, 11:29:27 AM
Im glad Im not watching Sheffield united every week . They could still get relegated by the way.
I wouldn't waste money betting on them for the drop with the dross in the bottom 5. Anyone watching Villa getting caned at home? This side assembled like ours last season for huge budget transfer and wage wise compared to Sheffield United. Also why would watching a well drilled passionate bunch of over achievers fly high in 5th in the premiership halfway through January be awful to watch if you support that club? Beats being a Fulham or Villa fan and watch your team roll over and get destroyed frequently. I'd welcome a mentality and ethos here that Wilder has instilled at Sheff United.
Quote from: The Old Count on January 11, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Are there stats that indicate whether a player has passion, will to win and team spirit?
Serious question. Personally I doubt it.
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It's not a simple formula.
Now, I agree that a team needs to be able to play it's system very well AND defend as a unit. That second part is one of the things Fulham was the worst at that I've seen in my 6 years of watching premier league football.
Michael Hector is a start...(a player that might be able to hang at the next level). The team will need at least 2 more solid defenders to stay up next season. Players that aren't currently on the squad. (and better than Calum Chambers...who was one of our better defenders last season).
Sheffield United whoscored statistics are AMAZING no stars and no underperformers.
Only four teams in the EPL average more than 6.80 (Liverpool, ManCity, Leciester & Chelsea).
So, the below scores are very good, especially the complete lack of a underperformer.
1 Dean Henderson 21 games 6.65 whoscored (better than Rico 18/19 of 6.57)
2 George Baldock 22 games 6.79 whoscored (similar to Fredericks 16/17 of 6.86)
3 Enda Stevens 22 games 6.93 whoscored (better than Odoi 17/18 of 6.90)
4 Chris Basham 22 games 6.97 whoscored (better than Kalas 17/18 of 6.93)
5 John Egan 21 games 6.91 whoscored (better than Mawson 19/20 or Ream 19/20)
6 Jack O'Connell 22 games 6.96 whoscored (better than S.Malone 16/17 of 6.87)
7 John Lundstram 21 games 6.85 whoscored (better than Chamber 18/19 of 6.82)
8 Oliver Norwood 22 games 6.99 whoscored (better than Stefjo 17/18 of 6.86)
9 D. McGoldrick 16 games 6.95 whoscored (better than Knockaert 19/20 of 6.77)
10 Oliver McBurnie 9 games 6.88 whoscored (better than Babel 18/19 of 6.86)
11 John Fleck 19 games 6.95 whoscored (better than Piazon 17/18 of 6.82)
My guess is statistics and watching every game you probably draw the same lesson.
The lesson learnt from Sheffield United is you don't need stars if no one underperforms.
Will they be able to keep this standard up, with potential injuries, and fatigue?
Quote from: RaySmith on January 13, 2020, 06:02:01 AM
Will they be able to keep this standard up, with potential injuries, and fatigue?
I think so yeah
Is the point of this post suggesting that Sheffield Utd`s philosophy and style should be our model ?
Quote from: colinwhite on January 13, 2020, 06:15:29 PM
Is the point of this post suggesting that Sheffield Utd`s philosophy and style should be our model ?
Style is subjective.
Philosephy most definitely
Sheffield United will be relegated next season
