interesting times for Spurs fans...

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

Now that long over due action is threatened against them for their continued racist chanting, will they stop being the Y** army, become the Jew army, or desert altogether?

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIvJC1_hKt8#

[Irelands_number1]

Its all a bit ridiculous to me. the video is so childish.. the Y word the N word the P word...
Maybe im a bit too thick skinned but Ive been called a cracker and stuff before in America, and a white b@st... but i dont take any offence to it?
Anyway thats another matter but the Spurs thing is really ridiculous. the club has got historical Jewish roots. If Celtic called themselves the Paddy army or fenian army because of their Irish association nobody would say anything??

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

Its all a bit ridiculous to me. the video is so childish.. the Y word the N word the P word...
Maybe im a bit too thick skinned but Ive been called a cracker and stuff before in America, and a white b@st... but i dont take any offence to it?
Anyway thats another matter but the Spurs thing is really ridiculous. the club has got historical Jewish roots. If Celtic called themselves the Paddy army or fenian army because of their Irish association nobody would say anything??

Celtic fined over chants

Monday, 12/12/2011

UEFA, European football's governing body have fined Celtic 15,000 euros after their fans sang "offensive songs" during the game against Rennes.

Police told UEFA that they were unhappy about repeated "illicit chanting" during the Europa League game last month.

Even the team's own fans have complained to the club about some of the recent chanting, which have included pro-IRA songs.

Earlier this year, Rangers were fined 80,000 euros for "discriminatory behaviour" during their game against PSV Eindhoven. Their fans were also banned from travelling to their next European away game.

The Scottish Premier League have announced they will take no further action.

[Oiseau]

Kick it out: We need to get rid of the Y-word from football but reporting Spurs fans to police would be idiotic and is NOT the way to do it.

9th November 2012 - 13:03

Earlier this week I attended an event in which Roy Hodgson received an award for Contribution to Racial Understanding in 2012.

It was given out by the Yad Vashem organisation, and followed the visit by Wayne Rooney, Joe Hart and the rest of the England squad to Aushwitz in June.

"It was a very harrowing experience," said Hodgson. "We can't deny the fact that footballers today have a very big influence on young players' lives and if they can talk about their experiences of Holocaust education then I will be very happy."

In the 1930s, when Hitler was laying the foundations for his genocidal regime in Germany, his supporters in London marched through the East End shouting "Down with the Yids". Yid, up until its reclamation by Spurs fans in the 1980s, was a term of opprobrium equivalent to words like "******" and "Paki". So, as a Jewish football fan, I have some sympathy with the Society of Black Lawyers' claim that using it in match-day chants is offensive.

Indeed, the anti-semitic epithet was popularised by the 1960s' sitcom Till Death Us Do Part. Sitting in his living room with a West Ham scarf draped around his neck, the show's bigoted anti-hero, Alf Garnett, would frequently rant against "those Spurs Yids".

Garnett's antipathy fed off a longstanding rivalry between the two clubs, inflamed by some East Enders' resentment of the Jews who had "deserted" Whitechapel for White Hart Lane. Ironically, the actor who portrayed Garnett – Warren Mitchell – was, himself, a Jewish Spurs fan.

Personally, I feel uncomfortable walking to White Hart Lane and hearing the "Yid Army" chant. [Me too] I feel it gives racist fans the licence to respond with offensive songs like "Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" and "He's only a poor little Yiddo." Yet I also understand why Jewish Spurs fans, like my friend Ivan Cohen, argue that supporters have "reappropriated the Yiddo slur as a badge of honour".

As Ivan writes in his latest blog, "if you are truly serious about removing racism and anti-Semitism from football then you should start by dealing with the large sections of clubs such as Chelsea which constantly barrack Spurs on the basis of our alleged Jewish connections.

"When they stop calling us 'dirty Yids' and making gas chamber sounds, when they stop singing 'Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz' I will happily then campaign for my fellow Spurs fans to stop applying the term Yids to ourselves."

In my new book Does Your Rabbi Know You're Here, I look at Spurs' Jewish roots and how their fans had to put up with the abhorrent gas chamber hissing of some away fans.

There is a common misconception that Tottenham are the only Jewish club. Founded in 1882 by members of the Hotspur Cricket Club, Spurs' earliest religious links were actually with Christian groups. Their first Secretary was a churchwarden at the Church of England's All Hallows Parish on Tottenham High Road and their first president was leader of the local YMCA.

In 1899, they moved to White Hart Lane. The majority of London's eastern European immigrants lived in the the Spitalfields-Whitechapel-Stepney area at the time – by the first decade of the twentieth century believed to be the largest Jewish community in Europe – and were much closer, geographically, to West Ham.

But The Lane was the easiest ground to get to. For secular Jews who were happy to travel by train, the Stoke Newington and Edmonton Railway from Liverpool Street, near Spitalfields, allowed them to observe their new shabbat ritual of cheering on The Spurs.

Also, Spurs are far from being the only club supported by Jews: Leeds United. Manchester City, Arsenal and Leyton Orient have all had big connections.

In fact, from Louis Bookman (Bradford City) – the first Jew to play in the top flight in 1912 – to Roman Abramovich (Chelsea), Jews have been involved as players, fans managers, directors, thinkers, fighters, writers, administrators and owners.

It may even be out-dated for Spurs to call themselves a Jewish club these days. True, they have Jewish owners. But so do some other clubs.

They have Jewish fans, but not more than some other clubs. They have a Jewish heritage, but again no more than some other clubs. It would be fair to assume that the majority of Spurs fans who chant the Y-word are not Jewish. So it's not completely accurate to compare this situation to black comedians and rappers reappropriating the N-word.

In a perfect world, the Y-word would not be used. But it would be idiotic to report to the police any anti-Semitic chants heard at White Hart Lane. The real evil emanates from the anti-Semites who taunt Spurs – and, it should be noted, Jewish players and fans from other teams.

Still, I would like there to be a national conversation, initiated by Spurs fans, about how they can move on from the Yid Army.

And how, in Ivan's words, they can eventually "stop applying the term Yids to ourselves."

**

Anthony Clavane's Does Your Rabbi Know You're Here? is published by Quercus and available on Amazon here.

Anthony is also a sportswriter for the Sunday Mirror. Here is a video clip of an event by Clavane and former FA chairman Lord Triesman on Jews in football.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/we-need-to-get-rid-of-the-y-word-from-football-but-reporting-1426984

[Scrumpy]

I think EW Malone is being a bit mischievous here. There is a world of difference between saying 'Sod off you Y1d' to somebody, and Spurs' more boisterous element chanting 'Y1d Army' about themselves.

I really don't think zero tolerance works in the field of racism. I think common sense works better!

It reminds me of an incident a few years back at Wigan. Some of the Fulham youth had been chanting 'Come on you Whites' on the train on the way to the JJB and found Old Bill waiting for them when they arrived in Wigan. The reason was that some black woman had reported them for racists chants. Needless to say, the police soon realised that there were no charges to answer.

In the UK, I really do not believe there is a serious problem and all this muck raking is just making things worse. I think we would all feel happier if the football 'powers that be' cracked down on racism in Spain, Italy and Eastern Europe, where there still appears to be problems.

[os5889]

I think EW Malone is being a bit mischievous here. There is a world of difference between saying 'Sod off you Y1d' to somebody, and Spurs' more boisterous element chanting 'Y1d Army' about themselves.

I really don't think zero tolerance works in the field of racism. I think common sense works better!

It reminds me of an incident a few years back at Wigan. Some of the Fulham youth had been chanting 'Come on you Whites' on the train on the way to the JJB and found Old Bill waiting for them when they arrived in Wigan. The reason was that some black woman had reported them for racists chants. Needless to say, the police soon realised that there were no charges to answer.

In the UK, I really do not believe there is a serious problem and all this muck raking is just making things worse. I think we would all feel happier if the football 'powers that be' cracked down on racism in Spain, Italy and Eastern Europe, where there still appears to be problems.

This Mr Scrumpy is my post of the year, thank you for succinctly putting into words what my head wants to say but often forgets as it gets drawn off onto a tangential subject.

There are a lot of people with bees in their bonnets over matters which quite frankly I feel are making us look like a laughing stock! Think of the fund being invested in these campaigns which could be reinvested in youth football improving our games rather than racism in football being seen as some dirty little secret as a smokescreen for lining lawyers pockets.

What next adverts from lawyers saying clubs have put aside millions, you too could be eligible for football hate crimes you've unwittingly suffered over the last 40 years....

[Oiseau]

I think EW Malone is being a bit mischievous here. There is a world of difference between saying 'Sod off you Y1d' to somebody, and Spurs' more boisterous element chanting 'Y1d Army' about themselves.

I really don't think zero tolerance works in the field of racism. I think common sense works better!

It reminds me of an incident a few years back at Wigan. Some of the Fulham youth had been chanting 'Come on you Whites' on the train on the way to the JJB and found Old Bill waiting for them when they arrived in Wigan. The reason was that some black woman had reported them for racists chants. Needless to say, the police soon realised that there were no charges to answer.

In the UK, I really do not believe there is a serious problem and all this muck raking is just making things worse. I think we would all feel happier if the football 'powers that be' cracked down on racism in Spain, Italy and Eastern Europe, where there still appears to be problems.

Part of me does not want to post my opinion in this thread because it's likely to pull me into trouble. However, another part of me would like to correct misinformation around the Y-word. I'd also like to add that I'm Jewish and obviously not a Spurs supporter (my family have historically been Fulham, Leeds and Arsenal supporters.)

The crucial point in the debate surrounding the Y-word is that the majority of Spurs fans are not Jewish. Therefore, it is not their word to 'reclaim.' They cannot use the Y-word to refer to themselves because it's a word that does not belong to them. It's a word that belongs to Jews, not to a football club. Imagine if I were to refer to myself (as a white-passing individual) using the n-word. It's unacceptable.

Yes, Spurs have some Jewish fans but certainly no more than any other club (as the article above states, their Jewish identity is really a fallacy.) It's acceptable for Jewish fans to use the Y-word but the must be mindful of the distress that it causes other Jews. They should not use the word to refer to a football club or a group of fans who are not entirely Jewish, however.

David Baddiel makes an excellent point about the reappropriation of the Y-word in the Guardian,

'In his article (The Sport blog, 9 November), John Crace celebrates Spurs' fans "reclaiming" of the word Yid. However, Spurs fans did not reclaim the word in the normal way that that process is understood; in the way, for example, rappers reclaimed the N-word. Rappers reclaimed the N-word because they are black and proud to be so. Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews – thus the first example in history of a race-hate word being "reclaimed" not by the race in question – appropriated the word not because they are proud to be Jewish, but because they are proud to be Spurs fans. It's a big difference. The semiotic underneath the chant is: "We are so proud of being Spurs fans, we'll even embrace being called Yids, of all things, if it identifies us with the club." This is, and will always remain, fundamentally patronising and insulting to Jews.'

It's important to note that Spurs fans' use of the Y-word makes anti-Semitic chants more acceptable. It invites such abuse. It is also more likely to force away members of the Jewish community than to attract them to the club.

This article about Ajax and their relationship with Judaism is really worth a read,

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/world/europe/28iht-jews.html

I know that boisterous chanting of the Y-word might seem harmless to non-Jews, but I personally find it quite threatening. I'm far from the only Jewish football fan who feels this. I found visiting WHL and the Spurs match at the Cottage last season intensely uncomfortable because of the chanting. I have every right to sit through a football match and to not feel threatened in such a way (don't tell me not to listen, it's not as if I can ignore it and I'm not going let prejudice force me to miss a Fulham match.)

My issue with Spurs as a club is that they do nothing to educate their fans about the true meaning of the Y-word. Their players have been known to use it. They seem to do nothing to disassociate themselves with it.

When I went to White Hart Lane last season I saw a number of club shirts with 'Yid'/'Yid Army' printed on the back.
Now, imagine if a club printed shirts with the n-word on the back...

Post-script: I do agree that there are forms of prejudice especially abroad that really do need assertive action (particularly in Eastern Europe.) I also agree that there's probably no way in which we can alter the opinions of all fans. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to educate them, though. 

[The Doctor]

The problem with all this is that if you look hard enough you can find offence in almost anything...where do we draw the line?  Our own club nickname invites homophobic abuse...should we change that to avoid the chance of abuse?  We'll have no choice but to when our self-appointed moral guardians cotton on.

But let's not pretend this debate is about addressing social injustice.  It's about legal professionals drumming up business for themselves

[Lighthouse]

There was an interesting article in The Oldie some months ago about the fact that we used to use these words without any hate attached to them.

Nowadays we don't use the words and there is more division. Once you report people for chanting then we can all take offence at all sorts of words. Words not used become the weapon and the words we always used to use suddenly become insulting.

You insult me because I am black. Or you diss me because I iz fat. When in fact you were just asking if they had the time. Sticks and stones can break my bones but I will find any excuse to be insulted.

Yes we need to stop racism. But the words are not the worst of it.

[Scrumpy]

That's very interesting Oiseau and I can't see why this would pull you into trouble. Obviously, the way that white, middle-aged, agnostics like me view things is very different from the way Jewish people do.

Your reply is very well constructed and I think the key quote is from Baddiel. "We are so proud of being Spurs fans, we'll even embrace being called Yids, of all things, if it identifies us with the club." This is, and will always remain, fundamentally patronising and insulting to Jews.'

That is an angle I had not really considered from a Jewish point of view. All I can say is that the views I made, are probably the views of the majority of (non jewish) footbal fans that I know. But your response has certainly given me food for thought.

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

I think EW Malone is being a bit mischievous here. There is a world of difference between saying 'Sod off you Y1d' to somebody, and Spurs' more boisterous element chanting 'Y1d Army' about themselves.

I really don't think zero tolerance works in the field of racism. I think common sense works better!

It reminds me of an incident a few years back at Wigan. Some of the Fulham youth had been chanting 'Come on you Whites' on the train on the way to the JJB and found Old Bill waiting for them when they arrived in Wigan. The reason was that some black woman had reported them for racists chants. Needless to say, the police soon realised that there were no charges to answer.

In the UK, I really do not believe there is a serious problem and all this muck raking is just making things worse. I think we would all feel happier if the football 'powers that be' cracked down on racism in Spain, Italy and Eastern Europe, where there still appears to be problems.

This Mr Scrumpy is my post of the year, thank you for succinctly putting into words what my head wants to say but often forgets as it gets drawn off onto a tangential subject.

There are a lot of people with bees in their bonnets over matters which quite frankly I feel are making us look like a laughing stock! Think of the fund being invested in these campaigns which could be reinvested in youth football improving our games rather than racism in football being seen as some dirty little secret as a smokescreen for lining lawyers pockets.

What next adverts from lawyers saying clubs have put aside millions, you too could be eligible for football hate crimes you've unwittingly suffered over the last 40 years....

oh dear...

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

That's very interesting Oiseau and I can't see why this would pull you into trouble. Obviously, the way that white, middle-aged, agnostics like me view things is very different from the way Jewish people do.

Your reply is very well constructed and I think the key quote is from Baddiel. "We are so proud of being Spurs fans, we'll even embrace being called Yids, of all things, if it identifies us with the club." This is, and will always remain, fundamentally patronising and insulting to Jews.'

That is an angle I had not really considered from a Jewish point of view. All I can say is that the views I made, are probably the views of the majority of (non jewish) footbal fans that I know. But your response has certainly given me food for thought.

Baddiel supports Chelsea

"I had not really considered from a Jewish point of view" - No sh*t sherlock...

[epsomraver]

I think EW Malone is being a bit mischievous here. There is a world of difference between saying 'Sod off you Y1d' to somebody, and Spurs' more boisterous element chanting 'Y1d Army' about themselves.

I really don't think zero tolerance works in the field of racism. I think common sense works better!  

It reminds me of an incident a few years back at Wigan. Some of the Fulham youth had been chanting 'Come on you Whites' on the train on the way to the JJB and found Old Bill waiting for them when they arrived in Wigan. The reason was that some black woman had reported them for racists chants. Needless to say, the police soon realised that there were no charges to answer.

In the UK, I really do not believe there is a serious problem and all this muck raking is just making things worse. I think we would all feel happier if the football 'powers that be' cracked down on racism in Spain, Italy and Eastern Europe, where there still appears to be problems.

Part of me does not want to post my opinion in this thread because it's likely to pull me into trouble. However, another part of me would like to correct misinformation around the Y-word. I'd also like to add that I'm Jewish and obviously not a Spurs supporter (my family have historically been Fulham, Leeds and Arsenal supporters.)

The crucial point in the debate surrounding the Y-word is that the majority of Spurs fans are not Jewish. Therefore, it is not their word to 'reclaim.' They cannot use the Y-word to refer to themselves because it's a word that does not belong to them. It's a word that belongs to Jews, not to a football club. Imagine if I were to refer to myself (as a white-passing individual) using the n-word. It's unacceptable.

Yes, Spurs have some Jewish fans but certainly no more than any other club (as the article above states, their Jewish identity is really a fallacy.) It's acceptable for Jewish fans to use the Y-word but the must be mindful of the distress that it causes other Jews. They should not use the word to refer to a football club or a group of fans who are not entirely Jewish, however.

David Baddiel makes an excellent point about the reappropriation of the Y-word in the Guardian,

'In his article (The Sport blog, 9 November), John Crace celebrates Spurs' fans "reclaiming" of the word Yid. However, Spurs fans did not reclaim the word in the normal way that that process is understood; in the way, for example, rappers reclaimed the N-word. Rappers reclaimed the N-word because they are black and proud to be so. Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews – thus the first example in history of a race-hate word being "reclaimed" not by the race in question – appropriated the word not because they are proud to be Jewish, but because they are proud to be Spurs fans. It's a big difference. The semiotic underneath the chant is: "We are so proud of being Spurs fans, we'll even embrace being called Yids, of all things, if it identifies us with the club." This is, and will always remain, fundamentally patronising and insulting to Jews.'

It's important to note that Spurs fans' use of the Y-word makes anti-Semitic chants more acceptable. It invites such abuse. It is also more likely to force away members of the Jewish community than to attract them to the club.

This article about Ajax and their relationship with Judaism is really worth a read,

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/world/europe/28iht-jews.html

I know that boisterous chanting of the Y-word might seem harmless to non-Jews, but I personally find it quite threatening. I'm far from the only Jewish football fan who feels this. I found visiting WHL and the Spurs match at the Cottage last season intensely uncomfortable because of the chanting. I have every right to sit through a football match and to not feel threatened in such a way (don't tell me not to listen, it's not as if I can ignore it and I'm not going let prejudice force me to miss a Fulham match.)

My issue with Spurs as a club is that they do nothing to educate their fans about the true meaning of the Y-word. Their players have been known to use it. They seem to do nothing to disassociate themselves with it.

When I went to White Hart Lane last season I saw a number of club shirts with 'Yid'/'Yid Army' printed on the back.
Now, imagine if a club printed shirts with the n-word on the back...

Post-script: I do agree that there are forms of prejudice especially abroad that really do need assertive action (particularly in Eastern Europe.) I also agree that there's probably no way in which we can alter the opinions of all fans. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to educate them, though.   

For somebody who moaned about being abused by others in the past you really like bashing the old politics on here don't you, read Scrumpy's post , it MAKES sense, If you are offended by the word then don't go to spurs, they are not chanting it at you it is what they want to call themselves and it is a free world, at least it was  until some black lawyer with his black association who doesn't go to matches, never hears what is allegedly said yet complains, really good way to achieve racial harmony and you are aiding and abetting him and his like

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

I think EW Malone is being a bit mischievous here. There is a world of difference between saying 'Sod off you Y1d' to somebody, and Spurs' more boisterous element chanting 'Y1d Army' about themselves.

I really don't think zero tolerance works in the field of racism. I think common sense works better!  

It reminds me of an incident a few years back at Wigan. Some of the Fulham youth had been chanting 'Come on you Whites' on the train on the way to the JJB and found Old Bill waiting for them when they arrived in Wigan. The reason was that some black woman had reported them for racists chants. Needless to say, the police soon realised that there were no charges to answer.

In the UK, I really do not believe there is a serious problem and all this muck raking is just making things worse. I think we would all feel happier if the football 'powers that be' cracked down on racism in Spain, Italy and Eastern Europe, where there still appears to be problems.

Part of me does not want to post my opinion in this thread because it's likely to pull me into trouble. However, another part of me would like to correct misinformation around the Y-word. I'd also like to add that I'm Jewish and obviously not a Spurs supporter (my family have historically been Fulham, Leeds and Arsenal supporters.)

The crucial point in the debate surrounding the Y-word is that the majority of Spurs fans are not Jewish. Therefore, it is not their word to 'reclaim.' They cannot use the Y-word to refer to themselves because it's a word that does not belong to them. It's a word that belongs to Jews, not to a football club. Imagine if I were to refer to myself (as a white-passing individual) using the n-word. It's unacceptable.

Yes, Spurs have some Jewish fans but certainly no more than any other club (as the article above states, their Jewish identity is really a fallacy.) It's acceptable for Jewish fans to use the Y-word but the must be mindful of the distress that it causes other Jews. They should not use the word to refer to a football club or a group of fans who are not entirely Jewish, however.

David Baddiel makes an excellent point about the reappropriation of the Y-word in the Guardian,

'In his article (The Sport blog, 9 November), John Crace celebrates Spurs' fans "reclaiming" of the word Yid. However, Spurs fans did not reclaim the word in the normal way that that process is understood; in the way, for example, rappers reclaimed the N-word. Rappers reclaimed the N-word because they are black and proud to be so. Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews – thus the first example in history of a race-hate word being "reclaimed" not by the race in question – appropriated the word not because they are proud to be Jewish, but because they are proud to be Spurs fans. It's a big difference. The semiotic underneath the chant is: "We are so proud of being Spurs fans, we'll even embrace being called Yids, of all things, if it identifies us with the club." This is, and will always remain, fundamentally patronising and insulting to Jews.'

It's important to note that Spurs fans' use of the Y-word makes anti-Semitic chants more acceptable. It invites such abuse. It is also more likely to force away members of the Jewish community than to attract them to the club.

This article about Ajax and their relationship with Judaism is really worth a read,

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/world/europe/28iht-jews.html

I know that boisterous chanting of the Y-word might seem harmless to non-Jews, but I personally find it quite threatening. I'm far from the only Jewish football fan who feels this. I found visiting WHL and the Spurs match at the Cottage last season intensely uncomfortable because of the chanting. I have every right to sit through a football match and to not feel threatened in such a way (don't tell me not to listen, it's not as if I can ignore it and I'm not going let prejudice force me to miss a Fulham match.)

My issue with Spurs as a club is that they do nothing to educate their fans about the true meaning of the Y-word. Their players have been known to use it. They seem to do nothing to disassociate themselves with it.

When I went to White Hart Lane last season I saw a number of club shirts with 'Yid'/'Yid Army' printed on the back.
Now, imagine if a club printed shirts with the n-word on the back...

Post-script: I do agree that there are forms of prejudice especially abroad that really do need assertive action (particularly in Eastern Europe.) I also agree that there's probably no way in which we can alter the opinions of all fans. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to educate them, though.   

For somebody who moaned about being abused by others in the past you really like bashing the old politics on here don't you, read Scrumpy's post , it MAKES sense, If you are offended by the word then don't go to spurs, they are not chanting it at you it is what they want to call themselves and it is a free world, at least it was  until some black lawyer with his black association who doesn't go to matches, never hears what is allegedly said yet complains, really good way to achieve racial harmony and you are aiding and abetting him and his like

if he was a white lawyer would it have been Ok?

[epsomraver]

If he was spokesperson for the white lawyers association he would be called a racist wouldn't he? stick your wooden spoon where the son don't shine I am off.

[Berserker]

I'm locking this one as everybody has had their twopenny worth, plus i need my beauty sleep ready for the Arsenal game