West Ham disallowed goal today

[SG]

Also, how do you judge who made the foul first? At the same time Mavropanos and Todibo(I think) were both held down in a similar fashion.

Exactly. An Arsenal player has Todibo in a bear hug, and although not seen from this angle, Rice has Mavropanos in a bear hug too. As you can see from that picture, Gabriel is also pulling Pablo's jersey, and also not visible from this angle Trossard is pulling Pablo's jersey too. So there are like 5 fouls there and the one that was called is the only one that was on an Arsenal player. Ridiculous. Especially as Arsenal themselves have done similar things and didn't get punished.

I'll repeat what I said before
There's always a lot of grey areas when players foul each other in the area at corners by pulling (there would be a penalty given at ever corner taken it happens so often), blocking happens every game but most are never given. But I think precedence comes here when there is a physical foul on the Raya's arms preventing him from catching the ball.

You are absolutely correct. There is a different threshold for the levels of grappling etc for a goalkeeper and outfield players. Pulling and shoving each other is considered to be equal - 6 of one half dozen of another - but as soon as a keeper is prevented from reaching the ball because an arm is across him and/or his shirt is pulled it is a foul.
We may not agree with it but that is the guidance for referees. The reality is that this behaviour has been going on for months and it has taken the Premier League referees 36 matches to wake up and apply the rules.

[SerbianLad]

1) Inconsistency is what you get when there are different officials, but why do you bring up another unrelated incident in another game to try to prove a point in this game ? So they got it wrong in the Villa game, what do want them to do get it wrong in this game too!!!

But it's not just that Villa game. There are countless other examples this season. And Arseanal have been the main beneficiaries of the more "lenient" approach from the referees in regards to situations like that. But once that goes against them, suddenly it's a foul. West Ham approached that situation in the same way Arsenal approach their set pieces, as this and last season have showed that that is something that is allowed.

2) I give up, you obviously haven't understood what I'm saying in my previous statements even though I put it in bold letters.

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. In what world is bear hugging someone allowed? There are about 3 clear fouls on West Ham players even before Raya is fouled. And again, even more importantly, there is no consitency, and similar things have been let go previously.

[SerbianLad]

it has taken the Premier League referees 36 matches to wake up and apply the rules.

That's the unfair part. They should have let that one slide too. You can't suddenly change the threshold with only a few games left in the season. Especially as the on field decision was a goal. How is it a clear and obvious error, when similar goals have been allowed to stand this season? I find some comments on this thread truly baffling.

West Ham is one of my least favourite teams in the league, and they cheated in multiple games against us in recent years to get wins over us, but the fact remains, that they were robbed yesterday, if you put it into context of this season's referee decisions.

[Ludlow Richard]

Also, how do you judge who made the foul first? At the same time Mavropanos and Todibo(I think) were both held down in a similar fashion.

Exactly. An Arsenal player has Todibo in a bear hug, and although not seen from this angle, Rice has Mavropanos in a bear hug too. As you can see from that picture, Gabriel is also pulling Pablo's jersey, and also not visible from this angle Trossard is pulling Pablo's jersey too. So there are like 5 fouls there and the one that was called is the only one that was on an Arsenal player. Ridiculous. Especially as Arsenal themselves have done similar things and didn't get punished.

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

[Super Mick]

Raya let's the ball slip through his fingers then flings himself on the deck

So you didn't notice the arm across Raya's neck then.

Well yeah but It's a tussle in the box. Everyone's grabbing and blocking everyone. I guarantee if that was us it would be a goal.

[Super Mick]

Raya let's the ball slip through his fingers then flings himself on the deck

So you didn't notice the arm across Raya's neck then.

Well yeah but It's a tussle in the box. Everyone's grabbing and blocking everyone. I guarantee if that was us it would be a goal. VAR probably wouldn't have even bothered getting involved!

[SerbianLad]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

[junior white]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

I think the first foul is by Soucek on Havertz by the near post, followed by any of 3 on west ham players and then the one on Raya. But, the whole idea isn't to re referee i believe, although for me thats what VAR does a lot of the time

[Pie n Mash]

How come that goal gets disallowed and Castagne's goal vs Villa gets disallowed, but e.g. Everton's goal against us for a similar "foul" doesn't get disallowed. I'm sick and tired of the PL referees.

At the end of day the decision to disallow Hammers goal was absolutely correct, end of.

Agree, but then a 2nd decision to award a penalty for holding should have been given.

Cannot hold and grab like that, it's a foul, it was going on before the challenge on the keeper.

Cannot look at an isolated incident, need to look at the whole picture.

[alfie]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

I think the first foul is by Soucek on Havertz by the near post, followed by any of 3 on west ham players and then the one on Raya. But, the whole idea isn't to re referee i believe, although for me thats what VAR does a lot of the time

According to the ref on mod last night the first foul is on Raya, all other incidents followed that, so the first foul was given.
That is why it took so long, it was to see what happened first. A lot of people will say it's big club bias, but Danny Murphy said last night you can't make a judgement because it's Arsenal you make the call on what happens, it was a foul on Raya.

[ffcne]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

I think the first foul is by Soucek on Havertz by the near post, followed by any of 3 on west ham players and then the one on Raya. But, the whole idea isn't to re referee i believe, although for me thats what VAR does a lot of the time

Looking at the video.My initial thought is the foul was by Havertz, who puts his hands behind him
and pulls Soucek to the ground

[junior white]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

I think the first foul is by Soucek on Havertz by the near post, followed by any of 3 on west ham players and then the one on Raya. But, the whole idea isn't to re referee i believe, although for me thats what VAR does a lot of the time

According to the ref on mod last night the first foul is on Raya, all other incidents followed that, so the first foul was given.
That is why it took so long, it was to see what happened first. A lot of people will say it's big club bias, but Danny Murphy said last night you can't make a judgement because it's Arsenal you make the call on what happens, it was a foul on Raya.

I agree thats what they said I just think there was a fair bit before the initial contact, also there is a debate as to did the trosas hold / push mean Pablo went into Raya.

The arm is a foul I do not dispute that but it was a tough call with a lot going on.

[junior white]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

I think the first foul is by Soucek on Havertz by the near post, followed by any of 3 on west ham players and then the one on Raya. But, the whole idea isn't to re referee i believe, although for me thats what VAR does a lot of the time

Looking at the video.My initial thought is the foul was by Havertz, who puts his hands behind him
and pulls Soucek to the ground

I can see that view point, for me Soucek starts it but it is horses for courses so maybe not a foul then :)

[SP]

Really feel for WHU, here's hoping Sir Trevor Brooking lobbies the authorities again like he did after the Tevez affair. 

[ffcne]

It also is pretty clear that Todibo has a handful of Raya's jersey. Unfortunately I have no stats on penalty area wrestling.

Shouldn't the first foul committed be the one that is called?

I think the first foul is by Soucek on Havertz by the near post, followed by any of 3 on west ham players and then the one on Raya. But, the whole idea isn't to re referee i believe, although for me thats what VAR does a lot of the time

Looking at the video.My initial thought is the foul was by Havertz, who puts his hands behind him
and pulls Soucek to the ground

I can see that view point, for me Soucek starts it but it is horses for courses so maybe not a foul then :)

I think Soucek has scored a few goals from that position with his head.

[Whitestone]

The football authorities have to take the blame. They've allowed shirt tugging, grappling, holding and wrestling to creep into the game over many years without taking positive action to stamp it out. They could easily have nipped it in the bud at the beginning, within the rules of the game.
That and the lack of consistency from referees has got us to where we are now and the football authorities have to sort it out asap. It's utterly ridiculous what goes on at corners these days. Red/yellow cards and penalties would soon put a stop. It's undoubtedly got worse this season but I can clearly remember Jamie Carragher some years ago with both arms around a Fulham attacker with his hands joined together preventing our player from escaping his grasp. Get rid of holding and shirt pulling and we'll have an improved game. Make every single shirt pull a yellow card offence.

[RaySmith]

Play stopped for 5 minute, then the ref's decision overturned -VAR should be binned, but I know it won't be.

So many players were grappling in the area, which Arsenal are now famous for for corners, with fouls committed on both sides before the pen incident, the authorities need to sort this out.

Along with VAR, it's making a farce of the game.

[SP]

The icing on the cake should be a hefty fine for WHU after their players surrounded the ref following the decision.

[alfie]

Another thing that went unnoticed, the hammers keeper went charging in recklessly smashing into Gabriel.

[Arthur]

I'm trying not to read between the lines of your post Alan, but are you making the point of 'common sense' vs VAR?

I'm of the opinion the level of consistency being called for - be it by referees or VAR - isn't possible unless the laws are 'black and white'. This is possible in some instances, such as the incident involving Raya - for which any and all contact with the goalkeeper could be deemed foul play - but not in every situation: how, for example, can contact between an attacker and a defender be covered by a 'black and white' law that unequivocally determines foul play one way or the other?; there are simply too many variables. And even if the law were unequivocal, this doesn't necessarily make it desirable or fair: do we want a law, for instance, that states a penalty be awarded whenever the ball hits a defender's hand – no matter what?
I think there needs to be more of an acceptance that some decisions carry a high degree of subjectivity - splitting opinion among supporters - and, in so doing, whichever way the referee calls it is correct (in the same way 'umpire's call' works in cricket.)
For a different reason, I'll send you a P.M. in the next couple of days.