Leno's decline

[hopper]

Not a single new comment on this thread since the final whistle yesterday, long may it continue, looks like the haters have moved onto Oscar Bobb.

Typical reactive take.

Really happy to have kept a clean sheet and he made a great stop. The issue isn't that he never makes good saves, as all do. As has been discussed elsewhere, various stats show he's not been performing well for the past few seasons.

[General]

Not a single new comment on this thread since the final whistle yesterday, long may it continue, looks like the haters have moved onto Oscar Bobb.

Typical reactive take.

Really happy to have kept a clean sheet and he made a great stop. The issue isn't that he never makes good saves, as all do. As has been discussed elsewhere, various stats show he's not been performing well for the past few seasons.

Last two games he's done well, and the game before the Liverpool game he made a few good saves. Data only tells one story when put in hindsight. Recent games suggest he's upped it again. Jury is still out as he's clearly not over the hill and done as many want to suggest.

[hopper]

Not a single new comment on this thread since the final whistle yesterday, long may it continue, looks like the haters have moved onto Oscar Bobb.

Typical reactive take.

Really happy to have kept a clean sheet and he made a great stop. The issue isn't that he never makes good saves, as all do. As has been discussed elsewhere, various stats show he's not been performing well for the past few seasons.

Last two games he's done well, and the game before the Liverpool game he made a few good saves. Data only tells one story when put in hindsight. Recent games suggest he's upped it again. Jury is still out as he's clearly not over the hill and done as many want to suggest.

Can't agree with an assessment that claims he did well in the Palace game I'm afraid General much as I often like your posts.

Seems there's a big divide on the Leno issue. He was in my opinion magnificent in the first season back. But two seasons ago pretty much everything flew past him, and that repeated last year. People can refute stats if they like but I don't think he passes the eye test either. For a keeper he also struggles with distribution, claiming crosses, or even penalty stops.

I really feel like people have their blinkers on with him but it's evident others are still big fans. I'll put it this way I don't think many or any other teams would want to trade their keeper for Leno and you'll never see opposition fans talk about how good he's been.

Of course he deserves respect as he's been a big part of our consolidation in the league, but that doesn't change the reality.

[General]

Not a single new comment on this thread since the final whistle yesterday, long may it continue, looks like the haters have moved onto Oscar Bobb.

Typical reactive take.

Really happy to have kept a clean sheet and he made a great stop. The issue isn't that he never makes good saves, as all do. As has been discussed elsewhere, various stats show he's not been performing well for the past few seasons.

Last two games he's done well, and the game before the Liverpool game he made a few good saves. Data only tells one story when put in hindsight. Recent games suggest he's upped it again. Jury is still out as he's clearly not over the hill and done as many want to suggest.

Can't agree with an assessment that claims he did well in the Palace game I'm afraid General much as I often like your posts.

Seems there's a big divide on the Leno issue. He was in my opinion magnificent in the first season back. But two seasons ago pretty much everything flew past him, and that repeated last year. People can refute stats if they like but I don't think he passes the eye test either. For a keeper he also struggles with distribution, claiming crosses, or even penalty stops.

I really feel like people have their blinkers on with him but it's evident others are still big fans. I'll put it this way I don't think many or any other teams would want to trade their keeper for Leno and you'll never see opposition fans talk about how good he's been.

Of course he deserves respect as he's been a big part of our consolidation in the league, but that doesn't change the reality.

Look i think he's a solid pro at this level, similar to Andersen, and whilst not perfect (very few are), he's part of and been part of a pretty solid defence the last couple of years.

Based on goals against last season, we conceded less than many team above us, including Man Utd who finished 3rd/4th. That doesn't suggest these players are atrocious or as bad as so many seem keen to believe and say.

What I'd suggest it's more suggestive of is that when people are trying to find ways we can get better they're being less tolerant of mistakes and looking for failings to highlight more, A) to feel like they're saying something meaningful- many of whom I imagine are younger posters and B) to find reasons for improvement and to rationalise where they may come from beyond giving players time to adapt to a new manager, new tactics or whatever..

The reality in my eyes is that whilst all of the above could be true, and may be to small degrees here and there, the biggest underlying factor is that for us to move onto the next stage is that we need to start competing for harder and harder to get players, because to get players who make less mistakes or whatever are rarer and more sought after (by the clubs they're at or bigger buying clubs), and that line between what we have and haven't got in terms of that additional quality is the fine line.

Look at our transfer window for an example.. want Pitarch? He apparently looked around Motspur but real didn't let him go. See Affengruber.. seems like he could be a good find, but he was our fourth or fifth choice behind the younger talents like Boudlal who's club didn't want to sell them. And so on..

I think people need to understand that the next step requires a lot more nuance, patience and also transfer business to be done differently.. the club have shown life to this regards in getting in Bobb, Kevin, Charles, Larsson, Garcia, Palacios, Angel etc, but it'll be a phased changing of the guard, as it should be, and not a straightforward either as players we do bring in aren't necessarily guaranteed to adapt.

We have to take punts on players that are showing significant potential and have a manager/coach who has the ability to sit with players and help them grow as players and people to overcome whatever emotional limitations are blocking them from reaching their full potential.

For what it's worth, I think Kevin is one who's going through that developmental, Garcia and Palacios go in that bucket, and I think ESR is on that continual journey too. All of them can come good and go beyond most expectations if they perserve.. similarly like Wilson, Dempsey and Zamora, and more recently Josh King, but when they do they'll be more than one season wonders as its not technique or skill that's holding them back but mindset and application which anyone can break through on.

Their ceilings are all higher, in my opinion than that of Dempsey, Camera etc, because they're all more naturally and technically talented, whereas Dempsey, Zamora etc all seemed more workhorses who go there through yes talent, but perhaps more hard work, if that makes sense?

Leno is, whether people care enough or not, a dependable and good PL level keeper and solid enough for a top 10 side, especially with players in front of him who are also at the same level.

[Jim©]

good PL level keeper and solid enough for a top 10 side

General, you're simply incorrect on this one.
Leno is not top ten level across any of the last three seasons. Whether you want to look at it statistically or via the naked eye. (Finished 14/14/12th in terms of save % those last seasons). I use save percetnages as it takes away your argument about the players in front of him to a certain extent.
Yes we didn't concede many as a team, but we weren't particularly inspiring or attacking to watch last season.
I like the Leno, I think he's good but would like a new keeper prioritsed in the next window as I want to get into Europe again.

Like Raul, thought he was really good, especially for his age, but time to get someone better so in comes Garcia.
 

[hopper]

good PL level keeper and solid enough for a top 10 side

General, you're simply incorrect on this one.
Leno is not top ten level across any of the last three seasons. Whether you want to look at it statistically or via the naked eye. (Finished 14/14/12th in terms of save % those last seasons). I use save percetnages as it takes away your argument about the players in front of him to a certain extent.
Yes we didn't concede many as a team, but we weren't particularly inspiring or attacking to watch last season.
I like the Leno, I think he's good but would like a new keeper prioritsed in the next window as I want to get into Europe again.

Like Raul, thought he was really good, especially for his age, but time to get someone better so in comes Garcia.
 

Yeah agree. There's so much to back this up as well, such as stats that measure goals prevented to quality of the chance and he was bottom on this.

Promoted teams have made some good keeper signings in recent years such as Roefs and Tzolakis, so there are keepers out there.

Whilst I understand General's line that people are less tolerant of mistakes, if you're performing at the bottom of key stats for two seasons - it's not simply a case of one or two errors, it's long term form.

Not saying Leno is a bad keeper, clearly that's not true - but in comparison to his peers he's arguably the weakest in the league.

[AshfordFFC]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and peoples critique can be excessive however some things need to be considered.   I am an 'ex' paid up member of the goalkeeper's union being and ex keeper myself, sometimes things are out of our control.   

Firstly, I agree that Leno is getting to that age that we should be looking at a replacement (Although would not mind seeing Alex Borto in the WHU game).   I do not go by stats and only visually what I can see, however, people tend to forget the mitigating circumstances leading to a goal, ie:  vision / blocking, deflection, speed of shot, balance of keeper, position etc and I will be quick to  to say if keeper's fault or not.   Yes he made an error in the CP game and was not helped by GG (fair play to coming back anyway  ) but please see below a review of the new PL ball.

Review Consensus

The "Wild" Factor: Reviewers note it feels exceptionally zippy and fast off the boot, giving it an "extra gear" that increases shot speed.

Control Adjustment: Because it transfers energy so aggressively, powerful strikes can rise or behave slightly unpredictably if not cleanly hit, making it a fun ball for outfield players but a tough challenge for goalkeepers.

Short-range passing and general touch remain solid and comparable to standard FIFA Quality Pro match balls, though high-powered driven balls require refined technique.

Even if I was still 25 (59 this year) I don't know if I would have saved the near post goal v CP given the above remarks, and the speed it went past him, he hardly had time to raise his hand and equally as a keeper you are in 2 minds as to whether there there is a cross incoming or a shot and you are slightly unbalanced as to your position.   Yes, you should anticipate but it is extremely hard, especially with the speed of the game, especially today.

People will say, 'X' player cannot cross or 'X' player cannot pass, or 'X' player cannot shoot but they are not critiqued as much as a GK, as he is the last line of defence.

He made a great save v Liverpool from the header and then I queried to myself as to why he did not catch the ball that was shot straight at him as opposed to punching back out to play . . .. . until I read the above reviews on the new ball, and now I can understand why.

I am not excusing the new ball before anyone says you cannot blame it, however I have seen other games and as a viewer of goalkeeper's, I can honestly say, that the same mistakes are being made by all keepers, not just Leno.

Just my tuppence worth anyway and think what you will 

[Jim©]

the same mistakes are being made by all keepers, not just Leno

Ah, I completely get that, there's been more than a few this season that look to have taken keepers by surprise.
But those save % stats, whilst pretty crude (as it can often depend on factors such as ease of chance etc) do give a good picture over a longer period of time (ie a season).

Listen I'm no Leno hater, far from it i was delighted when we signed him and thought he was exceptional that season. But a great keeper will win you points single handedly. IMO I think he's better so far this season than last- one superb save v Palace in the 1st half and that save v Liverpool was excellent too. But Sunderland error and near post v Palace (not about getting hand to it, more about body positioning), were not great. The one against CFC he shares a bit of blame with the defenders.

He's fine, but with him being top earner (not his fault I know) and ageing, a new keeper is a real priority for me.


 

[Twig]

Not a single new comment on this thread since the final whistle yesterday, long may it continue, looks like the haters have moved onto Oscar Bobb.

Absolutely stupid and nasty comment. To be clear nobody, that is absolutely nobody Hates Bernd Leno. At least nobody on this board. This use of provocatice, click bait language is typical of a 14 year old WUM.

[Twig]

Not a single new comment on this thread since the final whistle yesterday, long may it continue, looks like the haters have moved onto Oscar Bobb.

Typical reactive take.

Really happy to have kept a clean sheet and he made a great stop. The issue isn't that he never makes good saves, as all do. As has been discussed elsewhere, various stats show he's not been performing well for the past few seasons.

Last two games he's done well, and the game before the Liverpool game he made a few good saves. Data only tells one story when put in hindsight. Recent games suggest he's upped it again. Jury is still out as he's clearly not over the hill and done as many want to suggest.

Nobody "wants" to suggest he's over the hill. They have just been pointing out that his stats have been declining towards bottom three of the Prem starting keepers. As to whether he has turned a corner, who knows as there is insufficient data to determine any sort of trend. Let's hope so.

[Chi_FFC]

I use save percetnages as it takes away your argument about the players in front of him to a certain extent.

Actually it does not. It's the advanced stats that do that and Leno has performed even worse in those stats the past two seasons because he actually has had an above average PL defense in front of him. 20th of 20 in goals prevented last season, 17th of 19 in the previous. Look, everyone is entitled to their opinions but not their own facts. And the fact of the matter is that over the past two seasons Leno has been one of the worst keepers in the PL. Now with that being said he's going to be our keeper this season (unless things get really bad going into January) so let's hope he can turn things around.

[john dempsey]

Putting the boot into 14 year olds
is not a good look.

[McGruber]

One would hope AA has a list of <25 year old Spanish GKs and we will bring one in this January to learn from Leno/Lecomte and work his way to be the starter by mid-season next year...

[McGruber]

I have nothing against Leno, he would likely do well enough for a promoted side next season, but his skillset doesn't exactly line up with our new tactics.