Friends of Fulham

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: jayffc on July 27, 2021, 10:33:31 AM

Title: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 27, 2021, 10:33:31 AM
https://worldmobile.io/blog/post/fulham-fc-partnership/?s=09

Fulham partner with blockchain company World Mobile ( a huge part of Cardanos project)

I remember the crypto naysayers in here a while back, wonder if they've looked into it any more since then

Regardless. As a cardano holder and fulham fan I'm chuffed to bits with this. World Mobile are doing some wonderful work in Africa at the moment.

Crypto is coming ya'll.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on July 27, 2021, 01:59:44 PM
Crypto is coming. To replace notes and coins. But it will still be crypto pounds and crypto dollars. Bitcoin etc most certainly ain't coming. Tanked since our discussion on here, and the world has been further alerted to climate change and the need to cut carbon emissions, which with Bitcoin and the other decentralised crypto currencies just ain't compatible. My only hope is that poor blingo wasn't too exposed.

Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Craven Mad on July 27, 2021, 02:15:57 PM
I don't object to crypto in principle but I have huge concerns about the environmental impact of them...
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Woolly Mammoth on July 27, 2021, 02:48:44 PM
I remember when you could buy a horse and cart for two sheep and a goat.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: 70sPimlico on July 27, 2021, 03:05:23 PM
Quote from: Craven Mad on July 27, 2021, 02:15:57 PM
I don't object to crypto in principle but I have huge concerns about the environmental impact of them...
I've been very committed to IOTA for many years. It's a great project. I think the last report said the energy for 1 x BTC transaction was the same as 5.6 million IOTA transactions and it was far better than MasterCard & visa etc. Check out the IOTA foundation if you are that way inclined
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: H4usuallysitting on July 27, 2021, 06:57:11 PM
I'd like to see someone try & pay a fare like that in my cab....crypto.... I'll give you *#@&+#@* crypto
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: General on July 27, 2021, 09:22:32 PM
I'll bite. I invested relatively small sums but still a decent amount in crypto this year from January and since then have seen it double. It went down again, but since January I've been in profit during the whole period apart from for about 1 and a half to 2 weeks max.

The environmental impacts and questions aren't negligible but in many ways they are as a lot is being done to address those concerns and bitcoin is one of thousands of crypto, some of which are useless and have no purpose, but some of which have far better environmental footprints and much much smaller considering what they're trying to implement.

Crypto is here to stay and will, alongside cartography, block chain, defi change how this world works.

You can also pay for things now with crypto. I've seen people pay for things with it and use crypto atms to convert into fiat. Now I know the naysayers will say "ahh yes but they're still using fiat".. you're missing the point. This is the beginning of a process (in relative terms). Its a matter of time before other mainstream crypto start being used in a similar manner to fiat.

For what its worth, whilst I appreciate everyone has an opinion on crypto there seem to be a lot of speculative opinions on here not really formed by much.

Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on July 27, 2021, 09:37:30 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 27, 2021, 01:59:44 PM
Crypto is coming. To replace notes and coins. But it will still be crypto pounds and crypto dollars. Bitcoin etc most certainly ain't coming. Tanked since our discussion on here, and the world has been further alerted to climate change and the need to cut carbon emissions, which with Bitcoin and the other decentralised crypto currencies just ain't compatible. My only hope is that poor blingo wasn't too exposed.


Blingo is miles in front Mr Statto. Bought eth at £86 and bitcoin from 6600 to 30000 dollars. I recouped my investment long ago and am sitting on a lot of both running on free money. I hold eight different crypto on much smaller scales. Five are down about 40pc but it's sweet money. Taken a 10k punt on xrp either reaching settlement or beating the sec. Blingo is not as silly as he is on here.

Bc will hit 100k and eth 10k
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: SP on July 27, 2021, 09:42:19 PM
The Bitcoin machine that was in the entrance of the Whitgift Centre Croydon has gone, I wonder if they sold many?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on July 27, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
The crypto atms are being installed at a rate of 53 per day in the USA. Crypto is here to stay whether you believe in it or not. A lot of companies will go to the wall, just like in the dot com boom. Look at crypto like Google was in its infancy. However do NOT invest money you can't afford to lose, and yes it is VERY volatile.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: General on July 27, 2021, 10:21:51 PM
Quote from: SP on July 27, 2021, 09:42:19 PM
The Bitcoin machine that was in the entrance of the Whitgift Centre Croydon has gone, I wonder if they sold many?

https://coinatmradar.com/city/92/bitcoin-atm-london-uk/
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on July 27, 2021, 11:47:00 PM
Quote from: blingo on July 27, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
The crypto atms are being installed at a rate of 53 per day in the USA.

Lol, being installed by Crypto companies so mugs like you can turn your cash into bitcoin then pay them commission to trade it with each other on their platform. Comparing it to the dotcom bubble is a bit of a stretch - there were actually some proper businesses in some of those companies. Nothing of any substance underlying Bitcoin - it's essentially a ponzi scheme.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Willham on July 27, 2021, 11:51:45 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 27, 2021, 11:47:00 PM
Quote from: blingo on July 27, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
The crypto atms are being installed at a rate of 53 per day in the USA.

Lol, being installed by Crypto companies so mugs like you can turn your cash into bitcoin then pay them commission to trade it with each other on their platform. Comparing it to the dotcom bubble is a bit of a stretch - there were actually some proper businesses in some of those companies. Nothing of any substance underlying Bitcoin - it's essentially a ponzi scheme.


Nothing of substance yet it's a currency? A national currency of el Salvador and when you pay tax on everything you ever buy doesnt that make pound sterling and every other form of currency a gonzo scheme too then?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on July 27, 2021, 11:54:32 PM
Quote from: Willham on July 27, 2021, 11:51:45 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 27, 2021, 11:47:00 PM
Quote from: blingo on July 27, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
The crypto atms are being installed at a rate of 53 per day in the USA.

Lol, being installed by Crypto companies so mugs like you can turn your cash into bitcoin then pay them commission to trade it with each other on their platform. Comparing it to the dotcom bubble is a bit of a stretch - there were actually some proper businesses in some of those companies. Nothing of any substance underlying Bitcoin - it's essentially a ponzi scheme.


Nothing of substance yet it's a currency? A national currency of el Salvador and when you pay tax on everything you ever buy doesnt that make pound sterling and every other form of currency a gonzo scheme too then?

It might if they weren't backed by the state
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on July 28, 2021, 09:37:34 AM
Quote from: Statto on July 27, 2021, 11:47:00 PM
Quote from: blingo on July 27, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
The crypto atms are being installed at a rate of 53 per day in the USA.

Lol, being installed by Crypto companies so mugs like you can turn your cash into bitcoin then pay them commission to trade it with each other on their platform. Comparing it to the dotcom bubble is a bit of a stretch - there were actually some proper businesses in some of those companies. Nothing of any substance underlying Bitcoin - it's essentially a ponzi scheme.

You can be a sceptic Mr S and of course it's your choice, but if we all thought that way we would still be at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Have you really studied what crypto can do now and the massive future it has?
It is exactly like the dot com boom, there are some crypto companies doing sterling work creating the future of money, but, exactly like the dot com boom, there are thousands of new companies jumping on the bandwagon that will pop. I take it you are in banking?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: cmg on July 28, 2021, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: blingo on July 28, 2021, 09:37:34 AM
.....there are some crypto companies doing sterling work creating the future of money,

Luvvit!

I actually had a blockchain myself the other day. Fortunately I was able to get hold of a plumber who fixed it before it became too fungible.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on July 28, 2021, 10:25:28 AM
Quote from: cmg on July 28, 2021, 10:20:30 AM
Quote from: blingo on July 28, 2021, 09:37:34 AM
.....there are some crypto companies doing sterling work creating the future of money,

Luvvit!


.


I actually had a blockchain myself the other day. Fortunately I was able to get hold of a plumber who fixed it before it became too fungible.


:dft012: :dft012: :dft012: :dft012: :54: :54:
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Ged on July 28, 2021, 11:48:05 AM
Quote from: jayffc on July 27, 2021, 10:33:31 AM
https://worldmobile.io/blog/post/fulham-fc-partnership/?s=09

Fulham partner with blockchain company World Mobile ( a huge part of Cardanos project)

I remember the crypto naysayers in here a while back, wonder if they've looked into it any more since then

Regardless. As a cardano holder and fulham fan I'm chuffed to bits with this. World Mobile are doing some wonderful work in Africa at the moment.

Crypto is coming ya'll.
Im into crypto and especially Cardano so over the moon with this news . Why keep your money in a Bank when The national average interest rate for savings accounts is 0.06 percent with inflation running at 2.5% so your loosing over 2.4% of your money every year. Cardano is up 841% on this day last year
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 02:23:34 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 27, 2021, 01:59:44 PM
Crypto is coming. To replace notes and coins. But it will still be crypto pounds and crypto dollars. Bitcoin etc most certainly ain't coming. Tanked since our discussion on here, and the world has been further alerted to climate change and the need to cut carbon emissions, which with Bitcoin and the other decentralised crypto currencies just ain't compatible. My only hope is that poor blingo wasn't too exposed.



Sadly Statto I think you are in for a rude awakening when you look into the adoption.

Digital currencies will not replace crypto. They serve different purposes and I would advise perhaps your lack of research on this is showing.

If you know anything about crypto you know it fluctuates thats no suprise...its dipped like this before...and it returns to all time highs time and time again over the last 10years...at the moment we are very early still but mainstream adoption is already on the doorstep. Major banks are setting up crypto exchanges as we speak, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan all bought in already and setting up ETF's... etc etc

Dont concern yourself with short term price action,zoom out and see the trajectory of crypto...Since we spoke...5million students were signed up in Ethiopia to use the Cardano blockchain tech (atala prism) which is a digital identity database... the EU also in talks with them regarding digital covid passports etc other deals already well under way in various other african countries and others outside of Africa following suite...also since we spoke the first country has adopted bitcoin as legal currency and other Latin america countries are also following their lead.

Businesses are already looking to become tokenised, facebook has announced its intention to become a "metaverse" company rather than just a social platform

Sorry bud but theres alot to catch up on.
I suggest a deep dive to understand all that's going on fully....the things you are saying regarding it being economical are the standard tropes that have been debunked a million times... there is a world of crypto beyond bitcoin that is 1000x times more economical and that said...the amount of energy burned by the current banking system and all that goes into running it is actuall way worse.

There is tons of info out there on this.if youd like some places to start I'd be happy to send some easy accessible references
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 02:31:24 PM
Quote from: blingo on July 28, 2021, 09:37:34 AM
Quote from: Statto on July 27, 2021, 11:47:00 PM
Quote from: blingo on July 27, 2021, 10:03:36 PM
The crypto atms are being installed at a rate of 53 per day in the USA.

Lol, being installed by Crypto companies so mugs like you can turn your cash into bitcoin then pay them commission to trade it with each other on their platform. Comparing it to the dotcom bubble is a bit of a stretch - there were actually some proper businesses in some of those companies. Nothing of any substance underlying Bitcoin - it's essentially a ponzi scheme.

You can be a sceptic Mr S and of course it's your choice, but if we all thought that way we would still be at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Have you really studied what crypto can do now and the massive future it has?
It is exactly like the dot com boom, there are some crypto companies doing sterling work creating the future of money, but, exactly like the dot com boom, there are thousands of new companies jumping on the bandwagon that will pop. I take it you are in banking?

The fact that your knowledge of crypto goes as far as bitcoin is a ponzi...shows there is ALOT to learn.

Btc is an agreed store of value in the same way that people one day went...oi mate this bit of rock is worth 2 o them cows ok and people went...f off what a load of balls....years later...Gold became the store of value. (Yes I know its digital,just numbers and tech blah but this is the way of the world now!)

As I say cryptos have evolved and there is a whole world of uses cases beyond a store of value.

Start with watching the Cardano Africa special on youtube perhaps...might be a good realisation that real world inplimention is here...the 5mil students onboarded to the network is a trial run essential...if it goes smoothly there are already plans to roll their blockchain tech out into various other sectors.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Craven Mad on July 28, 2021, 02:41:26 PM
Jay, you should take a look at the 'per transaction' environmental impact of bitcoin vs banking, which allows for a level comparison of the two options. Here's a good link: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/

In broad terms, for me the issue is one of mining and 'proof of stake' cryptos seem to avoid this issue...
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Cambridge Pete on July 28, 2021, 02:51:50 PM
Can we pay in Crypto currency for new players. As a senior I am still very dubious. As for the shirts like the away one
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: cmg on July 28, 2021, 02:54:26 PM
As someone who has never had any significant amount of money or is ever likely to (Any I might get I tend to spend on stuff) I consider myself a disengaged and entirely ignorant spectator of this business.
There are a coupe of things that amuse me: Is the fact that El Salvador has adopted it as a currency meant to be a confidence booster?
                                                              : Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan have got involved! What could possibly go wrong?

"I'm here for one reason and one reason alone. I'm here to guess what the music might do a week, a month, a year from now. That's it. Nothing more. And standing here tonight, I'm afraid that I don't hear - a - thing. Just... silence."
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 02:58:04 PM
Ah I see we're back to 'your opinions this because you haven't researched it bro'. World economists are are logger heads still with Crypto. Experts on both sides just don't seem to agree so clearly there's a fairly decent argument for it riding to the moon, or being a passing phase, or being around but not really becoming the next revolution, but that type of argument always falls flat. For what its worth, I think it's going to be a solid part of our future but for every 'watch this on youtube', there's a 'but watch this youtube'. It's really not a foregone conclusion like some are making out.

As for people who are in, just ask ol Elon to tweet about it and watch it rocket.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on July 28, 2021, 03:07:49 PM
@jayffc, thanks for the patronising post.

I'm not an expert in crypto but I work in finance so have a decent level of knowledge and the general feel I get from most posts on here, including yours, is that with all due respect the technical understanding of these issues is if anything weaker than mine. Not least because I see different issues like decentralised currencies, blockchain and e-money conflated as if the benefits of one apply to another.

Blockchain and some of the other underlying tech has value and no doubt the world is moving away from coins and notes. But as for decentralised crypto currencies such as Bitcoin, it's generally accepted among regulators and anyone intelligent who isn't working in crypto that it's at best just pure gambling, at worst, a scam. By all means put your money in it if you fancy a punt, and you might make an 841% profit like the poster above has done, just like you might win millions if you buy a lottery ticket, but equally you might lose half or all your money like plenty of investors on Bitcoin will have done in the last few months.

The concept of a decentralised currency has lots of problems and substantially zero benefits. Nothing in your post represents a compelling argument to the contrary. Crypto currency investments are invariably justified with waffle about how many people are using it (which proves it's a popular fad, but not that it enhances the way we pay for things) or with conspiracy theories about it being out of reach of state monetary policy controls such as interest rate changes and quantitative easing - things which are in reality designed to ensure you don't wake up one morning and find a loaf of bread costs half your annual salary, like it might if you were paid in Bitcoin.

It will never replace fiat - and you can guarantee anyone who tells you otherwise is either another mug or on the take. 

Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 06:54:38 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 28, 2021, 03:07:49 PM
@jayffc, thanks for the patronising post.

I'm not an expert in crypto but I work in finance so have a decent level of knowledge and the general feel I get from most posts on here, including yours, is that with all due respect the technical understanding of these issues is if anything weaker than mine. Not least because I see different issues like decentralised currencies, blockchain and e-money conflated as if the benefits of one apply to another.

Blockchain and some of the other underlying tech has value and no doubt the world is moving away from coins and notes. But as for decentralised crypto currencies such as Bitcoin, it's generally accepted among regulators and anyone intelligent who isn't working in crypto that it's at best just pure gambling, at worst, a scam. By all means put your money in it if you fancy a punt, and you might make an 841% profit like the poster above has done, just like you might win millions if you buy a lottery ticket, but equally you might lose half or all your money like plenty of investors on Bitcoin will have done in the last few months.

The concept of a decentralised currency has lots of problems and substantially zero benefits. Nothing in your post represents a compelling argument to the contrary. Crypto currency investments are invariably justified with waffle about how many people are using it (which proves it's a popular fad, but not that it enhances the way we pay for things) or with conspiracy theories about it being out of reach of state monetary policy controls such as interest rate changes and quantitative easing - things which are in reality designed to ensure you don't wake up one morning and find a loaf of bread costs half your annual salary, like it might if you were paid in Bitcoin.

It will never replace fiat - and you can guarantee anyone who tells you otherwise is either another mug or on the take. 



Speak in a patronising tone and be responded to in kind.

You speak like someone absolutely entrenched in legacy md centralised finance to the point they cant imagine a world beyond it. Absolutely echoes of the dot com naysayers. I see plenty of merit for decentralised finance especially given the issues weve had with centralised finance the last few decades too numerous to go over on a fulham board.

Well disagree on this, but I can assure you, given I'm surrounded by Devs (friends) with a greater understanding on the intricacies of the tech than both of us. I'm taken by their knowledge and arguments regarding the tech and use cases over yours. You still think it's all a ponzi...crack on....my post was as I stated just scratching the surface not an intricate dissection as wed be here all night...was happy to point to more detailed articles/videos etc but forget it as ever you are stubborn in your conviction.

The only people who lost money were those who sold. The rest are watching as , predictably,and historically,Bitcoin makes yet another recovery.

I'm actually really not a bitcoin fan personally but you spoke in terms if crypto currency as though bitcoin was all there is to it...as I say there is a world of utility worth investing in under the umbrella of "crypto currency".

Fwiw I'm very much in the camp of not caring for bitcoin but I appreciate it laid the foundation for more advanced and efficient tech + projects with greater utility.. .My focus is elsewhere but frankly I'm more than happy for you to stick to what ya know and not look into it.
I'm confident in the conviction that the projects I'm personally invested in within the umbrella of 'crypto' have plenty value and real world utility and will be around for a long time to come....

I wasnt the one lumping all of them together with bitcoin.
Anyway

You do you as ever
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 06:57:04 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 02:58:04 PM
Ah I see we're back to 'your opinions this because you haven't researched it bro'. World economists are are logger heads still with Crypto. Experts on both sides just don't seem to agree so clearly there's a fairly decent argument for it riding to the moon, or being a passing phase, or being around but not really becoming the next revolution, but that type of argument always falls flat. For what its worth, I think it's going to be a solid part of our future but for every 'watch this on youtube', there's a 'but watch this youtube'. It's really not a foregone conclusion like some are making out.

As for people who are in, just ask ol Elon to tweet about it and watch it rocket.

The last thing I want is Elon tweeting about anything I'm invested in!
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on July 28, 2021, 06:59:19 PM
I'm happy to be a mug with the amounts I'm making Mr Statto. However, reading your last post it would appear that you need a lot more knowledge than you currently have on crypto before slating it. It will never fully replace fiat, but neither will it be subject to governments controlling money in the way they do now with QE and interest rates as and how they see fit. I had you down as a lot brighter person. I'm guessing all the institutons investing in bc eth etc are also fall under the category of 'MUGS'  in your view?


As a point of interest, this is who I get my info from.

Technical Specialist, DLT Team at Gibraltar Financial Services Commission
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 07:07:41 PM
Quote from: Craven Mad on July 28, 2021, 02:41:26 PM
Jay, you should take a look at the 'per transaction' environmental impact of bitcoin vs banking, which allows for a level comparison of the two options. Here's a good link: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/

In broad terms, for me the issue is one of mining and 'proof of stake' cryptos seem to avoid this issue...

As an investor in cardano I can assure you I'm all for the positives of Proof of stake consensus 

That said I enjoy what Ergo are doing with Nipipows ...new approach to proof of work,but infinitely less power consumption and doesnt require huge mining farms to be profitable
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on July 28, 2021, 07:21:34 PM
Quote from: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 06:54:38 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 28, 2021, 03:07:49 PM
@jayffc, thanks for the patronising post.

I'm not an expert in crypto but I work in finance so have a decent level of knowledge and the general feel I get from most posts on here, including yours, is that with all due respect the technical understanding of these issues is if anything weaker than mine. Not least because I see different issues like decentralised currencies, blockchain and e-money conflated as if the benefits of one apply to another.

Blockchain and some of the other underlying tech has value and no doubt the world is moving away from coins and notes. But as for decentralised crypto currencies such as Bitcoin, it's generally accepted among regulators and anyone intelligent who isn't working in crypto that it's at best just pure gambling, at worst, a scam. By all means put your money in it if you fancy a punt, and you might make an 841% profit like the poster above has done, just like you might win millions if you buy a lottery ticket, but equally you might lose half or all your money like plenty of investors on Bitcoin will have done in the last few months.

The concept of a decentralised currency has lots of problems and substantially zero benefits. Nothing in your post represents a compelling argument to the contrary. Crypto currency investments are invariably justified with waffle about how many people are using it (which proves it's a popular fad, but not that it enhances the way we pay for things) or with conspiracy theories about it being out of reach of state monetary policy controls such as interest rate changes and quantitative easing - things which are in reality designed to ensure you don't wake up one morning and find a loaf of bread costs half your annual salary, like it might if you were paid in Bitcoin.

It will never replace fiat - and you can guarantee anyone who tells you otherwise is either another mug or on the take. 



Speak in a patronising tone and be responded to in kind.

You speak like someone absolutely entrenched in legacy md centralised finance to the point they cant imagine a world beyond it. Absolutely echoes of the dot com naysayers. I see plenty of merit for decentralised finance especially given the issues weve had with centralised finance the last few decades too numerous to go over on a fulham board.

Well disagree on this, but I can assure you, given I'm surrounded by Devs (friends) with a greater understanding on the intricacies of the tech than both of us. I'm taken by their knowledge and arguments regarding the tech and use cases over yours. You still think it's all a ponzi...crack on....my post was as I stated just scratching the surface not an intricate dissection as wed be here all night...was happy to point to more detailed articles/videos etc but forget it as ever you are stubborn in your conviction.

The only people who lost money were those who sold. The rest are watching as , predictably,and historically,Bitcoin makes yet another recovery.

I'm actually really not a bitcoin fan personally but you spoke in terms if crypto currency as though bitcoin was all there is to it...as I say there is a world of utility worth investing in under the umbrella of "crypto currency".

Fwiw I'm very much in the camp of not caring for bitcoin but I appreciate it laid the foundation for more advanced and efficient tech + projects with greater utility.. .My focus is elsewhere but frankly I'm more than happy for you to stick to what ya know and not look into it.
I'm confident in the conviction that the projects I'm personally invested in within the umbrella of 'crypto' have plenty value and real world utility and will be around for a long time to come....

I wasnt the one lumping all of them together with bitcoin.
Anyway

You do you as ever

So again the distinction between the concepts of decentralised currency and blockchain/tech has gone completely over your head with a long but largely irrelevant rant about your "dev" mates' views on the latter. Name one advantage of the former over fiat currencies - go on, try. Actually articulate it in simple terms...
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 08:12:58 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 28, 2021, 07:21:34 PM
Quote from: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 06:54:38 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 28, 2021, 03:07:49 PM
@jayffc, thanks for the patronising post.

I'm not an expert in crypto but I work in finance so have a decent level of knowledge and the general feel I get from most posts on here, including yours, is that with all due respect the technical understanding of these issues is if anything weaker than mine. Not least because I see different issues like decentralised currencies, blockchain and e-money conflated as if the benefits of one apply to another.

Blockchain and some of the other underlying tech has value and no doubt the world is moving away from coins and notes. But as for decentralised crypto currencies such as Bitcoin, it's generally accepted among regulators and anyone intelligent who isn't working in crypto that it's at best just pure gambling, at worst, a scam. By all means put your money in it if you fancy a punt, and you might make an 841% profit like the poster above has done, just like you might win millions if you buy a lottery ticket, but equally you might lose half or all your money like plenty of investors on Bitcoin will have done in the last few months.

The concept of a decentralised currency has lots of problems and substantially zero benefits. Nothing in your post represents a compelling argument to the contrary. Crypto currency investments are invariably justified with waffle about how many people are using it (which proves it's a popular fad, but not that it enhances the way we pay for things) or with conspiracy theories about it being out of reach of state monetary policy controls such as interest rate changes and quantitative easing - things which are in reality designed to ensure you don't wake up one morning and find a loaf of bread costs half your annual salary, like it might if you were paid in Bitcoin.

It will never replace fiat - and you can guarantee anyone who tells you otherwise is either another mug or on the take. 



Speak in a patronising tone and be responded to in kind.

You speak like someone absolutely entrenched in legacy md centralised finance to the point they cant imagine a world beyond it. Absolutely echoes of the dot com naysayers. I see plenty of merit for decentralised finance especially given the issues weve had with centralised finance the last few decades too numerous to go over on a fulham board.

Well disagree on this, but I can assure you, given I'm surrounded by Devs (friends) with a greater understanding on the intricacies of the tech than both of us. I'm taken by their knowledge and arguments regarding the tech and use cases over yours. You still think it's all a ponzi...crack on....my post was as I stated just scratching the surface not an intricate dissection as wed be here all night...was happy to point to more detailed articles/videos etc but forget it as ever you are stubborn in your conviction.

The only people who lost money were those who sold. The rest are watching as , predictably,and historically,Bitcoin makes yet another recovery.

I'm actually really not a bitcoin fan personally but you spoke in terms if crypto currency as though bitcoin was all there is to it...as I say there is a world of utility worth investing in under the umbrella of "crypto currency".

Fwiw I'm very much in the camp of not caring for bitcoin but I appreciate it laid the foundation for more advanced and efficient tech + projects with greater utility.. .My focus is elsewhere but frankly I'm more than happy for you to stick to what ya know and not look into it.
I'm confident in the conviction that the projects I'm personally invested in within the umbrella of 'crypto' have plenty value and real world utility and will be around for a long time to come....

I wasnt the one lumping all of them together with bitcoin.
Anyway

You do you as ever

So again the distinction between the concepts of decentralised currency and blockchain/tech has gone completely over your head with a long but largely irrelevant rant about your "dev" mates' views on the latter. Name one advantage of the former over fiat currencies - go on, try. Actually articulate it in simple terms...

In my original post I used the term crypto as an overarching umbrella term ...no one mentioned bitcoin specifically until you did. As stated crypto is just a multi faceted broad term but saying crypto doesnt have to mean any particular project. Many platfirms will fail,many wont, just as with traditional business


So if the distinction is going over anyones head it isnt mine.

In answer to your question there are alot too extensive to spend time I dont have explaining each intricacy

That said...if we really must talk in non nuanced cliff notes

- decreased risk of manipulation from corrupt centralised entities controlling all assets and personal data....

In relation to cardano specifically this is a problem particualry prevalent and amplified in a number of african nations which is their initial main focus.

Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 08:19:36 PM
Should add

You've asked for a simple answer
That's one but it's not a simple topic...which is why I was saying it may he worth deep diving the literature on it. It's not a cop out, it's just not a simple one sentence answer
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Way to give up any credibility you had in this area Jay  :doh:
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Way to give up any credibility you had in this area Jay  :doh:

You don't believe  that with defi there is,in theory a decreased risk of manipulation from a centralised entity,or something else in the post?

Alright man, no worries, as I say , I dont gotta convince you guys, you disagree then no worries,no skin off my back.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Way to give up any credibility you had in this area Jay  :doh:

You don't believe  that with defi there is,in theory a decreased risk of manipulation from a centralised entity,or something else in the post?

Alright man, no worries, as I say , I dont gotta convince you guys, you disagree then no worries,no skin off my back.

I mean, I gave my position earlier, in support of it. But you just copped out massively on the debate.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 11:09:33 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: jayffc on July 28, 2021, 10:34:19 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on July 28, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Way to give up any credibility you had in this area Jay  :doh:

You don't believe  that with defi there is,in theory a decreased risk of manipulation from a centralised entity,or something else in the post?

Alright man, no worries, as I say , I dont gotta convince you guys, you disagree then no worries,no skin off my back.

I mean, I gave my position earlier, in support of it. But you just copped out massively on the debate.

He asked for 1 simple answer and I gave one above.

Reality is it is an extensive topic and I do have a life and job outside of spending all day writing up what could be an extensive multi page thread on the merits of defi and specific defi projects (not all are the same) on a Fulham message board. ...when surely it would take less time for everyone involved to just link to some info that may be useful for people to do their own research and reach whatever conclusions they reach from there. It matters little wether someone I dont know believes I comprehend the topics at hand or not. So I'm not particularly concerned about my knowledge of defi/crypto being questioned here. As I say I'm secure enough in my convictions there that I dont need it confirmed by random people on the internet that dont know me. If someone acertains that I dont know what I'm talking about from this convo...cool, no drama.

It's not a cop out I answered the question-explain one benefit in simple words.....I gave one...then I followed it up saying...that's a simple answer as requested, but reality is it's an extensive conversation probably better suited to other mediums given the shape of my week right now!I

I dont have the extended time it deserves today to walk someone through each step of the merits of defi, especially given there are plenty of extensive articles, videos , breakdowns of this topic available with a quick google search...its possible to look up arguments for or against and form an opinion from there. indeed that's what I had to do at the start and its why I'd originally offered, to pass on some links that may or may not be useful. Sure I can spend my day reiterating in my own words each point and why I personally agree or disagree ...but why do so when there are plenty of well written articles and pieces on this readily available.

But nay bother...if individuals want to rubbish it without taking the time to really extensively research it beyond their own immediate circle of info then all good.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Simply91 on July 28, 2021, 11:22:35 PM
Will be interesting to see, the impact on retail banks, if central banks do end up rolling out their own digital currencies, so everyday people can use it for everyday purposes.

There was a good article in the economist a few months ago on this looking at the pros and cons - one point which was quite interesting was around the general lack of innovation in the banking / finance industry, with the last successful innovative idea executed being the cash point! Hence a new idea is overdue and maybe crypto currency controlled/ issued  by the central gov is that.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on July 28, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
I think there may be a long term future for government regulated digital currencies, but not for the existing generation of cryptocurrencies as a mechanism for buying and selling goods and services.  Tt is noteworthy that cryptocurrencies still don't have any intrinsic value - their worth is still measured and expressed in fiat currency terms (i.e. "I have got x bitcoins which are worth y pounds", never "I have got x pounds which are worth y bitcoins").  As things stand, cryptocurrencies are tradeable assets, measured in terms of their fiat currency value; they have not become replacements for money as intended.

I fear for a world in which cryptocurrencies become the dominant force behind economic activity.  I think that they would badly damage the lives of billions of people, unless taken over as digital currencies and regulated by government. It would take an essay or even a book to set out all the reasons, but I'll summarise just three, the first two as mentioned by Tim Harford, a respected economist, statistician and thinker:

(1) Your bank can send a replacement internet banking login if you forget yours or lose it. Lose the passcode to your Bitcoin wallet, and you can kiss all your money goodbye. (A problem for inheritance too if someone dies without passing on their passcode)

(2) Banks and other intermediaries who hold/control fiat currencies can also resolve disputes. How best to do that with blockchain "smart contracts" is most kindly described as an evolving conversation.

(3) Cryptocurrency safety - there is none. Fiat currency is guaranteed by government. If you hold money in a bank, there is a high degree of protection against you losing money from criminal activity or the bank going bust; but cryptocurrency isn't backed by anything. Wallets are insecure , and if you get hacked, you don't have a way to get your money back. It's gone. I find that frightening.

Digital currencies will only become accepted once those fundamental problems have been addressed, and I can't see anything other than governments taking on this role.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Simply91 on July 28, 2021, 11:47:03 PM
Quote from: Plodder on July 28, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
I think there may be a long term future for government regulated digital currencies, but not for the existing generation of cryptocurrencies as a mechanism for buying and selling goods and services.  Tt is noteworthy that cryptocurrencies still don't have any intrinsic value - their worth is still measured and expressed in fiat currency terms (i.e. "I have got x bitcoins which are worth y pounds", never "I have got x pounds which are worth y bitcoins").  As things stand, cryptocurrencies are tradeable assets, measured in terms of their fiat currency value; they have not become replacements for money as intended.

I fear for a world in which cryptocurrencies become the dominant force behind economic activity.  I think that they would badly damage the lives of billions of people, unless taken over as digital currencies and regulated by government. It would take an essay or even a book to set out all the reasons, but I'll summarise just three, the first two as mentioned by Tim Harford, a respected economist, statistician and thinker:

(1) Your bank can send a replacement internet banking login if you forget yours or lose it. Lose the passcode to your Bitcoin wallet, and you can kiss all your money goodbye. (A problem for inheritance too if someone dies without passing on their passcode)

(2) Banks and other intermediaries who hold/control fiat currencies can also resolve disputes. How best to do that with blockchain "smart contracts" is most kindly described as an evolving conversation.

(3) Cryptocurrency safety - there is none. Fiat currency is guaranteed by government. If you hold money in a bank, there is a high degree of protection against you losing money from criminal activity or the bank going bust; but cryptocurrency isn't backed by anything. Wallets are insecure , and if you get hacked, you don't have a way to get your money back. It's gone. I find that frightening.

Digital currencies will only become accepted once those fundamental problems have been addressed, and I can't see anything other than governments taking on this role.

Good points.

Would you also add the environmental issue - e.g. needing to find a more efficient way of mining and trading digital which doesn't take up so much energy. My very basic understanding is that, the calculations become more complex, the more you mine coin, which requires more and more electricity to run the servers.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: MikeTheCubed on July 29, 2021, 12:07:38 AM
I believe the real agenda behind CBDC is for there to be 'programmable' money, which for example would allow:


Potential for extreme tyranny if such a technology were to be abused.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 29, 2021, 12:25:24 AM
Quote from: Plodder on July 28, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
I think there may be a long term future for government regulated digital currencies, but not for the existing generation of cryptocurrencies as a mechanism for buying and selling goods and services.  Tt is noteworthy that cryptocurrencies still don't have any intrinsic value - their worth is still measured and expressed in fiat currency terms (i.e. "I have got x bitcoins which are worth y pounds", never "I have got x pounds which are worth y bitcoins").  As things stand, cryptocurrencies are tradeable assets, measured in terms of their fiat currency value; they have not become replacements for money as intended.

I fear for a world in which cryptocurrencies become the dominant force behind economic activity.  I think that they would badly damage the lives of billions of people, unless taken over as digital currencies and regulated by government. It would take an essay or even a book to set out all the reasons, but I'll summarise just three, the first two as mentioned by Tim Harford, a respected economist, statistician and thinker:

(1) Your bank can send a replacement internet banking login if you forget yours or lose it. Lose the passcode to your Bitcoin wallet, and you can kiss all your money goodbye. (A problem for inheritance too if someone dies without passing on their passcode)

(2) Banks and other intermediaries who hold/control fiat currencies can also resolve disputes. How best to do that with blockchain "smart contracts" is most kindly described as an evolving conversation.

(3) Cryptocurrency safety - there is none. Fiat currency is guaranteed by government. If you hold money in a bank, there is a high degree of protection against you losing money from criminal activity or the bank going bust; but cryptocurrency isn't backed by anything. Wallets are insecure , and if you get hacked, you don't have a way to get your money back. It's gone. I find that frightening.

Digital currencies will only become accepted once those fundamental problems have been addressed, and I can't see anything other than governments taking on this role.


All valid points

Atm, a this stage sadly the answer would likely be some sort of KYC custodians (centralised exchanges like coinbase/binance being the likely candidates)

For what its worth in order for crypto to be accepted into the mainstream it seems to be taken as a given by many in that community that there will inevitably be some degree of regulation around the basics(for a start I think the first thing to go will be privacy tokens) but that it will still be a far step away from the systems we currently have in place. As they stand they will need to adapt to some degree around some basic regulation- Something Cardano lead dev charles hoskinson has spoken about at length.

As for the inheritance point
there is work being done to solve this issue like ideas to develop multi-signature wallets. call them trusts or treasuries. if one person dies out of 3, then the other 2 can release the funds....

We are still very early in the process mind you, this is all still being formed, its coming but what it will look like in 5-10 -20 years is well up for debate and solutions to various problems being explored as they arise.

I agree that much of crypto is currently deemed appreciating assets as opposed to currency at this point though I am aware of many people now recieving wages or taking payment in crypto and spending in stable coins and talking in terms or sats rather than fiat etc  but its extremely early days so hard to know how far this will shift with time and more adoption, or whether it is indeed likely we will always needs some point of pegged reference.

as more and more business' become tokenised running on these blockchain it will be intruegeing to see just how extensive the interoperability of it all will be and how much we even notice it happening.

Fascinating to get the head around. Whatever happens it looks set to shift quite some way from the systems we currently have in place imo. But early days.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on July 29, 2021, 12:26:09 AM
Quote from: Simply91 on July 28, 2021, 11:47:03 PM
Quote from: Plodder on July 28, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
I think there may be a long term future for government regulated digital currencies, but not for the existing generation of cryptocurrencies as a mechanism for buying and selling goods and services.  Tt is noteworthy that cryptocurrencies still don't have any intrinsic value - their worth is still measured and expressed in fiat currency terms (i.e. "I have got x bitcoins which are worth y pounds", never "I have got x pounds which are worth y bitcoins").  As things stand, cryptocurrencies are tradeable assets, measured in terms of their fiat currency value; they have not become replacements for money as intended.

I fear for a world in which cryptocurrencies become the dominant force behind economic activity.  I think that they would badly damage the lives of billions of people, unless taken over as digital currencies and regulated by government. It would take an essay or even a book to set out all the reasons, but I'll summarise just three, the first two as mentioned by Tim Harford, a respected economist, statistician and thinker:

(1) Your bank can send a replacement internet banking login if you forget yours or lose it. Lose the passcode to your Bitcoin wallet, and you can kiss all your money goodbye. (A problem for inheritance too if someone dies without passing on their passcode)

(2) Banks and other intermediaries who hold/control fiat currencies can also resolve disputes. How best to do that with blockchain "smart contracts" is most kindly described as an evolving conversation.

(3) Cryptocurrency safety - there is none. Fiat currency is guaranteed by government. If you hold money in a bank, there is a high degree of protection against you losing money from criminal activity or the bank going bust; but cryptocurrency isn't backed by anything. Wallets are insecure , and if you get hacked, you don't have a way to get your money back. It's gone. I find that frightening.

Digital currencies will only become accepted once those fundamental problems have been addressed, and I can't see anything other than governments taking on this role.

Good points.

Would you also add the environmental issue - e.g. needing to find a more efficient way of mining and trading digital which doesn't take up so much energy. My very basic understanding is that, the calculations become more complex, the more you mine coin, which requires more and more electricity to run the servers.

A couple of sensible posts at last. FWIW I do think there's a place for government regulated digital currencies, ie CBDC. But for the avoidance of doubt what that means is digital GBP, EUR or USD, not a new currency.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 29, 2021, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: Simply91 on July 28, 2021, 11:47:03 PM
Quote from: Plodder on July 28, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
I think there may be a long term future for government regulated digital currencies, but not for the existing generation of cryptocurrencies as a mechanism for buying and selling goods and services.  Tt is noteworthy that cryptocurrencies still don't have any intrinsic value - their worth is still measured and expressed in fiat currency terms (i.e. "I have got x bitcoins which are worth y pounds", never "I have got x pounds which are worth y bitcoins").  As things stand, cryptocurrencies are tradeable assets, measured in terms of their fiat currency value; they have not become replacements for money as intended.

I fear for a world in which cryptocurrencies become the dominant force behind economic activity.  I think that they would badly damage the lives of billions of people, unless taken over as digital currencies and regulated by government. It would take an essay or even a book to set out all the reasons, but I'll summarise just three, the first two as mentioned by Tim Harford, a respected economist, statistician and thinker:

(1) Your bank can send a replacement internet banking login if you forget yours or lose it. Lose the passcode to your Bitcoin wallet, and you can kiss all your money goodbye. (A problem for inheritance too if someone dies without passing on their passcode)

(2) Banks and other intermediaries who hold/control fiat currencies can also resolve disputes. How best to do that with blockchain "smart contracts" is most kindly described as an evolving conversation.

(3) Cryptocurrency safety - there is none. Fiat currency is guaranteed by government. If you hold money in a bank, there is a high degree of protection against you losing money from criminal activity or the bank going bust; but cryptocurrency isn't backed by anything. Wallets are insecure , and if you get hacked, you don't have a way to get your money back. It's gone. I find that frightening.

Digital currencies will only become accepted once those fundamental problems have been addressed, and I can't see anything other than governments taking on this role.

Good points.

Would you also add the environmental issue - e.g. needing to find a more efficient way of mining and trading digital which doesn't take up so much energy. My very basic understanding is that, the calculations become more complex, the more you mine coin, which requires more and more electricity to run the servers.

Recommend looking into proof of stake as opposed to proof of work (ala bitcoin) of which cardano is currently the most popular in terms of market cap.
Infinitely more efficient from an environmental perspective than bitcoin  (albeit that there is a massive move to run mining on renewable energy well undereay)... POS though certainly much more energy efficient than the current fiat system
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 29, 2021, 12:34:05 AM
Quote from: Statto on July 29, 2021, 12:26:09 AM
Quote from: Simply91 on July 28, 2021, 11:47:03 PM
Quote from: Plodder on July 28, 2021, 11:26:01 PM
I think there may be a long term future for government regulated digital currencies, but not for the existing generation of cryptocurrencies as a mechanism for buying and selling goods and services.  Tt is noteworthy that cryptocurrencies still don't have any intrinsic value - their worth is still measured and expressed in fiat currency terms (i.e. "I have got x bitcoins which are worth y pounds", never "I have got x pounds which are worth y bitcoins").  As things stand, cryptocurrencies are tradeable assets, measured in terms of their fiat currency value; they have not become replacements for money as intended.

I fear for a world in which cryptocurrencies become the dominant force behind economic activity.  I think that they would badly damage the lives of billions of people, unless taken over as digital currencies and regulated by government. It would take an essay or even a book to set out all the reasons, but I'll summarise just three, the first two as mentioned by Tim Harford, a respected economist, statistician and thinker:

(1) Your bank can send a replacement internet banking login if you forget yours or lose it. Lose the passcode to your Bitcoin wallet, and you can kiss all your money goodbye. (A problem for inheritance too if someone dies without passing on their passcode)

(2) Banks and other intermediaries who hold/control fiat currencies can also resolve disputes. How best to do that with blockchain "smart contracts" is most kindly described as an evolving conversation.

(3) Cryptocurrency safety - there is none. Fiat currency is guaranteed by government. If you hold money in a bank, there is a high degree of protection against you losing money from criminal activity or the bank going bust; but cryptocurrency isn't backed by anything. Wallets are insecure , and if you get hacked, you don't have a way to get your money back. It's gone. I find that frightening.

Digital currencies will only become accepted once those fundamental problems have been addressed, and I can't see anything other than governments taking on this role.

Good points.

Would you also add the environmental issue - e.g. needing to find a more efficient way of mining and trading digital which doesn't take up so much energy. My very basic understanding is that, the calculations become more complex, the more you mine coin, which requires more and more electricity to run the servers.

A couple of sensible posts at last. FWIW I do think there's a place for government regulated digital currencies, ie CBDC. But for the avoidance of doubt what that means is digital GBP, EUR or USD, not a new currency.

i.e. Posts that confirm your bias.

This is an evolving space...issues will arise ,workarounds or answers continue to be worked on (just as with the multi signature wallets and other proposals arising) some degree of regulation does appear likely...CBDC does not seem to be the only likely survivors from what I'm seeing

But each to their own
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on July 29, 2021, 12:50:23 AM
As for point 2:

Dispute resolution - This can be done in nearly any method you like, but the most basic is through on-chain escrow. or the multisig requires both parties to finalize the trade -for things that are already agreed on and submitted to the chain? no you can't go back. but you can start another transaction and offer remedy that way. this would rely on social pressures or some sort of on chain governance. complicated, but doable.

Also in regards to crypto security:

Cold wallets/ledgers for the majority of holdings (where I keep my holdings) damn near impossible to hack
The rest that could be deemed "more vulnerable" than that but that is never my main holdings...is behind various layers of 2fa and passwords.

That said , yes, the current only insurance as far as I'm aware does come from the central exchanges (binance for one)


Useful starting resource for anyone interested https://youtu.be/5auv_xrvoJk?t=470

This guy has since gone on to now be the head if the SEC
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on July 30, 2021, 12:59:30 AM
Another interesting discussion point is how cryptocurrencies, which are either finite or very limited in supply, cope with what we currently call economic growth (e.g. increasing numbers of people producing more and doing more).  One of the arguments in favour of cryptocurrencies is that decentralisation stops governments "manipulating" economies via quantitative easing and other methods of increasing the money supply, and finite currencies prevent inflation and its associated dangers.  Yet it is the very ability to increase the money supply to reflect increased activity which enables societies to function in a relatively orderly and stable manner.  Suppose our currency consisted of a finite 60 million coins, and the average annual wage is 1 coin. An increase in population, jobs and economic activity could only be paid for by the built in deflation in finite currencies, which is extremely unstabilising and difficult to deal with. So cryptocurrencies solve the genuine danger in fiat currencies of hyper-inflation, but only by replacing it with the mirror opposite danger of hyper-deflation. Is that any better? I also started to wonder how you would or could measure GDP - or indeed if there would be a need to measure GDP.

All quite intriguing as a theoretical exercise, and well above my ability to understand, but I hope it remains theoretical.  I don't want to have to cope with the major overhaul of society's financial structure which would be required, when it seems to me that the risks to billions of people far outweigh the benefits.  It will be interesting to see how the El Salvador experiment goes - unless it is all pie in the sky - but I would not want to be part of it.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Craven Mad on July 30, 2021, 06:47:08 AM
Why would it be harder to calculate GDP? If anything, it seems easier.

Deflationary economies come with all sorts of issues, so I can't see how any fixed money supply system can work at all.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Zoppa77 on August 01, 2021, 01:43:39 AM
Crypto, Bitcoin, CBDC
I'll admit all above my pay packet. Best to seek advice from the professionals.
My biggest concern is with the statement:
"I don't gotta convince you guys"
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 01, 2021, 11:00:51 PM
Mornington Crescent  - I more or less gave up on I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue after Humphrey Lyttleton died.  I think they should have stopped it then.

I am a little younger (late fifties), but I don't think my generation needs to worry excessively about digital currencies or cryptocurrencies. These will not have much of an impact on the average person's everyday life or financial affairs for a good many years yet, although in the longer term, adoption of them could involve substantial changes to the detriment (in my opinion) of societies and individuals around the world. At the moment, they are not replacement currencies, they are speculative investments which the average person would do well to steer clear of (again, in my opinion).

If you think the discussion above is obscure, try this account of of how one (allegedly not untypical) trader had made his money:

"I began by buying and selling Crypto¬Kitties, which are virtual cats traded in Ethereum, then moved to CryptoPunks before finally trading NBA Top Shot," he said. The value of these assets has soared this year; a bundle of nine CryptoPunks, small pixel-art portraits, sold for $16.9m (£12m) earlier this month. The record for an NBA Top Shot, a video of a basketball shot, is $387,000.

I could not have made it up if I had tried – but someone did make it up and now it is for real. It's the Emperor's New Clothes, but some credulous people are enticed into this world by promises of getting rich quick, so as usual, many foolish investors lose money just to create undeserving millionaires. It is even weirder than things like the 17th century tulip mania.  Who decides to trade "virtual cats in Ethereum"?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 02, 2021, 06:53:26 AM
Take it you're not a fan Mr Plodder lol.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?

Peabody, in a nutshell, this is a currency or currencies that, unlike the pound note or coin you have in your pocket, exist solely in electronic form.
An analogy would be a letter compared to an email, one physical and the other virtual, but both viable.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on August 02, 2021, 12:52:21 PM
Quote from: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?

Peabody, in a nutshell, this is a currency or currencies that, unlike the pound note or coin you have in your pocket, exist solely in electronic form.
An analogy would be a letter compared to an email, one physical and the other virtual, but both viable.

I would suggest that is one half of it. The anodyne half on which we can probably all agree.

The controversial half is much of this chat relates to currencies which, unlike British Pound or US Dollar, isn't issued, backed or controlled by a state or any other body.

It just so happens that those decentralised currencies also happen to be electronic.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Peabody on August 02, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?

Peabody, in a nutshell, this is a currency or currencies that, unlike the pound note or coin you have in your pocket, exist solely in electronic form.
An analogy would be a letter compared to an email, one physical and the other virtual, but both viable.

Thank you for that. Am I right in thinking that this would not be good for us really old ins?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 02, 2021, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: Peabody on August 02, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?

Peabody, in a nutshell, this is a currency or currencies that, unlike the pound note or coin you have in your pocket, exist solely in electronic form.
An analogy would be a letter compared to an email, one physical and the other virtual, but both viable.

Thank you for that. Am I right in thinking that this would not be good for us really old ins?

Far far from it Mr P, it depends on your investment outlook. some on here will say it's a here today gone tomorrow investment, and others will say it's like getting into the dot com boom. If you do your homework and invest wisely, you can make serious returns, but as some say, it's a very volatile investment and it's easy to lose your money. In contrast I would ask, how many have lost fortunes on the stock markets? As for decentralised currency, yes it is and that will stop the governments controlling the value of your pound dollar or euro, which they now do whenever they want to, or decide that more money should be pumped into the economy, weakening it further and running away from problems, but hey ho, they are only in for four or five years before the next lot gets voted in and so the hamster wheel continues. Bitcoin etc are financial freedom that will allow you to decide what to do with your money without government interference. As for values and investing, stick with the big guns in this like eth and bc and as long as you take a long term view, imho, you will have a cracking investment. I'm invested across the board from various properties in Gib, Spain and UK to stock and crypto. The old adage of never put all your eggs in one basket rings true but if you never diversify you'll never know. Do you think the banks and governments are running scared of crypto? Believe they are, but they will end up having to give ground because it is the future. Something as simple as a bank transfer proves it. 24 hours plus for the bank with exorbitant charges, various crypto companies, seconds and pennies. Where would you say the future lies? Will we ever see the end of (fiat) cash? No but there will be a lot less of it going around. As for the fraudulent side, the US dollar is still the No1 choice for crooks. There's a lot to look into before investing MrP but find the right crypto companies and there are excellent returns to be made. IMHO Bitcoin will hit $100,000 and ETH will hit $10,000. But that is only my opinion.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 02:08:27 PM
Quote from: Peabody on August 02, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?

Peabody, in a nutshell, this is a currency or currencies that, unlike the pound note or coin you have in your pocket, exist solely in electronic form.
An analogy would be a letter compared to an email, one physical and the other virtual, but both viable.

Thank you for that. Am I right in thinking that this would not be good for us really old ins?

Mr P,

If you are one of those people that are interested in, and understand, the investment side of life, then it really can be treated as just another commodity, though I would not always suggest in dabbling in actual using the stuff in M&S!   :003:
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 02:09:14 PM
Quote from: blingo on August 02, 2021, 01:46:33 PM
Quote from: Peabody on August 02, 2021, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Logicalman on August 02, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: Peabody on August 01, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
Can someone tell me what the hell you are talking about, or is this another version of Mornington Crescent? Also, should I, as an eighty something be worried?

Peabody, in a nutshell, this is a currency or currencies that, unlike the pound note or coin you have in your pocket, exist solely in electronic form.
An analogy would be a letter compared to an email, one physical and the other virtual, but both viable.

Thank you for that. Am I right in thinking that this would not be good for us really old ins?

Far far from it Mr P, it depends on your investment outlook. some on here will say it's a here today gone tomorrow investment, and others will say it's like getting into the dot com boom. If you do your homework and invest wisely, you can make serious returns, but as some say, it's a very volatile investment and it's easy to lose your money. In contrast I would ask, how many have lost fortunes on the stock markets? As for decentralised currency, yes it is and that will stop the governments controlling the value of your pound dollar or euro, which they now do whenever they want to, or decide that more money should be pumped into the economy, weakening it further and running away from problems, but hey ho, they are only in for four or five years before the next lot gets voted in and so the hamster wheel continues. Bitcoin etc are financial freedom that will allow you to decide what to do with your money without government interference. As for values and investing, stick with the big guns in this like eth and bc and as long as you take a long term view, imho, you will have a cracking investment. I'm invested across the board from various properties in Gib, Spain and UK to stock and crypto. The old adage of never put all your eggs in one basket rings true but if you never diversify you'll never know. Do you think the banks and governments are running scared of crypto? Believe they are, but they will end up having to give ground because it is the future. Something as simple as a bank transfer proves it. 24 hours plus for the bank with exorbitant charges, various crypto companies, seconds and pennies. Where would you say the future lies? Will we ever see the end of (fiat) cash? No but there will be a lot less of it going around. As for the fraudulent side, the US dollar is still the No1 choice for crooks. There's a lot to look into before investing MrP but find the right crypto companies and there are excellent returns to be made. IMHO Bitcoin will hit $100,000 and ETH will hit $10,000. But that is only my opinion.

Well put Mr. B.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on August 02, 2021, 02:31:07 PM
Personally I'd never take investment advice from anyone on a football forum but I'd strongly suggest anyone who's thinking of doing so should in particular avoid taking it from a poster who rants about governments controlling him and thinks a bank transfer still takes 24 hours. Weren't you also an anti-vaxxer IIRC Blingo? Says it all
064.gif
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 02, 2021, 02:48:53 PM
How exactly does it say it all Statto? For someone that works in finance (although you don't say what brach of finance at a guess, I'd say financial advisor), you like to give the impression that you are a lot smarter than you possibly are. I have not given any investment advice, only my opinion. Perhaps you should read the post properly before commenting.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: rogerpbackinMidEastUS on August 02, 2021, 02:52:02 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on July 27, 2021, 02:48:44 PM
I remember when you could buy a horse and cart for two sheep and a goat.

I got paid one sheep and one goat for my daughters hand in marriage 5 years ago.  Times have changed.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 02, 2021, 02:57:28 PM
How much is that in bitcoin Mr Roger? lol
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Peabody on August 02, 2021, 03:17:55 PM
I think I will stay away from it and live out my life with what I have, a loving family and a decent pension
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 02, 2021, 05:37:28 PM
Quote from: Peabody on August 02, 2021, 03:17:55 PM
I think I will stay away from it and live out my life with what I have, a loving family and a decent pension

If you are comfortable with that, then it is the right choice for you Mr P.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Luka on August 02, 2021, 06:12:35 PM
Try not looking at BTC as a currency and view it as a store of value and it makes more sense.
BTC is a digital equivalent to gold.



Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 12, 2021, 10:09:04 AM
Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Jim© on August 12, 2021, 10:27:39 AM
Actually only 25% of fraud losses are recovered (on average).
Almost all money is open to fraud- I'm sure crypto will be similar (though there are arguments that it will in future be much safer).
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: General on August 12, 2021, 10:39:53 AM
Quote from: Plodder on August 12, 2021, 10:09:04 AM
Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.

Firstly, because this has a bias towards it, I think you may find that the money in this instance you referred to was retrieved relatively quickly in the end. As well as this, there has to be an element of self accountability with anything you do investment or technologically related.

Secondly, no money is free from fraud, in fact there are huge scams (cross continent) happening every day with people being scammed out of life savings by faux investment companies that are targeting particularly old people out of their pensions and the rest, past the generic email or phone call you get from someone trying to pretend to be amazon.

I think at one point within the last couple of years before or during the time the new £1 coin came out the government estimated or anti fraud agencies estimated there were around £40million in fake pound coins in circulation at any time in the UK alone.

Also, the fact you get money back from a bank if your account is emptied is A) not 100% or guaranteed  and B) secondly is a proviso of the fact that banks and the majority of assets they sell or have are insured due to being regulated.

There is a huge amount of work being done globally to create a harmonious regulation to ease and acknowledge the growth of cryptocurrencies and with that will come some added security, or the added security you say the space lacks currently.

That being said, as someone who uses both, I currently feel that actually my crypto is more secure if not equally as secure as money in my bank.

There are multiple layers of authentification on both, they're personalised and I have increasing autonomy on how I manage that (e.g. I can freeze bank cards temporarily but immediately through apps).
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on August 12, 2021, 10:43:29 AM
What a load of bullsh1t, as per 90% of this thread.
The point Plodder is making is that if HSBC are robbed, you, the deposit holder, don't lose your savings. Even in the event that the theft ruins the bank, you're protected by the state through the FSCS.
Situation is totally different on crypto platforms where, as the article shows, the customer loses out.
It also sticks a pretty big pin in the idea that the tech makes crypto harder to steal in the first place. Evidently not that hard.

Cannot believe the point has even been made that, "oh but the thieves gave the money back in this case" as if a consumer should take some comfort from that - laughable
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 12, 2021, 11:19:09 AM
The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Luka on August 12, 2021, 11:29:00 AM
This thread started on 27/7 @ 10.30  and anyone that was motivated to buy a Bitcoin at that time paid circa £27300 for it.
There may be some crooks out there that steal your car, your bike or indeed your Bitcoins.
But those that did can take solice in the fact that their bitcoin is now valued at £32800 and if they are are spooked they can sell it within seconds !!

Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on August 12, 2021, 11:39:44 AM
Quote from: blingo on August 12, 2021, 11:19:09 AM
The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

You're actually right for once Blingo, I shouldn't reply. I get this spam on my social media, from the same people who claim to have made millions trading in FX with no experience, no doubt the same people who were peddling time shares in Alicante and penny stocks before that. For some reason I just get sucked in on this forum whereas I ignore it elsewhere.

You're also right that crypto isn't the only scam out there - there are others, like those you and i just mentioned. And on most of them, some people will make money on the upside. All I suggest is people realise these are bubbles with no substance behind them, so they will inevitably burst and those left in at that point will get burned. Meme stocks are another current, similar example.

If you fancy a punt, sure, stick your money in Bitcoin. Or put it all on red at the local casino, or have a flutter on Mitrovic as first goalscorer on Saturday. They're all the same - you might win, you might lose, and probably have a 50:50 chance either way.

If you want to secure some long-term, safer growth, you're not short of options. The major property, debt and equity markets have their dips from time-to-time, but you'll invariably achieve good growth over a >5yr term without much risk. Why? Because underneath the financial product, there's something that's genuinely valuable.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 12, 2021, 11:57:58 AM
Quote from: General on August 12, 2021, 10:39:53 AM

I think you may find that the money in this instance you referred to was retrieved relatively quickly in the end. As well as this, there has to be an element of self accountability with anything you do investment or technologically related.


Sorry, "the money was retrieved relatively quickly" is a very misleading interpretation.  No detective work "retrieved" the money. The hacker decided to give some back (about a third so far). Had he or she not done so, none would have been retrieved. Even in the event of the hacker being caught, if he (I am not going to keep writing "he or she"!)  refuses to divulge the key to his wallet, the money is not going back to its rightful owners, and there is no equivalent to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme to bail out the innocent depositor.

Quote from: General on August 12, 2021, 10:39:53 AM

There has to be an element of self accountability with anything you do investment or technologically related.


But this is not a case of individuals being scammed or victims of fraud; it is a case of their deposits being raided. Those holding cryptocurrencies have no other way of holding their "money".

Quote from: General on August 12, 2021, 10:39:53 AM

Secondly, no money is free from fraud, in fact there are huge scams (cross continent) happening every day with people being scammed out of life savings by faux investment companies that are targeting particularly old people out of their pensions and the rest, past the generic email or phone call you get from someone trying to pretend to be amazon.

I think at one point within the last couple of years before or during the time the new £1 coin came out the government estimated or anti fraud agencies estimated there were around £40million in fake pound coins in circulation at any time in the UK alone.


You are conflating fraud (where people are conned out of their money) with theft of deposits (where the theft is from the institution holding the money).  The two are not the same.  In the first instance, the depositor is aware the money has gone. In the second, the theft of the deposit has nothing to do with the depositor.

Fake notes or coins in circulation are a red herring in terms of this subject. They don't reduce the amount in bank balances, and they have nothign to do with the security of crypto wallets.


Quote from: General on August 12, 2021, 10:39:53 AM

Also, the fact you get money back from a bank if your account is emptied is A) not 100% or guaranteed  and B) secondly is a proviso of the fact that banks and the majority of assets they sell or have are insured due to being regulated.


If a bank is hacked and accounts are emptied, it is guaranteed (in most cases up to 100%, unless we are talking people with huge sums held by one institution) - if necessary, via the Financial Service Compensation Scheme.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 12, 2021, 12:01:16 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 12, 2021, 11:39:44 AM
Quote from: blingo on August 12, 2021, 11:19:09 AM
The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

You're actually right for once Blingo, I shouldn't reply. I get this spam on my social media, from the same people who claim to have made millions trading in FX with no experience, no doubt the same people who were peddling time shares in Alicante and penny stocks before that. For some reason I just get sucked in on this forum whereas I ignore it elsewhere.

You're also right that crypto isn't the only scam out there - there are others, like those you and i just mentioned. And on most of them, some people will make money on the upside. All I suggest is people realise these are bubbles with no substance behind them, so they will inevitably burst and those left in at that point will get burned. Meme stocks are another current, similar example.

If you fancy a punt, sure, stick your money in Bitcoin. Or put it all on red at the local casino, or have a flutter on Mitrovic as first goalscorer on Saturday. They're all the same - you might win, you might lose, and probably have a 50:50 chance either way.

If you want to secure some long-term, safer growth, you're not short of options. The major property, debt and equity markets have their dips from time-to-time, but you'll invariably achieve good growth over a >5yr term without much risk. Why? Because underneath the financial product, there's something that's genuinely valuable.

And Blingo I'm not some antiquated financial adviser FYI. I actually work for a successful fintech that's not been around much longer than Bitcoin (acknowledging that Bitcoin has been around for some time now, and it's only people like you who think it's still groundbreaking). 

A diversified portfolio is always the right way Mr Statto. Crypto will eventually settle down and will also end up being regulated, because there won't be any other option. In the meantime its a case of make hay whilst the sun shines, which I don't see as a bad thing. As always, timing is of the essence and is also the hardest thing to get right as I'm sure you know. Finding the right product is difficult too, most promises on products never produce the figures they say they will and who gets fatter? certainly not the investor. Interest rates are through the floor, bonds are a waste of time, CFD's and Forex are a definite no no unless you really know what you are doing and stocks are hardly setting the world alight. Gold has fallen over $200 an ounce lately whist Bitcoin continues to rise, at the moment. The volatility of crypto is clear and has been discussed to the full, but the bigger the risk the bigger the reward or loss as you know. By the same token we cannot ignore the institutional money that has gone into the likes of BC and ETH, the applications for ETF's and it's just time before they come into effect. Again I would stress to anyone, if you are not sure and have not done your homework, do not under any circumstances invest in any field you are not sure of. I take my hat off to you Sir for answering :54:

ps. It's not a matter of if BC will hit $100k, but when. :dft012: ETH will hit $10k.  Blingo is sitting on some serious gains but will probably sell just before. As Rothschild said, sell 15% before the top and leave some for the next guy. So I'm never greedy and I've never known anyone go skint by taking a profit
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 12, 2021, 12:17:20 PM
Some people decide to make speculative investments, seduced by siren calls from those who are already invested and therefore talk up their asset class because they need fresh investors to get caught up in the frenzy, so that they themselves can sell and realise their huge profits before the top of the market is reached. That's an investment decision for individuals to make, and we can't compensate people if they lose substantial amounts and massively enrich others through being foolish and/or greedy.  However, that's different from all your money (fiat or crypto) vanishing overnight from wherever it is held.

My concern is the conflation of a speculative investment vehicle with real, meaningful currency, and the implications of that.  Unregulated currencies not backed by government and with no compensation scheme in the event of theft, would have drastic consequences for society if adopted widely as a means of exchange, for reasons already discussed at length in this thread.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Somerset Fulham on August 12, 2021, 01:05:22 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 12, 2021, 11:39:44 AM
Quote from: blingo on August 12, 2021, 11:19:09 AM
The financial advisor returns hoping that with derogatory comments his sale of bullsh1t products earning very little will stay alive.
If the thread is, in your words, 90% bullsh1t, why read it, or indeed contribute to it?.
The truth is there is fraud anywhere there is finance in the world of investment, something that crooks will always try to exploit. You don't mention keeping personal portfolios of crypto in a secure personal wallet, which is what most sensible investors do and is much safer, how convenient. Remind me about just how much the banks cover your losses to? Conveniently forgotten to mention that too. How many dodgy IPO's have fleeced investors out of their life savings? How many dot con companies were there? Oh, forgot to mention that too?
You pick and choose how you want to see things.
Tell me how much has crypto gone up since the 27th July, when this thread was started? Oh of course, in your narrow world that doesn't count.
If you choose to believe that crypto is not here to stay, then leave your blinkers on my friend, whilst sensible investors continue see the future. Everybody has a choice to invest in what they want to invest in and from what I can see, you would be one of the last avenues in which I would consider placing any money.
Give us the benefit of your expansive knowledge and tell us where there are currently greater returns to be had. I'll guarantee you come up with a bullsh1t answer to not do so.

You're actually right for once Blingo, I shouldn't reply. I get this spam on my social media, from the same people who claim to have made millions trading in FX with no experience, no doubt the same people who were peddling time shares in Alicante and penny stocks before that. For some reason I just get sucked in on this forum whereas I ignore it elsewhere.

You're also right that crypto isn't the only scam out there - there are others, like those you and i just mentioned. And on most of them, some people will make money on the upside. All I suggest is people realise these are bubbles with no substance behind them, so they will inevitably burst and those left in at that point will get burned. Meme stocks are another current, similar example.

If you fancy a punt, sure, stick your money in Bitcoin. Or put it all on red at the local casino, or have a flutter on Mitrovic as first goalscorer on Saturday. They're all the same - you might win, you might lose, and probably have a 50:50 chance either way.

If you want to secure some long-term, safer growth, you're not short of options. The major property, debt and equity markets have their dips from time-to-time, but you'll invariably achieve good growth over a >5yr term without much risk. Why? Because underneath the financial product, there's something that's genuinely valuable.

This is 100% correct in my view. I'm really quite surprised that more people aren't agreeing with Statto on this one.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Oakeshott on August 12, 2021, 05:36:38 PM
"do not under any circumstances invest in any field you are not sure of"

That seems to me to be the best advice on this thread.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 13, 2021, 10:36:41 AM
Quote from: Plodder on August 12, 2021, 10:09:04 AM
Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.


So no one lost money with the likes of Barlow Clowes Mr P? There are multiple risks in all investments. Banks will never guarantee returns on ANY investment. Unregulated investments alway carry more risk but also the potential of greater returns. It is a case of caveat emptor, and as I have said before, if you're not sure, DO NOT INVEST. To imply that all unregulated investments are a death knell on your money is a little unfair. Is wine a bad investment? not if you work with a reliable company. The problem is the amount of cowboy and rip off firms out there sucking in the vulnerable through their greed. Personally I would never invest in anything that started with a cold call. If it's that good, then why are you calling ME??? Investment is about doing your research and when you think you have it right, go over it all again to make sure, check everything at least twice. You can not in all fairness say that if you had invested in the likes of Bitcoin 5 years ago that you would be in the red. A rocky ride, certainly, but also big profits, had you just bought and held, I'm not the day trading type. I can't agree with all you say as you seem to prefer the super safe level of investment, but I do agree that at least 80-90% of your investments should be safe, the problem nowadays is what do you classify as a safe investment?
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: RaySmith on August 13, 2021, 11:45:02 AM
A reporter or someone who travelled internationally, across borders, in countries where there is conflict, was quoted as saying word to the effect of-

'if I'm stopped by border guards who don't want to let me go through, i could offer them dollars, which may not be immediately useful to them, gold, even more so, but at least they could put these in their pockets, hope they might be useful at some point;
but if took out my phone and  offered them Bitcoins from my personal wallet, to be transferred into their own virtual wallet on their own phone, well, they might not even have a smart phone, and not know what i was talking about.'

Cash is always useful to have with you for emergencies, or at least a valid cc.

Though once i was in France, in Lyons, on a trip to Bob Dylan concert in St Etienne, and the cash machine wouldn't take my card, so i walked into what i thought was the bank, when i saw the Credit Lyonnaise sign, and i woman walked out from the back of the office shouting 'Non non' as i waved my credit card, but i doubt that Bitcoins would have been  much help in this situation.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on August 13, 2021, 12:02:18 PM
Quote from: RaySmith on August 13, 2021, 11:45:02 AM
A reporter or someone who travelled internationally, across borders, in countries where there is conflict, was quoted as saying word to the effect of-

'if I'm stopped by border guards who don't want to let me go through, i could offer them dollars, which may not be immediately useful to them, gold, even more so, but at least they could put these in their pockets, hope they might be useful at some point;
but if took out my phone and  offered them Bitcoins from my personal wallet, to be transferred into their own virtual wallet on their own phone, well, they might not even have a smart phone, and not know what i was talking about.'

Cash is always useful to have with you for emergencies, or at least a valid cc.

Though once i was in France, in Lyons, on a trip to Bob Dylan concert in St Etienne, and the cash machine wouldn't take my card, so i walked into what i thought was the bank, when i saw the Credit Lyonnaise sign, and i woman walked out from the back of the office shouting 'Non non' as i waved my credit card, but i doubt that Bitcoins would have been  much help in this situation.

FWIW World Mobile are literally all about providing an affordable mobile connection to remote parts of the world and banking the unbanked. + you can change your crypto back to fiat if you so wished at any moment. Also - I actually agree that I dont wish to exist in a completely cashless society (which is what privacy coins are in the digital space) but the banks already seem to be wanting to move us away from cash as it is.

There are also always things of value you could carry with you in such a scenario as you mention (jewellery, watches) tangible real objects of course will always still be useful
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 13, 2021, 12:50:01 PM
Fiat money will never cease to exist, that's a fact. However, the movement and store of money is changing and it is highly unlikely that that will not continue both as a means of changing, transferring or using crypto as a money source. Our choices are to go with it or stick with traditional methods. Who would have said in the 70s that mobile phones would exist? Who would have said that we could travel by plane in 1900? Its called progress. Our kids live in the age of technical revolution and we can't stop it, so why not go with it? Google or amazon shares in the early 90s would have been a great investment if we had had the foresight on how things would change. For me personally bc and eth are the same as Google back then. Time will tell if I am right, but I now run on free money as I recouped my initial investment back a while ago.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on August 13, 2021, 01:01:22 PM
Quote from: blingo on August 13, 2021, 12:50:01 PM
Fiat money will never cease to exist, that's a fact. However, the movement and store of money is changing and it is highly unlikely that that will not continue both as a means of changing, transferring or using crypto as a money source. Our choices are to go with it or stick with traditional methods. Who would have said in the 70s that mobile phones would exist? Who would have said that we could travel by plane in 1900? Its called progress. Our kids live in the age of technical revolution and we can't stop it, so why not go with it? Google or amazon shares in the early 90s would have been a great investment if we had had the foresight on how things would change. For me personally bc and eth are the same as Google back then. Time will tell if I am right, but I now run on free money as I recouped my initial investment back a while ago.

"The movement and store of money is changing" - quite right but nothing to do with defi really (you can keep a centralised, fiat currency like GBP and still make it cashless, electronically stored/transferred, underpinned by blockchain etc)
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 13, 2021, 01:04:09 PM
Defi is the way to go IMHO Mr Statto. Governments have full control of your life and cash. Free it up, it makes for a fairer world.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Statto on August 13, 2021, 01:09:26 PM
Yeah you've said that conspiracy theory before Blingo and you know my opinion, which contains expletives so i won't repeat it
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Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on August 13, 2021, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: blingo on August 13, 2021, 12:50:01 PM
Fiat money will never cease to exist, that's a fact. However, the movement and store of money is changing and it is highly unlikely that that will not continue both as a means of changing, transferring or using crypto as a money source. Our choices are to go with it or stick with traditional methods. Who would have said in the 70s that mobile phones would exist? Who would have said that we could travel by plane in 1900? Its called progress. Our kids live in the age of technical revolution and we can't stop it, so why not go with it? Google or amazon shares in the early 90s would have been a great investment if we had had the foresight on how things would change. For me personally bc and eth are the same as Google back then. Time will tell if I am right, but I now run on free money as I recouped my initial investment back a while ago.

This, although personally not from BTC and Eth which I am now out of.

I'm also running on free returns at this point having recouped my initial investment.
Have spent enough time researching this over a number of years to know this isn't going away and there is alot of growth in the market yet. Also feel confident things like cardano are not just empty assets but ecosystems I am invested in with tangible real world use cases, blockchain business' and d'apps, that is where the value comes.

But it is what it is. I'm happy with my returns which have absolutely eclipsed my previous stock/bond/precious metal investments and we have a long way to go yet. The only people I know that lost money were those trying to day trade or who panicked in the latest crash, the ones that trusted in the projects with solid fundamentals are back comfortably in profit.

With Facebook admitting they are working on becoming a "metaverse" company , I would advise people begin to look into that world as an upcoming huge new market. But if its not for you, no worries. If ya prefer to stick with conventional finance and steer clear of crypto world and all the different spaces within it all good... but personally it's working out very well, as it is for many of the people I know invested...I'm choosing to look to the next big things and what the world may look like in 10 years to go along my more stable conventional investments.

As blingo says, it's the same story time and time again with the next wave of technology...first its doubted and ridiculed, then next thing you know its everywhere.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Herbie on August 13, 2021, 01:19:59 PM
That's all well and good that you guys are in a risk free position having recouped your initial investment, but the question it raises in my mind is why you are so keen to extol the virtues of it and create a thread on a Fulham forum that is now 5 pages long. 
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: jayffc on August 13, 2021, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: Herbie on August 13, 2021, 01:19:59 PM
That's all well and good that you guys are in a risk free position having recouped your initial investment, but the question it raises in my mind is why you are so keen to extol the virtues of it and create a thread on a Fulham forum that is now 5 pages long. 

A) I had no intention of it being 5 pages long. We responded to people replying negatively about crypto and wether defi has a future

B) it was Fulham related given our new sponsor is a crypto company (World Mobile) that is a part of the Cardano Ecosystem.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 14, 2021, 12:16:55 AM
I see it more as  a why paint it all black statement. Ive made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion that you should never invest if you are not either au fait or sure of what you are doing in this field, but I also believe that you shouldn't be frightened into closing your eyes into something new if you have done your homework and are going into this fully aware and having done considerable research. It's not wrong, it's different.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 14, 2021, 12:24:07 AM
Quote from: blingo on August 13, 2021, 10:36:41 AM
Quote from: Plodder on August 12, 2021, 10:09:04 AM
Sorry to resurrect this thread, as just about everything on the subject has been said, but I just want to emphasise to amateur speculators the perils of entering this area of investment, by drawing to their attention another real life example over the past couple of days of the absence of any safety net if your money is stolen through no fault of your own. A huge amount of Ether, Binance coin and USDC tokens was stolen (equivalent to $600 million dollars in meaningful money).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58163917

If someone empties your bank account, it is upsetting and causes aggravation and difficulty, but you will get your money back (unless you have been complicit in the crime or very negligent).  If someone empties your crypto wallet, you can in all probability say goodbye to your money.


So no one lost money with the likes of Barlow Clowes Mr P? There are multiple risks in all investments. Banks will never guarantee returns on ANY investment. Unregulated investments alway carry more risk but also the potential of greater returns. It is a case of caveat emptor, and as I have said before, if you're not sure, DO NOT INVEST. To imply that all unregulated investments are a death knell on your money is a little unfair. Is wine a bad investment? not if you work with a reliable company. The problem is the amount of cowboy and rip off firms out there sucking in the vulnerable through their greed. Personally I would never invest in anything that started with a cold call. If it's that good, then why are you calling ME??? Investment is about doing your research and when you think you have it right, go over it all again to make sure, check everything at least twice. You can not in all fairness say that if you had invested in the likes of Bitcoin 5 years ago that you would be in the red. A rocky ride, certainly, but also big profits, had you just bought and held, I'm not the day trading type. I can't agree with all you say as you seem to prefer the super safe level of investment, but I do agree that at least 80-90% of your investments should be safe, the problem nowadays is what do you classify as a safe investment?

You have missed the point. I am talking about the security of cryptocurrencies as a means of holding one's wealth on deposit, not about investment risk, which is a completely different subject. People are advocating moving to cryptocurrencies as a means of buying and selling. In such a world, you have to keep them in a digital wallet and if the latter is emptied or you forget your passcode, you lose all your money.  This does not happen in a world of fiat currencies and bank accounts, backed by compensation schemes.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 14, 2021, 01:22:01 AM
Cryptocurrencies were originally pushed as alternative to fiat currencies. It is notable, though, that values of anything always relate back to fiat currencies - and this includes cryptocurrencies themselves.  No one ever says "my savings of x pounds are worth y bitcoin / Ethereum etc.", but everyone in the UK measures their bitcoins in terms of UK pounds, because sterling has meaning where bitcoin has none.  In the UK, houses are valued in pounds, prices in shops and on websites are in pounds, and for all the sales pitch, there has been scarcely any take up by business of bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency as a valid method of payment.  Apart from vague talk of "freeing us from government control of money" or "liberating us from the effects on our wealth of quantitative easing" or "cutting out the middle man in financial transactions", there would be little or no benefit to unregulated cryptocurrencies not backed by government taking over from fiat currencies, but many serious problems created instead.

Digital currency (rather than unregulated cryptocurrency) is a different matter, but it would have to be regulated and centrally controlled, which is contrary to the purported philosophy behind the invention of cryptocurrencies in the first place.

Thus cryptocurrencies are currently an asset class, not alternative currencies, and the real reason for the continuing sales pitch about cryptocurrencies "being the future" is that those who are already invested in them perpetually need new investors to sustain the fiat value of what is otherwise a completely worthless asset. The value of cryptocurrencies lies in the ability to buy and sell them in fiat currencies at a profit, not in any practical use as a medium of exchange. The latter will only come into being if cryptocurrencies establish themselves as solid stores of value, to the extent that people will be happy to be paid in cryptos, keep current balances in cryptos, and use cryptos for everyday transactions.

Beware the siren voices gushing about the virtues of cryptocurrencies as the future of finance. What they really mean is "I have a vested agenda, because I have got some, so you go and buy some too, boost the value (as measured in fiat), and make me richer".
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 14, 2021, 01:30:25 AM
I haven't missed the point at all Mr P. Truth is that if you don't buy a ticket, you can never win the lottery, however, it goes far deeper than that. You have something in front of you that is certainly volatile, but is in the position of gaining more credibility by the day. Now, no one is advocating or recommending that anyone goes into this without having done their due diligence, but neither should it be dismissed without reading into what it does and where its intentions lie. To simply dismiss something because it is not regulated is ludicrous, to dismiss it because you believe that no one should consider it without researching the product or understanding the potential through technological advancement or institutional investment is frankly an Insult to our fellow members. We should be open to all avenues and research them thoroughly before investing. Everyone should make up their own mind but to suggest that the safety net of property etc is the be all and end all of investment is IMHO frankly ridiculous. I appreciate your safety concerns Mr P, and I applaud them, but if we are all happy to travel from a to b every day of our lives then that is all we will ever achieve, but if we try to get to C, even if we only get half way there, we will have achieved something in life. I wish everyone Welland the above is all IMHO.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 14, 2021, 01:42:58 AM
Quote from: blingo on August 13, 2021, 01:04:09 PM
Defi is the way to go IMHO Mr Statto. Governments have full control of your life and cash. Free it up, it makes for a fairer world.

DeFi will make life "fairer" and "free" in the same way as the Wild West was.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: Plodder on August 14, 2021, 01:48:40 AM
Quote from: blingo on August 14, 2021, 01:30:25 AM
I haven't missed the point at all Mr P. Truth is that if you don't buy a ticket, you can never win the lottery, however, it goes far deeper than that. You have something in front of you that is certainly volatile, but is in the position of gaining more credibility by the day. Now, no one is advocating or recommending that anyone goes into this without having done their due diligence, but neither should it be dismissed without reading into what it does and where its intentions lie. To simply dismiss something because it is not regulated is ludicrous, to dismiss it because you believe that no one should consider it without researching the product or understanding the potential through technological advancement or institutional investment is frankly an Insult to our fellow members. We should be open to all avenues and research them thoroughly before investing. Everyone should make up their own mind but to suggest that the safety net of property etc is the be all and end all of investment is IMHO frankly ridiculous. I appreciate your safety concerns Mr P, and I applaud them, but if we are all happy to travel from a to b every day of our lives then that is all we will ever achieve, but if we try to get to C, even if we only get half way there, we will have achieved something in life. I wish everyone Welland the above is all IMHO.

You are still completely missing the point and discussing something entirely different. You are going on about the security of crypto as an investment relative to other investment opportunities. I am talking about the security of how people store their wealth in a world where cryptocurrencies and decentralised finance have replaced what we have now.  It is not about people deciding whether or not to "go in for it".  I am talking about financial systems of the future, not investment opportunities.
Title: Re: Fulham related - remember that crypto chat in here...
Post by: blingo on August 14, 2021, 09:56:38 AM
Again, I haven't missed the point at all. I''m saying that security will come as crypto gets regulated, and it will. You seem to think that this is ready to implode, yet institutions continue to pour money into this, are they playing cowboys in the wild west too? I explained in previous posts the way to store your crypto safely. It's not that difficult to do. I for one on here don't see crypto as anything but replacing large chunks of the future financial systems. It is the future whether we choose to see it today, tomorrow or in two years time. It will happen because it is now too far down the road and so big that there is no going back. The investment side of it is simply a massive added bonus, and why not take advantage of the situation. Im not a day trader, I buy and hold. I have targets that when met I either cash in or set new targets on. Is that any different to what current so called investors do? The only difference is as you rightly say, a riskier bet, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it will become safer as more institutions and Governments (The Argies) get on board the crypto train. Sometimes in life we have to look at the bigger picture and with the millions, sorry, trillions that crypto is now worth we will have no option but to accept the future of how investment, currencies and finance will work.