England v Argentina World Cup Semifinal Thread

[Fulham 1879]

Tuchel takes the biggest share of the blame for his subs. However, Arsenal are guilty as hell. Rice and Madueke were poor all tournament and Saka not fit.

[Bassey the warrior]

I was thinking about what Marco would have said and done, and regrettably I find myself supporting some of the things that Nick Bateman has been droning on about.

So England score after 55 minutes. After that we stopped playing.  We have obviously learned nothing from Croatia in the previous semi and Italy in the Euro final. I can hear Silva saying that we have to be brave. From the 55th minute to the first hydration break we were already passive. We stopped trying to pass and play our way out of the much more intense press. By the time of the hydration break we had set the tone. Tuchel then doubled down on the tactics and brought on defensive reinforcements.

How would Silva have responded in this situation for Fulham, he would have thrown on Tom Cairney. We neded someone to hold the ball and then take the sting out of the press. This is where I reluctantly agree with Nick, as those players were left behind.

In the end, we took the lead too early and then played like minnows in an FA Cup match against Manchester City. Our national psyche is wrong as we went straight into this mindset as soon as we scored.

Mainoo is our Cairney in this scenario. We should've brought Wharton.

[Bassey the warrior]

Tuchel takes the biggest share of the blame for his subs. However, Arsenal are guilty as hell. Rice and Madueke were poor all tournament and Saka not fit.

Saka and Rice complete shadows of their former selves, they need a nice long holiday. Madueke unfortunately played exactly like himself, he's got all the tricks and flicks but absolutely no end product. Can't shoot, can't cross and is always diving. He's a premium version of Abou Kamara. I said before we should've brought Bowen, much more consistent.

[southwest6]

some slightly exaggerated takes on here... I still think Tuchel is the right man for the job and would personally love him to stay. The subs were wrong, deep down he will know that better than anyone, but some of our key players last night just didn't turn up, which didn't help. We never manage Kane's minutes well in tournaments; i don't think he has to play full minutes EVERY game. You could tell in the last few games that he was becoming really fatigued; Rice we know the story...

Say whatever you want, but you have to hand it to the Argies. Incredible mentality...

[bill taylors apprentice]

some slightly exaggerated takes on here... I still think Tuchel is the right man for the job and would personally love him to stay. The subs were wrong, deep down he will know that better than anyone, but some of our key players last night just didn't turn up, which didn't help. We never manage Kane's minutes well in tournaments; i don't think he has to play full minutes EVERY game. You could tell in the last few games that he was becoming really fatigued; Rice we know the story...

Say whatever you want, but you have to hand it to the Argies. Incredible mentality...

Yes, an incredible mentality which leads to the ability to manage the game, control midfield and create pressure.

Our players (apart from a few) always seem to lack the football intelligence found in the very best.

[Southcoastffc]

2 things - England sat back but Argentina only really started playing once they were a goal down. On the 'Cairney' point, Cole Palmer anyone?

[General]

We were dominant in the first half, after half time we got dominated. Did something happen at half time?

With Kane now unlikely to make another world cup, will someone else step up? We don't carry the same threat when he's not on the pitch in my opinion.

Second half, great to score, but was against run of play - Tuchel then made the mistakes of going too defensive too early - we invited Argentina on, with a single goal advantage, which is dumb, especially given their track record of coming back from behind in this world cup.

I think ultimately, did we lose the game, or did Argentina win it? Perhaps a mix? I think Tuchel's second half tactics and subs played into Argentina's hands perhaps too much and gave them more ascendency than they would've got otherwise.

All in all another disappointing exit, though only one team can ever win any cup competitions.

With France in the third game play off, I don't expect us to get anything out of the World Cup now.

France will want to prove a point and are the better side.

[Southcoastffc]

And an interesting post on Twitter:


"Guillem, I can't help repeating something I've told you before: England can never truly function as a team because they don't understand the word "solidarity" or the concept of collective football.

They always freeze when the decisive moment comes. They go out of every major tournament (World Cup or Euros) in the same way: not just losing, but making a mess of it. They always freeze when the decisive moment comes.

There's a historical pattern. At some point in the game they abandon each other. Every player starts looking after himself, trying to save his own skin.

Today they left the goalkeeper completely exposed. They all disappeared from the game, almost as if they were trying to avoid being singled out.

Can you say who was at fault for the goals? Exactly. The best thing for them is that no individual gets blamed. Collectively, they were responsible.

Everyone goes home relieved that it won't all fall on John or James. That it will all fall on Tuchel.

Meanwhile, Messi can hardly run, yet he spent the entire second half happily playing on the edge of the box. Enzo, too, kept finding space to shoot from the edge of the area — his trademark — until one finally went in.

An absolute disaster."

[Bassey the warrior]

2 things - England sat back but Argentina only really started playing once they were a goal down. On the 'Cairney' point, Cole Palmer anyone?

Centre mid is the priority,  we're not lacking number 10's. Wharton is a bigger miss than Palmer.

[Bassey the warrior]

We were dominant in the first half, after half time we got dominated. Did something happen at half time?

With Kane now unlikely to make another world cup, will someone else step up? We don't carry the same threat when he's not on the pitch in my opinion.

Second half, great to score, but was against run of play - Tuchel then made the mistakes of going too defensive too early - we invited Argentina on, with a single goal advantage, which is dumb, especially given their track record of coming back from behind in this world cup.

I think ultimately, did we lose the game, or did Argentina win it? Perhaps a mix? I think Tuchel's second half tactics and subs played into Argentina's hands perhaps too much and gave them more ascendency than they would've got otherwise.

All in all another disappointing exit, though only one team can ever win any cup competitions.

With France in the third game play off, I don't expect us to get anything out of the World Cup now.

France will want to prove a point and are the better side.

We lost the game because we lost the midfield battle, just like France did against Spain. Rice was ineffective, leaving Anderson to do it all on his own. We should've brought on Mainoo and gone 4-3-3 with Bellingham dropping back but still picking his moments to get forward. Mainoo would help keep the ball and regain momentum.

We should've kept Gordon on, when he departed that allowed Argentina's full back to bomb forward and they regularly created overloads leaving Spence overwhelmed.

By dropping to five at the back that gave Fernandez more time on the ball.

If none of that worked they should've subbed out Kane for Toney to keep hold of the ball and brought on Watkins for Rogers, and given him licence to find space.

Pickford could've gone direct, playing long to Toney to either hold it up or flick it on to Watkins.

[SP]

Had to laugh at the Falklands bedsheet, another FIFA suspended suspension incoming.

[bencher]

And an interesting post on Twitter:


"Guillem, I can't help repeating something I've told you before: England can never truly function as a team because they don't understand the word "solidarity" or the concept of collective football.

They always freeze when the decisive moment comes. They go out of every major tournament (World Cup or Euros) in the same way: not just losing, but making a mess of it. They always freeze when the decisive moment comes.

There's a historical pattern. At some point in the game they abandon each other. Every player starts looking after himself, trying to save his own skin.

Today they left the goalkeeper completely exposed. They all disappeared from the game, almost as if they were trying to avoid being singled out.

Can you say who was at fault for the goals? Exactly. The best thing for them is that no individual gets blamed. Collectively, they were responsible.

Everyone goes home relieved that it won't all fall on John or James. That it will all fall on Tuchel.

Meanwhile, Messi can hardly run, yet he spent the entire second half happily playing on the edge of the box. Enzo, too, kept finding space to shoot from the edge of the area — his trademark — until one finally went in.

An absolute disaster."

This is a bizarre take. They didn't lack for solidarity or togetherness, if anything they relied on that far too much rather than basic footballing of trying to have the ball and take the game to the opposition and try to score a goal.

[bog]

Why invite a team to come at you when that team has Messi in their ranks? Then he sets up both their goals. And when you have to defend a corner and you have everyone back why is there never a player on the edge of the penalty area closing down a player as he goes to shoot? For their equaliser the player had time to settle on the ball, send a text, take aim and blast home. Wonderful. 

     

[demeant0r]

The thing about the changes was it was either going to work or not. If the changes worked and England won 1-0 everyone would all be say what a tactical masterclass by Tuchel. But I do agree, you probably shouldn't be inviting pressure when their team has Messi.

[Mr White]

A suicide in slow motion.
[/quote

perfect description 👏

[bencher]

The thing about the changes was it was either going to work or not. If the changes worked and England won 1-0 everyone would all be say what a tactical masterclass by Tuchel. But I do agree, you probably shouldn't be inviting pressure when their team has Messi.

The Dan Burn substitution was an act of someone that had started to believe their own press coverage. It made sense against Mexico, down to 10 men, backs against the wall. It had no logic in a game where we needed to try to grab back the initiative and stop the ball getting to Messi.

[alfie]

Gordon and Spence were the only ones taking them on, taking off Gordon left us with nothing, I would have replaced him with Rashford who would have run at them, we gave them nothing to think about, there was very little defending for them to do. Of course TT will be getting slaughtered, but I think he was trying not to lose the game rather than making sure they won.

It doesn't matter now it's all over.

[The Cravenette]

It seemed like TT thought because the defensive subs worked in previous games, they would work here. Everyone could see there was no outlet once Gordon went off. Rashford should have come on earlier, allowing us to run at them more.

Both their CBs were on yellow cards and yet we never ran at them.

There was a bench full of fresh(er) players who were not used or not until it was too late. I'm not sure what Mainoo has done to upset TT but he would have been perfect to bring on for a tiring Rice to help retain the ball.

Anyway, a missed opportunity for sure. I don't believe TT should be sacked but he does need to learn from this.

[Andrew]

It seems by and large we are agreed except for whether TT should stay.

IMO it is obvious to me he should already have been 'let go.' |The squad selection and last night's tactics after going one up were both unforgivable. when alf took off Charlton in 1970 it was obvious Germany were being handed the imitative which they grasped and last night replacing Gordon with a defender was the same, the result was inevitable against a good team like Argentina. TT needs to go just like Alf should have gone in 1970.. Then we kept him and his lack of tactical awareness did irreparable damage that I don't think we have yet to fully recover from, with years of poor management and bizarre management failures.... if TT stays the same is about to happen agaiun, history repeats itself, in the end the FA are useless and are the ones for appointing the wrong man and now seemingly allowing him to stay.

But if TT had any integrity he would walk away and I for one would not miss him.

[Southcoastffc]

Gordon and Spence were the only ones taking them on, taking off Gordon left us with nothing, I would have replaced him with Rashford who would have run at them, we gave them nothing to think about, there was very little defending for them to do. Of course TT will be getting slaughtered, but I think he was trying not to lose the game rather than making sure they won.

It doesn't matter now it's all over.

After 60 years, it's still true.   "They think it's all over.....it is now."