I would love English People to have their own national anthem, we are stuck with God save the King/Queen, an anthem not related directly to England. We need an anthem to celebrate England as a country and English pride in our country at sporting events, I think it would really galvanise the supporters just as the Welsh, Irish and Scottish anthems do. I'm not saying do away with the National anthem when it comes to Royal or Union occasions or possibly at events such as the Olympics. Many people do not find the royal family inspirational or worthy of the god like worship they get, saying that I wouldn't want to do their job.
Quote from: Southdowns White on November 26, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
I would love English People to have their own national anthem, we are stuck with God save the King/Queen, an anthem not related directly to England. We need an anthem to celebrate England as a country and English pride in our country at sporting events, I think it would really galvanise the supporters just as the Welsh, Irish and Scottish anthems do. I'm not saying do away with the National anthem when it comes to Royal or Union occasions or possibly at events such as the Olympics. Many people do not find the royal family inspirational or worthy of the god like worship they get, saying that I wouldn't want to do their job.
Agree entirely. Land of Hope and Glory or Jerusalem would be my choices
I would have 'Going Backwards' by Depeche Mode.
Quote from: SG on November 26, 2022, 03:40:49 PM
Quote from: Southdowns White on November 26, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
I would love English People to have their own national anthem, we are stuck with God save the King/Queen, an anthem not related directly to England. We need an anthem to celebrate England as a country and English pride in our country at sporting events, I think it would really galvanise the supporters just as the Welsh, Irish and Scottish anthems do. I'm not saying do away with the National anthem when it comes to Royal or Union occasions or possibly at events such as the Olympics. Many people do not find the royal family inspirational or worthy of the god like worship they get, saying that I wouldn't want to do their job.
Agree entirely. Land of Hope and Glory or Jerusalem would be my choices
Jerusalem for me, something a bit uplifting.
I would happily ditch the Windsor / Saxe-Coburg anthem - unsurprisingly perhaps as I am a republican. But it really is an awful, soulless dirge. I'm an atheist too but I find the hymn Jerusalem altogether inspiring.
The present anthem is a dreary dirge and lauds a deity and monarch above the native land. In these more enlightened times we should have a secular, uplifting anthem yet every time this subject is raised the suggestion more often or not is Jerusalem!
Quote from: alfie on November 26, 2022, 04:16:03 PM
Quote from: SG on November 26, 2022, 03:40:49 PM
Quote from: Southdowns White on November 26, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
I would love English People to have their own national anthem, we are stuck with God save the King/Queen, an anthem not related directly to England. We need an anthem to celebrate England as a country and English pride in our country at sporting events, I think it would really galvanise the supporters just as the Welsh, Irish and Scottish anthems do. I'm not saying do away with the National anthem when it comes to Royal or Union occasions or possibly at events such as the Olympics. Many people do not find the royal family inspirational or worthy of the god like worship they get, saying that I wouldn't want to do their job.
Agree entirely. Land of Hope and Glory or Jerusalem would be my choices
Jerusalem for me, something a bit uplifting.
[/quoteGreat idea Quote from: SG on November 26, 2022, 03:40:49 PM
Quote from: Southdowns White on November 26, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
I would love English People to have their own national anthem, we are stuck with God save the King/Queen, an anthem not related directly to England. We need an anthem to celebrate England as a country and English pride in our country at sporting events, I think it would really galvanise the supporters just as the Welsh, Irish and Scottish anthems do. I'm not saying do away with the National anthem when it comes to Royal or Union occasions or possibly at events such as the Olympics. Many people do not find the royal family inspirational or worthy of the god like worship they get, saying that I wouldn't want to do their job.
Agree entirely. Land of Hope and Glory or Jerusalem would be my choices
Great idea, "I Vow To Thee MY Country", would be my choice.
My Old Mans A Dustman....😄
I agree with I Vow to Thee My Country.
On a technical point Jerusalem is not a hymn I suppose you should call it a song. Although sung in churches you will not find it in any of the established hymn books and we had it at our wedding.
No doubt someone will prove me wrong!
Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on November 26, 2022, 05:08:38 PM
I agree with I Vow to Thee My Country.
On a technical point Jerusalem is not a hymn I suppose you should call it a song. Although sung in churches you will not find it in any of the established hymn books and we had it at our wedding.
No doubt someone will prove me wrong!
What's the difference between a hymn and a song, and who decides what song is a hymm ?
Sugar Sugar by the Archies😆
The anthem should be Eng-Ger-Land, Eng-Ger-Land, Eng-Ger-Land ENG GER LAND :wine:
Quote from: alfie on November 26, 2022, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on November 26, 2022, 05:08:38 PM
I agree with I Vow to Thee My Country.
On a technical point Jerusalem is not a hymn I suppose you should call it a song. Although sung in churches you will not find it in any of the established hymn books and we had it at our wedding.
No doubt someone will prove me wrong!
What's the difference between a hymn and a song, and who decides what song is a hymm ?
Accordin to Wikipedia some clerics believe a hymn must directly address the Big Dude upstairs which Jerusalem does not so not a hymn.
Quote from: Neil D on November 26, 2022, 04:21:54 PM
I would happily ditch the Windsor / Saxe-Coburg anthem - unsurprisingly perhaps as I am a republican. But it really is an awful, soulless dirge. I'm an atheist too but I find the hymn Jerusalem altogether inspiring.
I too am a 'devout' atheist and having just re-read the lyrics to Jerusalem, they are pure speculation, including the fact that Jesus supposedly visited England.
In my opinion, and I'm not decrying peoples' beliefs, I think, but the words are mumbo jumbo.
How could Jerusalem be built on England's 'green and pleasant land' ?
I know this is nothing to do with Fulham, but as far as Jerusalem is concerned, the actual 'tune'
is magnificent, as is Rule Britannia, but of course we don't "Rule the waves anymore"
Another option would be "Land of Hope and Glory" with tweeks
Note my leaning to the Last Night of the Proms.
I'm not too fussed about what our national anthem is per se, though if people made horrendous suggestions I'd be against it.
That being said, one thing I would love is if we followed the route of the south african national anthem which I think is one of the best out there. It encorporates 5 of south Africa's most commonly spoken languages.
Why not have a national anthem that sees everyone speak a bit of Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English. That'd be brilliant in my opinion. Definitely along lines of United Kingdom.
Quote from: rogerpbackinMidEastUS on November 26, 2022, 05:40:54 PM
Quote from: Neil D on November 26, 2022, 04:21:54 PM
I would happily ditch the Windsor / Saxe-Coburg anthem - unsurprisingly perhaps as I am a republican. But it really is an awful, soulless dirge. I'm an atheist too but I find the hymn Jerusalem altogether inspiring.
I too am a 'devout' atheist and having just re-read the lyrics to Jerusalem, they are pure speculation, including the fact that Jesus supposedly visited England.
In my opinion, and I'm not decrying peoples' beliefs, I think, but the words are mumbo jumbo.
How could Jerusalem be built on England's 'green and pleasant land' ?
I know this is nothing to do with Fulham, but as far as Jerusalem is concerned, the actual 'tune'
is magnificent, as is Rule Britannia, but of course we don't "Rule the waves anymore"
Another option would be "Land of Hope and Glory" with tweeks
Note my leaning to the Last Night of the Proms.
I believe the Jerusalem referred to is the concept of a holy and eternal city. Somewhere where everyone is happy and has all they need and there is no suffering or injustice.
Mumbo jumbo in some peoples eyes, something to aspire to in others.
I have always thought Land of Hope and Glory was the English anthem, but as a rule we are very bad at being proud of our Englishness.
The story of Jesus visiting England with his uncle Joseph of Aramathea (I might have spelt that wrong) is almost certainly a myth, but it made medieval Englishmen happy, so why knock it?
Quote from: rogerpbackinMidEastUS on November 26, 2022, 05:40:54 PM
Quote from: Neil D on November 26, 2022, 04:21:54 PM
I would happily ditch the Windsor / Saxe-Coburg anthem - unsurprisingly perhaps as I am a republican. But it really is an awful, soulless dirge. I'm an atheist too but I find the hymn Jerusalem altogether inspiring.
I too am a 'devout' atheist and having just re-read the lyrics to Jerusalem, they are pure speculation, including the fact that Jesus supposedly visited England.
In my opinion, and I'm not decrying peoples' beliefs, I think, but the words are mumbo jumbo.
How could Jerusalem be built on England's 'green and pleasant land' ?
I know this is nothing to do with Fulham, but as far as Jerusalem is concerned, the actual 'tune'
is magnificent, as is Rule Britannia, but of course we don't "Rule the waves anymore"
Another option would be "Land of Hope and Glory" with tweeks
Note my leaning to the Last Night of the Proms.
It was originally a poem by William Blake, written at the start of the 19thC - he was concerned about the effects of the Industrial Revolution -'These dark, Satanic mills,' and harked back to the legend of Jesus visiting England, as you say.
The idea of 'Jerusalem being built in England's green and pleasant land', though literally unlikely, like Jesus visiting the country, does have the optimistic idea of a far better society being created here, a utopia, and is anthemic, and great to sing, I think- a bit like 'Al Fayed take us back, to a place we call home', which envisages the Cottage as a magical , Utopian sort of place by the historic River Thames - which it is, of course!
You don't have to be religious to like the song -I'm not.
As for Land of Hope and Glory, well it does refer to the, long gone, British Empire, and England as 'Mother of the free,' ruling over all its subjects, and has a bombastic tone and tune, and is usually sung at Last night of the Proms.
I far prefer Jerusalem as an anthem, and it is an unofficial anthem, often sung at sporting events, anyway.
Don't they sing Jerusalem at England rugby union internationals and test cricket?
Quote from: Neil D on November 26, 2022, 05:40:20 PM
Quote from: alfie on November 26, 2022, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on November 26, 2022, 05:08:38 PM
I agree with I Vow to Thee My Country.
On a technical point Jerusalem is not a hymn I suppose you should call it a song. Although sung in churches you will not find it in any of the established hymn books and we had it at our wedding.
No doubt someone will prove me wrong!
What's the difference between a hymn and a song, and who decides what song is a hymm ?
Accordin to Wikipedia some clerics believe a hymn must directly address the Big Dude upstairs which Jerusalem does not so not a hymn.
Thank you
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
'Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear: o clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariots of fire!'
Not sure about these lyrics. its a bit like 'Lucy in the sky with diamonds'
Jerusalem was not written in praise of England, it is a criticism of the times and attitudes, funny how things don't change.
God save the king/queen is a uniquely English/British anthem and should remain
Quote from: LC on November 26, 2022, 07:49:12 PM
God save the king/queen is a uniquely English/British anthem and should remain
British and the commonwealth, not an anthem of England exclusively. I would like something that does not refer to god, religion or praise an individual person but is inclusive of all the people who are proud to call England home.
Quote from: Southdowns White on November 26, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
I would love English People to have their own national anthem, we are stuck with God save the King/Queen, an anthem not related directly to England. We need an anthem to celebrate England as a country and English pride in our country at sporting events, I think it would really galvanise the supporters just as the Welsh, Irish and Scottish anthems do. I'm not saying do away with the National anthem when it comes to Royal or Union occasions or possibly at events such as the Olympics. Many people do not find the royal family inspirational or worthy of the god like worship they get, saying that I wouldn't want to do their job.
I totally agree, England should have its own national anthem like everyone else.
God Save the King is a complete uninspiring dirge.
It's about one privileged person, yes one privileged individual living in splendour.
The National Anthem should be about our country England.
My choice would be " I VOW TO THEE MY COUNTRY ".
God save the King is sick bucket stuff that nobody i know wants to sing, and certain not our sports men and women because it does not represent our country, so that is why they are reluctant to sing this garbage, totally uninspiring.
Why should the other three home countries have their own anthems and England does not, because GSTK is for GB and it represents the privileged plummy voiced British, and not the English.
Quote from: gang on November 26, 2022, 07:24:39 PM
Jerusalem was not written in praise of England, it is a criticism of the times and attitudes, funny how things don't change.
That's right, Blake was fiercely anti-establishment, and I don't see how you could ever have that in a national anthem. I think the fact the song (written about a hundred years later) is such a belter means people overlook that
Jerusalem kinda amazed this isn't a given
Agadoo for me....A timeless classic
How about 'Always look on the bright side of life'
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on November 26, 2022, 05:08:25 PM
My Old Mans A Dustman....😄
Then there will be those who want Roll Out The Barrel.
Quote from: Free Elvis Hammond on November 26, 2022, 09:20:07 PM
Quote from: gang on November 26, 2022, 07:24:39 PM
Jerusalem was not written in praise of England, it is a criticism of the times and attitudes, funny how things don't change.
That's right, Blake was fiercely anti-establishment, and I don't see how you could ever have that in a national anthem. I think the fact the song (written about a hundred years later) is such a belter means people overlook that
I've always thought a number with the name of another nation's capital a rather odd choice as a national anthem (although, of course, it wasn't when Blake wrote it). Blake, a genius but something of a weirdo, certainly wrote the poem in dissatisfaction with the current state of the nation.
He actually wrote a rather more powerful criticism, entitled, 'London'.
>https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43673/london-56d222777e969<
Try as I might, and I thought I knew music, I can't think of a suitable patriotic English song. There's a dearth that the other home nations don't have. This must be the reason all along that no alternative has been adopted. Jerusalem - no, obviously. I vow to thee my country all earthly things above - I cannot do that, there's far too much wrong with it. LOHAG - lovely tune but too imperialistic for these times.
Quote from: LC on November 26, 2022, 07:49:12 PM
God save the king/queen is a uniquely and should remain
"I Vow To Thee My Country" fantastic but it's also very much an American patriotic song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS8W2at3TUs
There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me
Perfect for England, and anyone who does not like it can be legitimately chained to Vera Lynn's statue in Dover (once it is erected) and stoned to death as a damned foreigner.
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Quote from: cmg on November 26, 2022, 10:23:17 PM
Quote from: Free Elvis Hammond on November 26, 2022, 09:20:07 PM
Quote from: gang on November 26, 2022, 07:24:39 PM
Jerusalem was not written in praise of England, it is a criticism of the times and attitudes, funny how things don't change.
Jerusalem is not recognised as the capital of another nation by the British government and most of the world.
That's right, Blake was fiercely anti-establishment, and I don't see how you could ever have that in a national anthem. I think the fact the song (written about a hundred years later) is such a belter means people overlook that
I've always thought a number with the name of another nation's capital a rather odd choice as a national anthem (although, of course, it wasn't when Blake wrote it). Blake, a genius but something of a weirdo, certainly wrote the poem in dissatisfaction with the current state of the nation.
He actually wrote a rather more powerful criticism, entitled, 'London'.
>https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43673/london-56d222777e969<
There's a clear distinction between patriotism (Latin patria - native land) and xenophobic nationalism which can tend to spelling with a 'z'.
In trying to work out why other nations (Ireland, Scotland and Wales) have suitable "anthems" and England doesn't, it seems to stem from the others being the junior parts of the Union and/or needing to express their individuality and pride. England has a no less rich musical heritage but the dominant player in the Union did not feel the need (or chose not to) to express such pride, for want of a better word. Ireland and Scotland have many such songs. I can't speak Welsh but I suspect just as many and I saw a translation of Land Of My Fathers the other day and the words are good.
However, after a great deal of thought I have at last found a suitable English anthem. A catchy tune and the words are timeless and equally apposite today:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R9kWdERx7s
Quote from: Fernhurst on November 27, 2022, 02:32:18 AM
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Not a question of sliding to the right, why do Scotland, Wales and NI have their own anthems, simple really, they are not interested in being British. GSTK is fine when we are operating as a team Olympics for instance, but not when we are standing alone.
For myself I am English first, British second, always have been always will be.
Why not 'There'll always be an England' by Vera Lynn? Always thought of it as a great outsider!
Quote from: alfie on November 27, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Fernhurst on November 27, 2022, 02:32:18 AM
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Not a question of sliding to the right, why do Scotland, Wales and NI have their own anthems, simple really, they are not interested in being British. GSTK is fine when we are operating as a team Olympics for instance, but not when we are standing alone.
For myself I am English first, British second, always have been always will be.
Absolutely Correct Alfie.
I am another that objects to GSTK - on the grounds of both taste (it is a dirge) and inappropriateness - for many it is an appeal to something that doesn't exist to protect an institution well past its sale by date. It is an historical anachronism. It's not a song I could ever consider singing.
I also think it is insulting to the Celtic nations that the English anthem is the same as the British one.
Not sure that we need to go too far back in time for a new anthem, Flower of Scotland was written in the 60's. Although it is a stirring tune, it too nationalistic for my tastes - it is a reference back to a time and place that no longer exists - which is why LOHAG wouldn't be appropriate.
Maybe it is time to move away from nationalistic patriotism and simply choose a song that has contemporary relevance - I have been to a half a dozen weddings over the last 2/3 years and the song that was played at all of them and that was sang along to by just about everyone (from teens to sixty somethings) was Wonderwall. Worth considering?
Quote from: alfie on November 27, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Fernhurst on November 27, 2022, 02:32:18 AM
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Not a question of sliding to the right, why do Scotland, Wales and NI have their own anthems, simple really, they are not interested in being British. GSTK is fine when we are operating as a team Olympics for instance, but not when we are standing alone.
For myself I am English first, British second, always have been always will be.
I don't think it's right to suggest that having pride in one's native country, land or region inevitably means a desire for separatism. I grant you that, in recent times, this is more so the case in Scotland in particular - for well-known reasons.
However, there are plenty of healthy countries or unions where regional characteristics, customs etc are celebrated without being seen as a separatist movement. People in regions of France or Germany for example. Indeed, I'd suggest that a healthy amalgamation of such regional variations actually facilitates celebration of individual and regional differences without it being seen as nationalistic. See my point in an earlier post.
I'm Brian & so is my wife
Quote from: Holders on November 27, 2022, 10:44:04 AM
Quote from: alfie on November 27, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Fernhurst on November 27, 2022, 02:32:18 AM
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Not a question of sliding to the right, why do Scotland, Wales and NI have their own anthems, simple really, they are not interested in being British. GSTK is fine when we are operating as a team Olympics for instance, but not when we are standing alone.
For myself I am English first, British second, always have been always will be.
I don't think it's right to suggest that having pride in one's native country, land or region inevitably means a desire for separatism. I grant you that, in recent times, this is more so the case in Scotland in particular - for well-known reasons.
However, there are plenty of healthy countries or unions where regional characteristics, customs etc are celebrated without being seen as a separatist movement. People in regions of France or Germany for example. Indeed, I'd suggest that a healthy amalgamation of such regional variations actually facilitates celebration of individual and regional differences without it being seen as nationalistic. See my point in an earlier post.
Sliding to the right? Could argue it's sliding to the left? It could argued that wanting to remove our current national anthem is an attack on the establishment/monarchy which is more commonly associated with left wing republican views.
I keep saying, you could argue, as this is meant to be a football forum, let's not get into politics, it's happened a few times this year already
Quote from: LC on November 26, 2022, 07:49:12 PM
God save the king/queen is a uniquely English/British anthem and should remain
As others have stated gstk is british not English so should be just used for GB.
It is unacceptable that England have not got our own national anthem like every other country due to the corrupt establishment.
Quote from: scotto2000 on November 27, 2022, 02:36:49 AM
Jerusalem is not recognised as the capital of another nation by the British government and most of the world.
Indeed, the confused, confusing and convoluted views of the nations of the world regarding the status of Jerusalem as capital (or not) of Israel or Palestine (or both) provide, in themselves, ample evidence for not wishing this unfortunate place be established on our 'green and pleasant land'.
I have absolutely no doubt of the corruption in the higher echelons of this land, it is visible every single day.
But I am really struggling to connect why England doesn't have a national anthem with establishment corruption?!
Quote from: cmg on November 27, 2022, 01:13:10 PM
Quote from: scotto2000 on November 27, 2022, 02:36:49 AM
Jerusalem is not recognised as the capital of another nation by the British government and most of the world.
Indeed, the confused, confusing and convoluted views of the nations of the world regarding the status of Jerusalem as capital (or not) of Israel or Palestine (or both) provide, in themselves, ample evidence for not wishing this unfortunate place be established on our 'green and pleasant land'.
Never seen it better put!
Why not do what Australia and Canada did and write a new one.
Quote from: Somerset Fulham on November 27, 2022, 01:13:35 PM
I have absolutely no doubt of the corruption in the higher echelons of this land, it is visible every single day.
But I am really struggling to connect why England doesn't have a national anthem with establishment corruption?!
I guess tradition and history mean nothing anymore.. god save the king/queen has been around since the 1600s. Even if England did get their/our own national anthem the vast majority, including myself, would still continue to sing god save the king/queen.
It literally epitomises what it is to the British and English. It's a case of looking at our history and where we come from.
Also what establishment corruption are you specifically referring too.. really don't want to get into a political/history debate, but this phrase gets thrown around a lot- really curious to learn what the facts are as you see them
Ok folks, I'm not English so maybe im not entitled to comment on this, but before the kick-off with the English game the other night, that very thought crossed my mind, why in the 21st century, England has no anthem of its own?
I understand the views of some on here that England should come up with a totally new song, though I personally love Blakes Jerusalem and feel it would be ideal. 'Land of Hope and Glory', I feel has imperialist connotations and might not get many international admirers.
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on November 27, 2022, 03:40:36 PM
Ok folks, I'm not English so maybe im not entitled to comment on this, but before the kick-off with the English game the other night, that very thought crossed my mind, why in the 21st century, England has no anthem of its own?
I understand the views of some on here that England should come up with a totally new song, though I personally love Blakes Jerusalem and feel it would be ideal. 'Land of Hope and Glory', I feel has imperialist connotations and might not get many international admirers.
Interesting to get your perspective. As you hail from a country which has had a superb and emotive "anthem" arise almost accidently (Fields of Athenry), I struggle to think of a suitable English equivalent. I hear what you say about Jerusalem, it has a catchy and, to many, a stirring tune but for a largely secular and multi-ethnic society it's not suitable for much the same reason as GSTQ/K and LOHAG.
Genuinely interested to hear your suggestions as to an Athenry equivalent.
Quote from: LC on November 27, 2022, 03:30:48 PM
Quote from: Somerset Fulham on November 27, 2022, 01:13:35 PM
I have absolutely no doubt of the corruption in the higher echelons of this land, it is visible every single day.
But I am really struggling to connect why England doesn't have a national anthem with establishment corruption?!
I guess tradition and history mean nothing anymore.. god save the king/queen has been around since the 1600s. Even if England did get their/our own national anthem the vast majority, including myself, would still continue to sing god save the king/queen.
It literally epitomises what it is to the British and English. It's a case of looking at our history and where we come from.
Also what establishment corruption are you specifically referring too.. really don't want to get into a political/history debate, but this phrase gets thrown around a lot- really curious to learn what the facts are as you see them
You only need Google Michelle Mone to see the latest round of it.
Quote from: Holders on November 27, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on November 27, 2022, 03:40:36 PM
Ok folks, I'm not English so maybe im not entitled to comment on this, but before the kick-off with the English game the other night, that very thought crossed my mind, why in the 21st century, England has no anthem of its own?
I understand the views of some on here that England should come up with a totally new song, though I personally love Blakes Jerusalem and feel it would be ideal. 'Land of Hope and Glory', I feel has imperialist connotations and might not get many international admirers.
Interesting to get your perspective. As you hail from a country which has had a superb and emotive "anthem" arise almost accidently (Fields of Athenry), I struggle to think of a suitable English equivalent. I hear what you say about Jerusalem, it has a catchy and, to many, a stirring tune but for a largely secular and multi-ethnic society it's not suitable for much the same reason as GSTQ/K and LOHAG.
Genuinely interested to hear your suggestions as to an Athenry equivalent.
We already have that, Three Lions.
The actual Irish anthem is The Soldier's Song, which is as anachronistic as any other anthem nowadays.
Quote from: Rupert on November 27, 2022, 04:20:20 PM
Quote from: Holders on November 27, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on November 27, 2022, 03:40:36 PM
Ok folks, I'm not English so maybe im not entitled to comment on this, but before the kick-off with the English game the other night, that very thought crossed my mind, why in the 21st century, England has no anthem of its own?
I understand the views of some on here that England should come up with a totally new song, though I personally love Blakes Jerusalem and feel it would be ideal. 'Land of Hope and Glory', I feel has imperialist connotations and might not get many international admirers.
Interesting to get your perspective. As you hail from a country which has had a superb and emotive "anthem" arise almost accidently (Fields of Athenry), I struggle to think of a suitable English equivalent. I hear what you say about Jerusalem, it has a catchy and, to many, a stirring tune but for a largely secular and multi-ethnic society it's not suitable for much the same reason as GSTQ/K and LOHAG.
Genuinely interested to hear your suggestions as to an Athenry equivalent.
We already have that, Three Lions.
The actual Irish anthem is The Soldier's Song, which is as anachronistic as any other anthem nowadays.
I asked because I was hoping to hear his suggestions, coming as he does from a country with such a rich musical tradition, as to an English equivalent which has some roots and might have application beyond football. "Three Lions" would hardly do for Rugby, the Commonwealth Games etc. I've heard the Irish anthem as the only Englishman in the room and, dare I say it, it sounded as dreary as GSTQ/K. No wonder they opted for Athenry.
Quote from: Somerset Fulham on November 27, 2022, 04:18:15 PM
Quote from: LC on November 27, 2022, 03:30:48 PM
Quote from: Somerset Fulham on November 27, 2022, 01:13:35 PM
I have absolutely no doubt of the corruption in the higher echelons of this land, it is visible every single day.
But I am really struggling to connect why England doesn't have a national anthem with establishment corruption?!
I guess tradition and history mean nothing anymore.. god save the king/queen has been around since the 1600s. Even if England did get their/our own national anthem the vast majority, including myself, would still continue to sing god save the king/queen.
It literally epitomises what it is to the British and English. It's a case of looking at our history and where we come from.
Also what establishment corruption are you specifically referring too.. really don't want to get into a political/history debate, but this phrase gets thrown around a lot- really curious to learn what the facts are as you see them
You only need Google Michelle Mone to see the latest round of it.
Tell me, what has this got to do with the royal family, or our national anthem, god save the king/queen?
I was talking about establishment corruption, not the above that you have mentioned. I never did mention any of that.
That said though, we are harbouring a nonce in the Royal Family, so there is that.
Quote from: Somerset Fulham on November 27, 2022, 05:33:56 PM
I was talking about establishment corruption, not the above that you have mentioned. I never did mention any of that.
That said though, we are harbouring a nonce in the Royal Family, so there is that.
Sure, but we were talking about the national anthem- god save the king/queen. So you're saying we should change the anthem because, as you claim, there's corruption in the establishment/house of commons/lords.. but the anthem hasn't anything to do with that. You can't lump everything under the same umbrella. So what is your point because I think I've missed it?
And as for the former Prince, he is just that- Andrew has lost his titles, so I'm not sure what else the royal family is meant to do.
There seems to be a problem with an anthem which has great lyrics or a great tune but rarely both. Sometimes you have an unfortunate confluence of both the opposites such as the UK - rubbish words and tune. The Russian anthem has a great tune (the old Soviet one) but, in translation, some new rather over-blown words. The French (my favourite) and Italian anthems also rousing tunes but the lyrics are very much of their time - maybe a little too martial for contemporary tastes.
Ok Holders. The Fields of Athenry, while a catchy tune I'm not sure would do as a national anthem. Have you listened to the words? its anti-establishment, in fact anti British establishment, about starvation and the famine and how the crown dealt with that period of Irish history. It's mainly sang at Rugby matches rather than soccer, and thats surprising given that some on the Irish Rugby team hail from unionist backgrounds. Celtic supporters also sing it at their matches, as do Liverpool supporter, though I think they use the air to different lyrics.
I expect in the next 10 to 15 years, post border poll/referendum and Irish unity, we are going to have to come up with a totally new anthem that will represent everyone on the whole Island. But of course, none of this addresses the issue of an English anthem.
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on November 27, 2022, 08:17:02 PM
Ok Holders. The Fields of Athenry, while a catchy tune I'm not sure would do as a national anthem. Have you listened to the words? its anti-establishment, in fact anti British establishment, about starvation and the famine and how the crown dealt with that period of Irish history. It's mainly sang at Rugby matches rather than soccer, and thats surprising given that some on the Irish Rugby team hail from unionist backgrounds. Celtic supporters also sing it at their matches, as do Liverpool supporter, though I think they use the air to different lyrics.
I expect in the next 10 to 15 years, post border poll/referendum and Irish unity, we are going to have to come up with a totally new anthem that will represent everyone on the whole Island. But of course, none of this addresses the issue of an English anthem.
Mr Cobh. I know the words well and totally empathise with the sentiment, although not an anthem as such of course. I can understand it being construed as anti-British in Ireland but plenty of people from here were transported as well for stealing their lord's corn. In our case the oppressing lords will mostly have been of Norman descent. Trevelyan sounds Cornish.
You'd better get on with your border poll! I've got £20 riding on it happening within 10 years from you-know-what.
No, I'm still looking for ideas. I guess we'll be stuck with GSTK when the UK breaks up as part of the rationale will have disappeared. .
Sweet Caroline
Holders, you are the second person I heard saying Trevelyan was Cornish. Interesting that. There is a small Island a mile out the Harbour from the town of Cobh, named Spike Island. There were forty thousand convicts left the island for Oz throughout Victoria's reign. it was later described as Irelands Alcatraz.
When Cromwell was earlier on tour in Ireland, hundreds more convicts were sent to Barbados from there - as white slaves. in 1920-21 there was two successful escapes from the island by republican prisoners. British forces left the island for the last time in 1938, under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Treaty.
But here is the interesting part. In 1922, members of a Birmingham regiment stationed on the Island, along with locals from the town of Cobh, including among them local IRA members, all got together and founded a new football club called Cobh Ramblers. This was later the same club where Roy Keane began his career before being snapped up by Notts Forrest. Today, the club still sports the same claret and blue colours as Aston Villa - the direct connection to those Birmingham soldiers, and the original training pitch for the club was called Villa Park. The club was 100 years old this summer gone!
Quote from: Neil D on November 27, 2022, 06:55:40 PM
There seems to be a problem with an anthem which has great lyrics or a great tune but rarely both. Sometimes you have an unfortunate confluence of both the opposites such as the UK - rubbish words and tune. The Russian anthem has a great tune (the old Soviet one) but, in translation, some new rather over-blown words. The French (my favourite) and Italian anthems also rousing tunes but the lyrics are very much of their time - maybe a little too martial for contemporary tastes.
I too, like the rather menacing majesty of the old USSR anthem and the rather jaunty Italian job.
I always liked the old DDR (East Germany) anthem when it was constantly being played at the Olympics when the little DDR kept sticking it to the big boys (I didn't know then that they were all drugged up to the eyeballs).
Anyway, that one is going spare now so perhaps we could nick it. Doesn't matter about the words as the lyrics to Auferstanden Aus Ruinen were subsequently deemed by the friendly, fun-loving Stasi to be suggestive of support for a united Germany so, in a move which underlined what a bonkers regime it was, the citizens of the DDR were banned from singing the words to their own national anthem.
Quote from: Holders on November 27, 2022, 10:44:04 AM
Quote from: alfie on November 27, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Fernhurst on November 27, 2022, 02:32:18 AM
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Not a question of sliding to the right, why do Scotland, Wales and NI have their own anthems, simple really, they are not interested in being British. GSTK is fine when we are operating as a team Olympics for instance, but not when we are standing alone.
For myself I am English first, British second, always have been always will be.
I don't think it's right to suggest that having pride in one's native country, land or region inevitably means a desire for separatism. I grant you that, in recent times, this is more so the case in Scotland in particular - for well-known reasons.
However, there are plenty of healthy countries or unions where regional characteristics, customs etc are celebrated without being seen as a separatist movement. People in regions of France or Germany for example. Indeed, I'd suggest that a healthy amalgamation of such regional variations actually facilitates celebration of individual and regional differences without it being seen as nationalistic. See my point in an earlier post.
I think you make this point very well. I have never taken the existence of anthems for the other parts of the Union as directly implying a nationalistic push for separatism. I think there is a rather English resentment of these anthems, I don't really understand why.
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 10:55:27 PM
Quote from: Holders on November 27, 2022, 10:44:04 AM
Quote from: alfie on November 27, 2022, 09:56:22 AM
Quote from: Fernhurst on November 27, 2022, 02:32:18 AM
Quote from: Twig on November 27, 2022, 12:51:53 AM
I don't understand why so many people want an English anthem. I am proud to be British and happy to have a British anthem. And whilst there are valid arguments for replacing or updating the existing one, good luck with convincing the electorate! Personally I find this obsession with "Englishness" all a tiny bit small minded but I accept that's perhaps just me.
Quite agree, worried how this board is slididing to the right.
Will always be British, Nationalism is awful, look at The SNP
Not a question of sliding to the right, why do Scotland, Wales and NI have their own anthems, simple really, they are not interested in being British. GSTK is fine when we are operating as a team Olympics for instance, but not when we are standing alone.
For myself I am English first, British second, always have been always will be.
I don't think it's right to suggest that having pride in one's native country, land or region inevitably means a desire for separatism. I grant you that, in recent times, this is more so the case in Scotland in particular - for well-known reasons.
However, there are plenty of healthy countries or unions where regional characteristics, customs etc are celebrated without being seen as a separatist movement. People in regions of France or Germany for example. Indeed, I'd suggest that a healthy amalgamation of such regional variations actually facilitates celebration of individual and regional differences without it being seen as nationalistic. See my point in an earlier post.
I think you make this point very well. I have never taken the existence of anthems for the other parts of the Union as directly implying a nationalistic push for separatism. I think there is a rather English resentment of these anthems, I don't really understand why.
You may be right, Mr.Twig. I don't resent it myself for one instant but I am somewhat envious that we have no worthy equivalent and (above) I put that down to the structure of the UK as a union.
I have a long-standing interest in regional customs, festivals etc and have observed them flourishing across (if I may use the word) Europe because people felt free to celebrate them as they did not threaten the overall relationship.
Visits to France, Germany and Eastern Europe illustrate this. In former years I'd have added Scotland but the situation has undoubtedly changed.
That's fascinating, Mr Cobh. Trevelyan is certainly a Cornish name but now I think of it, he wasn't the lord himself but the Crown agent in charge of a grain store. But my point was that it wasn't just the Irish who suffered such gross injustice at the hands of non-native tyrants but English as well. They were mainly shipped from West Country ports and probably Liverpool. Cromwell was an abomination.
I can't remember the name but there's an island off west Cork that was used as a slave staging post by the vikings before that. History sadly so often repeats itself.The island reached by the cable car that takes one cow or two people!
Afterthought: it was Dursey Island.
NFR but I have a personal, if distant connection. One of my ancestral families were mariners from North Devon recorded as crewing ships that carried (as well as contraband and legit cargo) convicts destined for America. The shipowner found it cheaper to just dump them on Lundy Island just offshore where he used them as slave labour. This profiteering rogue was High Sheriff of Devon and an MP.
Plus ca change.
Quote from: ffcthereligion on November 27, 2022, 10:14:21 AM
Why not 'There'll always be an England' by Vera Lynn? Always thought of it as a great outsider!
I would prefer Hyacinth Bucket`s rendition of "There`ll Always Be an England".
Given the governments you keep electing it ought to be the Eton Boating Song, surely:
When you're tired of winning
When you get tired of fame
Or when your head is spinning
And you've drunk all the best champagne
Then we'll all sing together
To society we'll be true
Then we'll all sing together
Society waits for you
Oh how we all get richer
Playing the rolling game
Only the poor get poorer
We feed off them all the same
Then we'll all sing together
To society we'll be true
Then we'll all sing together
Society waits for you
Some may call us sinners
We think of ourselves as saints
Some may call us killers
It's done with such restraint
Then we'll all sing together
To society we'll be true
Then we'll all sing together
Society waits for you
Some may call us sinners
We think of ourselves as saints
Some may call us killers
It's done with such restraint
Then we'll all sing together
To society we'll be true
Then we'll all sing together
Society waits for you
I dont know about an anthem Snibbo, but the words of that song are definitely crazy enough to win the Eurovision song contest! 064.gif
Not a great fan of national anthems (or religion). How about streets of London by Ralph Mctell (just kidding, don't want to offend
Manchester, Newcastle etc.).
Quote from: Holders on November 27, 2022, 09:06:33 PM
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on November 27, 2022, 08:17:02 PM
Ok Holders. The Fields of Athenry, while a catchy tune I'm not sure would do as a national anthem. Have you listened to the words? its anti-establishment, in fact anti British establishment, about starvation and the famine and how the crown dealt with that period of Irish history. It's mainly sang at Rugby matches rather than soccer, and thats surprising given that some on the Irish Rugby team hail from unionist backgrounds. Celtic supporters also sing it at their matches, as do Liverpool supporter, though I think they use the air to different lyrics.
I expect in the next 10 to 15 years, post border poll/referendum and Irish unity, we are going to have to come up with a totally new anthem that will represent everyone on the whole Island. But of course, none of this addresses the issue of an English anthem.
Mr Cobh. I know the words well and totally empathise with the sentiment, although not an anthem as such of course. I can understand it being construed as anti-British in Ireland but plenty of people from here were transported as well for stealing their lord's corn. In our case the oppressing lords will mostly have been of Norman descent. Trevelyan sounds Cornish.
You'd better get on with your border poll! I've got £20 riding on it happening within 10 years from you-know-what.
No, I'm still looking for ideas. I guess we'll be stuck with GSTK when the UK breaks up as part of the rationale will have disappeared. .
Love this song, but it's a song identified with Celtic fans, who sing many Irish songs, especially about this historical period, as well as by fans of Irish national teams. The tune is also used by Liverpool fans, where many are of Irish descent, who sing the 'The fields of Anfield', or something like that.
It's a song very much associated with Irish nationalism and identity, which many of those living in the west of Scotland have, associated with the Great Famine, which caused them to move there from Ireland all those years ago, often facing prejudice from the local, Protestant population - and to America and England of course.
In Glasgow, which my wife comes from and where I've lived, fans of Celtic and Rangers both sing about the Potatoe Famine, still - from different sides, and the authorities have tried unsuccessfully for years to stamp out 'sectarianism.'
I agree the song has a resonance for many in this country, and is a great song imo, but there is no way it would be accepted as an anthem for England - by a number of people, imo - though things could change in the future, especially with events in Ireland.
Quote from: jarv on November 28, 2022, 08:58:25 AM
Not a great fan of national anthems (or religion). How about streets of London by Ralph Mctell (just kidding, don't want to offend
Manchester, Newcastle etc.).
No, you can't have that, sorry. Israel has got it reserved for if ever England adopts Jerusalem.
+ 1
Brazil v Switzerland.
Shows ours is a long way from being the worst.
Brazil: Tune all over the place, much too long and far too quick for mass singing.
Switzerland: Ultra mournful. They've got the title spot on though. "Send us your cash and we'll ask no questions." I think I've translated that right.
Quote from: cmg on November 28, 2022, 04:09:27 PM
Switzerland: Ultra mournful. They've got the title spot on though. "Send us your cash and we'll ask no questions." I think I've translated that right.
I thought that was Prince Charles' anthem...
