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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: 3-lions on September 15, 2020, 09:31:56 AM

Title: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: 3-lions on September 15, 2020, 09:31:56 AM


Okay so the Carlo Ancelotti effect might have helped source and attract the player I am about to mention. But Allan of Everton. Now that is a SUMMER Signing we lacked? Lemina? well he might be this player, when will Scott put him in? Anguissa not quite the same as Allan , but 'a sort of like' Certainly as much as we like what Reed and TC have done for Fulham Allan or someone of his ilk. Quality, skill etc is what we need playing week in week out.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Andy S on September 15, 2020, 09:37:58 AM
It will take a few games to see who can step up to the plate and who cannot. Sadly I'm not sure that our 1 footed captain will make it but I could be wrong
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Sting of the North on September 15, 2020, 09:49:58 AM
I don't really understand this thread. First of, if you mean  a player of Allan's documented quality that would of course never happen for Fulham currently. Everton is a far bigger club, and Ancelotti is a manager that can attract players that would usually be above them as well (such as Allan and James). If you mean that type of player, then as you mentioned Lemina might be that, and Anguissa may be able to do several of these things, so you kind of answered your own question.

As for the 'when', given that we are approaching match day 2 I don't really see the reason to worry. If they (Lemina/Anguissa) are good enough they will be starting within a few weeks at the very least. None of them has had as much time to train under Parker as for example TC and Reed, and as such Parker may opt to stick with the latter for another few games depending on performances. He has to balance the experience of playing in this system with the other players against the individual quality of the players, especially since we had almost no pre season.

Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Maidstone Lee on September 15, 2020, 09:50:19 AM
For me Cairney is a bit too slow and one footed to cut it in the Prem, hope I'm wrong as he has been a brilliant player for us in the past but when you see teams break from Midfield with pace, you know when Cairney plays at this level we wont be able to do that. You get more time on the ball in the Championship then you do in the Premier League.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: toshes mate on September 15, 2020, 09:51:06 AM
As a long term supporter of FFC I am never sure of myself regarding player selections based upon one game, although there have been points in the Club's history where you just hoped and longed for the same eleven to turn out game after game without injury or interruption.  The midfield was ceratinly very lacking on Saturday and nobody had a good game in my opinion.  Was that nervousness, the 12.30pm kick off time, being awestruck the first time our opponents showed us vulnerability in our own penalty box, or was it something else entirely e.g. the inconsistency that we saw throughout last season?

Parker cannot hope to get all his calls right at every game this season, and he already has experience of the perils the PL may hold for us throughout this season.  The new players will hopefully demonstrate their quality and claim selection on merit, whilst those who failed against Arsenal can come again, much stronger and mire resilient than last time.  What we need are players and a team that can be consistent both before, during and after a game so that the coach hasn't got an impossible workload to manage and little time between games to find problems and fix them.   I am not disheartened post Arsenal.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: rebel on September 15, 2020, 09:52:37 AM
Everyone one was crying out for us to sign Reed, way too early to make a judgement on him. He will need to be commanding in the Prem, which I think he will be.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: absenteeism on September 15, 2020, 10:02:32 AM
Reed was not good on Saturday. Not good.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: ByTheRiver on September 15, 2020, 10:03:06 AM
Everton are, have always been and, unless FFP is completely scrapped, always will be, a much bigger club than us. So we are shopping at different stores. Different levels. That is fine, but we need to keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Lighthouse on September 15, 2020, 10:07:44 AM
Last season our three best players were Reed and Hector and Mitro.

After one game against Arsenal Reed and Hector are no longer good enough. I think we need to maybe give it a little bit of time. Yes we need a centre half and have needed one for some time. But one bad game against a top Prem side does not mean we need to throw the bath at the baby and drown it in bath water.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: ByTheRiver on September 15, 2020, 10:14:34 AM
Quote from: Lighthouse on September 15, 2020, 10:07:44 AM

After one game against Arsenal Reed and Hector are no longer good enough. I think we need to maybe give it a little bit of time. Yes we need a centre half and have needed one for some time. But one bad game against a top Prem side does not mean we need to throw the bath at the baby and drown it in bath water.

And this too (obviously!).
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Mince n Tatties on September 15, 2020, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: absenteeism on September 15, 2020, 10:02:32 AM
Reed was not good on Saturday. Not good.

Strange that 3 papers made him our mom then.😕
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Bill2 on September 15, 2020, 10:37:55 AM
The team on Saturday is highly unlikely to be the team which will be our preferred 11 in a few weeks time and certainly not by the end of the season.
It was an introduction to the Prem from one of the sides who finished the season well last year and with some new additions and lets not forget a completely new experience for a lot of our team. Yes we need to improve and a few of our players were found wanting, but let us have had a few more games before we all start saying they are not good enough.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: copthornemike on September 15, 2020, 10:38:30 AM
Only one match against an excellent side packed full of skilful individuals who are on the up and brimming with confidence.
Certainly we have much to improve on collectively and individually but certainly not replace all 11!
Objectively Reed was one of our best performers throughout his time with us last season for many reasons, not least his attitude so no he is not costing us. Cairney is arguably our most creative player and if we do survive, or better still thive, his creativity will play an important part. Hard to be creative when a side is struggling however.
No problem about the OP asking the question but the title could be better. Certainly most of our team could do better - the question is can Scotty and the players actually perform better? At this early stage I still have faith.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Bassey the warrior on September 15, 2020, 10:40:29 AM
I don't think Cairney is good enough for the Premier League, it's too fast paced for his style. He's used to more time on the ball. I hope he proves me wrong though.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Deeping_white on September 15, 2020, 10:52:40 AM
I don't think it would've mattered who we played at CM against that in form arsenal team because we would've lost. Also don't think they'll necessarily cost us against Leeds either - from memory Reed bossed the game at Elland Road when we restarted the season, and this time he's going to have reinforcements in midfield with him and hopefully better players around him, whereas Leeds still haven't made any improvements in centre midfield.

I have doubts over TC at this level because of how he's thrived in a league where's he's been part of one of the best teams in the league over several years and had time on the ball to dictate play, whereas I think at this level he needs to have more physicality which I don't think he possesses and he's not going to get as much time on the ball in the PL. Obviously I hope he proves me wrong though and has a really good season for us, I think two DM's at this level to do the dirty work with him being more advanced will help us though
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Nero on September 15, 2020, 10:59:13 AM
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on September 15, 2020, 10:40:29 AM
I don't think Cairney is good enough for the Premier League, it's too fast paced for his style. He's used to more time on the ball. I hope he proves me wrong though.

A good player will.make his own tome in the ball, let's hope he can adept
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: filham on September 15, 2020, 11:03:16 AM
Can't believe anyone is being critical of Reed after one match, since the Wembley final we have all been crying out for TK to get his signature.

Our midfield is critical and effects both attack and defense but Parker now has a reasonable choice of players, Cairney , Reed, Onamah, Lemina, Anguissa, Johansen and McDonald. We should not fail to find three from that bunch to form a good engine room.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: fulhamben on September 15, 2020, 11:03:29 AM
Quote from: absenteeism on September 15, 2020, 10:02:32 AM
Reed was not good on Saturday. Not good.
it would be quicker to say who was good than who wasn't from Saturdays game, such was arsenals dominance in every position. Let's see what reed can do with our upgrades when they finally play. Personally think reed will look better with anguissa carrying more of the work load than josh did on Saturday. 
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: fulhamben on September 15, 2020, 11:06:20 AM
Quote from: filham on September 15, 2020, 11:03:16 AM
Can't believe anyone is being critical of Reed after one match, since the Wembley final we have all been crying out for TK to get his signature.

Our midfield is critical and effects both attack and defense but Parker now has a reasonable choice of players, Cairney , Reed, Onamah, Lemina, Anguissa, Johansen and McDonald. We should not fail to find three from that bunch to form a good engine room.
i believe it is possible to be critical of a performance from anyone game, for example I don't think reed did have a great game, as did many others, but he will still be one of my first choice picks for the Leeds game.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Andy S on September 15, 2020, 11:27:22 AM
Absolutely criticism is one thing and it will take time to adjust to moving up a level for all players. So let's see what happens. Scotty parker can be a support to the players here
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: 3-lions on September 15, 2020, 11:42:07 AM
Parker can be a support to the players? i suggest he is under pressure himself . The reality is we were only playing the 7th or 8th best team in the league and lost 3 nil at home. Look and watch other games and see Leeds and Brighton just to name two that are our relegation rivals play alot better against better teams and not only score but create other chances. DUNK for example. Did Fulham create anything like that open?
Parker must decide and make correct decisions about the players he picks and tactics for Wed/sat games or the Doomslayers will have to come out in force.

051 take not.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Matt10 on September 15, 2020, 01:41:21 PM
If you look at it from an actual build up perspective, as in our defense getting beat due to high quality, it was the 3rd goal that showcased that. The loss was highly preventable, we just made terrible mistakes where it mattered the most. First goal, Ream a bit lazy in his attempt to clear. 2nd goal, naive positioning on the corner, and Hector's beat - while Rodak couldn't find the ball (difficult still). 3rd goal, Hector for some odd reason is all the way to the left side halfway line following Hector around - and completely over-commits; exposes Odoi and Ream on the opposite side. Gunners all out with 6 players in our box. Quality finish from Aubameyang.

Reed and TC actually helped us maintain control where it mattered. They built up our attacks and kept calm in transition. Arsenal were quality in their crisp passing and bypassing our midfield at times, but we were able to track back and build numbers defensively well. Only a couple times where Reed looked exposed where a direct pass should've been intercepted, but can't fault him too much as he had already chased the likes of Willian and Elneny.

The issue we had was a toothless attack. We had 5 total shots - that's never going to work. Our conversion rate last year wasn't great with higher amount of shots, so it's naive to think that we're going to get results hoping for more precision. We need to focus on what is missing - and that is high quality wingers who can find the back of the net. Everyone hated Schurrle, but he could find the back of the net. More of the scoring, less of his defensive traits though.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: FFC In Oz on September 15, 2020, 01:44:24 PM
I actually thought Reed was one of our better starters against Arsenal.  I acknowledge he's very limited in regards to what he brings when we are in possession, but I can't remember any glaring errors or turnovers.

Cairney on the other hand was shown to be not up to PL standard 2 seasons ago.  He likes to slow the tempo down when he gets the ball, and try and pick the right option.  You just don't get the same amount of time on the ball in the PL as you do in the Championship.  His lack of a right foot and inability to get stuck in and win a challenge can be costly also.  These concerns are masked slightly when he plays in a more advanced number 10 role, but he shouldn't be playing next to Reed/Zambo
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Jim© on September 15, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Whitestone on September 15, 2020, 04:05:12 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

Sums it up for me. Both are decent Championship players. Remain to be convinced that they can step up and perform every week in the Prem.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Gloria Hunter on September 15, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
Quote from: Jim© on September 15, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.
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Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Jim© on September 15, 2020, 04:51:58 PM
Quote from: Gloria Hunter on September 15, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
Quote from: Jim© on September 15, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.
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In a positive way. So, when we're holding onto our leads as we were 20 odd times last season and under the cosh, he can hold onto the ball and waste some valuable minutes, it worked many many times last season and no reason to think he's not a good outlet that couldn't do the same this.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Matt10 on September 15, 2020, 04:58:30 PM
They are playing the Parker system, high percentage passes and many passes. It's not surprise that Reed and TC led the team in both percentages and number of passes. They don't lose the ball and keep possession for us. If people don't understand their roles, and appreciate them, after almost a year's worth of Parkerball - then I'm not sure what else you'll need to be convinced of our play style. Once the ball goes into the box though, we need at least 3 players near it - and that just didn't happen at all vs Arsenal. Hopefully Ipswich and Leeds matches will be different.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: bill taylors apprentice on September 15, 2020, 05:13:47 PM
They are playing the Parker system, high percentage passes and many passes. It's not surprise that Reed and TC led the team in both percentages and number of passes. They don't lose the ball and keep possession for us. If people don't understand their roles, and appreciate them, after almost a year's worth of Parkerball - then I'm not sure what else you'll need to be convinced of our play style. Once the ball goes into the box though, we need at least 3 players near it - and that just didn't happen at all vs Arsenal. Hopefully Ipswich and Leeds matches will be different.


[/quote]

I agree.
Far to early to be having OP's like this.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: @jolslover on September 15, 2020, 05:49:24 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

Agree 100%.

Reed was our best player post lockdown - no doubt. But a good run of form in the Champ (When most of our players were performing below expectations) led to many treating his signing like we had just signed messi. Facts are he has never had a run in the premier league and several Southampton managers deemed him not good enough to be part of their squad and I worry their is probably reason for that.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: FFC1987 on September 15, 2020, 05:59:10 PM
Quote from: @jolslover on September 15, 2020, 05:49:24 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

Agree 100%.

Reed was our best player post lockdown - no doubt. But a good run of form in the Champ (When most of our players were performing below expectations) led to many treating his signing like we had just signed messi. Facts are he has never had a run in the premier league and several Southampton managers deemed him not good enough to be part of their squad and I worry their is probably reason for that.

Think thats a bit harsh re Saints managers deeming him not good enough. He's 25 and saints very rarely play youth in the middle particularly when the pecking order had Lemina, Hojberg, Ward-Prowse and Romeu.

I think he would of been offered a competitive squad place for them this year but wanted to come to us after last year which is fair enough. I agree with the sentiments about questioning the step up for him. We'll see. Hes capable I believe but still developing.
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Statto on September 15, 2020, 08:03:44 PM
Quote from: Jim© on September 15, 2020, 02:28:48 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2020, 01:31:14 PM
Reed is overrated on here IMO, due to a particularly good run of form post-lockdown.

People forget that up to the lockdown, he was decent but nothing special, and that was in the Championship.

I personally don't think he's PL quality. Perhaps we could get away with him alongside two better CMs, and certainly he's a competent squad player, but we can't rely on him to be one of the better players.

IMO one of the issues with both Reed and Cairney is they're one-dimensional. Reed can tackle (although even in that regard he's somewhat hindered by his small stature) but his creativity, ball control etc aren't great. Cairney is creative and skillful but can't tackle. At this level there are CMs that have everything - big, strong in the tackle, skillful and creative.

I'd say  TC is one of the least one dimensional players that we've had for a long time. He can pass, he can slow the game down, he can hold onto the ball under pressure and increasingly he can tackle and win headers. He can't go in goal which knocks a dimension off, but he's not very one-dimensional at all. There's not very many CMs that you mention around though- Viera types.

Think you've missed the point really. Yes he can vary the pace of the game when we're in possession, but any decent creative midfielder can do that. My point is, he's nigh on useless when we're not in possession. In contrast, Onomah, not a world-beater, but still better than Cairney when we haven't got possession, and better than Reed in possession, therefore a better all-rounder, without even being a great player. In even better players like Anguissa, Lemina, and the guy Luis we've been linked with et al, you've got guys that can actually tackle hard, but also have the skill to get out of a tight spot and play a defence-splitting through ball. 
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: TC's Sporran on September 16, 2020, 05:10:56 PM
that is cairneys biggest weakness the fact when out of possession all he does is half heartedly close down the pass and not close down the player. although he got stuck in v arse a couple of times and recieved a yellow card. also saw an ariel challenge?

i thought the arsenal game was the best ive seen him play for a while. the most hes faced forward for a long time

we had lots of possession and looked good and at times dangerous.
arsenal maybe had taken their foot off the throttle?

i agree he needs to step up to the plate if he wants to cut it at prem level

but to write him off after a game against one of the current top sides is a bit harsh
Title: Re: Loyalty to Reed and TC costing us?
Post by: Matt10 on September 16, 2020, 05:26:35 PM
Quote from: TC's Sporran on September 16, 2020, 05:10:56 PM
that is cairneys biggest weakness the fact when out of possession all he does is half heartedly close down the pass and not close down the player. although he got stuck in v arse a couple of times and recieved a yellow card. also saw an ariel challenge?

i thought the arsenal game was the best ive seen him play for a while. the most hes faced forward for a long time

we had lots of possession and looked good and at times dangerous.
arsenal maybe had taken their foot off the throttle?

i agree he needs to step up to the plate if he wants to cut it at prem level

but to write him off after a game against one of the current top sides is a bit harsh

Honestly, I think most just misunderstand his role, and don't consider what he has in front of him to pass to. There are a lot of generalizations of what Cairney isn't, because context is too difficult to come up with. Some are stuck in the past thinking we're playing the same systems as before, and don't seem to hold enough weight to how much a certain system can have on a player. Cairney fits perfectly for Parker's possession based system, but still people expect that Cairney can regain this status of creative playmaker with zero forward, and varied, runs being made off the ball when he's practically playing a CDM role. Contextually speaking, when he was placed back as a CAM, right behind the striker, a bit of his creativity was evident in pinging balls over the top for our wingers and fullbacks. I think it was interesting in the last 30 minutes to see him stick and twist with Anguissa though. I'm looking forward to seeing what will be done about our central midfield positions in general.